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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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07/06/2010 9:26 pm  

It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura. This is why we always use the sign of silence right after the sign of the enterer in all banishing rituals alike.

I don't quite understand the purpose of using the sign of silence in liber resh after we greet the sun. Wouldn't we actually want absorb whatever energies we just addressed during this practice?


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mika
 mika
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07/06/2010 10:21 pm  
"[V"] wrote:
It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura.

Where did you learn that? It's superstitious nonsense.


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 Anonymous
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07/06/2010 10:39 pm  

The Sign of SIlence is performed after the the sign of the enterer in all cases, this is because when you perform the sign of the enterer, you are sending out a ray from yourself, perfroming the sign of silence prevents the dissipation of the ray. Or thus goes my understanding of these signs, which should be studied in the Neophyte ritual of the Golden Dawn and other places. But the one sign must follow the other in all cases.
The way our friend here may have worded it may be mislead, but we cannot write the gestures of ceremonial magick off so easily as superstitious nonsense. Each symbolic act performed by the ceremonial magician represents a Willed act.


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 Anonymous
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07/06/2010 10:58 pm  

But I would further refer you to the first few lines of Liber O.


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mika
 mika
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07/06/2010 10:59 pm  
"AEternitas" wrote:
The way our friend here may have worded it may be mislead, but we cannot write the gestures of ceremonial magick off so easily as superstitious nonsense. Each symbolic act performed by the ceremonial magician represents a Willed act.

The gestures may or may not be superstitious nonsense. Yes, there are reasons to perform particular symbolic acts. However, the belief that a particular gesture "prevents energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura" is, indeed, superstitious, by definition.

Superstitious: "a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief."

If you disagree, then show me the scientific studies that demonstrate:
1. the physical existence of these so-called "energy currents",
2. the physical existence of auras, and
3. the causal relationship between a particular gesture and its effects on the interaction between these energy currents and auras.

"Symbolic acts" are labelled "symbolic" for a reason. They generally don't manifest changes in the physical world, and when they do, those effects result from how the mind is altered, not from the symbolic act itself.

For example, do you think there's a difference in effect if you perform the sign of silence with one finger or two fingers? What about if you perform it with the left hand instead of right hand? What if someone is missing some fingers and performs it with a thumb instead of forefinger, or even just does it in their head? Do you really believe their aura would be at risk, or that their "ray" would be adversely dissipated?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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07/06/2010 11:39 pm  

If you disagree, then show me the scientific studies that demonstrate:
1. the physical existence of these so-called "energy currents",
2. the physical existence of auras, and
3. the causal relationship between a particular gesture and its effects on the interaction between these energy currents and auras.

lol, these are not even physical concepts...
so no.

I understand why we use the silence sign after the sign of the enterer. Perhaps we word it differently, but I understand why I do it.

I just can't seem to grasp why its done in liber Resh.


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 Anonymous
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08/06/2010 12:18 am  

"For example, do you think there's a difference in effect if you perform the sign of silence with one finger or two fingers? What about if you perform it with the left hand instead of right hand? What if someone is missing some fingers and performs it with a thumb instead of forefinger, or even just does it in their head? Do you really believe their aura would be at risk, or that their "ray" would be adversely dissipated?"

Yes and no. Performing the ritual with the left or right hands would have different symbolic meaning, as would perfroming it with the thumb rather than the finger. Of course these matters only carry weight if the magician performing them understood these symbolic acts and performed them with willed intention. If a learned magician were to intentionally not perform the sign of silence following the sign of the enterer, she would be intentionally inviting either a complete failure of the ritual at hand or perhaps some sort of trouble. Perhaps you, with all your wisdom regarding scientific techniques would like to experiement here and let us know you results Mika. Personally I doubt that the inexperienced magician could bring themselves much harm, nor do I believe that their "aura" however that may be defined, stands to suffer much from it.
So far as your defining it as superstitious nonesense, according to the definition above, I doubt this idea is a very widely held belief, more of a misconception of metaphysical concepts and ideas.
So far as the rest of your tired objections and questions go, I don't much care to get in to it. Maybe you could take it to another thread.


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 Anonymous
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08/06/2010 12:23 am  

The SIgn oof Silence is in itself a form of prayer. Much like saying "Amen."


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sonofthestar
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08/06/2010 3:13 am  

93!

You might want to consider that when doing Resh,
one becomes one with/as...
The Hawk-Headed-Lord of Silence & of Strength.
The singular pronouncements are uttered; then...
Regally Given, is the seal of thy central sun-self:
Crowned and Conquering; bastion of Light! Life! Love! and Liberty!
Think of yourself as Priest of the Princes,
imbued with the life of thy Holy Father The Sun.
That even in that most secret sanctum of you inner silence,
the outward thrust of Your Will is made pure and perfect,
as a blessing unto Earth.

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
08/06/2010 4:26 am  
"mika" wrote:
"[V"] wrote:
It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura.

Where did you learn that? It's superstitious nonsense.

Ever an erudite beacon of grace and savoir-faire, Mika. He would have "learned that superstitious nonsense" the same place where Crowley learned it (hence his own recommendations along this line)- in the Golden Dawn material, where the "Sign of the Enterer" (Horus) and its reflex, the "Sign of Silence" (HPK) were first presented.

You won't find "physical evidence" for any of the stuff involved, because we're not talking about physical stuff, but magickal ritual, which is about intent and its expression/projection into the subjective/objective cosmos (which is only partly, and apparently, "physical"). (What was said recently about confusing the planes...).


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 Anonymous
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08/06/2010 4:54 am  

Dear [V],

From my own practise, one understanding which I have of the purpose of this gesture, in context, is as sonofthestar has said above. It is an invocation of the stellar consciousness by means of the four gates, ie. "a secret door" into each of the Houses of the deities with whom one identifies during the ritual. It is a salutation but also an invocation, ie. identification with, the god-form. And as such, the Sign of Silence seals the sacrament within one's subjective sphere - a different function perhaps to the way in which the sign is used in the other places you mention. But to me, there's certainly a direct association between the fact of the deeper stellar consciousness (HPK as the Silent Self, Babe on the Lotus, of the Abyss, etc.) implied by solar consciousness (Horus in his active or apparent form as Ra-Hoor Khuit, and his daily stations) in the instruction to perform this Sign.

But as with all this stuff the proof is in the eating - if you perform this ritual as given, four times at the appointed time, by hook or by crook, every day for a whole solar season (ie. three months) you'll certainly get an idea of the purpose of each component by the end.

best regards
N


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mika
 mika
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08/06/2010 9:47 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
You won't find "physical evidence" for any of the stuff involved, because we're not talking about physical stuff,

You may not be, but the person who started this thread clearly was when s/he wrote:
[quote="[V"]"]It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura.

If that person was not referring to physical stuff when they used the words "energy currents" and "deeper layers of our aura", they are free to clarify. As the question was written, it fits exactly within the "supernatural causation" dictionary definition of superstitious (quoted in my post above).

""AEternitas" wrote:
If a learned magician were to intentionally not perform the sign of silence following the sign of the enterer, she would be intentionally inviting either a complete failure of the ritual at hand or perhaps some sort of trouble.

Or, neither of the above.

Symbolic gestures are just like elemental weapons, ceremonial circles, diagrams, robes, colors, etc - they are learning tools, they are methods of triggering particular mental states or gaining some specific understanding. Once the magician fully learns the lessons of the ritual, that awareness can be achieved without the symbolic triggers. The gestures, magical tools and even words become completely unnecessary. Belief that discarding these things will lead to "either a complete failure of the ritual at hand or perhaps some sort of trouble" is indeed superstitious nonsense. Maybe if/when you become "a learned magician", you will understand this.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
08/06/2010 10:54 pm  

Your view is uninteresting and indicates that you lack any anctual experience with ceremonial magick and its effects. You theorize constantly but your theories don't reflect the experiences of serious practitioners of the art magical.

On another note.

"Explain this happening!" }
"It must have a 'natural' cause." } }Let
"It must have a 'supernatural' cause." }
these two asses be set to grind corn.
May, might, must, should, probably, may be, we
may safely assume, ought, it is hardly questionable,
almost certainly-poor hacks! Let them be
turned out to grass!
Proof is only possible in mathematics, and mathematics
is only a matter of arbitrary conventions.
And yet doubt is a good servant but a bad master; a
a perfect mistress but a nagging wife.
"White is white" is the lash of the overseer; "white
is black" is the watchword of the slave. The Master
takes no heed.
The Chinese cannot help thinking that the octave has
5 notes.
The more necessary anything appears to my mind,
the more certain it is that I only assert a limitation.
I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on
awakening; I drank and danced all night with Doubt,
and found her a virgin in the morning.


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mika
 mika
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08/06/2010 11:09 pm  
"AEternitas" wrote:
Your view is uninteresting

As evidenced by your consistent responses to my posts.

"AEternitas" wrote:
You theorize constantly

No, I don't. I share information learned through personal experience.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
09/06/2010 2:03 am  
"mika" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
You won't find "physical evidence" for any of the stuff involved, because we're not talking about physical stuff,

You may not be, but the person who started this thread clearly was when s/he wrote:

"[V"] wrote:
It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura.

If that person was not referring to physical stuff when they used the words "energy currents" and "deeper layers of our aura", they are free to clarify. As the question was written, it fits exactly within the "supernatural causation" dictionary definition of superstitious (quoted in my post above).

Actually, they don't need to do anything of the sort, except for people who are too arrogant or dense to meet them half way in discerning their meaning. Despite the obvious fact that by "energy" is not meant a materialistic-scientistic definition (which btw is not the only one in the dictionary, if you have one, get one, and look it up! V was speaking normal English, not scientistic jargon which you appear to want reduce everything to), but the idea of "subtle energy" (/quality/influence/vitality/force) as is so often used in occultism, especially by Crowley, not that you appear to have ever read any of his books, or done any of the work which they describe, judging from your ignorance of this basic and rather traditional use of the word "energy" in an occult context, and your complete inability to be actually helpful instead of merely condescending towards someone who was asking a reasonable question.

"mika" wrote:
Maybe if/when (I) become "a learned magician", (I) will understand this.

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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
09/06/2010 2:53 am  

The letter M is the only letter in the English Alphabet that ends with the mouth closed. It is also the 13th letter. Gematria.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
09/06/2010 3:06 am  

93,

IMO,

Consider the ideas of extension and contraction, how they are related to the Signs.
Consider the Law of the Sphinx.
Consider the center of the Circle or Universe.
Consider the Rending of the Veil.

93 93/93


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Q789
 Q789
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09/06/2010 11:20 am  

Superstitious rubbish? what are you doing here?

IMO the act cuts the aura off from interaction with any other astral thing - it seals the aura.


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 Anonymous
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09/06/2010 11:38 am  

You could do it to tell your subconscious to stay quiet! Do not worry about the invisible demons! You are their master.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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09/06/2010 9:10 pm  

Thanks everyone for your input!
I have a much better understanding of this now =]


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mika
 mika
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09/06/2010 9:39 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
"mika" wrote:
If that person was not referring to physical stuff when they used the words "energy currents" and "deeper layers of our aura", they are free to clarify.

Actually, they don't need to do anything of the sort, except for people who are too arrogant or dense to meet them half way in discerning their meaning.

So, you think you can discern someone's intended meaning more accurately than if that person themself explains what they actually mean? Now *that* is arrogant.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
10/06/2010 1:56 am  
"mika" wrote:
So, you think you can discern someone's intended meaning more accurately than if that person themself explains what they actually mean?

V did explain "what they actually meant", in plain English, in their opening question. And unlike you, I did in fact discern their intended meaning, I think- rather than scoff and impose unintended meanings so as to play a word-game with the intention of belittling them, like you did. You didn't ask for clarification, or for an explanation, you simply scoffed at the question. So not only didn't you understand the question, you didn't want to. Apparently.

"mika" wrote:
Now *that* is arrogant.

Innit. 😀


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Los
 Los
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10/06/2010 4:38 am  

The sign of silence signifies the quieting of the conscious mind so that it will not interfere with the True Will.

In Resh, the sun is a symbol of the practitioner's true self, the Khabs. We identify ourselves with the physical sun -- in its (relatively) stable nature beyond the illusions of change created by the rotating planet -- to symbolize the way that we each should be identifying with our individual true self (which is [relatively] stable beyond the illusions created by the constant motion of the mind).

The sign of silence at the end reinforces the need for the mind to shut up and get out of the way.

That's pretty much it. Any talk about "auras" and "energies" is at best metaphorical and at worst complete and utter superstitious nonsense.


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 Anonymous
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10/06/2010 6:05 am  
"Los" wrote:
Any talk about "auras" and "energies" is at best metaphorical and at worst complete and utter superstitious nonsense.

So much for Aleister Crowley's talk of auras and energies, then.

All talk is metaphorical, Los. I mean that quite literally.


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Los
 Los
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10/06/2010 6:38 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
All talk is metaphorical, Los. I mean that quite literally.

Yes, language itself is a kind of metaphor writ large.

But within that grand metaphor, there are parts that we designate as literal (example: "A train is coming! Get out of the way!") and metaphorical (example: "Performing Liber Resh invokes the energy of the sun").


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 Anonymous
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10/06/2010 7:49 am  

That depends whether you mean "energy" in the way physicists mean it, in the way actors mean it, in the way poets mean it, in the way occultists mean it, in the way artists mean it, in the way psychologists mean it, etc. etc.

In my little blue dictionary, the "scientific" sense is secondary. The obsession with pretending that scientism and materialism are the only possible definition or sense in which meaning can be truly meant is not only incorrect and unnecessary, it's unattractive as well.


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 Anonymous
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10/06/2010 7:56 am  

Even the scientific meaning of energy is "the capacity to do work". Given that the nature of invocation itself is to increase the capacity of the operator in a specific direction and thus "enable them to do work", using the term "energy" seems perfectly okay to me.


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mika
 mika
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10/06/2010 9:06 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Even the scientific meaning of energy is "the capacity to do work". Given that the nature of invocation itself is to increase the capacity of the operator in a specific direction and thus "enable them to do work", using the term "energy" seems perfectly okay to me.

Even if one accepts that, given that context, using the term "energy" is perfectly okay, the belief that performing (or not) a symbolic gesture will protect, enhance, disrupt or endanger that "energy" is superstition. Invocation does not require that one perform the sign of silence, for example, in order to successfully "increase the capacity of the operator in a specific direction". There are countless symbolic acts one can do in order to perform a successful invocation, or it can be a success without any ritual actions at all.

As I already posted, "symbolic acts" are labelled "symbolic" for a reason. They generally don't manifest changes in the physical world, and when they do, those effects result from how the mind is altered, not from the symbolic act itself. Talk about energy, auras, subtle fields, etc all you want - metaphor is very useful when discussing magick in theory and practice. However, once you start down the path of confusing symbolism and metaphor with actual physical cause and effect, you are indeed indulging in superstitious nonsense. The original statement that "It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura" was no different than believing that if someone doesn't say "bless you" after you sneeze, a demon will enter your body.


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 Anonymous
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11/06/2010 11:14 am  
"mika" wrote:
Even if one accepts that, given that context, using the term "energy" is perfectly okay, the belief that performing (or not) a symbolic gesture will protect, enhance, disrupt or endanger that "energy" is superstition.

Superstition? it might perhaps be more helpfully and accurately considered a convention within a specific grammar engaged with as a symbolic handle upon specific objective "forces" or "energies" or "qualities" -all words Crowley uses in this context-, for the purpose of "protecting, enhancing, disrupting or endangering" the "energy" concerned.

Invocation does not require that one perform the sign of silence, for example, in order to successfully "increase the capacity of the operator in a specific direction".

Um, The Sign of Silence is itself an invocation, of Harpocrates.

There are countless symbolic acts one can do in order to perform a successful invocation, or it can be a success without any ritual actions at all.

In the same way that the verbal syllables which we communicate to eachother and ourselves using the letters "unhelpful and condescending" can mean different things in different languages, yes, I suppose they can. But V was asking about just one specific gesture, in the context of one very specific ritual, composed using one specific symbolic grammar, as part of just one specific symbolic tradition / system of gestural conventions -- the one written and endorsed by Aleister Crowley. Next time they want a totally useless put-down as their first response, they'll know where to go. If they wanted a generalised discussion of meta-theories, they would be asking a question on the Peter Carroll Society website. Oh wait, there isn't one.

"mika" wrote:
As I already posted, "symbolic acts" are labelled "symbolic" for a reason. They generally don't manifest changes in the physical world, and when they do, those effects result from how the mind is altered, not from the symbolic act itself.

To quote you, "Where did you hear that? Sounds like superstitious nonsense." No mechanism has been demonstrated showing that said changes definitely occur "from how the mind is altered", that's just one model, a theoretical model, a conjecture, an hypothesis, and it's only one among many paradigms for paranormal effects each of which has its own pros and cons as a descriptive handle on observations of those who experience them. The state of consciousness may simply be a precondition for subsequent processes, for all we know, as opposed to THE mechanism by which effects occur. I incline towards this view.

However, once you start down the path of confusing symbolism and metaphor with actual physical cause and effect, you are indeed indulging in superstitious nonsense. The original statement that "It is my understanding that we use the sign of silence to prevent energy currents from being absorbed in our deeper layers of our aura" was no different than believing that if someone doesn't say "bless you" after you sneeze, a demon will enter your body.

Nein, nein, nein! You may not see the difference, but you appear to have a quite rigid and very procrustean way of how you like to see things, especially views which you may not understand, so let's consider it "collateral damage".


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