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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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11/01/2013 2:48 pm  

Is it a good idea to set up - say - a new category on this fine Forum called "Libri" which explicitly handles profund commentaries on Aleister Crowley's Liber this and Liber that. I don't know if this is a copyright problem, but the Libri themselves don't need to be 'published' here. They are available on the OTO site.

I know it's not a Magical Forum, but the Libri are much more than Magical Ritual Books as we all know very well. But many of us - at least myself 🙂 - have puzzled over many passages and wished there was a commentary available to each line.

And a lot of very enlightened comments on Libri are floating around here and many of them are very insight- and helpful, but they are scattered and almost impossible to find. Ok, there are threads on Libri, but they could be moved to a new section, if that is the will of the management 😉

I just feel many a Crowley interested person would reap a lot of benefit by comments on here, of course cum grano salis, but that applies to other commentaries on the web, too.

I THINK Thelema is about yourself in relation to space, and about your HGA, but many many comments by Shiva and other people here have inspired me over the years and others too probably.

So, do you think this is a good idea or just another fancy by a 'newbie' who is in fact very old? 😉


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 2:51 pm  

sorry double post


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 3:01 pm  

I personally don't think there is any 'common red line' in those discussions, after all, they tend to be quite personal commentaries even though the discussion in the thread itself might be fruitful.

But I wish sage Vyasa's wisdom for anyone who feels like it is his job to classify the posts here to be a somewhat coherent system.


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Azidonis
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11/01/2013 7:44 pm  
"ayino" wrote:
But I wish sage Vyasa's wisdom for anyone who feels like it is his job to classify the posts here to be a somewhat coherent system.

Amen to that!

Also remember that this current version of lashtal.com is "new". Not all of the old forum material migrated to the new servers, or through the updates. Therefore, there are many years worth of material that are not accessible to the public. (I'm certain that moderation could provide a much more detailed explanation of this than I.)

I don't think a Libers forum is essentially a good idea. Many threads pop up over time though, focusing on various libers or aspects of them, and those can be nice threads in their own right.


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 8:01 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I don't think a Libers forum is essentially a good idea. Many threads pop up over time though, focusing on various libers or aspects of them, and those can be nice threads in their own right.

Well one can't have it all I guess 😉
Would've been nice though 🙂


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Azidonis
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11/01/2013 8:08 pm  
"Thurdan" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I don't think a Libers forum is essentially a good idea. Many threads pop up over time though, focusing on various libers or aspects of them, and those can be nice threads in their own right.

Well one can't have it all I guess 😉
Would've been nice though 🙂

If you think it's really necessary, continue to build your case for it in this thread. Perhaps a discussion will break out that results in such a forum.

I recall suggesting the Scarlet Women forum many years ago, and it went through without a hitch.

So it's possible, but always up to Paul/lashtal (Owner and Moderator).


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 8:23 pm  

Thank you 🙂

But I realize someone has to comment the Libers.

And that's an awful lot of work I think noone at the moment has time to do...I guess as there's not a lot of people volunteering to do it on this thread right now....

Well was a nice idea. Maybe some other time in another world who knows 🙂


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Azidonis
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11/01/2013 8:45 pm  
"Thurdan" wrote:
Thank you 🙂

But I realize someone has to comment the Libers.

And that's an awful lot of work I think noone at the moment has time to do...I guess as there's not a lot of people volunteering to do it on this thread right now....

Well was a nice idea. Maybe some other time in another world who knows 🙂

I can comment on libers all day long. I can go line for line, with every single liber, and write a commentary.

Question is, what would it do for you?

Does Thelema not implore you to develop your own commentary, regardless of what mine might say?

Isn't the very process of Living one's Life the constant creation and fulfillment of some understanding of one's own commentary on the situation of Living?

Isn't Change Stability, wherein every commentary is completely uprooted and falsified as soon as it is written, like a sand mandala?

[flash=250,250:17kfsiql] http://www.youtube.com/v/KyqVDewZ2kU[/flash:17kfsiql]


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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11/01/2013 8:46 pm  
"Thurdan" wrote:
But I realize someone has to comment the Libers.

Nobody has to do any such thing.
The meaning of any given Liber is no more than the meaning assigned to it by any given reader.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 8:48 pm  

This is assuming that people want the Libers commented on for them?
Aren't the real secrets incommunicable and that the answers come after long meditation, study and initiation?
Maybe this is too purest a stance?
Crowley would say - "mystery is the enemy of truth."
Why all the mystery then?


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 9:11 pm  
"morphon" wrote:
This is assuming that people want the Libers commented on for them?
Aren't the real secrets incommunicable and that the answers come after long meditation, study and initiation?
Maybe this is too purest a stance?
Crowley would say - "mystery is the enemy of truth."
Why all the mystery then?

When commenting texts with such rich and deep symbolism, some symbols may have totally different inherent meaning depending on how familiar one has come with that symbol in question.
If I give out my own example, some cards of the Taro have become very dear to me and their scenery has lived with me vivid for few years now. My old understanding of symbolism of cards like ATU XVII "The Tower" have been totally rearranged so to speak and not in a way that my old understanding of it was anyhow inferior, but rather I feel, that have I learned more about it through various experience which I have attributed to it and feel that I learned some of it's lessons.

Some of the things are not mystery for the sake of mystery, but there simply is no any intelligent way to communicate those realizations.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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11/01/2013 9:23 pm  

"AND SO, EVERY MORNING those fellows would come and read the Upanishads, Panchadasi, Nyshkarmya Siddhi, the commentaries, the commentaries on commentaries, the whole lot, from four o'clock to six o'clock, and this little boy of five, six or seven years - I don't know - had to listen to all that crap."
- UG Krishamurti

😀[/align:146irkcq]


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 9:50 pm  

I LOL'd very hard about that quote, Shiva ! 😀

"Azidonis" wrote:
Question is, what would it do for you?
Does Thelema not implore you to develop your own commentary, regardless of what mine might say?

I realize you and these other nice people above this my comment have a very strong point here!

I see it's what the meaning does with you.

Tell you what, should I have any question and "not getting" some lines although thinking hard very long I'll post a question on this forum.

Ok? 🙂


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 Anonymous
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11/01/2013 10:40 pm  
"ayino" wrote:
If I give out my own example, some cards of the Taro have become very dear to me and their scenery has lived with me vivid for few years now. My old understanding of symbolism of cards like ATU XVII "The Tower" have been totally rearranged so to speak and not in a way that my old understanding of it was anyhow inferior, but rather I feel, that have I learned more about it through various experience which I have attributed to it and feel that I learned some of it's lessons.

Some of the things are not mystery for the sake of mystery, but there simply is no any intelligent way to communicate those realizations.

I read a book by Gareth Knight in which he advocates to actually PROJECT into the Tarot...I understand it's a Golden Dawn Method used by Dion Fortune and SOL, too....have you ever done that?
Sorry to ask 🙂 Ok, a Thelemite is never sorry, but we may say that for conventional purposes I gather 😀
I understand it's the basis for Roger Zelazny's book, "Nine Princes in Amber", too (a bit of a wisecrack, aint's I, sor....not sorry) 🙂


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 Anonymous
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14/01/2013 3:45 am  

I don't think "somebody" has to provide their comments.  I think that everybody has to provide their comments.

One person being the one who comments (or worse, being somehow officially authorized to comment) would be pretty well useless (or a "center of pestilence" if you like).
On the other hand, if everyone is sharing their opinions at an equal level about what they think the libri are about, that can be a useful thing.

But more importantly, this being the Aleister Crowley society and not a Thelemic Mysticism project, it would be more interesting to analyze the libri from the point of view of looking at what symbols might mean not in terms of Joe Magus' personal interpretation of them, but a historical/philosophical interpretation, i.e. "line x is possibly a reference to the philosophus ritual of the G.'.D.'./ symbol y is something that comes from this obscure source in greek mythology/ when Crowley wrote/received libri z he was in this place, and these things were happening to him, and I think this might have affected his reception of the libri in such-and-such a way".

93!


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belmurru
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14/01/2013 8:36 am  
"Swamiji" wrote:
But more importantly, this being the Aleister Crowley society and not a Thelemic Mysticism project, it would be more interesting to analyze the libri from the point of view of looking at what symbols might mean not in terms of Joe Magus' personal interpretation of them, but a historical/philosophical interpretation, i.e. "line x is possibly a reference to the philosophus ritual of the G.'.D.'./ symbol y is something that comes from this obscure source in greek mythology/ when Crowley wrote/received libri z he was in this place, and these things were happening to him, and I think this might have affected his reception of the libri in such-and-such a way".

93!

I agree with this. I was going to put my discussion of the songs in the 2nd Aethyr (and the "Infernal Adorations Of OAI") in the section about Crowley's writings. The historical and biographical context is crucial. Anyone who wants to take away mystical insight or practical magickal advice, can do so.


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jamie barter
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15/01/2013 12:58 pm  

I am in complete alignment with Thurdan’s suggestion of a forum concentrating upon our collective musings, deliberations, interpretations and research (not necessarily “commentaries” as such, noting Shiva’s amusing Reply #11) on the meanings of Libri – as a matter of fact in an earlier Æon I did make this sort of suggestion myself, beginning with the handwritten third Chapter of one Liber in particular with which I am sure we are all familiar… No one would be forcing anyone to take part or even read it.

COTO via Weiser did bring out a pretty excellent “Commentaries on the Holy Books [of Thelema]” in 1996, which has proved very useful in itself - although there are many unavoidable holes by omission in it - that could be used as a template (as far as those pesky copyright restrictions allow, of course).  Apart from any light-bulb moments or epiphanies from individuals reacting to and/or interpreting the meaning/s of a given passage (to which, as I need to keep emphasising, no one person’s opinions over and above Therion’s would or should take precedence) it would be of great benefit in supplying further data on e.g., unfamiliar terms from classical mythology, etymology of significant key words and phrases, previous allusions of usage followed by useful cross-referencing other libri or relevant texts & all manner of “annotations”, etc. 

Hey – here’s an idea, maybe we could even talismanically call it the centre of pestilence as an ironic gesture The Great Beast 666 might probably have appreciated?!

Exceed, exceed & strive ever to more, 
Norma N. Joy Conquest. 


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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17/01/2013 9:38 am  

Jamie,

93

"Centre of Pestilence" was used as a name for Holy Books of Thelema study group that I had a priviledge to run at O.T.O. AMeTh Lodge in London between 2010 and 2011.

It's not that ironic if you take under consideration words from the 16th Æthyr of "The Vision and the Voice":

Like locusts shall they gather themselves together, the servants of the Star and of the Snake, and they shall eat up everything that is upon the earth. For why? Because the Lord of Righteousness delighted in them. 

Best wishes,
93 93/93
Krzysztof


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jamie barter
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17/01/2013 5:48 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
I don't think "somebody" has to provide their comments.  I think that everybody has to provide their comments.

One person being the one who comments (or worse, being somehow officially authorized to comment) would be pretty well useless (or a "center of pestilence" if you like).
On the other hand, if everyone is sharing their opinions at an equal level about what they think the libri are about, that can be a useful thing.

But more importantly, this being the Aleister Crowley society and not a Thelemic Mysticism project, it would be more interesting to analyze the libri from the point of view of looking at what symbols might mean not in terms of Joe Magus' personal interpretation of them, but a historical/philosophical interpretation, i.e. "line x is possibly a reference to the philosophus ritual of the G.'.D.'./ symbol y is something that comes from this obscure source in greek mythology/ when Crowley wrote/received libri z he was in this place, and these things were happening to him, and I think this might have affected his reception of the libri in such-and-such a way".

93!

Yes, I completely agree with all of your points made here Swami, with an exception maybe for the implied allusion of compulsion (that everyone might have to provide their comments), which is of course only a semantic deviation; and also the negative slant placed upon the word “pestilence”, which I have myself given a more positive definition for before in Reply #58 from my “Introduction”:

At this point, let's define pestilence and analyze its meaning.  According to the OED it refers to "...bearing contagion [e.g., what I see as the infection and transmission of ideas]; mischievousness...that which can be fatal or injurious to religion, morals, public peace or well-being [of which I interpret the last four phrases as being in their unbalanced and/or qliphotic forms: "institutionalised worship", "the veiling of vice/ virtue", "stagnation/ entropy" and "complacency", which is then when corrective action should and needs to occur.]

Hello Krzysztof, hail & 93.  Thank you for your comments, which provide additional food for thought.  I see that you used to run a study group at the Caliphornian “OTO” London AMeTh Lodge.  Would this also mean you might run/ have run the same, in which case I suppose you would be in a way a sort of “descendant” of mine, as I did the same when it was an Oasis [=mini-Lodge, for those few who may not be in the know] for 6 years from 1987 to 1993, whereupon I resigned together with the Secretary (who resigned just before) and Treasurer (who was going to resign as well – I’m not sure if he actually did in the end but in any case he passed on, as I remarked previously, from a most unfortunate accident/ misadventure for which there is an obituary in the quarterly COTO The Magical Link from 1994, I think, as I don’t have my copy to hand) for various reasons (the ‘politics’ of which will not concern a wider readership; or if it does that ancient alchemical formula “m.y.o.b.” applies at the present time), leaving a vacuum behind.  I  must obviously have been such a controversial figure as ‘master’ of BeNu that all my modest contributions and innovatory suggestions were charmingly and quite literally erased from the record in almost Orwellian fashion, in the form of a tabula rasa or “blank canvas/ clean slate” under which no mention was ever made of that terrible time & I think mine and Gerald’s outspokenness and habit of asking awkward questions also rather tended to make us personae non grata within the organization.

There is no law beyond…
N. Joy


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 Anonymous
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18/01/2013 4:09 pm  

Jamie,

93

Thank you for your response.
I have no idea what your last paragraph has to do with discussed topic. I mentioned AMeTh just because the study group was organised under its umbrella and I believe that at some stage results of our research will be published by the lodge. 

Best wishes,
93 93/93
Krzysztof


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jamie barter
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18/01/2013 5:12 pm  

It has probably not a great deal in retrospect, Krzysztof.  I just found myself suddenly getting a bit carried away on a small ripple of nostalgia (? don't know why!) prompted by your mention of a study group.  I look forward to maybe reading your research one day and did not mean to meander! – shall we now go back on thread?

Bon chance & with standard Thelemic salutations,
N. Joy

PS  Apologies to Swamiji for mistyping hir name.


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manofwycombe
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19/01/2013 8:34 pm  

93
Following on from James' comment about Bennu being "erased from the record" I can assure him that this is not the case. In fact I suspect the problem is more that there has been so little written about the history of Thelemic groups in the UK in the second half of the twentieth century. Some years ago the American OTO  magazine Behutet did print a series of "history" articles and  issue 36 included a piece about the re-establishment of OTO in Great Britain. Describing the growth of a number of new bodies in Spring 1988, it mentioned - "Bennu Bird Encampment let by Br Oroboros in North Lodon which planned to emphasise traditional and original ritual marick and allied psychotherapeutic workings in accordance with The Book of the Law to further the efficiency of the members to serve as vehicles for the 93 current to promulgate the Law of Thelema in the world."
Maybe we need some later-day Ellic Howe / Francis King / Martin Starr [delete according to personal preference :)] to write the history, whilst there are still a few of us around who remember "the old days"?
93                                          93/93
Clive


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Azidonis
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19/01/2013 9:02 pm  
"manofwycombe" wrote:
In fact I suspect the problem is more that there has been so little written about the history of Thelemic groups in the UK in the second half of the twentieth century.

Did he make his way into this book?


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jamie barter
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21/01/2013 5:09 pm  

Thank you for your comments in Reply #21, Clive/ manofwycombe (what, no high ho?!  Btw: please call me Jamie - or Joy on this website, or even “Norma” if you like).  I feel I must take full responsibility for any deviation involved & while not wishing to continue off-topic for any longer than necessary, please would everyone forbear (& hope you don’t mind, Thurdan!) to just let me add the following before others try and get it back on track if there is some more mileage to be had from further discussion…

I hadn’t come across Behutet magazine before, but now that you mentioned it I do recall this sort of ‘mission statement’ which I was asked to concoct and put together for the aims & objectives of the original London encampment (Bennu-Bird, as was, later the BeNu Oasis) from 1986-7.  My, it seems in another age completely, now!  But the sentiments were a genuine expression of intent at the time… 

However, I must disagree with your assurance that BeNu was not ‘erased from the record’ – as I mentioned, the successors (2 years later?) which had to take over the sudden vacuum left behind by the combined resignations of all three key officers (master, secretary & treasurer) of the London group chose a magical avatar name to signify their total disassociation with (any memories or connection with) the old regime & our thirty-nine workings over a six-year period (i.e.:“tabula rasa”)!

Not only that, but I spoke with active COTO members at the time who confirmed that “a veil” if not a veritable iron curtain, had been drawn across proceedings & that BeNu was regarded as if not quite an abomination & something which might be found on the sole of one’s shoe, then as if it’were not quite a fit subject to be brought up in polite conversation!  I remember one of the accusations against me/us – brought up right in the middle of the course of my IInd degree initiation, if you please! - was that the group was charged with the heinous crime of “practising the debased cult of Crowleyanity” (simply because the first 3 meetings, on 12th August, 12th October & 1st December 1987 coincided with the First Night, birth and death of the Prophet, the occasions of which I chose to commemorate as a one-off in strict accordance with the precepts of Liber AL II. 78 & 79).  That was a good one!

Oh god, now you’ve got me started, where on earth will it stop?!  The Gnostic Mass public (hall) performance publicity scandal? The identity of “mr. non-existent”, the would-be extraterrestrial/ fugitive from M.I.5.? The “sleep with me for your spiritual advancement” (not to mention degree fast-track) alleged enticements of another leader? The News of the World “teacher at top public school is black magic weirdo” sting operation? The “my initiator sexually harassed me in temple by tweaking my nipples” accusation? The.…*  Maybe, as you say,  a “historian” of these times would be a good idea; maybe not?!  There is certainly enough what Azidonis might call “dirty laundry, all the”, or skeletons in the closet, although whether the current COTO leadership would want them hanging on the washing line or rattling away in the present light of day is doubtful, given their customary desire for unnecessary secrecy wherever possible (as opposed to its reverse).
[* (Etc.) One from the foregoing list is to my knowledge a false statement – everyone reading this apart from Clive, using your powers of intuition, deduction or discrimination, can you guess which one might be the red herring?]

At the time, I think you will agree that in the COTO leadership and the internal structure no one actually wanted me to leave - although everyone used to hate the way I would always seem to support Gerald in his (valid) criticisms! - I was in so-called “good standing” and (after that first hiccup mentioned above) recognised as carrying out good magickal work in the Oasis.  However I had excellent reasons for leaving (which I clearly set out at the time) & duly departed, but was apparently never altogether forgiven for doing so!  (Particularly I imagine when ‘the company of heaven’ announced its proposal to bring out “The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O.” in a fully expanded, revised 2nd edition which was authorised by Francis King himself in the month before he died – however that is quite another different story even more off-topic!  I had curses & ridiculous magical attack made – pah for the course, but I’m still standing, eighteen years later.  What was it Israel Regardie said? “Magical attacks – schmagical attacks!  Bah, I’ve got no time for that kind of adolescent gripe-water”, or something like that - but again this is BTW, although possibly of interest to the historian as a sidebar).  What else is there? ...Maybe I should write a book on it?!

Possibly this might all be of benefit in some sort of a new thread, although I am unclear about the best form it could take at the present time as I hadn’t originally intended to bring any of it up.  Maybe the best thing which would generally help matters would be if COTO were to somehow maintain a more visible and approachable profile, perhaps by having a separate section on Lashtal similar to the Typhonian Order?  I cannot speak for him, but feel sure Paul with his customary broadmindedness & nonpartisanship must have extended a similar invitation to them in the past and would be amenable to such an idea, whereby certain questions and issues of relevance to the wider Thelemic community (e.g., use of copyright, etc.) could be aired and maybe dealt with to the satisfaction of all concerned?

Whistle down the wind,
N. Joy

P.S.  No, Azidonis, “he” (i.e., I, the cat’s mother) didn’t make my way into “that book”!


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jamie barter
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21/08/2013 4:20 pm  

I appreciate that it is a long time since this thread was active but thought those involved might be interested; even so Lashtal is not quite the site where I might wish to wash through my stained smalls or rattle away through the skeletons away in the Caliphornian’s closet, but I felt I should respond to what is a historical fallacy here. Also, the erroneous point already having been made, it would be nice to be able to exercise my democratic right to reply in kind, in the interests of sharing the ‘truth’ here & correcting any previous erroneous impression/s given.

In other words, I wouldn’t actively be seeking to enter into a sustained dialogue of perceived rights and wrongs, although wouldn’t be averse to doing so under different circumstance and possibly different mediums (as distinct from media).  As I agreed with manofwycombe’s wise words earlier -

"manofwycombe" wrote:
Following on from James' comment about Bennu being "erased from the record" I can assure him that this is not the case. In fact I suspect the problem is more that there has been so little written about the history of Thelemic groups in the UK in the second half of the twentieth century. ... Maybe we need some later-day Ellic Howe / Francis King / Martin Starr [delete according to personal preference :)] to write the history, whilst there are still a few of us around who remember "the old days"?

At some point a history will have to be written, although I’m not (possibly to the relief of some!) currently contemplating doing so & including it in my forthcoming book on the same subject (OTO), or at least not at the moment.

Because I did not – or seem to want to – “control” Gerald Suster, the Secretary of the BeNu (London) [“Caliphornian”] O.T.O. Oasis which I administrated, it was then closed!  This left me with no alternative but to resign, which I was then on the verge of doing anyway, following Gerald’s own initiative & after he had perceptively warned me in the manner of prophesy: “you’re never going to grow a good branch on what has become a rotten tree”.  What I was not expecting though, was that all references to it and its achievements such as they were over nearly six years to be expunged from the record in the thorough manner of Newspeak revisions in Nineteen Eighty Four (which incidentally seems to grow more relevant if anything with each passing year).

Just because no one else seemed to be able to handle him, it seemed to be expected of me by everybody else to do their dirty work for them and “rein him in”, in the words actually put to me (- it would take a rash individual who’d try to do this, though, since ultimately they might find themselves wound up with the leash around their own necks.)  And although the instance I am about to give was by no means an isolated example with the C.O.T.O. , frequently even people outside it seemed to presume I had some sort of means by way of which I could charm the savage beasty as ’twere & get me to intercede with him to behave in their eyes, or at least not quite so beastly or horrible, during the course of which such petitions I often found it difficult to avoid curling the side of my lip with contempt. 

And yet it is true that 93% of the time I never had the slightest problem with him personally!  (The one exception I will say, was when he overstayed his (rent free) welcome with me upon his return from a magical retirement in Cyprus by about eight to ten weeks, causing me some trouble and irksome interviews with my (by) then aggrieved landlady who would not accept my explanations & annoyingly retained my deposit in accordance with her belief that I was subletting.  But that’s by the by.)  The rest of the time, he was a pussy cat – or should I say more properly, a perfect gent if you kinew how to handle him.  The ‘trick’ was very simple: not to avoid answering what were initially quite unprobing questions on his part.  Despite fairly universal predictions to the contrary from some quarters among the nay-sayers, Gerald didn’t relish unnecessary confrontations as he saw them as time-wasting, and in arguments would unconditionally and unequivocally accept in answer “I don’t know”, which he always liked to tell people were “the three most honest words in the English language”.

I couldn’t help it if other fools didn’t quite know how to handle him; that wasn’t my problem despite it being made out to be and the Caliphornian O.T.O.’s presumption in their interfering in what were our private lives.  Unlike magical diaries, I do maintain scrupulous records of all correspondence and have, for illustrative example, a letter in front of me from one Brother Alverda, Head of the Caliphornian OTO UK at the time (possibly you might also remember him, man of Wycombe?) which states, and I quote from as follows (incidentally if anyone doubts my own veracity these (and more) exchanges can all be produced upon application):

Where you do seem to be under a misapprehension, is with regard to your friendship with Gerald.  OTO is not concerned with any member’s friendships – unless they impinge upon OTO matters.  You do not seem to appreciate how your failure to distance yourself as the head of an OTO body, from Gerald’s negativity towards the Order reflects on you.  For example to the best of my knowledge, you did not remove Gerald as Oasis Secretary even after his performance at last year’s Conway Hall meeting [don’t ask].  Similarly when Lon DuQuette was in London travelling as a SGIG, you were the local Oasis Master, Gerald was Oasis Secretary and Michaela [Gerald’s wife] was a member of the Oasis.  Despite Gerald and Michaela’s discourtesy you made no effort to control or apologise for their behaviour [again, don’t ask].  It is therefore hardly surprising that International HQ think that there is a lack of independence between you and Gerald.

(07-07-93 EV)[/align:3hmodq0v]

To which I replied,

You tell me “OTO” is “not concerned with any member’s friendships” – then berate me for not “controlling” the behaviour of Gerald and Michaela in a public house as if they were a couple of wayward children under my custody!  I rather think you are severely attempting to overreach your authority, and the implied authority of leaders of OTO bodies, if either you – or Grand Lodge – imagines that you have the right to interfere in the actions and private lives of members.  In temple, that is a different matter and different rules apply – we all know that.  But don’t allow yourself to fall into the same trap which befell [a previous leader].  Even he had to recognize in the end that the powers of “leaders” hold no such jurisdiction.

(08-07-93 EV)[/align:3hmodq0v]

Gerald himself wrote to me and had this to say:

Again I laughed over Slippery Sam’s [Gerald’s so-very-(not)-insulting ‘pet name’ for Alverda at the time] view of Gerald and Michaela as a ‘couple of wayward children under my custody!’  To set the record straight, we met Lon DuQuette at The Plough [public house] in the company of [Alverda] and had agreed to put him up for the night.  I was polite, for I owe Lon hospitality.  Michaela gave him a hard time with her magical questioning and Lon was so disconcerted that he declined our offer of free bed and breakfast.  Michaela’s questions were certainly hard; e.g. ‘So what’s the point of it all?’ asked in her abrasive manner, but one would have to be an elderly invalid to have found her insulting or even impolite.  I watched the scene with amusement.  Subsequently Slippery Sam accused me of rudeness to Lon.  I wrote to Lon and asked him for his views.  [copy of this letter now currently missing - jb].  He did not reply… I resigned from the Caliphate OTO for a number of reasons: (a) It was no longer Thelemic (b) It had lost the power to initiate genuinely, rather like the GD in the 1930s (c) It had become a complete waste of time, space, money and energy and there are better things to do magically (d) I was getting no pleasure out of evasive and fatuous correspondence (e) It had become irrelevant and (f) Since you are still interested and I am not, I thought that my resignation would be of benefit to you. 

(09-07-93 EV)[/align:3hmodq0v]

With regard to (f) just above, it was not particularly of benefit in the end as I also resigned shortly afterwards myself, since none of the ongoing issues were resolved or even addressed much to my satisfaction anyway [don’t ask, for a third time…]

Knowing the location of where all the bodies are buried, inspector (sovereign grand, general)!
N. Joy


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William Thirteen
(@williamthirteen)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 1090
21/08/2013 4:56 pm  

this brought to mind a bit of Joyce's 'Ulysses'

Anyhow in he rolled after his successful libation-CUM-potation, introducing an atmosphere of drink into the SOIREE, boisterously trolling, like a veritable son of a seacook:

--THE BISCUITS WAS AS HARD AS BRASS
AND THE BEEF AS SALT AS LOT'S WIFE'S ARSE.
O, JOHNNY LEVER!
JOHNNY LEVER, O!

After which effusion the redoubtable specimen duly arrived on the scene and regaining his seat he sank rather than sat heavily on the form provided. Skin-the-Goat, assuming he was he, evidently with an axe to grind, was airing his grievances in a forcible-feeble philippic anent the natural resources of Ireland or something of that sort which he described in his lengthy dissertation...


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
21/08/2013 5:23 pm  

Man that's deep!
N. Joy


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2014 4:04 am  

I have over a thousand texts in my possession. They not the leather bound kind ; they are all on my hardrive. I am a libri traditionalist but only a fool would say no to this gift from a friend and brother, who like myself has been obsessed bymagical and other occult literature for the best part of his life.

I have often pondered how I can share these texts and I am not too great with computers and hence creating web-sites. I am aware of hermetic.com and sacred texts.com but I certainly have materials not available there, for example all of Kenneth Grant's books, many Necronomicon related texts; interviews with Andrew  Chumbly and his works; all A.O.S works; manyfold Aleister Crowley works and so much more.

I realise there may be copyright issues;  have not got around that one yet.

...keep separate the planes


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
02/04/2014 10:27 am  

Yes, there are copyright issues, and no, there is no getting around it; nor should there be.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2014 12:13 pm  

I had an extensive library some years ago and the church burnt it down.

I warned them: that which is sealed is sealed for a reason.

I was later told that these pastors and youth leaders were running around that night with knives trying to kill each other.

I did warn them.

...keep separate the planes


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2077
02/04/2014 12:29 pm  

? I am lost here, have a stumbled into the Twilight Zone?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2014 12:59 pm  

Yes pardon me,

initially the thread concerned commentaries on Aleister Crowley's works. I just wish there was a way to share the txt libri.docs I came upon in a strange way for such or simillar purposes, but I went off track pertaining to the threads theme, topic. Sorry for that.

I do not mention such things or any magical related subjects in every day life, except for a brief word about the new Aeon where I can. I see this as a duty regardless of the reactions I get; though there have been no negative responses. I kept up with this forum for months before joining and verily just wish there was a way to share these txt.docs with like minded people.

...keep separate the planes


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2077
02/04/2014 2:38 pm  

What you are doing though is contravening the guidelines that you agreed to, once you became a member here.
Sharing copyrighted material is shunned, as per the Webmasters guidelines. 
Which can be read here. http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,404.0.html

Excerpt:

" Contributions that promote or appear to promote activities unlawful in either the UK or USA are specifically prohibited. Material – or links to material - breaching or appearing to breach copyright must not be submitted. Attempts to solicit the provision of such material or links to such material will result in robust moderation. "


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
02/04/2014 5:35 pm  
"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
I have over a thousand texts in my possession. They not the leather bound kind ; they are all on my hardrive. I am a libri traditionalist but only a fool would say no to this gift from a friend and brother, who like myself has been obsessed bymagical and other occult literature for the best part of his life.

I have often pondered how I can share these texts and I am not too great with computers and hence creating web-sites. I am aware of hermetic.com and sacred texts.com but I certainly have materials not available there, for example all of Kenneth Grant's books, many Necronomicon related texts; interviews with Andrew  Chumbly and his works; all A.O.S works; manyfold Aleister Crowley works and so much more.

I realise there may be copyright issues;  have not got around that one yet.

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
Yes pardon me,
initially the thread concerned commentaries on Aleister Crowley's works. I just wish there was a way to share the txt libri.docs [...] and verily just wish there was a way to share these txt.docs with like minded people.

The implication here is that the libri are not ones which would normally be available, as in the public domain?  A nice thought if perhaps insufficiently pragmatic, since copyright is indeed a thorny issue, however in the case of authors/ painters/ creators who are already deceased the overall touchiness seems a bit overdone sometimes to my way of thinking.  Though it’s true that in some estates, big buck$ are involved - like Presley (music), Monroe (film), Tolkien (books).  Not so much the occult, by virtue of its comparatively limited appeal to the masses, but its effects are noticeable all the same, and not least with regards to A.C.

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
I had an extensive library some years ago and the church burnt it down.

I warned them: that which is sealed is sealed for a reason.

I was later told that these pastors and youth leaders were running around that night with knives trying to kill each other.

I did warn them.

Would this be a synopsis of some film plot or something which has somehow accidentally found its way into the middle of your post here?

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
... keep separate the planes

By keep on keeping separate the planes, are you referring to aeronautical devices like Boeings which people use to travel in, so that e.g. maybe 747s don’t get mixed up with 707s, etc.?  Or could it be like Timothy Leary’s dead, with his astral plane flying on trips around the bay (bring you back on the same day)?  I would have thought the most important thing with keeping planes separate is to make sure they don’t collide.  Also, they shouldn’t go below their stalling speed.  All the while keeping a look out for other unidentified aircraft in the area, or weather balloons.  Meantime maintaining proper contact with air traffic control.  Not to just go missing for no good reason like that Malaysian jet airliner.  All that sort of thing, Etcetera…

Flying in, banking low
N Joy


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2014 7:01 pm  

No the burning of the books occurred 16yrs ago when I was 24yrs. Texts full of magic seals, magic squares and so on - your pretty average typical magical library for a young adult went up in flames; a couple thousand dollars worth. The most amusing and deplorable occurance was that "The Book of Ebon Bindings," a hoax, was the text they were most fanatical thereunto in their gibberish.  I warned these dangerous penticostal fools whom were all throwing up their hands and meaningless babble which they believe to be tongues, that they may face phenomena of which they have no comprehension.. I also told them that half of the texts they were burning constituted the doctrinal and dogmatic histories of their system. I would have had to assault them to get to my books.

A friend of mine was assaulted by a Hillsong priest when he went to pick up his daughter.  My friend broke the priest's jaw and was thrown before the judge.

Yes, I was definitely thinking that the authors have passed on.

"Keep separate the planes" is some poignant advice from The Master Therion of course. I just have not figured out how to subtend it to all my posts.

Regards


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/04/2014 7:14 pm  

And I am aware that certain Frater's are publishing unpublished Crowley opus' which is an argument against my desires to share I guess

...keep separate the planes


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
03/04/2014 12:39 pm  

Hi Atua,

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
No the burning of the books occurred 16yrs ago when I was 24yrs. Texts full of magic seals, magic squares and so on - your pretty average typical magical library for a young adult went up in flames; a couple thousand dollars worth. The most amusing and deplorable occurance was that "The Book of Ebon Bindings," a hoax, was the text they were most fanatical thereunto in their gibberish.  I warned these dangerous penticostal fools whom were all throwing up their hands and meaningless babble which they believe to be tongues, that they may face phenomena of which they have no comprehension.. I also told them that half of the texts they were burning constituted the doctrinal and dogmatic histories of their system. I would have had to assault them to get to my books.

A friend of mine was assaulted by a Hillsong priest when he went to pick up his daughter.  My friend broke the priest's jaw and was thrown before the judge.

It’s unclear how relevant this matter was/is to the topic of the thread as such; possibly it may have been more suitable background bio under an Introduction as I notice you are also a new member (Greetings & wellcome! by the way)

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
And I am aware that certain Frater's are publishing unpublished Crowley opus' which is an argument against my desires to share I guess

I’m not sure how this applies... there’s “infinite room” in theory - or at least, up until the point where every last scrap of Crowleyana has been made available, down to and including the Netherwood dry cleaning & laundry bills for his smalls. 

Also, by “publishing” do you mean simply posting on the net or actually producing a hard copy, i.e., a book (those quaint objects of yore and lore)?  Everybody keeps talking about 2017 as being D-Day in the sense of being the end of the current legislation applying 70 years after the death of A.C., but I have also heard “2039” being bandied about as some sort of a fall-back position, whose legitimacy is a little unclearer – also I don’t think the ©OTO’s position would be so absolutely unshakeable as not to be challenged after this earlier date. But it would surely be a brave, possibly foolish, undoubtedly rich individual who would take a chance to test (case) the waters and risk that old adage “Publish and be damned!”

Considering that it is the (Caliphornian) O.T.O.’s whole raison d’être and obligation to promulgate the law of Thelema and by implication and extension all of the writings of the Prophet, it is nothing short of an absolute disgrace that so many of his works are out of print and longer available, let alone previously unpublished work not being allowed to see daylight.  They have been talking about and promising a “definitive” Confessions and a collected Diaries for at least twenty seven years now, still with no firm sign of any illumination at the end of the tunnel/ rabbit hole.  It would also be a very worthwhile activity for them to try to put together a collated edition of all of A.C.'s letters sent throughout his lifetime – as a sort of extension of the valuable epistolatory correspondence which students can benefit from in Magick Without Tears – but no, there is no sign of such an initiative here either.

So no, I don’t therefore agree with your contention that certain Fratres publishing certain unpublished opera is an argument against your own desires to share (= publish).  And, good luck with it! 😉

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
... keep separate the planes

I hope you didn’t mind my little joking around with this, it’s just that you have put it at the bottom of every one of your posts so far: I wasn’t quite clear whether it was meant to be a significant caveat, some form of instruction to others, or maybe a reminder to do so yourself!(?)

If you are so keen on “keeping separate the planes” (as distinct, say, from making no difference between things) – which the Master Therion did say, or something very much like “don’t mix the planes” (no doubt some knowledgeable Lashtalian can provide an exact source & contextual setting, if they can be energised to do so) - how about sticking it at the bottom of your posts as a sign-off unless this is in fact what you meant by 'subtend'?  I don’t know how to do that myself (nor have thought of one sufficiently appropriate which I might wish to perpetuate), but I’m sure there must be some details somewhere on the Lash on how to do it, or if not some other person may be so kind as to help out.

707 / 717 / 727 / 737 / 747 / 757 / 767 / 777 / 787 !
N Joy


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1021
03/04/2014 1:03 pm  

To "subtend", aka, add a "signature" to your profile (Jamie and Atua) -

1. Your "Profile"
2. "Modify Profile"
3. "Forum Profile"
4. "Signature" box.


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
05/04/2014 12:33 pm  
"belmurru" wrote:
To "subtend", aka, add a "signature" to your profile (Jamie and Atua) -

1. Your "Profile"
2. "Modify Profile"
3. "Forum Profile"
4. "Signature" box.

If you are reading this now it does appears to work -- there is success! (Though sometimes being an awkward cuss I don’t know how long I may maintain this before possibly changing it…  don’t suppose there’s any set procedure or time period or fancy etiquette involved?)

With many thanks,
N Joy


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/04/2014 1:31 pm  

Yes, I was going off track.
I will make finding the quote a priority.
And thankyou belmurru, I shall follow your instructions.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/04/2014 7:41 am  

Hi Jamie ,

my comment about "keep separate the planes..." being obvious was not Intended the way it may have read. The advice, as such, to remember that there are often a plurality of degrees, levels of interpreting not just occult,  magickal phenomenon,  but all things has long been in the back of my mind. So hopefully I don't have to recant again for a while , all I seem to have done is apologise on this thread... Not the best start to a new forum.

Regards


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jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
10/04/2014 12:39 pm  
"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
Hi Jamie ,
my comment about "keep separate the planes..." being obvious was not Intended the way it may have read. The advice, as such, to remember that there are often a plurality of degrees, levels of interpreting not just occult,  magickal phenomenon,  but all things has long been in the back of my mind.

I’m glad you appear to have quite sorted that one out to your inner satisfaction, Atua.

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
So hopefully I don't have to recant again for a while

To recant or not to recant, now THAT is a question!…

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
all I seem to have done is apologise on this thread

“Apologise”? 😮  Dost thou meaneth to say “Thou art sorry” then, you dirty dog?! ;D

"Atua Paul Alton Ngatai" wrote:
... Not the best start to a new forum.

Never mind, amigos!  You could bear in mind the perhaps slightly over-simplistic - some might even say facile - advice of Meher Baba & assorted musicians: “Don’t worry, be happy”.  In such circumstances it is often best, I find, to just follow the sterling & impeccable advice of Dævid Allen and “have a cup of tea” at this point (- strong 'n' steaming!!)

Accompanying Kit-Kat, slices of cake and/or biscuits of course strictly optional.
N Joy


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