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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
Stop acting like the universe cares about what people think. It doesn't. You are just an animal, like every other animal. Your brain has developed a method by which to communicate to other animals, and you perceive through that lens. I suppose next you are going to tell me that stars and planets understand English. [...] The nature of the universe is change. It doesn't say to itself, "Oh look, I am changing". It just fucking changes. The label change, and the concept of change, have no bearing on whether or not it does so. Recognition of change only occurs through the perception of the passage of time, when one set of circumstances is compared to the next and proven to be different in some way. Humans do this, and perhaps some other animals, if they have consciousness. That's it. We use the word "time" to express that. But it doesn't "start changing" and "stop changing" just because we quit perceiving the passage of time, or somehow fail to see the changes.

[...]

Stop talking like your mind and the universe are one in the same. The universe does not stop for everyone else when "you" die. It continues to go on, not giving a shit one way or the other. The two are not connected. Your body doesn't even give a shit. It's atoms simply go somewhere else. Big whoop. The only thing that "dies" is "you".

[...]

The universe is not an illusion. The universe your mind creates is an illusion.

Wow. I am in complete, whole-hearted agreement with what Azidonis says here and how he expresses it.

Is this a sign of the end times?

You have reminded me of the Futurama show in which the robot Bender met God, and God was essentially a "galaxy" of blinking stars. It's good cartoon humor, but complete rubbish.

If I'm not mistaken, that's the episode where Bender tries at playing "god" to a race a tiny creatures living on the surface of his body (as he floats through space). The great lesson he learns at the end of the episode is that "If you're doing things right [i.e. as a god], it's almost like you're not there at all."

What a ridiculous, half-assed, semi-Deist cop-out for the episode. It's cleverly done, sure, and it's not going to alienate anyone watching, which is exactly what they were going for, but it always kind of annoys me.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

If you follow Penrose's OR model, then you'll know that it applies to stars as well as microtubules that allow you to be conscious in your bodies.  So as far as the Orch OR model is concerned a star is consciousness.  Infact, Hammeroff says they are in one of his interviews on youtube.  This is about what consciousness 'is' not what human beings do with it when added to the faculty of self awareness.  If you don't like the theory then take it up with one of the worlds most prominent physicists guys, but remember before you do that after 20 years of challenges in the academic world that Orch OR remains a viable proposition.  🙂       


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"Dar" wrote:
Az,

We're not understanding each other lately, it seems to me.  And you've went and posted a tome from a teacup too! 

I believe the process of consciousness in the human brain continues to function even when you are not self aware - i.e. asleep.  The term 'unconscious' is a bit of an inaccurate term therefore as it's not the opposite of consciousness but rather a period of consciousness without self-awareness.  I believe there's some scientific proof's behind that view... 

"Astral Projection 101". After the subtle body is projected, consciousness is projected, and awareness of that consciousness develops afterward. But you know everything already, especially what the skandhas are and how they work.

I suppose next you will tell me that the eyes see, the ears hear, the nose smells, the mouth tastes, and the mind is completely unconnected to any of it.

Or, you will continue you on your microtubule rant, as usual. I'm surprised you haven't called them God yet.

"Los" wrote:
Wow. I am in complete, whole-hearted agreement with what Azidonis says here and how he expresses it.

Is this a sign of the end times?

Possibly. I don't know how that happened.

Someone be quick! Call the suicide cults and tell them to prepare their Kool-Aid.

"Los" wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, that's the episode where Bender tries at playing "god" to a race a tiny creatures living on the surface of his body (as he floats through space). The great lesson he learns at the end of the episode is that "If you're doing things right [i.e. as a god], it's almost like you're not there at all."

What a ridiculous, half-assed, semi-Deist cop-out for the episode. It's cleverly done, sure, and it's not going to alienate anyone watching, which is exactly what they were going for, but it always kind of annoys me.

Ya, it kind of sputtered at the end. What I initially thought would be a nice, jarring episode ended up rather placating, in a way.  The one where they destroyed the universe was pretty cool too though.


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 360
 
"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, that's the episode where Bender tries at playing "god" to a race a tiny creatures living on the surface of his body (as he floats through space). The great lesson he learns at the end of the episode is that "If you're doing things right [i.e. as a god], it's almost like you're not there at all."
What a ridiculous, half-assed, semi-Deist cop-out for the episode. It's cleverly done, sure, and it's not going to alienate anyone watching, which is exactly what they were going for, but it always kind of annoys me.

Come on, if you two are gonna slam one of my favorite episodes, get your references right!  Bender didn't meet God, he met what was possibly the collision of space junk and God.  Important distinction!  It's just a cluster of stars with consciousness that speaks in binary, the viewers can make up our own minds.  Here's the dialogue:
"Bender: What are you, some kind of galactic computer?
Galaxy God: Possible. I am user-friendly, my good chum.
Bender: Who built you?
Galaxy God: I have always been.
Bender: Oh, my God. Are you God?
Galaxy God: Possible. I do feel compassion for all living
things, my good chum.
Bender: But why would God think in binary, unless, you're
not God, but the remains of a computerized space probe
that collided with God?
Galaxy God: That seems probable."

And the quote is:  "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." 
Is that not the Way of the Tao?  Following your Will, the frictionless path?  Effortless action? Makes perfect sense to me.  "Doing things right" isn't equivalent to not existing, it's equivalent to causing change without others being aware of your actions/interference.  Sounds like powerful magick, doesn't it?

Regarding the rest of these last few pages, Azidonis' posts above (#196, #198) cover most of my responses.  #198 in particular is an excellent reminder for people who get too far detached from Malkuth.  For example, consider the ridiculous irony in proposing a model of consciousness (like the Penrose OR model) as an alternative to the actual experiential understanding of consciousness (which you (Az and Los) have been discussing), in a thread about Malkuth and the Material World.  It's baffling.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Funny you should say that Az... because your sense of smell relies on quantum entanglement.  😀

I'm sorry if you don't like it that I base some of my modelling about the universe on actual current scientific models that have evidence behind them, instead of just pulling them from behind the ear of my favour Guru and assuming I or they know it all.  Dogma parroting itself is boring, and arrogance is a poor substitute for proof and it makes for a lacklustre debate. 

"It's all an illusion" he says.... as if delivering the latest news.

*rolls eyes*

finis.       


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 360
 

Reposting because no edit button and I seriously messed up my quote attributions.  Feel free to delete the previous post, Mod. Thanks.

"Los" wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, that's the episode where Bender tries at playing "god" to a race a tiny creatures living on the surface of his body (as he floats through space). The great lesson he learns at the end of the episode is that "If you're doing things right [i.e. as a god], it's almost like you're not there at all."
What a ridiculous, half-assed, semi-Deist cop-out for the episode. It's cleverly done, sure, and it's not going to alienate anyone watching, which is exactly what they were going for, but it always kind of annoys me.

Come on, if you and Az are gonna slam one of my favorite episodes, get your references right!  Bender didn't meet God, he met what was possibly the collision of space junk and God.  Important distinction!  It's just a cluster of stars with consciousness that speaks in binary, the viewers can make up our own minds.  Here's the dialogue:
"Bender: What are you, some kind of galactic computer?
Galaxy God: Possible. I am user-friendly, my good chum.
Bender: Who built you?
Galaxy God: I have always been.
Bender: Oh, my God. Are you God?
Galaxy God: Possible. I do feel compassion for all living
things, my good chum.
Bender: But why would God think in binary, unless, you're
not God, but the remains of a computerized space probe
that collided with God?
Galaxy God: That seems probable."

And the quote is:  "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." 
Is that not the Way of the Tao?  Following your Will, the frictionless path?  Effortless action? Makes perfect sense to me.  "Doing things right" isn't equivalent to not existing, it's equivalent to causing change without others being aware of your actions/interference.  Sounds like powerful magick, doesn't it?

Regarding the rest of these last few pages, Azidonis' posts above (#196, #198) cover most of my responses.  #198 in particular is an excellent reminder for people who get too far detached from Malkuth.  For example, consider the ridiculous irony in proposing a model of consciousness (like the Penrose OR model) as an alternative to the actual experiential understanding of consciousness (which you (Az and Los) have been discussing), in a thread about Malkuth and the Material World.  It's baffling.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"mika" wrote:
Reposting because no edit button and I seriously messed up my quote attributions.  Feel free to delete the previous post, Mod. Thanks.

"Los" wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, that's the episode where Bender tries at playing "god" to a race a tiny creatures living on the surface of his body (as he floats through space). The great lesson he learns at the end of the episode is that "If you're doing things right [i.e. as a god], it's almost like you're not there at all."
What a ridiculous, half-assed, semi-Deist cop-out for the episode. It's cleverly done, sure, and it's not going to alienate anyone watching, which is exactly what they were going for, but it always kind of annoys me.

Come on, if you and Az are gonna slam one of my favorite episodes, get your references right!  Bender didn't meet God, he met what was possibly the collision of space junk and God.  Important distinction!  It's just a cluster of stars with consciousness that speaks in binary, the viewers can make up our own minds.  Here's the dialogue:
"Bender: What are you, some kind of galactic computer?
Galaxy God: Possible. I am user-friendly, my good chum.
Bender: Who built you?
Galaxy God: I have always been.
Bender: Oh, my God. Are you God?
Galaxy God: Possible. I do feel compassion for all living
things, my good chum.
Bender: But why would God think in binary, unless, you're
not God, but the remains of a computerized space probe
that collided with God?
Galaxy God: That seems probable."

And the quote is:  "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." 
Is that not the Way of the Tao?  Following your Will, the frictionless path?  Effortless action? Makes perfect sense to me.  "Doing things right" isn't equivalent to not existing, it's equivalent to causing change without others being aware of your actions/interference.  Sounds like powerful magick, doesn't it?

Regarding the rest of these last few pages, Azidonis' posts above (#196, #198) cover most of my responses.  #198 in particular is an excellent reminder for people who get too far detached from Malkuth.  For example, consider the ridiculous irony in proposing a model of consciousness (like the Penrose OR model) as an alternative to the actual experiential understanding of consciousness (which you (Az and Los) have been discussing), in a thread about Malkuth and the Material World.  It's baffling.

Omg, I read the whole thing in the quote, and was sitting there thinking about how I would have to do the code in order to respond.

I like the Tao reference. It just seemed anti-climactic, I suppose.

God 2.0, by Michael Bay. Now with more EXPLOSIONS! 😀


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"Dar" wrote:
Funny you should say that Az... because your sense of smell relies on quantum entanglement.  😀

Oh, hey Dar.

What do you suppose quantum entanglement is? Using your own words, and no catch-phrases, of course. Okay, you can use the terms skandhas or indriyas, if you like.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Dar" wrote:
So we're at the ol' 'mind is a mirror' stage are we?  🙂  Very good...

To review...

The body is the tree of perfect wisdom
The mind is the stand of a bright mirror
At all time diligently wipe it
Do not allow it to become dusty.  - Shenxiu.

Fundamentally perfect wisdom has no tree
Nor has the bright mirror any stand
Buddha-nature is forever clear and pure
Where is there any dust? - Huineng, in reply.

I see you went from thinking of floating babies to digging up quotes.

Don't you recognise where these two poems originated Az? 

"Dar" wrote:
The individual is energy.  HAD.  I AM.

Whatever you say, Dar. "There is no God where I am." Not even Had...

I wasn't talking about God.  I was talking about energy.  Your reply is nonsense therefore. 

Energy is the potential to do work. Any work.

 

You are in error.  Probably because you weren't thinking it through (for whatever personal reason of your own last night).  To give an example - the Sun's energy is not 'potential to do work'.  Your reply is nonsense therefore.

There is no individual energy.

 
And where did I say there was?  I said the individual is energy.  Individuality is the unique patten of energy in spacetime.  If a metaphor would help:  each snowflake has a unique pattern, they are all made up of water-ice.  Your reply is nonsense.

Your body is a part of the world, and survives within the framework of it (eating, sleeping, fucking). Your mind does not exist.

 

When did I deny that your body is a part of the world?  Why should this mean your mind does not exist?  Your reply is nonsense therefore.

"Dar" wrote:
The mind is 'just' energy, arranged in patterns woven into space-time and matter in the universe.

"The mind is a myth."

Even myths are made of energy.  Your reply is nonsense therefore.

"Dar" wrote:
LOL.  Consciousness does not imply self awareness.

When you are not conscious, are you aware of yourself?

True non-consciousness would be death.  We don't loose consciousness in sleep of under anaesthetic, we loose self-awareness.  Your reply is nonsense therefore. 

"Dar" wrote:
Individuality does not imply self awareness either.

The illusion of self awareness creates the illusion of individuality.

Tell that to the entirely un-self-aware snow flake.  Another nonsense reply.

"Dar" wrote:
To say 'every man and woman is a star' does not imply they are self-aware.

The star is just a star. It does what it does. It needs no self-awareness to do what it does.

As I just said that I wasn't implying the stars were self-aware, your reply is parroting my own. 

You have reminded me of the Futurama show in which the robot Bender met God, and God was essentially a "galaxy" of blinking stars. It's good cartoon humor, but complete rubbish.

Try remember something more pertinent to the conversation next time, and you'll not confuse yourself so badly.  Your reply is nonsense. 

"Dar" wrote:
And a good job too because at any one time on the planet half of those stars will be asleep and not particularly self aware, yet their consciousness will still be operating in that different un-self-aware state.  Dreams will be had.  Memories will be shuffled and stored.  Consciousness continues on without self-awareness.

Self-awareness does not continue on without consciousness.