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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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24/11/2010 4:53 am  

Dear LAShTAL
This is something I have been thinking of for a few weeks, with current events and the veneer of false freedom being cracked open from our democracies to expose a true core of greed and near fascism. Disagree with that if you will but at any rate its got me thinking of this question:

What , if any , is the role of magick and the mage in current political activism and how does it interface with our politically charged lives?

I wonder simply due to the fact that I used to say truthfully ' I can't stand politics I just ignore it.' because I did, but now with all of the first world governments trampling over their citizens rights , i think no one can remain apolitical if they have a conscience.
So how can we reconcile the supposed view of the mage as a solitary individual somewhat aloof from the world of pain and politics with the need for real improvement in our social systems?

Even a wild card like good old Crow seemed to use political stunts more as a publicity tool for his magick and never seemed to find a common ground to reconcile the two, nor truthfully get involved in changing politics or his time in that way. So are the two incompatible?

Would love to hear your thoughts. It is a very abstract concept and existential struggle I am somewhat going through so I apologise if I wasnt able to make it as clear as I would like.
93 and love


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:24 am  

Christibrany, I would like to thank you for making this thread, because quite frankly I find myself in this sort of a dilemma myself. Apolitical thinking does seem to be the proper "Way of the Mage" so to speak. Crowley himself however seemed to have suffered from this question his entire life as well. At one point he would sneer towards all of politics, writing off voting as useless and anyone who reads the newspaper as fool; but then, with the same passion, he would become insanely political. Look at him during the World Wars, look at his books like "Diary of a Drug Fiend" and "Moonchild." Very political, sometimes painfully so. I don't know if I have a clear cut answer for you, but I at least wanted to show you that this seems to be a bit of a common struggle for people who practice any type of magick (and Thelema specifically) go through. Perhaps the answer is as simple and seemingly vague as: "Do what Thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law."


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Los
 Los
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24/11/2010 8:08 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
the veneer of false freedom being cracked open from our democracies to expose a true core of greed and near fascism.

This is some pretty strong rhetoric. Can you give a few examples of "near fascism" so that we have an idea of what you mean?

I think a good starting place for approaching politics is to get a grasp on what the actual issues are and the realistic options for changing things available to us.

It may require us to let go of some of our ideas about how things "should" be and look at the way things are a little more closely. It might actually be that individuals -- at least individuals from the lower and middle classes -- have virtually no ability to significantly modify the existing power structure.


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einDoppelganger
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24/11/2010 9:28 am  

I recommend Jim Wasserman's Thelema Now interview for one man's take on this. It is specifically American and particularly Libertarian but it might interest you.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/wuelf2000/thelema_now_wasserman.mp3

I have met magicians with all manner of political leanings. I knew many Thelemites who were ardently pro-war, so be aware not all the magicians will share your particular take on any of this.

I am reminded of at least two other "politics and Thelema" threads from the past few months...

S


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 3:27 pm  

James Wasserman's "The Slaves Shall Serve" was a book which I personally find excellent (his philosophy I concur with, his proposed solution of simply voting for fiscally conservative republicans and then ducking and covering as they foam at the mouth and tear the copper wiring out of the walls I do not; Im afraid to know whether he supports the Tea-Party or Glenn Beck).


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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24/11/2010 5:22 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"christibrany" wrote:
the veneer of false freedom being cracked open from our democracies to expose a true core of greed and near fascism.

This is some pretty strong rhetoric. Can you give a few examples of "near fascism" so that we have an idea of what you mean?

This isnt why i started this thread but because I am nice i will humour you even though in past threads when i post your beloved scientific evidence you beggar off with your tail between your legs.
ex 1: Government and lobbyists are sold scanners that dehumanise and give off cancer causing ionising radiation ( http://rex.nci.nih.gov/NCI_Pub_Interface/raterisk/risks90.html ) and then sexually assault you in the name of 'the war on terrorism' all the while the company who made these sold them is major conflict of interest with the government themselves:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/01/02/group_slams_chertoff_on_scanner_promotion/

ex2/ Bush is known to have stolen the 2004 election as exposed in a BBC documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug4cKY-9akI and I hold little hope that the figures were not manipulated via voting machine errors instituted by their cronies in government to flip votes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs

ex3/ the CIA admitted in a BBC documentary that AlQaeda was nothing but a fabrication created by them: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/3970901.stm watch it and see for yourself. Edited for this gem of info: "In the video, top ranking CIA operatives admit that al-Qaeda is a complete and total fabrication by the CIA. They plainly state that NO SUCH ORGANIZATION HAS EVER EXISTED AT ANY TIME. The fantasy was spun in January 2001 by Jamal al Fadl, a Sudanese who had been with Bin Laden in the early 1990s. Jamal al Fadl stole money from Bin Laden, and then sought protection in the USA. The FBI and CIA paid him hundreds of thousands of dollars to create the al-Qaeda fiction. In fact, al Fadl invented the name al-Qaeda." (in film but quoted from: http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/5113 )
I could go on and on but id rather we not talk about this any more in this thread. If you want to disagree please PM me Los for the purposes of keeping focussed on my reason for creating this thread.

Now back to my real point which is although we had a Politics and Thelema thread that one in my humble opinion was derailed by theoretical talk of applying themela to governments. I dont want to talk about that. I am more into how we can reconcile the opposing views of magick as a sort of solitary and in some sense escapist act (although it does have at its motive personal betterment and change so that's a bit paradoxical but it can be misused), with the desire for a betterment of society as a whole, even if most people are useless cattle who dont stand up for their rights.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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24/11/2010 5:23 pm  

PS I haven't had time due to my lengthy post to listen to those interviews but i shall and i am very thankful for you all sharing the information and book reccos. 🙂


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einDoppelganger
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24/11/2010 6:25 pm  

I venture the reason some magicians prattle on about things like "mastering the higher planes" while they can barely make rent is because too many mages lack the understanding they need to compliment ritual with work. They become preoccupied with wanking off on a game a hangman gone wrong rather than taking tangible action.

Political activism is accomplished by real work and commitment to making change occur in conformity with will by the liberal removal of ones self from ones ass. No special considerations for the magician are required other than perhaps an allowance for a higher than average predisposition to delusion and laziness. I think the best approach is to pick a cause or two that is important to you and take action. See who else is mobilized and help out. The biggest thing that depletes my own confidence in effecting political change in America at least is the general lack of commitment shown by the citizens. bBeing among a group as dedicated as yourself will keep your morale and or indignation high and by extension your motivation to continue to work.

I do find that Magick has engendered an uncanny ability for me to see both sides of every argument. It has brought my world to many shades of gray. I think the more black and white you see the easier it is to define your goals politically and pursue them relentlessly.

I do find myself being apolitical more than I am always comfortable admitting. I imagine that Franz Bardon may have been apolitical as well...


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 6:45 pm  

I think first and foremost as Thelemite's, each individual must first consider who they are and how they are going to live their life. The ability to change oneself must be learned before one can set off to change the world. I knew a labor activist that gave up being a vegetarian when the rest of the world didn't follow. He started eating meat again when he realized the meat industry hadn't fallen to their knees beneath his feet. Instead of taking up vegetarianism as a personal choice and for health reasons and to minimize his carbon foot print, he took up vegetarianism to somehow change the world, if he had better evaluated his choices he may still be a vegetarian today. Instead he's now a part of the very system he couldn't beat.

I think Los' ridiculous "can you prove there is a political situation we should be worried about" kind of skepticism is really kind of funny.

Los why don't you just take it upon yourself to open your eyes and look around.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 6:50 pm  

I consider myself a-political, as a poltics is just another institution. I do believe in justice and I'am certainly concerned about the state of humanity today, and as a Thelemite, I have a responsibilty to be a torch bearer in dark times as it were. I'm not going to vote or join a protest, but I will stand up demand justice.
Lead by example and value justice, something a Thelemite should be able to understand more than most I would think.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 6:53 pm  

Sorry. I also wanted to point out that I don't follow conspiracies, but I do certainly believe that our governments and institutions are corrupt by design.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:09 pm  

I'm with you AEternis! It's more leading by example than anything, it's sensible to believe that is the political stance of a Thelemite. It all just comes down to living by "Do What thou Wilt."


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:28 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
What , if any , is the role of magick and the mage in current political activism and how does it interface with our politically charged lives?

As anyone who has read my babblings in this forum to any extent knows, I welcome the topic. I am a very politically active Thelemite in my own country, but I wonder if we shouldn't broaden the topic a bit, to "what is the role of the Law of Thelema in the political sphere?" I suggest this because, although I have been a Magician for over 40 years, I realize that most of the other individuals on the planet will never be one, nor should they, if such endeavors are not their true Will. However, "the Law is for all." What do you think, christibrany?


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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24/11/2010 7:48 pm  

I think it is for all theoretically in terms of possibilities but in terms of probabilities and practicalities the average individual can't even separate fact from fiction and votes against their own self interest: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2630835/posts
so id say if they cant watch out for their own interests they arent going to be able to Do what they Willt in terms of their true will which is to improve them very well. Just my opinion based on dealing with the Herd on a daily basis and watching how out of touch with even being a functioning basic human they are. Show them a tv and they cant even concentrate enough to take home what theyve paid for for distraction. Show them a sign that says something like do not enter hazardous and they will all kill themselves. So im more worried about the law for me rather than everyone else to be honest. And then I and others can help the herd since they cant help themselves.
If they were interested in honestly improving and bettering themselves then I would agree the Law is for all but right now it unfortunately doesnt work that way.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:51 pm  

I'm with you AEternis! It's more leading by example than anything, it's sensible to believe that is the political stance of a Thelemite. It all just comes down to living by "Do What thou Wilt."


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:56 pm  
"Jedidiah" wrote:
I'm with you AEternis! It's more leading by example than anything, it's sensible to believe that is the political stance of a Thelemite. It all just comes down to living by "Do What thou Wilt."

The general concern would be that any one given government policy may be more conducive to individuals living by "Do What thou Wilt" than an opposing government policy might be. Does this make sense, in general, Jedidiah?


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:59 pm  

I can't fall in line with the us and them thinking that viewing people as a whole as "the herd" or as the "other" is going to be helpful to you, me or the rest of the world.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 7:59 pm  

It's not even a helpful viewpoint from the magicians standpoint.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 8:05 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
I think it is for all theoretically in terms of possibilities but in terms of probabilities and practicalities the average individual can't even separate fact from fiction and votes against their own self interest: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2630835/posts
so id say if they cant watch out for their own interests they arent going to be able to Do what they Willt in terms of their true will which is to improve them very well. Just my opinion based on dealing with the Herd on a daily basis and watching how out of touch with even being a functioning basic human they are. Show them a tv and they cant even concentrate enough to take home what theyve paid for for distraction. Show them a sign that says something like do not enter hazardous and they will all kill themselves. So im more worried about the law for me rather than everyone else to be honest. And then I and others can help the herd since they cant help themselves.
If they were interested in honestly improving and bettering themselves then I would agree the Law is for all but right now it unfortunately doesnt work that way.

As Crowley was quick to observe and decree, the average voter is a moron. I do find it interesting that one has to take and pass a test in most countries in order to be allowed to drive a motor vehicle, demonstrating that they are familiar with the basic 'rules of the road' in that sphere of activity. Perhaps the same should be true of voting in an election?


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 8:22 pm  
"AEternitas" wrote:
I can't fall in line with the us and them thinking that viewing people as a whole as "the herd" or as the "other" is going to be helpful to you, me or the rest of the world.

Not sure which post you were addressing, AEternitas, since you neglected to use the quote function, but I would like to note that it is not the innate nature of our species to behave as herd animals, although we do group in various ways. A great deal of conditioning is required to convert a human to be herd-ready, and a great deal of it has been applied to us.


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christibrany
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24/11/2010 8:40 pm  

aeternitas you may be misconstruing me. i believe on a basic soul level all beings are equal but this politically correct BS of everyone being equal in terms of worth is not so . there are worthless eaters out there whether you like it or not. and also the average person is not worthless but he sure isnt intelligent . The schooling system in the US is suffering in my opinion almost on purpose and it shows. The average american is still a moron compared to the average western european or eastern asian .
Furthermore I used to hold your view that a view of us versus them in terms of the masses was counterproductive but its actually more productive. Once you realise what the average person is not interested or capable to better themselves and their surroundings then you can stop wasting your time trying to educate them and help and educate the people that are actually interested in their destiny and democracy and not television shows and celebrities. In personal effort I realised a long time ago I was wasting my time and breath in sharing information with people who were not courageous enough to even want to think about the implications of it . So it is not just ignorance it is fear too. Hence the creation of this false war on terror it helps control the populace and kill any bud of resistance or interest in researching the causes of this fracas. Because they become afraid of being labeled a dissident or a terrorist merely by questioning authority and screwed up policies, which is definition of fascism, creating fear based rule tied to a single (Executive) head of power and co opting corporations for state use.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 10:10 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"Jedidiah" wrote:
I'm with you AEternis! It's more leading by example than anything, it's sensible to believe that is the political stance of a Thelemite. It all just comes down to living by "Do What thou Wilt."

The general concern would be that any one given government policy may be more conducive to individuals living by "Do What thou Wilt" than an opposing government policy might be. Does this make sense, in general, Jedidiah?

This is true Camlion, and it happens right here, in this country. But Camlion, look about you: is there any way that this situation can be remedied except through the blind and merciless force of chaos? Think about it: The bipartisan system in this country truly accommodates no one. One merely votes for the lesser of two evils. The "facts" don't even exist; go to CNN news and then to FOX and you'll see mutually exclusive concepts paraded about as facts, and they're all fake. To quote Crowley's exposition in The Book of the Law: "Democracy dodders. Ferocious Fascism, cackling Communism, equally frauds, cavort crazily all over the globe. They are hemming us in. They are the abortive births of Child." Apolitical thinking is the only sanity. Thelema is a bastion thereof which will become soiled if politics is mixed. It's all cyclic anyway, a global Dynastic cycle the likes of which we know is coming. This is the Aeon of Horus, it's not going to be pretty, but it can be 'ridden out' by a person properly equipped. That's what Thelema is. While the masses continue to slaughter themselves, we stay if not dry, at least sane amidst the bloodshed wherewith we are embroiled. Whose to say what the future holds? Not I. But I can feel pretty safe guessing that from a political or normal viewpoint, the answer is not too pretty. "Do what Thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law," because everything else for this Aeon seems to me to be leaning towards seemingly perpetual volatility. Just my two cents though, I'm not saying this is how it IS just explaining myself.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 10:13 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
i believe on a basic soul level all beings are equal but this politically correct BS of everyone being equal in terms of worth is not so .

If each of us is unique, how can any two be equal? In essence, perhaps, but not in expression of that essence.


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2010 11:24 pm  

Very good post Jedidiah! I agree with most of what you are saying. I'm apolitical myself, hell I've never even voted on the student government in school! The current situation could be a whole heck of a lot better, of course. But, I'm too busy working on myself to worry about the masses. In regards to the wars going on (and I'm probably going to express an unpopular opinion here but that's okay with me) it doesn't really bother me. The planet must be bathed in blood to prepare the way for the Child, after all....

Hail Father CHAOS! 😈


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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24/11/2010 11:40 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"christibrany" wrote:
i believe on a basic soul level all beings are equal but this politically correct BS of everyone being equal in terms of worth is not so .

If each of us is unique, how can any two be equal? In essence, perhaps, but not in expression of that essence.

thats exactly my pt 🙂 souls may be of equal value but encased in flesh we are mired in the duality and difference of the material illusion.


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 Anonymous
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28/11/2010 10:27 pm  
"Jedidiah" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
"Jedidiah" wrote:
I'm with you AEternis! It's more leading by example than anything, it's sensible to believe that is the political stance of a Thelemite. It all just comes down to living by "Do What thou Wilt."

The general concern would be that any one given government policy may be more conducive to individuals living by "Do What thou Wilt" than an opposing government policy might be. Does this make sense, in general, Jedidiah?

This is true Camlion, and it happens right here, in this country. But Camlion, look about you: is there any way that this situation can be remedied except through the blind and merciless force of chaos? Think about it: The bipartisan system in this country truly accommodates no one. One merely votes for the lesser of two evils.

If by "right here, in this country," you mean the USA, Jedidiah, I agree completely regarding the corrupt two-party political system. (And the same is true of most democracies, presently.) Of the two alternatives available here, each party contradicts the Law of Thelema in an opposite way.

The Law of Thelema in the political sphere is necessarily both liberal with respect to personal freedoms, promoting a government dedicated to facilitating the knowing and doing of true Will (Thelema) at optimum levels by their citizens, but also necessarily conservative when it comes to individual independence, self-reliance and the personal strength that these bring, as opposed to dependence, government reliance and the personal weakness that those things bring. In other words, Thelema in the political sphere would be, imo, a political hybrid, not fully compatible with either of the traditional liberal or conservative extremes.

Of course, this two-party political farce serves only those career politicians and their cronies who sustain it, and they sustain it at the expense of the people who repeatedly elect them. This process makes democracy look foolish and hopeless, although it could rather easily corrected.

As examples, there should be term limits on each and every political office, to rid us of career politicians. Political service is meant to be temporary service to one's country, not a lifetime criminal enterprise. And there should be no private monetary contributions involved in democracy, so that elections are not bought and sold, as they routinely are today.

Most importantly, perhaps, each voter should be personally qualified to vote, to be tested in a way similar to the way applicants for citizenship are tested. A well-informed electorate is required to sustain a democracy, and those not interested or not sufficiently educated in the political process need not participate. As Thomas Jefferson wrote: "whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that, whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may relied upon to set them right."

Most voters in democracies today vote based upon what cheap tricks and outright lies pass before them while they sit starring numbly at the TV, or they vote blindly accepting the furtherance of one political party or the other based upon habit alone, the way one cheers on one's favorite sports team year after year.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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28/11/2010 10:42 pm  

the only way i can think of to fix it is as people to constantly pass on more information and evidence and perhaps as magicians to devise rituals aimed at affecting change. i think in a large part this is already happening. but this tends to be a solitary or small group ting which leads me back to my thread topic and that is how can we reconcile the inner nature of magick especially in Crowleys AA as being a near solitary activity with the need for change on a global scale? or are they always meant to be two separate entities in part?
Even Spare who had great political ideas of the vehement sort against the Herd (see Anathema of Zos) seems to have preferred to shut himself off from his society. And Crowley in his later years although he tried to ingratiate himself with political leaders never laid any practical groundwork as magicians how we can affect political and social change, other than by saying "You should take up the Law of Thelema because of you did things would be better." essentially.


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 Anonymous
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29/11/2010 12:38 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
but this tends to be a solitary or small group ting which leads me back to my thread topic and that is how can we reconcile the inner nature of magick especially in Crowleys AA as being a near solitary activity with the need for change on a global scale? or are they always meant to be two separate entities in part?

Any practice proper to invoke the Energies of the Aeon of Horus would most likely qualify, Chris.

"christibrany" wrote:
And Crowley in his later years although he tried to ingratiate himself with political leaders never laid any practical groundwork as magicians how we can affect political and social change, other than by saying "You should take up the Law of Thelema because of you did things would be better." essentially.

Actually, AC seemed to rely heavily on the future of the OTO, I think.


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 Anonymous
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29/11/2010 3:09 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
This is something I have been thinking of for a few weeks, with current events and the veneer of false freedom being cracked open from our democracies to expose a true core of greed and near fascism. Disagree with that if you will but at any rate its got me thinking of this question: What , if any , is the role of magick and the mage in current political activism and how does it interface with our politically charged lives?

"christibrany" wrote:
now with all of the first world governments trampling over their citizens rights, i think no one can remain apolitical if they have a conscience. So how can we reconcile the supposed view of the mage as a solitary individual somewhat aloof from the world of pain and politics with the need for real improvement in our social systems?

"christibrany" wrote:
Even a wild card like good old Crow seemed to use political stunts more as a publicity tool for his magick and never seemed to find a common ground to reconcile the two, nor truthfully get involved in changing politics or his time in that way. So are the two incompatible?

"christibrany" wrote:
It is a very abstract concept and existential struggle I am somewhat going through so I apologise if I wasnt able to make it as clear as I would like.

Thelema functioning as a stable and optimal societal basis for a better way of living and working together with others, is something AC believed in, and something AC tried to implement in real life. This is covered in more detail by AC in chapter 87 of his Confessions, in which he starts the last paragraph with the following words: "I have attained to understanding, I have made my magical model of society, [...]." AC staring the last paragraph of chapter 87 in Confessions, covering his magical model of society, by stating that he has attained to understanding (AC's AA was about attaining to understanding through enlightenment), seems to indicate that his magical model of society, for him was the answer to your thread topic christibrany:

"christibrany" wrote:
how can we reconcile the inner nature of magick especially in Crowleys AA as being a near solitary activity with the need for change on a global scale? or are they always meant to be two separate entities in part?

To only lead by example as one single individual mage, is quite unlikely to affect your society or mine in very significant ways politically speaking, (which isn't to say it can not affect you on a personal level, which it no doubt can). And only working alone as a mage, will not demonstrate Thelema's political viability as a functioning alternative way of living and working together with others, in the form of a stable commune, community, or group.

I agree with Camlion, in that AC on the question of establishing a stable commune, community, or group on the basis of Thelema, "seemed to rely heavily on the future of the OTO".


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 Anonymous
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29/11/2010 4:30 am  

personally I think the first step would be to open the mystery schools up to the public, a sort of Outer Court. I think that would go a long way toward raising humanity up from the primitive emotional state in which we currently are. I think if this were to take place alongside further developments in our technolgy, that we will transcend the need for medieval institutions like money and insurance and so forth and they will simply wither away due to a lack of relevance.


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 Anonymous
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29/11/2010 7:22 am  

I have always been intrigued by the seeming contradiction in Thelema and magick in general between elitesm and anarchism. On one hand Thelema is generally interpreted as a form of eqalitarian anarchism (the law is for all). While its very nature (initiatory) requires degrees of excellance which are in themselves anti democratic in the sense that they are not for all, but for those who make the grade. While Liber Oz seems to be a sort of anarchist call to arms, Do What Thou Wilt seems to only apply to those who have found their "true will" and is hence elitest. Some would even see this process in terms of Fredrich Nietszche's idea of the Overman, Homo Novus or next stage of human evolution. Throughout the history of occultism there has been this conflict between Traditionalisms and so-called progressives or Modernists. Julius Evola, for example, is someone who fascinates me but is certainly in the Traditionalist school. In the end of his life Evola became disenchanted by politics and suggested we "Ride the Tiger" i.e. hold onto the back of the modern age and simply ride it until it falls exhausted. I have personally tried to resolve these two models but find it difficult. How do we reconcile the Kali Yuga and the Aeon of Horus ? I tend to see that we are in the endstage of all civilizations and that the Aeon of Horus heralds a formula for those who are aware enough to apply it. Obviously these will be the few and not the many. Love some comments on this as I think it is a fascinating debate.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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29/11/2010 1:55 pm  
"Synergy" wrote:
I have always been intrigued by the seeming contradiction in Thelema and magick in general between elitesm and anarchism. On one hand Thelema is generally interpreted as a form of eqalitarian anarchism (the law is for all). While its very nature (initiatory) requires degrees of excellance which are in themselves anti democratic in the sense that they are not for all, but for those who make the grade. While Liber Oz seems to be a sort of anarchist call to arms, Do What Thou Wilt seems to only apply to those who have found their "true will" and is hence elitest. Some would even see this process in terms of Fredrich Nietszche's idea of the Overman, Homo Novus or next stage of human evolution. Throughout the history of occultism there has been this conflict between Traditionalisms and so-called progressives or Modernists. Julius Evola, for example, is someone who fascinates me but is certainly in the Traditionalist school. In the end of his life Evola became disenchanted by politics and suggested we "Ride the Tiger" i.e. hold onto the back of the modern age and simply ride it until it falls exhausted. I have personally tried to resolve these two models but find it difficult. How do we reconcile the Kali Yuga and the Aeon of Horus ? I tend to see that we are in the endstage of all civilizations and that the Aeon of Horus heralds a formula for those who are aware enough to apply it. Obviously these will be the few and not the many. Love some comments on this as I think it is a fascinating debate.

Yes, there are contradictions, but I don't think they need to be resolved. Peronally I think that the Law is for all, and whether someone makes the grade or not is down to application essentially.

Re the Aeon of Horus and the Kali Yuga, this is something which struck me in the early 1970s. I recall reading an article by David Hall in the first issue of Sothis, 'Time and the World', in which he considered the Hindu ages, and against which the Aeon of Horus appears little more than a pinprick in eternity. I have since come to regard the Big Bang as a phase in the unending sequence of a Day and a Night of Brahma, and the Aeon of Horus as a phase within that phase. On the other hand, I regard the Aeons as levels of initiation rather than sequences of time, and the Hindu yugas can perhaps be looked at in the same light.

Magick and Political Activism? It doesn't interest me that much. I really can't see the point of speculating about how a government might govern in a Thelemic way, given how far off such a government is likely to be. It reminds me of articles I used to read in "underground" journals such as Oz or International Times in the late 1960s, about how banks would be organised after the revolution. Yes I do think that Thelema is anarchic, but anarchic in the sense of following innate laws, those that - to paraphrase Crowley - bid stars to follow their orbits, vines to bear fruit, and water to seek its level

Best wishes,

Michael.


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alysa
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29/11/2010 3:12 pm  

Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts regarding these subjects, Michael, they seem to apply to the most important wonderings I had regarding Thelema, also I was often wondering how it would be implemented in a political system like for example Communism, but I also see that as something that would be nearly impossible to do, (but that counts for me for other political systems as well), I also see the Big Bang as a phase in the Day of Brahma, and also of course the Aeon of Horus, in that way I seem to be able to reconcile Science and Esoterism.


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 Anonymous
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29/11/2010 8:09 pm  
"Synergy" wrote:
I have always been intrigued by the seeming contradiction in Thelema and magick in general between elitesm and anarchism. On one hand Thelema is generally interpreted as a form of eqalitarian anarchism (the law is for all). While its very nature (initiatory) requires degrees of excellance which are in themselves anti democratic in the sense that they are not for all, but for those who make the grade. While Liber Oz seems to be a sort of anarchist call to arms, Do What Thou Wilt seems to only apply to those who have found their "true will" and is hence elitest.

I really don't see the contradiction. True Will is the natural function of the individual. The individual has every right to that function and no right to deviate therefrom. I think the apparent contradiction comes into play because of the lapse in knowing one's true Will, a lapse that is not natural and is the result of early environmental neglect, of emphasis on artificial self-images and artificial life-goals rather than on self-realization skills. Initiatory schools are really, at least in part, true Will recovery programs.


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 Anonymous
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29/11/2010 8:59 pm  
"Synergy" wrote:
How do we reconcile the Kali Yuga and the Aeon of Horus ? I tend to see that we are in the endstage of all civilizations and that the Aeon of Horus heralds a formula for those who are aware enough to apply it. Obviously these will be the few and not the many. Love some comments on this as I think it is a fascinating debate.

93, Synergy!

I believe you gave great answer right after you asked the question ie apply the formula of the Aeon of Horus. This formula seems much more than discovering and aligning to True Will, which can be seen as a beginning step. The formula of the Aeon of Horus reveals itself ever more through application.


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 Anonymous
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03/12/2010 6:35 am  

it's a tricky question. Imagine for a minute you were working for the removal of the Shah of Iran in 1970 something. You won. The CIA lost, and the Shah got ass cancer, died dead. Now imagine the Ayatollah Khomeni taking power in Iran and marching 800,000 Persian boys to die in the minefields separating Iraq from Iran at the time. yes, your political activism was successful in saving the world from the evil CIA. But, Yes you were a destructive Asshole on a collosal scale. But hey, who's to know?


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phthah
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05/12/2010 3:48 am  

93,

"christibrany" wrote:
So how can we reconcile the supposed view of the mage as a solitary individual somewhat aloof from the world of pain and politics with the need for real improvement in our social systems?

Hi Chris - I thought this was an interesting thread when I read it earlier and the subject is quite worthy of discussion. I thought I would throw out a few thoughts on this. IMO this idea of the "mage" as a solitary individual, aloof and almost Hermit like, is no long a valid position with the advent of the Aeon of Horus! In Liber AL ii 24 it says the following:

Behold! these be grave mysteries; for there are also of my friends who be hermits. Now think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain; but in beds of purple, caressed by magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them; there shall ye find them. Ye shall see them at rule, at victorious armies, at all the joy; and there shall be in them a joy a million times greater than this. Beware lest any force another, King against King! Love one another with burning hearts; on the low men trample in the fierce lust of your pride, in the day of your wrath.

IMO, in this Aeon, the path of the "mage" goes into the world, not into seclusion. "Think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain", but anywhere in society and in any walk of life. Now, this of course does not make matters any easier for the Thelemic magician! Indeed the occasional "retirement" still remains important. But we must remember that "all must be done well and with business way". The Thelemic magician must be able to funtion on all planes, including the material.

"christibrany" wrote:
the only way i can think of to fix it is as people to constantly pass on more information and evidence and perhaps as magicians to devise rituals aimed at affecting change. i think in a large part this is already happening. but this tends to be a solitary or small group ting which leads me back to my thread topic and that is how can we reconcile the inner nature of magick especially in Crowleys AA as being a near solitary activity with the need for change on a global scale? or are they always meant to be two separate entities in part?
Even Spare who had great political ideas of the vehement sort against the Herd (see Anathema of Zos) seems to have preferred to shut himself off from his society. And Crowley in his later years although he tried to ingratiate himself with political leaders never laid any practical groundwork as magicians how we can affect political and social change, other than by saying "You should take up the Law of Thelema because of you did things would be better." essentially.

The thing to remember though is that the Aeon is very young, relatively speaking. Perhaps down the road we will be in a better position to affect change in the political structure. For now, the Thelemic Current is just beginning. It is growing, but at the present time the inertia of the other currents is enormous; every new Aspirant must add his/her energy to the Force. It is up to us to come up with ways to create a more Thelemic friendly enviroment. But as we move forward, we must remember that which is etched in Liber Tzaddi, "My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells." We move forward from that stance!

93 93/93
phthah


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christibrany
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05/12/2010 4:16 pm  

Very lucid and sensible reply pthah thank you much 🙂
I just want things to get better quicker because I know those that are creating a lot of other problems in this world not only think they are doing the right thing or the patriotic thing, or god's duty but they are being brainwashed. So to speak. And they are being told by their even higher ups that 'home grown terrorism' and 'dissidents' are growing in their domestic countries as a way to quash resistance to their lack of rationality, compassion and democracy.
So based on that it makes me want not only the world to wake up to how bad the situation really has become in terms of governments being co-opted but also that Thelema finds a foothold and support among more people.
The worst thing in terms of that I have noticed is that a lot of the stupid Christian posts in various places online equate the OTO and Thelema with evil and not only that; they tie it into the current problems I have mentioned. For example they think Crowley infiltrated succesfuly our power structure in world governments in terms of some grand satanic conspiracy though I think he did not.
Although it would be ironic to have thelemites fighting thelemites one against the current power structure and one for it, though I think most of that data is probably false because if you follow thelema to its natural end you become a whole person not interested in power.
hmm...


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 Anonymous
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05/12/2010 8:41 pm  
"phthah" wrote:
IMO, in this Aeon, the path of the "mage" goes into the world, not into seclusion. "Think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain", but anywhere in society and in any walk of life. Now, this of course does not make matters any easier for the Thelemic magician! Indeed the occasional "retirement" still remains important. But we must remember that "all must be done well and with business way". The Thelemic magician must be able to funtion on all planes, including the material

Excellent post, phthah! A very, very important lesson that is overlooked by so many among us, unfortunately. Excellent.


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 Anonymous
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05/12/2010 9:43 pm  

To elaborate for a moment, some among us (including some Thelemites who post here) see Thelema entirely as a transcendent worldview devoted to 'the higher or inner planes.' Others (including some Thelemites who post here) see Thelema entirely as a temporal worldview devoted to 'the outer or lower planes.' IMO, either extreme is partially mistaken. I see Thelema as an all-encompassing worldview insisting upon balanced application in both transcendent and temporal affairs, and this perception seems to me to be substantiated by Liber AL. This is why I welcome threads such as this one, that seek to explore the integration these facets of Thelema. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 12:56 am  

The real world don't give a shit about any theories. Don't let that worry you none though. You done transcended the real world and live in a treehouse.


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 1:13 am  

Haven't we done this subject already in the Politics and Thelema thread?

Crowley says:

""People who wish to reform the world (on a pattern of theoretical excellence totally unconnected with human nature) are at the very antipodes of solar life and light. They fear vitality."

This is likely to be an accusation which will always be levelled at any institution, group or organisation which seeks to impose its "worldview" on individuals. Regardless of the label under which it does so.

Thelema is not a worldview, it is an understanding or recognition of a fact. Therefore it does not require imposition upon others, evangelism, etc., but continued study and individual engagement.

Thelema can only be applied on an individual basis, by the individual(s) concerned - voluntarily. Any political activism or non-activism arises or not, from this, and only thus can either course be considered "Thelemic". To call it "political" is fatuous anyway, because it belongs to another category entirely. Politics is for monkeys.

Presumably the thrust of Thelema is to Know Thyself so that one can Do one's Will better - which involves magical and mystical practise - which in turn affects directly the actions which one takes during life (i.e. the policies one adopts, i.e. one's "politics"), through its transformative effect upon consciousness. It has nothing to do with politics per se, and everything to do with the transformation of individual consciousness, on a voluntary basis.


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 1:51 am  

Hi Noc. It is politics that forms collective restrictions, for example, by government upon individual human action, such action being, hopefully, informed by true Will. Hence (one) relationship between politics and doing true Will.

Thelema is then, a factual wordview. I agree. Thank you for that. 🙄

By the way, "Knowing Thyself" may or may not involve magical or mystical practice. Just because it did for you and I, does not mean that it must be so for everyone.


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 4:48 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
Hi Noc. It is politics that forms collective restrictions, for example, by government upon individual human action, such action being, hopefully, informed by true Will. Hence (one) relationship between politics and doing true Will.

True, but the impetus for politics comes from politicians, who are individuals. To varying extents these individuals act in Thelemic or anti-Thelemic interests, depending on their recognition of Thelema ("Do what thou wilt") -regardless of the label under which they recognise the fact, which is simply the product of natural law and unfettered human consciousness. As consciousness improves at the rate which it is doing, so politics improves naturally. Focus on the former and the latter will take care of itself.

Thelema is then, a factual wordview. I agree. Thank you for that. 🙄

They're your words, what I said was that I do not agree with the definition of Thelema as a "worldview". All "worldviews" are necessarily deficient, being incomplete. Thelema (Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law) is just what happens anyway, irrespective of what one's incomplete and unfinished "worldview" is. To the degree which one's worldview continues to grow nourished on doing one's will, which necessarily comports continual reference to the relation of realities both internal and apparently external, could it be said to partake of the nature of Thelema. But Thelema dies the second it becomes ossified into a "worldview", in my opinion.

By the way, "Knowing Thyself" may or may not involve magical or mystical practice. Just because it did for you and I, does not mean that it must be so for everyone.

Just for the record, what I said was that these are means to that end. Who they are for or not for is not for us to decide. Then again, Crowley said: Magick is for All. Then again, he was probably wrong, so you may have a point here.


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 7:10 am  

Thelema emphasizes finding the True Will, obviously everyone will not do this. Does this create a hierarchy between those who are awake and those who are not ? If you correlate the concept of the awakened man of Will with the New Man of Fredrich Nietszche or Plato's Philosopher kings then you have a very different approach to democracy. Julius Evola argued that the essence of true human liberty was a societies very LACK of equality because this allowed the cream to rise to the surface. I am not necessarily arguing for or against this approach but even if we argue for an anarchist system, those who have awakened their True Will are likely to end up as the ones running the show since they understand life better.


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the_real_simon_iff
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06/12/2010 8:05 am  
"Synergy" wrote:
those who have awakened their True Will are likely to end up as the ones running the show since they understand life better.

93!

I cannot see into the future, but so far there is no evidence for this statement, and it could be seen as wishful thinking. I therefore argue that True Will is not at all about running the show, at least not the political show.

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 10:28 am  

"True will" is not a Class-A term, it is a secondary construct of Aleister's, his unfortunate attempt at rationalising Thelema into a "system" according to late Victorian pseudo-scientistic notions of intellectualism. But let us take this term according to his own poor and weasel-like definitions, whose 28 theorems of Magick do not cohere amongst themselves - amd are after all just a theory, not a fact of any kind. It can then be said that even supposing one "found one's TW" - whatever that means - it does not follow that one's TW is to "run the show". Equally it may be said that the best statesmen in history were doing their Will according to all the requisites of TW - without knowing about "Thelema" as such. With the obvious exception of Hitler. LOL.


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 Anonymous
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06/12/2010 7:45 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
As consciousness improves at the rate which it is doing, so politics improves naturally. Focus on the former and the latter will take care of itself.

So sayeth the 'wise' yogi of the East when confronted with the fact that his drinking water is co-mingled with his sewage.

"Camlion" wrote:
To elaborate for a moment, some among us (including some Thelemites who post here) see Thelema entirely as a transcendent worldview devoted to 'the higher or inner planes.' Others (including some Thelemites who post here) see Thelema entirely as a temporal worldview devoted to 'the outer or lower planes.' IMO, either extreme is partially mistaken. I see Thelema as an all-encompassing worldview insisting upon balanced application in both transcendent and temporal affairs, and this perception seems to me to be substantiated by Liber AL. This is why I welcome threads such as this one, that seek to explore the integration these facets of Thelema. 🙂

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 Anonymous
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07/12/2010 3:12 pm  

The improvement in human consciousness alone can improve motive, and therefore policy and politics. Ideology is the way backwards, not forwards - backwards into the supreme divorce from reality (as opposed to the wedding with Her) that characterised the Old Aeon.

How much did the incredible reform along Thelemic lines (the empowerment and unfettering of individuals) made during the 20th century, have to do with exoteric, and ostensibly "Thelemic", political activism ?
___
0 %

Although I am happy to be corrected on this.

And how much did it appear to have to do with sweeping social and technological forces which were long in the making - and simply the timely result of improved consciousness (/awareness/education/knowledge/understanding) technology, and so forth? Martin Luther King - was he a Thelemite?

Which Thelemites were ever successful, and genuine (as in "deliver-the-goods" genuine) political activists who actually made a difference as such?

Upon what facts (evidence) do we base this romantic belief that ostensibly "Thelemic" political activism is necessarily anything more than just a repeat of the mistake of prosetylising the mental illness called ideology? Wasn't the realisation that ideology - any ideology - is death to the living gnosis, indeed to life itself -- isn't this a lesson hard-learned from the -ism apocalypse which we call human history? What was the introduction - part V - to the 1938 edition of Liber Al saying, if not this?


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christibrany
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07/12/2010 5:16 pm  

noc it would be one thing if we all realised ideology is 'death' as you put it, everyone all at once, but until that utopian day unfortunately it seems the ideology that is less inimical to human rights is going to have to be actively pushed against those that thwart others rights and Wills. Unless it is your will to be a slave but most people I doubt really like what is happening to them.

and in terms of this quote 'How much did the incredible reform along Thelemic lines (the empowerment and unfettering of individuals) made during the 20th century, have to do with exoteric, and ostensibly "Thelemic", political activism ?'
I would posit that without the turn of the century spiritual renaissance and Crowley in particular, the 60s freedom and rights movements would not have occurred. So I'd say it had a lot to do with activism in a nascent form.


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