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 Anonymous
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Ok, so this is one of my favorite topics.

Why?

Because the fields overlap and strengthen each other.

First allow me to point out that when I refer to nlp I probably refer to just a subset of what is called nlp in the marketplace. There is a huge amount of sh*t out there sold as nlp. Containing everything from how to get laid by brainwashing girls to screwball theories about the human psyche.

So what I refer to when I talk about nlp is basically the stuff that Grinder and Bandler came up with after their modelling projects in the 1970-s.

So what is nlp then?

Well one way to think about it is that nlp is a set of tools for altering your consciousness. A set of tools for altering your state. A very efficient set of tools - and accessible. In fact I think the tools of nlp are more readily accessible to normal people than the tools from magick.

I think that given this way of considering nlp the overlap with magick should be glaringly obvious. For what is magick if not the ability to alter our state so that we may percieve and interact with stuff that is unreachable in a normal state of mind. (Normal for the normals)

I think this is also worth considering as the gateway to other realities. If someone does a selfhypnosis format once and actually experiences a new reality then it is fairly easy to leave the common one behind and go fot the new stuff again and again.

There is another area of overlap which is quite striking to me. In nlp one works a lot with the communication between the conscious and the unconscious. And views the conscious as a small part of the unconscious. When I have been working with the Daemon I have found the relationship to be exactly the same.

I will mention a third area as well - which is sort of a special technique for developing a number of so-called mystical states very rapidly. It is designed by Connirae Andreas and is called Core transformation. In it one just asks a couple of questions and starts reaching states like "oneness" "Contact with god" etc. The overlap of these states and states sought after through mystical disciplines is enormous.

And - I also have to mention one of the latest developments called

There are also a couple of simplistic nlp tudes that I sometimes find helpful while doing magick. Ferinstance I read a book about the subject some months back and all the while it kept stating that "this is a very difficult thing to achieve so you must really try this very hard ..." well, thinking that way certainly made it so! The tude I am after would probably have said something like "Just notice how this is happening" --- It won't kill all of the birds, but it is sure to hit some!

So - I would hope that someone else who has this overlapping experience of the two fields would care to respond.

Best regards
Noxlux


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faustian
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I was traveling to Lisieux France last year to visit the shrine of Saint Therese. Why is another story? On my way back from the train station I happened to stumble across a new age bookstore specializing in the occult and other related paraphernalia of the bizarre. This ‘librarie’, which smelled of a musk like incense, included the usual sordid nineteenth century and early twentieth century specialists of thaumaturgy including Stanislaus de Guetta, Eliphas Levi, Papus, H.P. Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Gurdjieff, and Ouspensky. But I was surprised to find a recent American addition – Anthony Robbins – magician ‘par excellence’ in the field of neuro-linguistic programming NLP. His grimoire - which comes in the form of 3 CDs - shows that with a few linguistic mind tricks, satanic incantations, and a willingness to give up one’s soul, infinite terrestrial power in the realms of business and love is easily within an individual’s reach. This assumes, of course, that the individual is willing to invest the paltry sum in the instruments needed for this enterprise, without haggling over their price.


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 Anonymous
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While Anthony Robbins certainly is trained in and uses nlp it is a rare occurence that he teaches it - he is more of a motivational speaker salesman hybrid.

I like the scene in BtVS where Spike says to the hybrid demon-dead-body-parts-robot: "You're like Tony Robbins, if he was a big, scary Frankenstein-looking... You're exactly like Tony Robbins."

And yes, I will ramble on a bit more. RIchard Bandler started during the nineties or so to model schamans and regular occultists. (Yes, he knows how to summon goetic entities). And using the nlp modeling streamlined much of the traditionally esoteric practices, thus making them available to others.

I think the proper challenge would be: demonstrate something you can do with magick and I will replicate it with nlp. I am not going to make that challenge - but I think it is thoughtprovoking for people with experience in both disciplines. (as is in some cases the mirror of it).

Noxlux


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Baxian
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Hi Noxlux

"noxlux" wrote:
Ok, so this is one of my favorite topics.
Noxlux

Good to hear. Me to.
Some of the attitude's, as you point, are really valuable to Magic. I agree.
Often people I meet, into anything occult, have a lot of pre-suppositions about magic-What, how and why etc. And they don't realize it that much.

Since I learned NLP about 5 years ago or so. I have been using it to Spice up much of my approach to magic/Mysticism.
I have read Phil Farber talk a lot about the cross over's between Magic(Goetia, Thelema etc.) and NLP. And I think he's really doing great stuff in this area.
I feel that NLP/Magic seems, at least for me, to have become one of the greatest paradigm, (in the sense of pattern), for the revitalising of Magic.
Even more so than Choas Magic,(ok, there's alot of cross-over to be fair).

Because NLP is understood by so many, to be Therapy, bussiness, sports achievement related, and not Magic related, it's free from the boxing in that I notice in many magical groups.
It seems very free, even though so many people don't really get what NLP is about, at it's most basic sense, IMO.

Baxian.


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 Anonymous
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If NLP is relevant to magickal practice can someone give an example of a NLP technique that improves magickal work? Nothing in this thread so far suggests anything that would be useful to magickal work.


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 Anonymous
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Magick overlaps with everything that is possible to do, because every act is a magical act. It should be very important to define terms before bringing up a discussion like this haphazardly. What is it you actually mean by Magick? Since you used the archaic I'll assume you mean Magick according to Crowley's definition. In this sense the only similarity between NLP and Magick is derived from the fact that if every act is a magical one then the universe is magical itself, hence any idea contained within it is such.

Yet, my canon of truth is convenience, and it is simply not convenient in this sort of discussion to leave it at that. True Magick involves working with(or working towards being able to work with) entities/ideas/intelligence not based upon matter or known cerebral structures. This type of Magick is distinct from anything associated with mere hypnotic word-play by human brains and reason.


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 Anonymous
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I will ask the question again. Can someone give me an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual? And how would NLP improve said magickal practice and ritual? No one has given an example of how a 20th century psychological gimmick could improve upon centuries worth of magickal practice. Any takers?


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 Anonymous
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Interesting thread! :). Another of the NLP guys is Dane Spotts. I find his Ultra Meditation series very useful when used in conjuction with, and as a supplement to, Thelemic Magick. Here's more info: http://www.matrixaccess.com/ultra-meditation-system /"> http://www.matrixaccess.com/ultra-meditation-system/


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 Anonymous
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Jan Fries, whose books, to me, do seem worth paying attention to, cites NLP as a technique worth integrating into magical practice. However, looking at some of the Bandler and Grinder texts afterwards, I didn't really see what they were specifically adding - it seemed more a case of restatement in other terms.


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faustian
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NLP is a form of Magick - at the crudest levels.

Its basis is language, or the manipulation thereof. Language controls thought, which controls action, which ultimately controls reality. NLP does however distort the world around oneself – usually to one’s detriment. The feedback loops create a perversion of language – not unlike what we witness in American culture today. The changes in reality are only temporary until equilibrium sets back in, usually with nefarious results.

George Bush and his entourage are great believers in the power of NLP. Had any of them actually studied Magick, they would realize the limitations of NLP. It is perhaps best illustrated by Ron Suskind’s quote from an unnamed aide to the President.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Of course what these guys never realized was that as they were “creating” their own reality, an equally potent opposite reality was also being created – nothing more than the law of Balance in the universe. And this is taking place on many planes, well beyond the simple military conflict.


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 Anonymous
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Well put faustian! The same warnings apply to the use of NLP by the neophyte as apply to the use of magick.

Zain - your question is a good one, but I feel that no one will be able to satisfy it. I firmly understand how NLP is magick.... or rather how NLP is simply a modern discovery of the 'technology' that magick/gnositicism/kabbala/etc... have been trying to teach for milennia. BUT - it's a tough thing to illustrate in a forum post, due to the inner nature of these experiences. For me, magick is work on the self using the tools of language, thought control, self-mind-control, etc... to the goal of making the world around one more satisfactory to one's Will. Now back up and replace 'magick' in that sentence with 'NLP' and it should make perfect sense.

Of course, many here use a different working definition of magick, noteably here KCh above.


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 Anonymous
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I cant agree with the opinion that NLP is magick. Until someone can state that an aspect of NLP can improve upon centuries worth of magickal history and practice , NLP is merely another failed psychological gimmick that the gullible take refuge in.

The closest relation to NLP is actually George Orwells creation "Newspeak" from his novel 1984. This is where a word is corrupted or destroyed to the point where it means nothing. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is for you out there to decide.


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 Anonymous
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I know a lot of people invloved in NLP, I am in Northern California after all and it's powerful stuff. You can learn a lot from it that will certainly help with your Magickal focuses. I incorporate several as "words" and "focusing" are so fundamentally important in both disciplines. I know one of the very top Teachers / Lecturers / Writers in NLP (famous dude) whose wife is my Mom's best freind, very handy, and I will pose this question to him and see what his take is. I will post his reply.


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Baxian
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Hello Zain.

"zain" wrote:
Can someone give me an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual?

Yes I would love to.
Phil gives example's of banishing using some basic NLP methods.
Here is an article by Phil Farber, that may or may not convince you that NLP has something to offer to magical ritual.
http://www.hawkridgeproductions.com/media/hypnomagick.html

As to if NLP can improve magickal practice and ritual?
My feeling is that magical training can always be improved upon and that some of the methods that developed from NLP, do, in my opinion revitalize much magical training from my experience.

Such as anchoring(learning to bring up experience's by using your physiology, as in gestures. And memory. Like in pavlovs experiments with those sometimes baffled, sometimes happy dogs).

Sure this method exist in usual magical training. I simple find NLP to be more explicit in this case.

Another example could be- Perceptual changes. Where you can increase or decrease an experience's impact.
I best not explain how it's done. As it would behoove a person to learn this face to face with a trained NLP person, so as to avoid wasting time by not doing quite right.
Phil Farber's good though, if you must learn it by reading 🙂

Another example. If you want to feel less or no discomfit at a memory. Or more joy with remembered or created experience's.
Think for example of these methods positive effects upon such workings as assumption of god-forms or for banishment of difficult visionary experience's to mention a few things.
Now I'm not saying NLP "is" Magic, or "is" better than magical training.
NLP aint these things really.

First off, it's not about spirit work or cursing or egyptian god forms or blasting rods and magical power.
Though so much of what can be done with NLP could cover these more traditional models.
These methods are not even the "best" NLP methods for getting results. Just some example's.

NLP seems to me, about working out how you get results. What works for you. And to do what you want more effectively. And learning how other people get amazing results(Modeling, the foundation of NLP in my view).

Oddly, this could be said of Crowley's magic, or lots of other systems too.
When NLP's combined with current magical practice it can give some great rewards in my experience.

Hope this helps, and is what you were asking about.

Baxian.


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Baxian
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Hi Faustian.

"faustian" wrote:
Its basis is language, or the manipulation thereof.

I have to disagree with you on this one.

The basis of NLP is Modeling from my understanding.
To be specific, it started with learning how three therapist achieved the amazing "magical" results they were getting.
After this, it was found that these therapist did indeed use Language(among a plethora of other skills) in a special way, that helped effect the positive healing's that these therapist were very much known for.

"faustian" wrote:
NLP does however distort the world around oneself – usually to one’s detriment. The feedback loops create a perversion of language – not unlike what we witness in American culture today. The changes in reality are only temporary until equilibrium sets back in, usually with nefarious results.

I can only presume you might be talking about the changes that can occur by the subtle use of language, from say, hypnotic languages patterns(from Ericksons work). Could you clarify this please?
I'm not sure what you mean by "feedback loops create a perversion of language".
This does not really seem to bring up anything I know from NLP.
Would you elaborate a little?

Cheer
Love, and do what thou wilt.
Baxian.


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 Anonymous
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I basically see the principals used in Modelling in NLP as fundamentally the same as any used in any form of Ritual Practice. Your trying to achieve the same result...personal strength through personal understanding.


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 Anonymous
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What happened with this thread and topic? Here I posted an innocent set of observations ... or so I thought ...

@ Baxian

Regarding Phil Farber I am not to familiar with his work on the topic. I checked out some book he published at least ten years ago and didn't find it enticing.

Has he done more recent work? Anything in particular you would care to recommend?

@ Zain

Give me 5 minutes of your time!

Ok, since I do not know you I cannot guarantee that this experiment will prove useful in YOUR particular case, but if you care to perform it I think you will agree that it will be useful for many practicing occultists.

If you are interested, please follow these instructions:

Just for a moment pause and check out your state in the present point in time.

Now consider a magickal state - a state which you are in while performing magick - perhaps a rare and sought-after state of mind in whcih you were able to accomplish even more than in the usual magickal states of mind.

Preferably this should be a state which you, without using nlp, have to use some time and effort to reach - or even better a state which is normally outside your volunatary ability to reach.

Now please start to breathe in the same way as you did when you were last in´that state. Breathe as you did when you were the strongest into theat state. Breath as if you had already reached that state again. You will find it becomes easier and easier to find that kind of breathing as it moves you towards the state in question.

*5 min break for breathing execises*

Ok, assuming you did the above exercise - I hope it worked. It doesn't always - but the chances are pretty good. If you would care to report your results I would be pleased as a pie.

@Kch

I agree with both your definitions of magick. Everybody is a magickian (when I percieve the universe as one). And in the stricter sense magick is about interacting with occult intelligences. (I would perhaps like to widen the stricter definition to also include occult forces).

To me however the ability to shift my state of consciousness is instrumental and necessary to achieve this - hence the usefulness of "hypnosis".

I would like to add however that I can sometimes look at nlp from the magickal point of view and then it often strikes me as vulgar toying with brains from an unspoken assumption that the plane on which it operates is all there is.

The paradox of that viewpoint - for me - can however be that I have used nlp as a means to reach it. 🙂

@ Faustian

I am reallys surprised that the criminal you name is involved in nlp. Can you quote me a source?

However I think it is also of interest to point out that nlp of course is a technology without values. You can use it for the purposes you see fit. And you can use it in destructive ways (even if you imagine them to be constructive). It is just a set of techniques - not the way, the truth and the life!

"jtm" wrote:
or rather how NLP is simply a modern discovery of the 'technology' that magick/gnositicism/kabbala/etc... have been trying to teach for milennia. BUT - it's a tough thing to illustrate in a forum post, due to the inner nature of these experiences.

@jtm

I found that so well put I wanted to quote it.

A different map for the same territories.

A map which is more efficient to some extent - which is why nlp represents a shortcut in many instances.

A map which does not replace the old ones - if it did I wouldn't bother to read Kenneth Grant.

@Zain

I paraphrase: 'nlp=newsspeak'

the worst part of your statement is that I have met people who makes it very easy to understand why someone can come to such a conclusion.

However While nlp tends to accentuate the a-holeness of a-holes that does not mean the entire field is shit - in fact it contains fertile grounds as well. Hows that for a metafor gone bad?

But seriously: there is good stuff there as well.

Best regards
Noxlu


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 Anonymous
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From the responses given in this thread, nothing has been said which suggests that NLP improves upon the centuries of work put into Magick and its practices. The only thng i seem to see here is a viral advertising campaign attempting to "sell" NLP. And i also stand by my opinion that NLP is merely Orwell's Newspeak under a different name to appeal to New Agers looking for a new fad to cling on to.

On a secondary note why and how does the practice of Magick /Thelema need to be improved upon? There is nothing wrong with the Thelemic or Hermetic system. I cant see how NLP can exceed what is already superior.


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 Anonymous
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"zain" wrote:
From the responses given in this thread, nothing has been said which suggests that NLP improves upon the centuries of work put into Magick and its practices. The only thng i seem to see here is a viral advertising campaign attempting to "sell" NLP. And i also stand by my opinion that NLP is merely Orwell's Newspeak under a different name to appeal to New Agers looking for a new fad to cling on to.

On a secondary note why and how does the practice of Magick /Thelema need to be improved upon? There is nothing wrong with the Thelemic or Hermetic system. I cant see how NLP can exceed what is already superior.

@zain
Before you wrote your reply, were you willing to invest 5 minutes into actually doing the empirical experiment I suggested or did you just reply based on your earlier preconceptions?

A "viral campaign to "sell" NLP" - what can I say? I have no need whatsoever for other people to think like I do*. I do think it is a very interesting intersection. If somone don't like it they don't have to.

"New Agers" - Now that - that is insulting!

As for suchandsuch being a superior system. Frankly I think that if that is the point of view someone comes from then they will be insulted by any suggestion to perform experiments.

But then again this may be because the depths to whcih I have explored the current are to shallow - this I do not know.

Noxulx

*I would expect people involved with the occult to not have to strong such a need for others to think like themselves genreally speaking 'xept if they are gurus of course


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 Anonymous
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A magician always says what a magician means.
Yet a magician never says what a magician means.

So what use are your words?

It seems to me like "NLP" is training an old dog to do a new trick by giving the old trick a new name.


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 Anonymous
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I've dabbled a bit in NLP. Just another tool in the toolbox. Like other tools, it's not the house, but can help you build it a bit faster and easier.
I do like the training it provides of being more aware and taking a bit more responsibilty for your thoughts; which are just as magickally potent, if not more in some instances, than action. Then again, any decent meditation can provide the same.
Your toolbox is never full, though and there is always a gem of wisdom in any technique no matter how dull you think it might be. NLP also gives a little of the physiological science of the magickal thought process, which I love.
The brain may not be the mind, per se, but its a fabulous machine. Dea ex machina! (sic)


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Hi noxlux.

"noxlux" wrote:
@ Baxian
Regarding Phil Farber I am not to familiar with his work on the topic. I checked out some book he published at least ten years ago and didn't find it enticing.
Has he done more recent work? Anything in particular you would care to recommend?

He has a book that should be coming out soon, called Meta-Magick: The Book of Atem.
He says that this book is strongly on an NLP approach to Magick. I'm looking forward to reading it.

His wesite ( http://www.hawkridgeproductions.com/) has article's that he has taken from the above mentioned book.
Some other good articles too on NLP, hypnosis, thelema etc.
The other magician, who's work I like is Jan Fries. He uses NLP alot in his Magick it seems.

Cheers 🙂
Baxian


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Hi Zain.

"zain" wrote:
From the responses given in this thread, nothing has been said which suggests that NLP improves upon the centuries of work put into Magick and its practices.

I'm not interested so much in proving that NLP is great for you.
Like what you like and do what you want.

Someone, may in the future post a thread called "NLP is better than magick and Thelema maaan" but I doubt I will be starting it.

"zain" wrote:
The only thng i seem to see here is a viral advertising campaign attempting to "sell" NLP.

This is disapointing, I was not made aware of any profit I could personally make here!
Seriously!?
Please look to the original post by noxlux, where he asks if those who have have similar "overlapping experience of the two fields..to respond."
You seem to have missed the point of the original question, if you don't mind me saying.
Have you studied NLP?

"zain" wrote:
And i also stand by my opinion that NLP is merely Orwell's Newspeak under a different name to appeal to New Agers looking for a new fad to cling on to.

Newspeak? Really? I'm sorry to hear you have been reading some rubbish books on NLP
From your above statement, I can be forgiven for really wondering if you have read a book on NLP by any experienced authors.
(Get one from a library, it's free. And the "Newspeak" agents 😈 get little or no money.)

"zain" wrote:
On a secondary note why and how does the practice of Magick /Thelema need to be improved upon? There is nothing wrong with the Thelemic or Hermetic system.

Cool man, I'm happy you think so.
I really wonder though, if Thelema and hermeticism or the paths I practice are really completly free from any flaws. (For another thread I think.)

I think the original post was a good one. Magic and NLP as two potentionally useful paths to combine, and for those interested in such to repond.
Cheers.
Baxian


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 Anonymous
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93,

I honestly would not bother responding to zain as he obviously does not want to have a thought out, intelectual conversation & does not want to open his mind just a teeny bit to allow for the fact that there are newer methods that are more efficacious for some people.

I would say that the Hermetic/Occult 'system' isnt a system at all but a label for a plethora of divergent systems that get lumped under the Western Esoteric Tradition label (or something similar like Hermeticism). For many, many, many people these methods do NOT work, or simply do NOT resonate. Many people do not like the Hebrew intonations, the Christian archangels, or the ridiculous pantomiming that accompanies many older methods. NLP is obviously a newer method with a slightly different goal and a different means of achieving that goal than traditional Occult methods.

Language has an effect on how we perceive reality - anyone not aware of these ideas should read about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis . Magick utilizes this as well when using Barbarous Words to get into an occult state of mind, using only certain words to channel the consciousness in a certain direction (like Enochian, for example), etc.

The overlap seems to be obvious that Magick is simply The Science & Art of causing Change in conformity with Will. If one is using NLP to cause Change in conformity with one's Will (especially to 'improve' one's self or one's life), it seems painfully obvious that this should be classed under a type of Magick.

65 & 210,
111-418


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 Anonymous
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I have repeatedly put forward the question: How does NLP better or improve Magick and the only responses have been vague or have descended to trolling. I am just asking a legitimate question. How does NLP improve the practice of ritual magick? The thread so far hasnt done this effectively. I read over the wikipedia article but i dont see how that hypothesis is an argument that its a reflection of magickal ritual.

I still stand by my opinion that NLP is not relevant to occult work and is nothing more than a psychological fad to be added to the others .


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 Anonymous
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"zain" wrote:
I have repeatedly put forward the question: How does NLP better or improve Magick and the only responses have been vague or have descended to trolling. I am just asking a legitimate question. How does NLP improve the practice of ritual magick? The thread so far hasnt done this effectively. I read over the wikipedia article but i dont see how that hypothesis is an argument that its a reflection of magickal ritual.

I still stand by my opinion that NLP is not relevant to occult work and is nothing more than a psychological fad to be added to the others .

Listen: yeah, your question is legitimate.

I offered a five minute empirical experiment you could perform to figure out for yourself if there was anything to whatever it is that we are talking about. You did not bother to comment my suggestion explicitly, and given the tone of your reply I assume you didn't bother to try it out, but instead opted to classify my suggestion as "vague" or "trolling". - Fine, we all make our choices.

But I have to ask you this: if you are not willing to seriously consider a reply; what happens with the legitimacy of your question.

As far as I am concerned further debate seems rather fruitless.

All the best
Noxlux


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 Anonymous
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Well

If you have the time, and if you dont mind here's an article that might explain how NLP can improve magick alot

http://dreamflesh.com/essays/nlpmagick/

There is actually a new "sytem" called New Hermetics, based on... you guessed it, Hermetics+NLP

http://www.servantsofthelight.org/events/pdf/New%20Hermetics%20Workshop.pdf


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 Anonymous
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"wolf354" wrote:
Greetings
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

I have a strong feeling against NLP... but not like Zain. I can't really understand is definition of Ritual Magick and what kind of answers is he looking for.

But my feeling comes from the lack of preparation (mental, physical and more...) that a NLP practicioner takes before jumping into different states of mind.
If one's practicing Asana in the Dragon Posture the physical endurance and will strenght are aquired before you reach the desired state.

With NLP you just have to listen to a record for a few hours and things will move very quickly leaving the practicioner most of the times not prepared to accept and enjoy the "achievement".

Sure there can be examples of people who perform NLP succefully, but I doubt that this will be the case for many people who've tried these new techniques.

Love is the law, love under will
Best regards

...and all the occultists you've met aren't unbalanced/jumping into things? How many people try age old occult techniques and are jumping into completely foreign territory with no preparation. Teh only situation you are describing are people who happen to find Crowley's Liber E and do it before other work...

"Kiyoharu" wrote:
Well

If you have the time, and if you dont mind here's an article that might explain how NLP can improve magick alot

http://dreamflesh.com/essays/nlpmagick/

There is actually a new "sytem" called New Hermetics, based on... you guessed it, Hermetics+NLP

http://www.servantsofthelight.org/events/pdf/New%20Hermetics%20Workshop.pdf

Many thanks for the first link/article - very well written.

65 & 210,
111-418


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Baxian
(@baxian)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 74
 

Hi Wolf354
You say-

"wolf354" wrote:
I have a strong feeling against NLP...
my feeling comes from the lack of preparation (mental, physical and more...) that a NLP practicioner takes before jumping into different states of mind.
If one's practicing Asana in the Dragon Posture the physical endurance and will strenght are aquired before you reach the desired state.

This is an interesting point you make.
In any good NLP trainings that I know about, not so much preperation, but rather, ecological attitude's, are kind of hardwired into the training. It serve a similar purpose as preparation IMO.
There is a lot of mind training. Like in the buddhist sense of "right think". -That is, thinking that focus's you on flexability, freedom and creative attitude's that can help you get some very good results.
Sure NLP is not idiot proof...completely.
There's some real idiot's out there using NLP. It can be kind of funny in a sad way.
From my experience, there is a lot of mental training that exist in the good NLP course's I know of.

"wolf354" wrote:
With NLP you just have to listen to a record for a few hours and things will move very quickly leaving the practicioner most of the times not prepared to accept and enjoy the "achievement".

NLP is more than listening to CD's.
Yeah, cd's are are often not a great way to go, with regards to "NLP therepy" applications IMO.
I would not be keen to try the Goetia on CD either though! 🙂
NLP can be very powerful. But good training often makes for good practitioner's.

Love, and do what thou wilt.
Baxian


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Topic starter  

@wolf

"brainwave patterns through sound" - while this may in some sense be correct; if I talk to you I probably induce new brainwave patterns I sort of have never understood that to be the essence of nlp.

My take on it is also that it may be used for whatever purposes, that it doesn't have an ideological basis.

I absolutely agree with you regarding the danger of using nlp to create a state one cannot handle - whether this be because one has not prepared oneself or because one disregards the warning signals given by ones body and unconsciousness.

I suppose quite a percentage of nlpers have once or twice done something utterly stupid like pumping up a state which was entirely inappropriate or something.

I also think that listening to a record is a way of doing nlp which is not so clever - a record pumping on with stateinductive words has not got the wisdom to stop, like a human has if he sees that the subject has a strong negative response to something.

Feedback and awareness is sort of essential in order to accomplish what onewants instead of its opposite.

Noxlux


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Fantastic stuff Kiyoharu. So far it looks like I am picking the very best disciplnes.


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 Anonymous
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Looks like I'm picking wisely... brilliant articles Kiyoharu


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 Anonymous
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Operator error...repeated myself


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Kiyoharu - the article you provided was interesting.

Though it still does not destory my idea that it is just a new way of packageing old ideas.

While going through the exercises in Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon, I developed a system of "linguistical programming" that is very similar to what NLP seems to emphasize. At this point, it does not add anything to my personal work, but it can be put to use.

If it pleases you, all my blessings 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I suddest you read "Tricks of the Mind" by Derren Brown. He has a lot to say about NLP and the new age in general.
Best Wishes Robert.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Topic starter  
"wolf354" wrote:
Greetings
When I write about brainwave patterns I am not referring to spoken words, I am talking about the new interesting techniques of using unbalanced rythms between your left and right ear that produce virtual images in your brain leading to some specific behaviours in the brain (like reminding dreams).

I have fun with some of Paul Scheele records (among others) but I don't really know if he is a NLP practicioner or not.

Your description of NLP reminds me of Reiki...

Love is the law, love under will
Best regards

afaik binaural techniques have absolutely no basis in nlp.

also afaik Reiki hasn't either ... so my description must be misleading.

Noxlux

Hot tip: If you are into pathworking then you should check out zgjidhja which has resulted in spontaneous pathworkings and explorations of kabbalistic realities each of the couple of times I have experimented with it. Zgjidhja is not presented as nlp, but as far as I can discern that is what it is. It has it's roots in the so called 3D-mind technology which was basically NLP with another name for marketing purposes.

Unfortunately it can be tough finding info about it ... the homepage at http://www.zgjidhja.com/ reveals little to those not fluent in - I don't even know which language that is.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I'll try to put it simply for Zain :

"How does NLP improve the practice of Ritual Magick"

NLP does what Magick does already, or is capable of being done with Magick. Thus, it doesn't improve it, it is simply another approach to the same thing, without the esoteric windowdressing/self-hypnosis.

If you're doing Magick successfully, you're already doing NLP. If you're doing NLP successfully, you don't need magick.

It's like asking 'how does an electric razor improve the performance of a Gilette disposable'. It doesn't. It replaces it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Google sends me information on N.L.P. and through this I have learned of this site.
The quality of the content is truly excellent, the statements made so sound in structure.
My work with NLP as a psychologist in London USA Spain Mexico and now Thailand. has been enormously successful in helping people to make required changes in their self-abuse habits. Their life problems.

In education NLP is in use by modern teachers in aiding students with the tough task of learning a 2nd. language. We feel in the NLP communities out side of the Fortune 500 companies that NLP is unknown.
The google snippits I get are 90% salespitches for training looking for biz-students

NLP is mainly in the hands of people who use it mainly for material gain. This to me is so sad because it is worthy of much more research.

It is very tough indeed to move minds within Health/Education away from procedure that are not as effective as cognitive psychology.

Methods that are magic are not acceptable. In Health it is too fast and consultants cannot earn sufficient.

In education executives are older teachers and 'know best' using tried and tested methods.
Big problem is the 'doff-cap' attitude towards doctor/ teacher by most.

Thus any route towards an awakening within the Health/Education 'establishment' would be welcome.

I felt that some of the comments here in this forum were not truly repreresentative of NLP thus damaging our attempts to gain some progress. Maybe this 'thinking community' could help us journey on Trevor CEO 'Healthwatch a UK reg. Natural health research charity


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I have to disagree with you jtm. NLP is not Magick in any sense of the word. I repeatedly asked the question : How does NLP improve upon centuries of ritual magick practice? And the only responses i got were vague and unrelated to the thread. To me this thread is nothing more than viral marketing for NLP courses and books. A Thelemite has no need for NLP since they are already doing their will regrdless of environment.

Is this thread saying that NLP is superior to the principles given in Liber AL? I think not.

I look forward to the "NLP guide to goetic conjuration"soon....... 😆


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Topic starter  
"zain" wrote:
I repeatedly asked the question : How does NLP improve upon centuries of ritual magick practice? And the only responses i got were vague and unrelated to the thread.

*Cough* BS! *Cough*


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 Anonymous
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Zain, I didn't say they were the same thing! Read my post again. They accomplish the same end, using much of the same 'science'. They are alternatives, not the same thing.

That being said, I think noxlux put it well. There's been some excellent insight in this thread. It seems you may have something against NLP, which is not surprising, given the sharlatans that practice it all over. However, understand that what is nowadays called 'NLP' is a new categorizatoin of techniques that have been known for centuries if not milennia.

Much like the bliss of tantric sex (my favorite topic) is now starting to be explained biologically and neurologically, enabling us to dispense with all the religious and cultural mumbo-jumbo around it; so is magick now being explained scientifically by things like NLP. Non-dual awareness (yoga) is now being explained in terms of quantum theory and the consciousness/energy connection. etc.. etc...

So right - if you've mastered magick, you'll have no need for 'plain old' NLP. If you've only mastered NLP, you're probably not as capable or actualized as a magus, becuase magick encompasses much more, not just seducing dimwitted nightclub girls or closing sales deals. Similarly, if you master tantric techniques, you can have great and satisfying sex, but you won't have the experiences that you would have if you followed the path of tantra yoga, which gives you much more in the way of the mind/energy/god continuum.

So you're right, NLP is not magick. And it's not necessarily a help to magickal practice, unless one's magickal practice is utterly devoid of the things that NLP teaches. If that's the case, then your magickal practice is probably a non-starter anyway.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"zain" wrote:
Is this thread saying that NLP is superior to the principles given in Liber AL? I think not.

Zain, I do not understand your aggression towards NLP. No-one is saying that it is superior to Thelemic magick. No-one is saying that it is superior to what is imparted in Liber AL. Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - in this thread have I seen anybody assert these things. Thus your argument is somewhat surreal.

Some people find NLP useful. Others don't. What's your beef, exactly?


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 Anonymous
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Why does anyone even bother with zain? Forget about his lack of ability to read the many many posts that answered his questions many times over and continue with the thread.

To the actual NLP practitioner I give you a hearty welcome and 93! I would like to hear about some success (and perhaps failure) stories of NLP... also your work with yourself and NLP.

65 & 210,
111-418


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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Posts: 375
 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I’ve never heard of NLP till I read this thread. And I have read it thoroughly, and the links!

Many of the methods I myself have used for years, not in ritual work---but in what I will call my “reveries”--- comprises the use of intricate memory task----going back into incidents that happened in my childhood; which would eventually lead to the big S and D as described by the Hindu yoga treatises. Not only are these reveries a mental panorama of things that happened so long ago, but the actual conversations, sounds etc that accompanied such events. Example: If I wanted to remember something particular that happened to me at the age of six, I would focus on something I did remember, then add specific visuals—an apple, a tree, a rainy day etc,--until it would trigger another recollection of something that occurred,---anon, anon. If that is a form of NLP, then it is no thing really new. Perhaps it means someone has found a way to commercialize and “sell” some of the natural functions of the minds capability! I will admit, that the process I used, is an exceptional “conditioner” for the mind---no matter if it be called NLP or by another name. I do not see why one should have to pay money for courses though.

If I would employ such techniques during an actual ritual, it would totally distract me from what I was doing! For some it might work, but not for me. For me, it is certainly not necessitated.
This does not mean that it is useless for another—if that’s what works and actually helps—fine then.
You can offer me every CD and book written about NLP—and a free course to boot, --OR-- Magick in Theory and Practice, and you know what I am going to accept from you: though I have my copy already. I would accept even`The Grimoirium Verum” and make better use of it!
As a method to augment one’s training—quite possible. As a true and valid system of Magick as I recognize and have experienced it ---No! as far as I am concerned.
If though, someone receives the same results with it as the tried and true “old school methods” or better, then Yes! as far as they are concerned.

Would I say to anyone that it is a waste of time to look at it if they never heard of it, of course not! By all means, try it. No thing wrong with having a mind open to new or different things; or learning/and/or trying them.

Love is the law, love under will.


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 74
 

Hi Zain

"A Thelemite has no need for NLP since they are already doing their will regrdless of environment."
What do you mean? regardless of "environment".
A thelemite can do as he she please's. Chanting Hari krishna, putting precious stones on their Chakras,(and feeling the vibes lol), or goetic evocation, or...even NLP.
Your attitute seems curious for a thelemite.

"zain" wrote:
Is this thread saying that NLP is superior to the principles given in Liber AL? I think not.

Since you bring it up.
I shall introduce this idea, I think.
In many ways, I consider certain NLP principle to be superior to certain principle in Liber Al, as I understand them currently. Specifically, stuff on seemingly suggested ways to act.(some of the lest insteresting stuff in that most curious book for me).
Note the discussion, "master and Slave". And various "enlightened" principles there. "Strike hard and low and to hell with them..." Hmmmm, lol.

"zain" wrote:
I look forward to the "NLP guide to goetic conjuration"soon....... 😆

Haha.
Funny you say that.
On that note, something similar, related and inspired(inpart) by Goetic evocation, may be coming out soon. With NLP being the foundation of the system, as far as I understaind it.
Baxian.


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Posts: 74
 

Reading your post Michael...I had a good laugh.

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
No-one is saying that it is superior to what is imparted in Liber AL. Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - in this thread have I seen anybody assert these things. Thus your argument is somewhat surreal.

Good point.
Untill now...
...in some small way...
It's as if there has been a "glitch in the Matrix". lol
I seem to have ridden a wave of the surreal. 😆
Baxian


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Hi Michael.

If my writing style comes across has aggressive , i apologise to the forum. I was only trying to get definite answer to my question. The thread seems to have a lot of defenders of NLP without actually showing how NLP actually helps magickal practice. The responses i got were either vague or bordered on trolling. To me it was like a parody of a viral marketing campaign.

If some people want to have NLP has a security blanket then so be it. But personally i dont feel that NLP is relevant to a practising Thelemite. If they are already doing their will, then the idea that they would need something vague and undefined has NLP seems strange. Just an opinion.


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Baxian
(@baxian)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 74
 

Hi Aum418

"Aum418" wrote:
To the actual NLP practitioner I give you a hearty welcome and 93! I would like to hear about some success (and perhaps failure) stories of NLP... also your work with yourself and NLP.

I have also personally been practicing NLP for about 5 years, and used/use it extensively. I really value it.
What I found I could do with it Magical was fairly broad.

I have used it to increase the effectiveness of Banishing rituals, scrying, entity work, various assumption technique, and for all sorts really.
Also made some odd uses of sorcery/time related methods.

When I have used NLP to help other's in a therapy sense, I have had results ranging from average(difficult to tell) to great success!(as Borat says) and also outright nothing (Basically when I began. On some occations. Because the persons problem was fucken difficult to me at the time 😆 having to do with my limited flexiblity with different methods, and lack of experience in therapy. As happens to most beginning practitioners).

I have used an NLP technique to take a person into a "past life(most NLP practitions have likely done this), which they believed in, though I was quitely undecided.
None the less they claimed it made a big difference for them, for the better.
In the past I have had some very strange experience's, with having been taken through certain NLP methods. On a few occations they gave me the impression of entity work. It was similar to demonic evocation(within western Magic).

My current interest's are quite a few with regards to NLP and Magick.
Spirit work(which I frame differently sometimes, as "parts" or "aspect" if I want to get certain result, quicker), is an area that is of such excellent use I find. When working with difficult situations or attempting to deal with "demons".

The methods I use from NLP, like any good technology take some time to get good at obviously.
Some NLP techniques seems almost like a sleight of hand. And to me apear more in line with Spare, than much traditional Ceremonial Magic of the west, in some crucial ways.

I'm not sure, if it has been said but, I think it's worth mentioning. That the process's of creating the technique's that most people think is NLP, come largely from "Modeling".
Which is a series of methods for finding out how a person gets amazing results. It's very precise.
A funny story in fact is when Bandler(one of the founders of NLP) says he went to different parts of the world and learned from Yogi/Magicians etc.

He says that he was able to decrease the time it took, to learn certain mystical/magical techniques(because of his modeling abilities). In some case's from 10-12 years or longer(he claim's certain yogis said) to a few sessions. This he says he achieved, after a little threatening of the yogi with a large stick. Very Zen!..lol

Baxian.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"Baxian" wrote:
Good point.
Untill now...
...in some small way...

Yes, I did notice that shortly after I asserted ssomething, the ground was cut from under me. Say lavee, as the French mutter when they're busting. Like you, I find those particular aspects of Liber AL the least interesting (see my meanderings in another thread) and not for me the core of the Book. So despite the temporary glitch in the matrix, the Temple remains intact.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4119
 
"wolf354" wrote:
Just watched one of Judith Lowe workshops on video... well only half of it. My comment... Zain was right, the video is horrible. . .

Not sure how appropriate it is to damn the whole of NLP on the basis of one person's presentation of it, wolf. Similarly, there are some people operating in the Thelemic community who, if you thought them representative, might lead you to take a dim view of Thelema. Like many a topic, I'm sure that NLP is championed by the good, the bad and the indifferent.

🙂


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