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NLP and magick

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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 74
 

Wolf354.
I agree with Michael.

Unfortunately, I have meet a lot of people who present thelema in a boring and uninspiring was. But so what, you know?

"wolf354" wrote:
True that her presence is awfull... but she does explain most of the theories surrounding NLP... until I've got bored..

I have seen some really tedious books and presentations on NLP too. I avoid them. They are the school teachers ๐Ÿ˜† .
She doesn't speak for NLP.

Did you know, one of the founders of NLP, Richard Bandler, seems to claim to have developed an even more effective technology that NLP?
He's also very critical of the bad training out there and the amount of clueless NLP practitioner's who think they are the best thing since sliced bread...you get that.

Baxian


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"zain" wrote:
..., then the idea that they would need something vague and undefined has NLP seems strange. Just an opinion.

This is just a mind-blowingly ignorant comment, I'm sorry. Calling NLP vague and undefined just shows that you haven't actually studied it. It is a very specific set of tools that yield very specific demonstrable results, from seducing people, to making you actually think you want the lousy cheap birthday gift I got you, to stopping smoking, to getting yourself a raise, etc. etc. etc.

Zain - if you have no need of it, that's fine. Understand however that it is not without value for others. Minds are like parachutes. Keep yours open, because the ground is approaching fast.

Plus, if you reject it so ferociously, you are actually opening yourself up to being manipulated by it!


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templumkat
(@templumkat)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 27
 

Hi all

I should lay out my relevant background for this thread, albeit a little self-proclaiming, it's important for what follows - I am a Magician who has worked with ritual and magick for twenty-five years, and I am also a licensed NLP Trainer with the Society of NLP (founded by Richard Bandler, one of the two co-developers of NLP). I have also trained several times with Richard Bandler, and John Grinder, the other co-developer of NLP, and a few other of the major names in NLP - Doug O'Brien (Sleight of Mouth), and Stephen Gilligan (who studied under Milton H. Erickson, one of the three therapists modelled by Bandler and Grinder in the development of NLP). I've been interested in both subjects and experimenting with them for twenty years, and have a library of several thousand books on both subjects. I also teach both - separately.

They are not the same thing - NLP is described as an attitude that leaves behind it a trail of techniques; that attitude is about (amongst other things), flexibility, choice, freedom, and the ability of the mind to free itself from the constraints of the mind - through language, representation, metaphor, and strategies. In that, there is an overlap with the aim of Magick if that is described as becoming more (than) human. To encourage the individual to recognise their own limitations, and the constraints of others, encourages internal communication and improves communication with others. To 'model' excellence in another and teach it to others or oneself is very useful, but not essential to any Magickal Goal.

NLP techniques can be used to help people overcome beliefs; in this they can also be used in some magickal practice - I teach casting circles for example with multiple representation systems, (i.e. sound and colour) but then I use my knowledge of NLP to find a 'kicker' modality for that specific individual which really makes their circle as effectively created as they wish it to be. I also use hypnotic language patterns in invocations, and other NLP techniques modelled from hypnosis to bring about alteration of my state or the state of others.

If I didn't know NLP, I guess I'd just try different ways of teaching them, without much idea that they may not even need to 'see' the circle. You don't get that in the manuals on magick! Some people will know this and teach this without NLP, so again, there is no neccessary requirement for NLP knowledge to be a better teacher or more flexible circle caster!

I've read Farber and Hine and Lee and others but remain unconvinced myself that the relationship between Magick and NLP is as obvious as they propose. I note that one of the links provided in this thread led to a pamphlet on NLP & Magick by someone "trained in Huna" and with a "PhD in Esoteric Studies at the Pacific University". A Google Search will reveal how easy those titles are to come by from that institution, which is not recognised even in US Academia, never mind this country! No wonder both NLP & Magick are sometimes treated like snake oil!

A number of NLP Trainers I've seen (and Farber himself has a video of it on the Web) use simple stage magick tricks (like leveraging your arms when being lifted) as 'demonstrations' of the 'power of NLP' or 'magickal thinking' to influence reality. These are demonstrations of someone having contempt for their audience, ignorance in themselves, or plain lying, in my opinion.

There's probably more links between stage magic and NLP than Magick and NLP! In fact, someone on this thread mentioned Derren Brown? I do one of his tricks as a party-piece (using 'enhanced NLP sensory acuity to read minds') but I assure you it's nothing to do with NLP - Brown's real trick is to use NLP and Mentalism as a distraction to quite old tricks (I've seen his stage show). But that's fine, as long as you don't get confused about it and believe you can do similar things with NLP (although I've seen one very good NLP person do so, read colours in your mind by observing subtle body cues, for example). But none of that is Magick in my book.

NLP is not really that new - read J. G. Bennett on "How We Do Things" to find all sorts of things 'discovered' in NLP, similarly Rudolph Steiner and many others. Even the name is a re-package of 'hypnosis' (which was originally termed by Braid 'Neuro-Hypnosis', and Hypnosis is 'linguistic programming' after all). However, it is exciting that certain techniques taught in NLP do allow people who would not attend a course on ritual or meditation to start to question their own representation of the world as being authoritative. That's a good thing, IMHO.

Who said the mind must be expanded to comprehend the mysteries, and not the mysteries reduced to fit into the mind? That's my take on it.

NLP does not teach 'self-awareness' although that may be implied by the teachings (which are not standardised, I can only talk from the courses I've been on over the years) and neither does it generally touch on self-transcendence as a goal - NLP logical or neurological levels are merely more maps to attempt to contextualise NLP in a wider frame-work and answer criticisms of its earliest formulations.

I have met very few NLP-trained folk who I would describe as "Wow!" - most become downright obnoxious and attempt to paper over their insecurities with their new-found abilities to "communicate", leading to the accusation of NLP = Neurotic Lonely People. However, Bandler is what I would describe as a truly maverick genius, and very entertaining - in that sense, very Thelemic, and Grinder is very precise and structured in his approach to helping people change and better communicate. He certainly reminded me that words are magick.

But then again I've met very few Magicians who I would admire for their wisdom, presence and knowledge - but then, I don't get out much - "The Worker is Hidden in the Workshop".

In the Great Work

TemplumKat


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

This is the last time i 'll reply on this particular thread since it hasnt backed up its initial premise of "NLP and Magick".

jtm i have read over the material regarding NLP and to be honest i stand by my opinion that its just another pointless psychological fad for people who lack direction in life. At no time in this thread has anyone put over how NLP is relevant or beneficial to Magick , Thelema or Crowley. All we have had is defenders of the NLP saying how "nice" it is. Even if it is "nice", to me personally being a Thelemite i cant see how NLP would improve Thelemic practice. And i can say with confidence that the NLP advocates would not be able to do so either. I will say it again, when a Thelemite is doing their will, fads like NLP are pontless and irrelevant.

Maybe the Lashtal forums are not the best place for the "benefits" of NLP. To give the forum members some idea of what to expect from a NLP "seminar" i include a website address:

http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?p=26695&sid=dd96f8ad5b11a5ac0947dd8d46fed3d9

This will give you an idea of what NLP does to people.....


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"zain" wrote:
This is the last time i 'll reply on this particular thread since it hasnt backed up its initial premise of "NLP and Magick".

jtm i have read over the material regarding NLP and to be honest i stand by my opinion that its just another pointless psychological fad for people who lack direction in life. At no time in this thread has anyone put over how NLP is relevant or beneficial to Magick , Thelema or Crowley. All we have had is defenders of the NLP saying how "nice" it is. Even if it is "nice", to me personally being a Thelemite i cant see how NLP would improve Thelemic practice. And i can say with confidence that the NLP advocates would not be able to do so either. I will say it again, when a Thelemite is doing their will, fads like NLP are pontless and irrelevant.

Maybe the Lashtal forums are not the best place for the "benefits" of NLP. To give the forum members some idea of what to expect from a NLP "seminar" i include a website address:

http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?p=26695&sid=dd96f8ad5b11a5ac0947dd8d46fed3d9

This will give you an idea of what NLP does to people.....

Page 20 of a Tony Robbins thread will give us an idea of what NLP does to people? NLP isnt for everyone just like 'Magick' or Thelema isnt for everyone. There has been plenty of evidence of how NLP can help your Magick, and no one claimed that a Thelemite doing their will would use it (perhaps at that point it would cease to become a 'tool' and simply be a part of that persons innate skills). Really, NLP is used under different names in certain occult techniques (I think it was Uni Verse who said a similar idea arose from studying Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics) and so I might agree that its teh old packaged in the new, but so what? Thelema is in many ways the old packaged in the new with some extra little bits thrown in. I find your myopia amusing that you cannot find any response worthy of your praise, even though many people have said many times over the benefits and given links explaining it. It seems you are reading these things with the idea that 'NLP is so lame and doesnt need to be used in Magick' already in your head so you cant seem to find anything to answer your question. The very fact that people are utilizing ideas and abilities under will to cause change in conformity with that Will tells me that it is a form of Magick, although perhaps 'repackaged' in non-occult terms. Obviously you see no need for this system but many others do see the need and obviously have experienced benefit from using this.

65 & 210,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"zain" wrote:
I will ask the question again. Can someone give me an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual?quote]

For you, Zain, in your practice I think NLP would be utterly useless, as you so rightly suspect. It's unlikely that you would be able to even find the basic books, and if you did you wouldn't want to invest the money in acquiring them. If you did get hold of some of the basic literature you wouldn't read it and, if you did, you probably would be unable to understand it. If you did read up and get a general feel of the field there would be no reason for you to start experimenting with the ideas, even just for amusement or out of sheer devilment. So there's no way you would ever get any useful results that you could then take and apply to your daily magickal work.

So, no, I can't give an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual - for you. My strong recommendation is that you stay well away from the whole thing. Hope that's helpful.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

It would bge fair to say then like many other things out there, for some it can help and for others it can't. There are pearls of wisdom in many areas and AC for sure knew that being as he looked in so many places himself...


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this forum! I found it today.

This thread is highly interesting to me as I have about 10 years of NLP experience including a Master Prac with Richard Bandler and some courses with John Grinder as well (the two founders of NLP), and about 5 years of magick experience including tarot and rune work, ceremonial magick a la GD (not much into Thelema so much yet, although some of AC's work is really good, and I'm owning and reading a few Kenneth Grant books which I really like)... and I have performed literally hundred of evocations etc.

I REALLY recommend everyone to try noxlux's little exercise. Come on, you have 5 mins don't you?

Templumkat gave a magnificent answer and so far no one has commented on it... why?

What I'd like to do is make a list of typical "parts" of NLP - techniques, concepts, etc. I'd also make a list of required skills/abilities and beliefs in Magick.

Then for each part on one list, I'd see how I could use some or all of the parts of other list to improve it.

Anyone game for that? I'm surely better suited for listing parts on the NLP list, I'm sure, but just for a sample, how about:

NLP stuff:
submodalities
belief
perceptual positions

Magick stuff:
astral sight
powerful invocation skill
strong will

Combining them up then...

Submods: Use them to describe the astral visions to aid in knowing that one actually sees something and what specifically one does see. Use them to amp up the kinestethic components of the invocations and any visual parts (like visualizing the god form etc). Not sure how to use submods to improve strength of will..

Beliefs: Change your beliefs to KNOW that you can see well astrally. KNOW that you can totally invoke that force. Will.. hmmm... I guess in some sense WILL actually is partly the ability to change one's beliefs... but not only that.

The other way, one could use one's improved astral sight to make better beliefs shifts using submodality stuff a la Bandler etc.
etc etc etc...

Just some examples.. I'd love if some experienced magicians could fill this list of more stuff which is NECESSARY and SUFFICIENT to be a reallllly good magician.

(Hey, I'm modeling, the core of NLP!)

Thank you for having me here.

Grab


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 375
 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Hello and welcome Grab!

Yours is the first post on this subject that gives practical applications of using NLP in conjunction with Magickal workings, and not just extolling the virtues of NLP!

Some qualities needed or useful for the practice of Magick:

Imagination

A sense of wonder

discipline

courage

some amount of intellectual capacity

sense of purpose

some amount of artistic and creative talent

a focused mind

confidence

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I would like to recommend a book - The New Hermetics, Jason Augustus Newcomb. Published by Weiser. Foreword by Lon Milo DuQuette.

"New Hermetics is a rich blend of timeless wisdom, fusing traditional teachings on alchemy, tarot, and Qabalah with the best of modern thought on neuro- linquistic programming and the work of C.G. Jung, Wilhelm Reich, and Timothy Leary. An excellent tool for the modern spiritual seeker, Newcomb's fresh approach to magick is both spiritually profound and eminently practical." Christopher Penczak

"By twining Leary, NLP, Jung, Reich, and a dash of Robert Anton Wilson with the symbols, rituals, and methods of magick, Jason Newcomb updates magick for todays mind and fulfills the promise of these modern insights by giving the practitioner the means to apply them." Sam Webster

I have not yet read this book but I did look at the pictures and it looks good. I have downloaded some really good Bandler stuff. I am really getting into hypnosis now. I also found an interesting site for hypno fetishists called Warpmymind and you can download free erotic trance files. Some pretty sick stuff. I like Richard Bandler he seems to be really cool. I want to try the instant handshake trance on someone. Go to sleep. He says the words -your unconscious- is a command to help go into trance. NLP is just like the latest hypnosis methods it uses words to invoke trance. And in trance you can program and reprogram your behavior according to your will or maybe someone elses ๐Ÿ˜‰ Richard Bandler says in his video that NLP is something he made up. It is my will to learn more on this subject hypnotism.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

this thread reminded of few pdf's i bought when researching people that kG talks about in typhonian series. If into nlp, ect. you''ll find great information in these writings. Also Zivorad has a fiction book about aivaz quite delightful.

zivorad mihajlovic slavinski work....

http://www.spiritual-technology.com/eng/index1.php?_link=techniques/contents.php


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 856
 

I have a dear friend and fellow intrepid psychotropic explorer who is very deeply into the NLP.
I must say that I've observed his techniques in several aspects of NLP therapy, and what I saw appeared to involve hypnosis techniques in order to "get" people to where they could transcend their self-imposed modalities. (def. modalities: the qualification in a logical proposition that indicates that what is affirmed or denied is possible, impossible, necessary, contingent, etc.) Now I don't personally have an objection to hypnosis, it's useful in certain situations and therapies, but it's something that I think should be consentual, and I've seen people "tricked" (although they didn't have objection when it was pointed out to them after the fact), so I personally won't have anything to do with it.

Frankly, a lot of what I read in this thread reminds me of Scientology, not NLP...


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 74
 

Hi

"Walterfive" wrote:
Now I don't personally have an objection to hypnosis, it's useful in certain situations and therapies, but it's something that I think should be consentual, and I've seen people "tricked" (although they didn't have objection when it was pointed out to them after the fact), so I personally won't have anything to do with it.

You wont have anything to do with hypnosis becasue some people use it to manipulate other people?
You dont practice magick then I hope... ; )
Many have said the hypnosis or more properly perhaps, trance is a naturally occuring experience(Erickson).
If someone knows how to manipulate others with it, as I have observed on one or two occations, I think its useful to know when someone is trying it on. Normally its quite easy to detect because of the watch on the chain. haha

Frankly, a lot of what I read in this thread reminds me of Scientology, not NLP...

How so?
I have notice that within scientology, seem to be some basic gimmicks to manipulate(help?) its members, using language. (It would be a stretch to call it NLP, I think). Some form of hypnosis or careful use of language manipulation rather, would seem more correct. Like using pressupositions, and telling the person to answer the question in a very limited manner.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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This is the last time i 'll reply on this particular thread since it hasnt backed up its initial premise of "NLP and Magick".

You have all my thanks. Promise?

i have read over the material regarding NLP and to be honest i stand by my opinion that its just another pointless psychological fad for people who lack direction in life. At no time in this thread has anyone put over how NLP is relevant or beneficial to Magick , Thelema or Crowley. All we have had is defenders of the NLP saying how "nice" it is. Even if it is "nice", to me personally being a Thelemite i cant see how NLP would improve Thelemic practice. And i can say with confidence that the NLP advocates would not be able to do so either. I will say it again, when a Thelemite is doing their will, fads like NLP are pontless and irrelevant.

Maybe the Lashtal forums are not the best place for the "benefits" of NLP. To give the forum members some idea of what to expect from a NLP "seminar" i include a website address:

http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?p=26695&sid=dd96f8ad5b11a5ac0947dd8d46fed3d9

This will give you an idea of what NLP does to people.....

Or perhaps that should be "people do to themselves using NLP", because after all NLP doesn't jump up and bite anyone, does it? You can always walk away and ignore it.

Well Zain, I think I've suggested that you ignore NLP at least once before, but you insist on coming back with your typical argument, which boils down to saying "You either agree with me or you're against me" - and you've put forth this view about Andrew Chumbley and numerous other topics. Do you find that dualistic attitude useful? I'm not so sure I do - it could make a person look a little argumentative, if indeed not actually a committed troll.

If you're insisting that we all limit ourselves to taking a "for-or-against" view, then OK, I can do that.

Let's take as a for-instance Jan Fries; he's intelligent , witty, funny, insightful, a highly skilled magician, a great writer and a great artist as well as being a hardcore, card-carrying doer of his own Will. Having seen Fries do his stuff at a couple of magical events I can assert that he is also extremely fit, a top-grade martial artist and dancer, and a very good teacher to boot. Oh, I almost forgot to mention "great self-taught musician on a wide range of instruments". Now, according to his own account Fries has gained a very great deal from utilising techniques obtained from NLP, ergo we must accept that at least some of his abilities have been improved if not indeed evolved as a result of those methods. So, on one side, as an exemplar of the potential usefulness of some parts of NLP we have Jan Fries.

And on the other side we've got - er, you.

If you are asking me to make a choice, then I'm afraid it's not going to much of a competition.

So I may just do as Mr. Fries suggests and pinch out those bits that I can use; after all, I don't have to swallow the thing whole in order to make use of it, do I?

Do you?

o


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 Anonymous
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Most forms of ceremonial magick utilize NLP techniques like "anchoring" and "re-framing".


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 856
 

Well, you'd have to explain what NLP means by those obscure terms, and what you think they mean, and then what terms you think they are synomonous with in Ceremonial Magick, and finally *why* you think they're synomonous. Without that, your postulation is meaningless.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Working as an Osteopath in daily practice, one cannot overlook the benefits of the power of hypnotic suggestion upon the patient through non-verbal cues i.e. mobility of the spinal and peripheral components of the body and the powerful effect of tonality (emphasis), rhythm and pace of speech in a typical treatment session. NLP techniques are very useful in anchoring great results and 'change' within the patient.

My deductions of what NLP is and how it works came to its conclusion last night over weeks of discussing this fascinating field with a fellow colleague who is a master NLP practitioner.

The penny dropped when I was pressing this practitioner to explain the elementary mechanics which lie at the root of Bandler's genius. Basically, in regard to getting ones Magickal hat on, Bandler coined the term 'sub-modalities' in NLP to refer to the sub-divisions of each of the 5 senses (elements, tattwas, aggregates, tendencies or dharmas?) into their sub-senses e.g. the 'sub-modalities' of VISUAL sensations could be characterised by colour (Kalas), hue, chromatic, light, dark etc.

From what I understand, Bandler modelled NLP upon an archetypal core structure of elemental principles that have been profusely discussed throughout antiquity within the eastern doctrines e.g. Vasubhandu (Abhidharmas). In this respect the 'sub-modalties' of the individual in NLP, are synonymous with the elemental forms of the astral light and hence the akashic records or alaya. 'Observation' of these sub-modalities is similar to identifying the elemental feature of the pulses, face, palm, body or tongue. A good practitioner can receive impressions of the elemental nature (sub-modality) and the direction of the elemental tendencies that are aberrant or deficient within the patient.

Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

This is kind of a dead thread, with post dates jumping from August 2007 to August 2008 and then a few blips after, but it is one of few threads here where I might offer some learned expertise relevant to this community.

I studied Hypnosis and NLP for 2 years, and found both pleasure and pain within it's tuition. Noxlux's exercise is a great example of NLP in its best application for Magick, however there are reasons for traditions. As Crowley points out you cannot attain Samadhi unless you truly take on a hermitage from the hustle and bustle of the world, and I have come to regard NLP as a desperate measure in this regard. Unless your time is truly scarce I would not recommend NLP exercises, as the traditional and more time consuming processes yield more fuller results. Instead if you find it arduous to enter desired states of consciousness I would recommend to you Yoga or Tai Chi; the study of which would take about as much time as the study of NLP and will teach you more about yourself rather than New Age Pseudo-Science.

To those that ignore this, let me commend your courage and conviction. Let me also warn of two perils you may face:
NLP can be a great tool for altering your Will. You will have direct access to make changes, and you are infinitely more likely to make the wrong ones than anything else. Consider that any thing that you Will to change in your Will, may be Ill-Will. Taking short cuts in the process of self-discovery may lead you to find yourself falling off a mountain.

Hypnosis with others is highly addictive. I have the experience of chemical addiction (and recovery) to compare with other activities and I found hypnosis ritual work with a partner to be the most seductive addiction. To open your Will entirely to the Will of another is the most comfortable and soothing sensation any man can have. Disarmed and delirious you will be more at peace than you have ever known; not even cradled in the arms of your mother have you felt such helpless bliss. "It surrounds and drowns and wipes me away. But I'm so comfortable...Too comfortable." - Tool, "Undertow" (Worth a listen for any curious about the sensation.)


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 74
 

Hi SethRose

NLP can be a great tool for altering your Will.

If by will you mean "I want", that is, "will" this or that to happen, magic in other words, I would agree.

You will have direct access to make changes, and you are infinitely more likely to make the wrong ones than anything else.

Indeed this is a good argument against many types of magic also.
But both magic and NLP have there safe guards though, like the HGA method within magic, and the ecology checks and deep mind work withing NLP.

Baxian


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