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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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15/05/2010 2:00 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The problem with all Old Aeon systems of magick is that they simply don't work any more. Many nearly work in that the act may reassure or give some sort of minor support in the solution of the difficulty faced. They don’t though actually solve the problem faced as they purport to do.

Chapter II Verse 70:
There is help & hope in other spells. Wisdom says: be strong! Then canst thou bear more joy. Be not animal; refine thy rapture! If thou drink, drink by the eight and ninety rules of art: if thou love, exceed by delicacy; and if thou do aught joyous, let there be subtlety therein!

It seems then that all systems of magick have to be adjusted slightly so they can work fully. In many of the Grimoires, Tantras or say other source material the first and foremost thing mentioned usually is that of the attitude of the practitioner. For instance the Grimoires suggest a long period of abstinence and prayer before actually doing the magick. The Tantras, even the left hand path ones, talk of devotional work being the first step. In fact all magickal work takes the form of some sort of ordeal followed by the reward.
The problem as I see it though, is the nature of the ordeal or devotional work done. If we are to follow Old Aeon morality that is where I think it falls down. Language is a barrier here too as many of these books were first translated by stuffy Victorians and their value systems have pervaded these works. So the first step to get this all working is to then purge oneself of all Old Aeon morality: To accept the third Chapter of The Book Of The Law with joy and glee even; To rid oneself of all other considerations with the exception for the Love of Nuith for men and the Lust of Hadith for women. Then build ones’ sacred island, magickal palace or kavacha to use the Tantric term. After that things should run smoothly and one can absorb many varied magickal systems. The only problem comes when again you start to adopt the morality of the system as laid down by that system’s founders. That has to filtered-out and one must be vigilant in doing this as if let in it can undermine the magickian with terrible consequences.
I’ve seen people do this a lot. They embark on a study of some magickal system and before you know it they are saying “I’m no longer a Thelemite”, then next thing that happens is they are going native in the system in question and after a while they have little left to them but a devotional lifestyle around some foreign or ancient tradition that is of little meaning to the modern world and of even less consequence to reality. They may have found some reassurance to life’s struggles but are they still magickians, I think not.
As a Thelemite I make myself go through a rigorous check each time I absorb a new system or tradition, I reread Liber AL and the shrug off the niggles that have attempted to attach themselves to me. I bring this topic up as I don’t think it gets enough of a mention. I also think there is at times a fear from some Thelemites of stepping out of the compound as it were and only following the Beast but that would mean we would not progress. So the solution is of course to do both. What do others think on this?

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
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15/05/2010 2:15 pm  

“I’m no longer a Thelemite”,

As a Thelemite

To be honest, I find such labels rather silly. I was introduced to a chap at a Treadwells book launch a few months ago, and I really cringed when he stated he was a Thelemite - I mean, he might just as well have said that he was a mod or rocker or something equally as tribal.


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 2:43 pm  

Thank you for this interesting post, Alex.

imho - I think it's important to realise that Thelema permits, and demands, the exercise of any means necessary to the realisation and fulfilment of one's nature - and nothing else.

Far be it from me to say what may or may not be appropriate for another individual's realisation.

But I can't say that if Thelema is understood, that there would ever be a reason to discard it, except as an exercise to see what doing so was like, (or perhaps as a final liberation from conceptual thought altogether); because it is all-inclusive of other spiritual paradigms or systems to the extent that they align with the New Aeon, which is ostensibly one of individual empowerment, and spiritual realisation.

I personally feel that it is quite important for Thelemites to "step out of the compound as it were" and not only follow the Beast, as you put it - he himself said "don't follow me!", the entire idea of "followers" was something he (and Liber Al) despised. The only thing Liber Al instructs us to "follow" is "the love of Nu in the star-lit heaven" : in other words, every possible means of self-fulfilment, every realisation, every facet of our star-hood. This includes any spiritual materials which are part of our inheritance, to the extent that they allow us to shine with brighter flame.

It is important, perhaps, not only for the long-term benefit of those pre-existing old aeon spiritual traditions that Thelemites apply themselves to their Thelemisation ; but even more important for the benefit of Thelema itself, that it is as omnivorous, literate, all-inclusive and comprehensive as possible, so that sectarian issues become as trivial as they really ought. This is a secret of the essential brotherhood of mankind.

This is one of the things I find most admirable about the works of Kenneth Grant, he has really opened my eyes to the deep potential of this quintessentially new-Aeon syncretic approach. What is perhaps the most significant thing about it in one way, to me, is his recognition (perhaps through the exercise of having known and Worked with both Crowley and Austin Spare) of the emergence in human consciousness of dimensions which are continually pouring themselves into the terrestrial history-stream, ie. not limiting himself to the fossilised remains of accepted traditions but dynamically engaging with new material such as the work of the surrealists, with Lovecraft's mythos, and Ufology, hence making sure the envelope is wide enough to catch its prize, yet maintaining (imho) the Clue, the golden thread through the labyrinth of imagination to its source in the ineffable, invisible mystery at the core of Being.

Kind Regards
N.


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 2:45 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

On the outer sense you are correct, 'Thelemite' does have a tribal conatation. I was of course refferring to how a magickian reffers to themself which is an inner meaning and reffers to someones view of their own personal development. It's a bit like how many Wiccans now call themselves Traditional Witches to give themself an air of the ancient when we all know that Traditional Witchcraft as a 'tradition' is only about fifteen years old. Real traditional witches of course being Christians. I'm sorry but in all seriousness I have to say Thelema, which to me includes Wicca and all but traditional throughbacks of the Magickal Revival, is simply the only gig in town. The rest is just packaging.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 4:09 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

So no body is confused by this. I deliberately posted this thread in the 'Magick' forum. I am not speaking on Mysticism or Religion here or as I think of it, 'the world as I would like it to be'. I am only talking Magickally or 'the world as it really is'. This is the prerequisite to magick being a success is having the correct calibration as it were. For this time in humanity's history that calibration is only Liber AL vel Legis and nothing else. We can wish it were something else but that is purely fantasy. That is the point I was making.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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spike418
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15/05/2010 4:26 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
The problem with all Old Aeon systems of magick is that they simply don't work any more.

I am intrigued as to how you arrive at such a conclusion?


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 4:45 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"spike418" wrote:
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
The problem with all Old Aeon systems of magick is that they simply don't work any more.

I am intrigued as to how you arrive at such a conclusion?

By doing them. I made extensive studies over the last 25 years, some more than others but all seem to have one major flaw, they expected the rest of humanity to share in their world view. With the modern world being such a huge inteference they shudder and crumble in many cases. Only Liber AL seems to take the strain.
For instance Tantra, which is one of the most complete Old Aeon System of magick. I am an initiate and have for many years been a devotee of Kali, have done a hell of a lot of daily workings arround her systems of magick over the years. The trouble comes though when reading a Tantra and then practicingi t as the Indians would is that I don't get any result magick. I might get a nice fealing for an hour or two but that's about it. The instant I apply it in the Thelemic sense though, lightning strikes and the world moves. The same goes for my experiences of Witchcraft and Vodou aswell as Ancient Traditions like, Egypt, Celtic and so on. I've yet to see anything else work. I'd be happy if proven wrong but will stick to the evidence if that's OK.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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15/05/2010 5:22 pm  

93,

I'll post my own actual thoughts soon, but it just seemed like this should be inserted at some point...

Liber AL II: 5 "Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright. "

93 93/93


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spike418
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15/05/2010 6:06 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"spike418" wrote:
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
The problem with all Old Aeon systems of magick is that they simply don't work any more.

I am intrigued as to how you arrive at such a conclusion?

By doing them. I made extensive studies over the last 25 years, some more than others but all seem to have one major flaw, they expected the rest of humanity to share in their world view. With the modern world being such a huge inteference they shudder and crumble in many cases. Only Liber AL seems to take the strain.
For instance Tantra, which is one of the most complete Old Aeon System of magick. I am an initiate and have for many years been a devotee of Kali, have done a hell of a lot of daily workings arround her systems of magick over the years. The trouble comes though when reading a Tantra and then practicingi t as the Indians would is that I don't get any result magick. I might get a nice fealing for an hour or two but that's about it. The instant I apply it in the Thelemic sense though, lightning strikes and the world moves. The same goes for my experiences of Witchcraft and Vodou aswell as Ancient Traditions like, Egypt, Celtic and so on. I've yet to see anything else work. I'd be happy if proven wrong but will stick to the evidence if that's OK.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex

Stick with the evidence by all means, however....

At school I was shite at chemistry but good at physics, likewise I am a good fencer but a crap footballer. So I stuck with areas that suited me and did not decry either chemistry or football as rubbish.


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 6:23 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Spike418, it appears you are completely misunderstanding me. I do not say that for instance Tantra is crap, far from it, in fact I immersed myself in it completely. There comes a point though where after a few years of work one realises one has gotten absolutely nowhere, when the books are all saying that this and that should happen overnight. You may think that this is down to my poor ability at Tantra but I have had two of the very best teachers in the world and many months tuition on a one to one basis. It was only after revising that system of magick in a Thelemic sense that it actually did work for real. In fact quite shockingly scarily real.
This is the point I'm trying to get across. Sure the religious Thelemites are probably thinking in terms of this justifies the scripture and so on. I'm not, I'm saying Thelema as a fundamental philosophy, is superior in this modern era when applied to ANY system of magick, not just the small amount mentioned in Crowley's work.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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spike418
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15/05/2010 7:12 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Spike418, it appears you are completely misunderstanding me. I do not say that for instance Tantra is crap, far from it, in fact I immersed myself in it completely. There comes a point though where after a few years of work one realises one has gotten absolutely nowhere, when the books are all saying that this and that should happen overnight. You may think that this is down to my poor ability at Tantra but I have had two of the very best teachers in the world and many months tuition on a one to one basis. It was only after revising that system of magick in a Thelemic sense that it actually did work for real. In fact quite shockingly scarily real.
This is the point I'm trying to get across. Sure the religious Thelemites are probably thinking in terms of this justifies the scripture and so on. I'm not, I'm saying Thelema as a fundamental philosophy, is superior in this modern era when applied to ANY system of magick, not just the small amount mentioned in Crowley's work.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex

I may be misunderstanding you but your opening line of the first post was quite unequivocal. If you had the best Tantra teachers in the world and still could not make it work then I suggest at least some of the failing is down to you. This is not to dismiss you or seek a flaming, it comes down to horses for courses. A penny fathing is still an effective bike, just not very suitable for mountain terrain 😀


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 7:24 pm  

That's a fair cop (as a mere point of logic). You can have violin lessons with god himself for all eternity, but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

Hey. Maybe we're hitting on the (non-Class A) doctrine of True Will, as AC saw it . . . one thing is for sure - it's totally un-Thelemic to persist in something that just doesn't work - whether for you or others too, is only half your business . . .


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 7:55 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I too have no desire for flaming, it's so dull and actually just demonstrates weakness. I take your criticism to the extent that I was unable to use purely Hindu or Buddhist philosophy, whilst living in the West, to pervade the mindset of those around me so that my magickal will could do its work using the Tantric system. Is this purely my failing though or perhaps that of Hinduism and Buddhism too. The good thing about Tantra is that like Thelema, it transcends religion. Combining my Tantric practice with Thelemic philosophy meant I could effect the change that the Tantric practices were supposed to bring about whilst living in 21st century Britain. Maybe, and I only say maybe here, if I lived in India I could have made do with Indian philosophy and abandoned Thelema. The trouble is that the Indian magickal kevacha (magickal armour (Tibetans call it the mandala)) is not strong enough to take the battering of the whole world's numerous attacks in my experience. Whereas the Thelemic kevacha , mentioned in Liber AL as the island dung about with the engenery of war and the palace with a floor of silver and gold, is much more potent for a world stage. Maybe it's just newer or something. Again though this is my limited experience.
Kali when she talks to me doesn't mind being thought of by me as Nuit's dark side, the waning moon, with Lalita her light side or waxing moon. It all marries well with Surya being Ra Hoor Khuit as the guardian of the kevacha and Hadith is so Shiva like. These philosophies or magickal practices transcend the gods of cultures, they are fundamentals. The same could be said for many cultures and pantheons and there is the advantage of Thelema not being stuck in the distant past. I've no interest in religion just finding out what works, I hope I have managed to explain myself so it can be understood.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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christibrany
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15/05/2010 8:48 pm  

as old as it is I got plenty of real world results with hinduism and kali in particular. i don't think that just because it's old it doesn't work.

maybe that belief that old=ineffective in terms of spiritual traditions that you seem to carry around in your head Mr Bennett is the very reason that they are not working for you. belief makes reality as some say.


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 Anonymous
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15/05/2010 9:09 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
That's a fair cop (as a mere point of logic). You can have violin lessons with god himself for all eternity, but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

Hey. Maybe we're hitting on the (non-Class A) doctrine of True Will, as AC saw it . . . one thing is for sure - it's totally un-Thelemic to persist in something that just doesn't work

Yeah, hence the capitalization of the word "Will" in "MAGICK
is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will," perhaps? 😉


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 4:06 am  

Wh do you mean by that, Camlion?


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 6:29 am  

What if one happens to be a starfish?


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 10:44 am  

In other words, what if (in the example given) one is inherently unsuited by nature, or unequipped by nature, to play the violin (or achieve success at a Tantric, old-aeon-magical, or other, practise)?

Doesn't this idea run contrary to everything Crowley says about his idea of "True Will" - ie. that there is one True Will and lots of "false" wills?


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Horemakhet
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16/05/2010 11:25 am  

So Vincent Van Gogh should have never painted? He was not a 'natural' by birth, but became a Master through True Will. He made alot more money than most of us last year, & is decomposed.


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 1:17 pm  

Why would one ever say that he should never have painted?

He most certainly was a natural by birth, imo - if he wasn't, he wouldn't have been able to get to where he did, or even a fraction of the way.

On the other hand, he was probably a really crap violinist! 🙂

Every "natural" - at whatever they're doing - has to train and develop their natural qualities in order to reach the fullness of potential. Nature only goes so far unassisted. Crowley's (non-class A) doctrine of "True Will" has little to add to this idea.

Trees don't grow if you pull them. Every tree has the potential to grow into its fullest form given the right conditions. But the seed must be there to start with.


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 1:30 pm  

That's Crowley's excuse for being financially incapable once his inheritance had run out, spongeing of his disciples in a particularly bald-faced fashion for the rest of his life. It "wasn't his True Will" to make money, apparently.

And he literally wrote the book on "True Will".

So, is it (TW) something you choose, or something that chooses you? Or a bi' o' both?


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 1:53 pm  

In other words, (horror!) did Crowley actually choose to sponge off people rather than find gainful employ?

Or was he simply really, really crap at "willing", or "achieving things through True Will" as you put it, Horemakhet? I mean, he had some little successes at "sorcery" - ie. making small sums appear unexpectedly (often through asking friends of friends for cash!), but that's not quite the same thing as what I think you were meaning with your Van Gogh analogy.

Or was he (conveniently, or inconveniently) prevented by his real True Will from doing so -- as he put it, his TW being to be a channel for the Masters, not serving his own personal interests, (though it might have been far less embarrassing, and a better example all round!) ?

Or is the concept of "True Will" inherently flawed and useless from a magical or spiritual perspective, except as an interesting or romantic way of regarding "what was going to happen anyway"?


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Horemakhet
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16/05/2010 1:58 pm  

I do not know about his violin playing ability, but Van Gogh started late in life, & was not very good at drawing. His paintings were muddy & without talent; But, he attacked his new vocation, & though he never achieved any success in his life, a painting that was once used to mend someone's roof sold for a few million later. Virtually no one thought he could succeed with his art, yet he became greater than a Degas, as example, who was far more gifted than him.


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 2:01 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

“I’m no longer a Thelemite”,

As a Thelemite

To be honest, I find such labels rather silly. I was introduced to a chap at a Treadwells book launch a few months ago, and I really cringed when he stated he was a Thelemite - I mean, he might just as well have said that he was a mod or rocker or something equally as tribal.

I find it very interesting that Crowley was the creator of a movement that would be totally nullified once he died and lived forever in a tormenting hell where those powers of darkness that he served would rip him to shreds without mercy. For the philosophy of doing what thy will means, to torment without mercy if you please. And believe me; the demons in hell are full of great wrath and tormentings as they want!!


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 2:10 pm  

But if Van Gogh became "greater" (in your estimation) than Degas (let's just say), then clearly he was, in fact, the more "gifted" of the pair, in the long run.

It's just that Degas probably had a more fortunate personal situation and environment wherein to flourish at an earlier age, but only took it so far.

Let's see - yes, Degas was born to a Banker, Van Gogh to a religious minister. There's the difference, right there. Stylistically too. We could say that Van Gogh profited from his childhood in ways that Degas didn't, and vice-versa.

Plus VG only died at 37. He really started painting in his early thirties. That's hardly "late in life". Life has hardly begun at that stage, I think, in many ways.


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alysa
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16/05/2010 2:12 pm  

You speak out of experience, magoo 737?


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 2:14 pm  

.


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Horemakhet
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16/05/2010 2:51 pm  

30 was "late in life" at that time, & within his own lifespan. ~~ Degas was a prodigy. From a very young age he could draw anything. Vincent was clumsy in his drawing at 30.~~ Go to any bookshop/museum/library/school & see which artist is "greater" to the world now.


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 3:37 pm  

Well there's a few things to chew on there.

Had Mr. Van Gogh not shot himself in the chest, he might have lived another twenty or thirty years at least, by the standard of the age in his part of the world. Maybe more. So we can safely say he was barely half-way through his life, and that had he done so, what we now consider his last works might barely be considered preparatory in comparison.

Van Gogh was a clumsy drawer, sure. And he stayed as much - he's not famous for drawing, but painting. The two are very different skills.

Popularity does not necessarily equal "greatness", especially in the arts! Usually, for me, it's quite the reverse. If it did, MacDonalds(TM) would be the pinnacle of culinary achievement (as opposed to capitalist achievement, which it actually is!), Michael Jackson would be a far "greater" musician than Bach, and Dan Brown a far "greater" writer than, oh, let's say, Aleister Crowley!


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 9:03 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"christibrany" wrote:
as old as it is I got plenty of real world results with hinduism and kali in particular. i don't think that just because it's old it doesn't work.

maybe that belief that old=ineffective in terms of spiritual traditions that you seem to carry around in your head Mr Bennett is the very reason that they are not working for you. belief makes reality as some say.

I concede your point with a 'but'. That 'but' is that all kevacha or magickal armour deities are essentially the defenders of that spiritual practice. At some point one has to not sit on the fence any more and I chose to side with Ra Hoor Khuit. That and as a Phiringe (foreigner in Sanskrit) I was never going to be allowed into most Tantric temples anyway. It was predicted in the Meru Tantra (circa 1600 EV) that due to the revolting attitude of the Hindus towards sexuality that Tantra's hierarchy would pass to the English tongue and the holy river would become the Thames. To me this means that the Tantrics saw the writing on the wall and they are yet one other of Thelema's precursors.
See:
http://www.shivashakti.com/mantra.htm

I'm not surprised therefore that a Thelemite may have good contact with Kali. I simply think that an Indian Brahmin's may be more dubious.

Love is the law, love under will.

Alex


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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16/05/2010 9:56 pm  
"magoo737" wrote:
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

“I’m no longer a Thelemite”,

As a Thelemite

To be honest, I find such labels rather silly. I was introduced to a chap at a Treadwells book launch a few months ago, and I really cringed when he stated he was a Thelemite - I mean, he might just as well have said that he was a mod or rocker or something equally as tribal.

I find it very interesting that Crowley was the creator of a movement that would be totally nullified once he died and lived forever in a tormenting hell where those powers of darkness that he served would rip him to shreds without mercy. For the philosophy of doing what thy will means, to torment without mercy if you please. And believe me; the demons in hell are full of great wrath and tormentings as they want!!

93,

Not to feed the troll, but... rolling... on... the... floor.... laughing... my... ass... off

... at ignorance.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 10:01 pm  
"magoo737" wrote:
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

“I’m no longer a Thelemite”,

As a Thelemite

To be honest, I find such labels rather silly. I was introduced to a chap at a Treadwells book launch a few months ago, and I really cringed when he stated he was a Thelemite - I mean, he might just as well have said that he was a mod or rocker or something equally as tribal.

I find it very interesting that Crowley was the creator of a movement that would be totally nullified once he died and lived forever in a tormenting hell where those powers of darkness that he served would rip him to shreds without mercy. For the philosophy of doing what thy will means, to torment without mercy if you please. And believe me; the demons in hell are full of great wrath and tormentings as they want!!

NEXT!


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 Anonymous
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16/05/2010 10:17 pm  

Greetings

"magoo737" wrote:
I find it very interesting that Crowley was the creator of a movement that would be totally nullified once he died and lived forever in a tormenting hell where those powers of darkness that he served would rip him to shreds without mercy. For the philosophy of doing what thy will means, to torment without mercy if you please. And believe me; the demons in hell are full of great wrath and tormentings as they want!!

The experience you describe above magoo737, has nothing to do with Aleister Crowley’s teaching about True Will. As for his shortcomings, I guess there are many ways to see them, yet he walked his own path and left us a great legacy. As for the movement he created is far from being “totally nullified” as you think, but even if this was the case his own influence in the modern thought would still be great.

Furthermore, I believe that, not only he did not “serve” any sort of “powers of darkness” but he strived for balance, which is something much more important from “serving” any of the two poles of the duality separately. Did he finally achieve some balance? Probably not, at least not in the degree some of us would like him to. Does that matter really? I wouldn’t spend much time criticizing AC, since I need the time and the energy to walk on my own path. Could we do more and better than him? Hic Rhodus, hic saltus…

In my opinion the “demons in hell” you talk about are your own demons; that is aspects of your own self that need to be addressed not in fear but in love and acceptance. Therefore, in all due respect, I would suggest that you need to go within your heart and have some introspection, perhaps along with practicing some balancing techniques and also open up and speak; this will help you determine your inner fears and they won’t need to come out in the form of those dreadful demons any longer.

In love and light
Hecate


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 Anonymous
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17/05/2010 3:07 am  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
That and as a Phiringe (foreigner in Sanskrit) I was never going to be allowed into most Tantric temples anyway. It was predicted in the Meru Tantra (circa 1600 EV) that due to the revolting attitude of the Hindus towards sexuality that Tantra's hierarchy would pass to the English tongue and the holy river would become the Thames. To me this means that the Tantrics saw the writing on the wall and they are yet one other of Thelema's precursors.
See:
http://www.shivashakti.com/mantra.htm

This is really interesting, Alex. The Tantra/Thelema relationship has always seemed essential to me. Is that translation verified as accurate ? Has it been published, and is the original available?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/05/2010 10:52 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
That's a fair cop (as a mere point of logic). You can have violin lessons with god himself for all eternity, but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

Hey. Maybe we're hitting on the (non-Class A) doctrine of True Will, as AC saw it . . . one thing is for sure - it's totally un-Thelemic to persist in something that just doesn't work - whether for you or others too, is only half your business . . .

Hmmm...... .

Is the Holy Guardian Angel stuff, which is not mentioned in The Book of the Law, a class A or a class B doctrine?

And is the crossing of the Abyss stuff, which is not mentioned in The Book of the Law either, a class A or a class B doctrine?

And as for The Book of the Law, which class it that?

And are these various classes of little importance unless one is in the A.:.A.:. ?


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 501
17/05/2010 11:11 am  

There are no class A or B (or anything else) doctrines. The classification refers to publications.

Don't you not know nuffin?

OK


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/05/2010 12:50 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
There are no class A or B (or anything else) doctrines. The classification refers to publications.

Don't you not know nuffin?

OK

It was Noctifer's claim about "True Will" being a (non-Class A) doctrine - quoted below - that I found confusing.

"Noctifer" wrote:
Maybe we're hitting on the (non-Class A) doctrine of True Will, as AC saw it . . . one thing is for sure - it's totally un-Thelemic to persist in something that just doesn't work - whether for you or others too, is only half your business . . .

But as the class A publications like The Book of the Law are of such supreme status and importance in Thelema, are they all available for free in collected form on the net, like for example the Bible?

If so I would love it if someone gave me a hyperlink to such a link, as such a link would be a great way of fulfilling A. Crowley's intentions both of spreading Thelema, and of doing this free of charge.

And to restate my questions:

Is the Holy Guardian Angel stuff, which is not mentioned in The Book of the Law, and the crossing of the Abyss stuff, which is not mentioned in The Book of the Law either, mentioned in class A publications?

And in line with the subjectmatter of this thread, would it not give Thelema an even greater advantage over the "Old Aeon Magickal Systems", to provide all of its system - including all classes of publications - available for free in a collected form, for the benefit of each individual "Man and Woman" being "a Star"?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
17/05/2010 1:27 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"OKontrair" wrote:
There are no class A or B (or anything else) doctrines. The classification refers to publications.

Don't you not know nuffin?

OK

It was Noctifer's claim about "True Will" being a (non-Class A) doctrine - quoted below - that I found confusing.

"Noctifer" wrote:
Maybe we're hitting on the (non-Class A) doctrine of True Will, as AC saw it . . . one thing is for sure - it's totally un-Thelemic to persist in something that just doesn't work - whether for you or others too, is only half your business . . .

But as the class A publications like The Book of the Law are of such supreme status and importance in Thelema, are they all available for free in collected form on the net, like for example the Bible?

If so I would love it if someone gave me a hyperlink to such a link, as such a link would be a great way of fulfilling A. Crowley's intentions both of spreading Thelema, and of doing this free of charge.

And to restate my questions:

Is the Holy Guardian Angel stuff, which is not mentioned in The Book of the Law, and the crossing of the Abyss stuff, which is not mentioned in The Book of the Law either, mentioned in class A publications?

And in line with the subjectmatter of this thread, would it not give Thelema an even greater advantage over the "Old Aeon Magickal Systems", to provide all of its system - including all classes of publications - available for free in a collected form, for the benefit of each individual "Man and Woman" being "a Star"?

93,

One Star in Sight

Liber XXIII - An Account of A:.A:.

Liber LXI vel Cause - The Preliminary Lection Including the History Lection

Liber CCVII - A Syllabus of the Official Instructions of A:.A:. Hitherto Published

Enjoy.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/05/2010 3:14 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
That's a fair cop (as a mere point of logic). You can have violin lessons with god himself for all eternity, but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

Hey. Maybe we're hitting on the (non-Class A) doctrine of True Will, as AC saw it . . . one thing is for sure - it's totally un-Thelemic to persist in something that just doesn't work - whether for you or others too, is only half your business . . .

It would also seem that to an extent, biology is Will and that some are more pre-disposed to one method over the other despite interpretations of "this is superior" and "that is inferior".


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/05/2010 4:40 pm  
"matus.simkovic" wrote:
More generally, ideologies like Fascism and Communism included their own ideas of

evolution. While fascists tried to return to the aryan roots, the communists idealised the industrial and

technological progress.Considering the history of this wider 'application' of the idea of (cultural or spiritual)

evolution, I am higly critical and suspicious of it - whether in Crowley's writings or elsewhere. The idea has a

kind of alpha-male teleologic naivity, that the whole human history was set up and steered (presumably by some

gods) just to enable me - here and now - to launch/join some revolution. At its worst, the idea has the potential

of transforming sensible people into suicide machines.

Yes, ideas similar to the idea of "regenerating the world" contained within Thelema's most holy text The Book

of The Law, was popular both within communism and among intellectuals in general at the time of its writing,

and similar ideas of "regenerating the world" was also essential to the later Fascist movement and the later Nazi

movement.

"tony1983112" wrote:
Thank you all for your posts!

Thanks for that.

"Noctifer" wrote:
"Filth"? That's a bit harsh. Azidonis, AC does in fact refer to the atomic weapons as related to

the aeon of Horus, as well as the bloodshed of both World Wars. He also drew allusions that the publications of AL

were related to these things, and other assorted disasters.

Yes, and he also believed some powerful hidden beings to somehow be i in control the developments leading to for

example both World Wars.

In light of this I have the following question for all: "Is there a written demand for belief in som powerful hidden beings in control of our world, contained within the publications of Thelema?" And if yes, which class would that publication or those publications belong to?

Crowley presented The Book of The Law, which of course is Thelema's most holy text and a class A publication, as proof of the external existence of "gods."

"Azidonis" wrote:
93, Okay, I'll bite. (Apologies in advance for double post... too late to edit.)

There are many ways of changing the world. It can be done through education, religion, politics, peace, love, war,

etc. I can also be changed through nuclear explosions.

As seen in the following quotes from Magick Without Tears, derived from the hyperlink to luckymojo.com

below, the powerful hidden beings in control of our world - that Crowley believed in -are there described as

changing the world in both peaceful and extremely violent and disastrous ways. But then Crowley also states that

this - even if this involves exterminating "a third part of the race"(I somehow personally don't like the sound

of this, also in relation to genocides like the Holocaust) - is done for our own good, like a gardener or

gardeners would weed out infected plants in a garden, to save the rest of the plants.

Now, one can of course try to psychologize Crowley, and indicate that he felt so treated as an outcast by the

world, that he felt he had nothing to lose if this world collapsed. But in a correspondence by letters between

Crowley and Grady McMurtry from the USA, we see the disagreeing when Crowley suggests that a disaster killing 90%

of the population on the American continent, might be the the purpose of the powerful hidden beings he believed to

be in control of our world.

This Grady McMurtry's disagreement with Crowley is interesting seen in the light of the latter supposedly

selecting the former to be his successor.

Link to the three relevant letters from the correspondence by letters between Crowley and Grady McMurtry,

mentioned above: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0600.htm#ps2

In agreement with Bill Heidrick for letting me quote from his site, I want to thank him and the OTO currently

under leadership of Frater Hymenaeus Beta XII°, for their efforts in making these letters available on the net.

The first letter can be found under the sub heading 'Primary Sources', and is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the

words: " ...the first letter Grady McMurtry wrote to Crowley, in self introduction." Here Grady McMurtry is

critizising members of the OTO in the USA of "glibly speaking" about a "tidal wave of industrial collapse", that

according to McMurtry would have the following result; " ....a full ninety per cent of the population of this

continent would perish in one gigantic orgasm of anarchy."

The second letter is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the words: "Here's Crowley's first letter to Grady McMurtry,

in response to the above." Here Crowley writes:

"You seem to regard with apprehension the annihilation of 90% of the malignant and stupid insects which you

describe. Personally, I cannot see that it matters two hoots. What we want is the establishment of a principle; in

the same way, the Commander-in-Chief unhesitatingly flings men by the hundred thousand into the jaws of

destruction -- that his cause may triumph. I cannot see much point in pretending to be sorry about it.

I don't know whether these remarks help you at all, even so far as the explanation of my own position goes; in

fact, the question arises whether I have a position. I am the servant of those who sent forth the Book of the Law.

I can really do little more than refer every enquirer to that Book."

The third letter is introduced by Bill Heidrick with the words: "We conclude this set with a Grady's second letter

to Crowley."

Here, referring to his disagreement with Crowley's suggestion that a disaster killing 90% of the population on the

American continent, might be the the purpose of the powerful hidden beings he believed to be in control of our

world, McMurtry writes the following:

"I haven't time to go into detail about the "Great Chipmunk Experiment" at the moment. I have to enlarge on this

at the first opportunity. In fact I will need to do so to bring out certain points on which I do not agree -- in a

constructive sense -- with the policies of the Order as I understand them."

http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/occultism/magic/ceremonial/crowley/000mwtears.txt

"CHAPTER IX (in Magick Without Tears).

THE SECRET CHIEFS ....."

"...the thaumaturgic engine disposes of a type of energy more adaptable
than Electricity itself, and both stronger and subtler than this, its
analogy in the world of profane science." ....

"It is of this universally powerful weapon that the Secret Chiefs must be
supposed to possess complete control.

They can induce a girl to embroider a tapestry, or initiate a political
movement to culminate in a world-war; all in pursuit of some plan wholly
beyond the purview or the comprehension of the deepest and subtlest
thinkers." ....

"To a Secret Chief, wielding this weapon, "The nice conduct of a clouded
cane" might be infinitely more important than a war, famine and pesti-
lence such as might exterminate a third part of the race, to promote
whose welfare is the crux of His oath, and the sole reason of His
existence!" ....

"Since They are "invisible" and "inaccessible," may They not merely be
figments invented by a self-styled "Master," not quite sure of himself,
to prop his tottering Authority?

Well, the "invisible" and "inaccessible" criticism may equally be
leveled at Captain A. and Admiral B. of the Naval Intelligence
Department. These "Secret Chiefs" keep in the dark for precisely the
same reasons; and these qualities disappear instantaneously the moment
They want to get hold of you.

It is written, moreover, "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall
rule the many & the known." (AL I, 10)" ...

"Our business is solely to obey orders: our responsibility ends when we
have satisfied ourselves that they emanate from a source which has the
right to command.

P.P.S. A visitor's story has just reminded me of the possibility that
I am a Secret Chief myself without knowing it: for I have sometimes
been recognized by other people as having acted as such, though I was
not aware of the fact at the time."

"Azidonis" wrote:
So, if the Earth is indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants, what does

this say for the many places that will eventually be inhabitable by human beings at some point in the future? The

visualization I'm getting is a radiation map of the world, where many areas are shaded red or some other color and

designated as forbidden zones. Sure, there will be some survivors, and Hollywood has furnished us with many ideas

of how people might act in such a situation.

If not something similar to this, then what pray tell is the actual point of your original post?

Are we to adhere to Crowley's belief in all powerful 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Masters' or 'gods' of this world, this Earth

might less be "indeed undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of its inhabitants," then the Earth's inhabitants

"undergoing a trial by fire at the hands of" the 'Secret Master.'

Then again, is a belief in such 'Secret Chiefs' or 'Secret Master' or 'gods' of this world, of any importance among

Thelemites? This might be of interest as a question in future research up on Thelemites or persons attracted to Thelema.


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Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1503
17/05/2010 7:12 pm  

I have had two of the very best teachers in the world and many months tuition on a one to one basis. It was only after revising that system of magick in a Thelemic sense that it actually did work for real. In fact quite shockingly scarily real.

Hi Alex

Have you shown TBOTL to your teachers and what was their reaction ; if not why not ?
and have any other posters had teachers they showed TBOTL to ?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
08/08/2010 3:47 am  

There were lag times between "receiving" The Book of the Law and "finding" Libre AL and a lag time between the initial Abremelin working, abandoned at first to be taken up successfully later. There seems to be a necessary fallow period in many workings which could be the subconscious mind recalibrating ancient materials for modern times and modern minds.

If you wanted to speed things up, try banishing Kali.
If you wanted to really speed things up, try banishing your own head. 😯
Save her the trouble.


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