I'm sure I first encountered the "Four Powers of the Sphynx" in the Golden Dawn. But does anyone know an older origin of this or have a source? I cannot remember if it's Paracelus (Three Books) or The Corpus Hermeticum.
See Eliphas Lévi, Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie; translated by Arthur Edward Waite as Transcendental Magic, its Doctrine and Ritual, p. 30 and elsewhere:
TO KNOW, TO DARE, TO WILL, TO KEEP SILENCE–such are the four words of the Magus, inscribed upon the four symbolical forms of the sphinx.
Lévi may have gotten this formulation from some earlier source, but is certainly where AC got it from.
@ignant666 Thank you. I had forgotten this but I feel as if there is an earlier source, still.
It is possibly derived from, "Let all mortal flesh keep silent" an ancient chant of the Eucharistic devotion based on scripture from the Book of Habakkuk, 2:20. You are right, it has its roots in Hermeticism, Kabbalah, and other esoteric belief system. Crowley and others seemed to have identified the "keep silent" from a misunderstanding of the iconography of the Ancient Egyptian god, Hippocrates, (god of silence) Horus, revered by the ancient Ptolemaic Egyptians. It portrays a figure with a finger to his lips,(keep quiet) but actually, the god is sucking his finger which in Egyptian hieroglyphics signifies a child. It might signify both, silence and an infant. In Egyptian art, babies are portrayed as fully developed humans, sucking their finger.
If there is (and i agree that you may well be right), @katrice will probably know.
Crowley and others seemed to have identified the "keep silent" from a misunderstanding of the iconography of the Ancient Egyptian god, Hippocrates [sic], (god of silence)
Ummm, no. The "keep silent", like the other three powers*, derives from Lévi, who does not ever mention Harpocrates, and mentions Horus exactly once (as the son of Isis), in a completely different context.
Did you use a "Large Language Model"/"AI" to derive this incorrect answer, or is it your own work? Probably your own as an LLM would know that Hippocrates and Harpocrates aren't the same dude.
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* In MWT, AC adds a fifth power (to correspond with the "fifth element" of spirit), "to go".
@ignant666 You got me there. But yes, I know Harpocrates is not Hippocrates. But I wouldn't be toadstoolwe if I didn't spread inaccurate information. It's what you have to expect. Have a Happy Father's Day.
I wouldn't be toadstoolwe if I didn't spread inaccurate information.
It is best to keep the pie-hole shut if you don't know what you're talking about.
The site Guidelines that you have agreed to by posting here ban "spread[ing] inaccurate information":
Submissions must not contain false or misleading information. If a member is unsure of his sources, he or she should say so.
I think it is still true that i am the only parent who regularly posts here, so thank you for wishing me a happy Father's Day, albeit a day early.
It is possibly derived from, "Let all mortal flesh keep silent" an ancient chant of the Eucharistic devotion based on scripture from the Book of Habakkuk, 2:20.
Why is it possibly derived from that? Do you have any sources that suggest this?
but actually, the god is sucking his finger which in Egyptian hieroglyphics signifies a child.
This one has always confuses me and I wish there were some more legitimate (academic) sources to refer to. Harpocrates was an Hellenistic adoption of the child god Horus. I don't know of any NON Ptolemaic images of Harpocrates with his finger to his mouth so, while the pre Ptolemaic Egyptians may have meant the sign as one of a child, I only know of the Greek interpretation for lack of an pre-Ptolemaic imagery.
Ummm, no. The "keep silent", like the other three powers*, derives from Lévi
Are you confident in Levi being the earliest source? Which is to ask: Levi made them up?
Are you confident in Levi being the earliest source? Which is to ask: Levi made them up?
Not at all, as i have said twice now. There may well be an earlier source. All i said is that
Lévi may have gotten this formulation from some earlier source, but is certainly where AC got it from.
Again, @katrice will very likely know the answer here; be patient as i am sure she will chime in soon.
Do you have any sources that suggest this?
No, of course he doesn't.
Our Toadly Comrade is not in the habit of looking things up, or having sources for things he says; he views such things as beneath him. He says he was was once a librarian, but has left all that behind. He just speculates.
@ignant666 Quite true. I left all that behind me. Right now I am focused on doing artwork.
I never mentioned Eliphas Levi, but it sounds reasonable given Crowley's admiration of him.
@damien Ptolemaic Egypt was Egyptian in name only. Ancient Egypt was by that time a shadow of its former glory. Even the High priests did not understand what the hieroglyphs meant. Like the Nubians, they slavishly copied artistic styles and religious cults. The Cult of Harpocratis was mainly Greco-Egyptian, and became popular in Ancient Rome. So it was a synthesis of many religious ideas and cults. Like I mentioned in another thread, early Christians combined the worship of Apollo with Jesus Christ. There is a great book I have edited by Foy Scalf entitled, The Egyptian Book of the Dead: Becoming a God in Ancient Egyptian. He notes the degeneration of Egyptian religion during the Ptolemaic period and notes that books of the dead contained a great many errors because scribes were copying older texts that they did not understand.
The "ancient" Ptolemaic Egyptians were more recent than ancient. They came after Ankh (circa 525 BEV), so technically, but only from a certain time-view, they were part of The New Aeon, or were at least in its transition.
I think it is still true that i am the only parent who regularly posts here, so thank you for wishing me a happy Father's Day, albeit a day early.
Dwtw
Actually, for the record, I'm a father also.
Happy Father's Day tomorrow to you, and anyone else here who has borne "the burden of the Attainment thereof".
Litllwtw
O.L.
While not posting so regulary these days, I am also a father, but German father's day was a few weeks ago. Happy Father's Day to all who are.
Happy Father's Day to the other two fathers (and to any lurkers, and to non-posters as well).
I asked a few years ago if anyone else had kids, and zero responses said yes i have kids, so i assumed i was alone in parentage.
If there is (and i agree that you may well be right), @katrice will probably know.
Thank you for your faith in me but honestly I have never seen any source for it before Levi, and I have looked for it. I suspect that the sphinx association may just come from 19th century Egyptomania.
Happy Fathers Day to the fathers out there!
Thank you for your faith in me but honestly I have never seen any source for it before Levi, and I have looked for it.
I've been eagerly waiting for you to chime in. Is there a sad trombone emoji?
I suspect that the sphinx association may just come from 19th century Egyptomania.
Like almost everything else? 😉
I've been eagerly waiting for you to chime in.
Aw, thank you! 😀
Is there a sad trombone emoji?
There really should be lol This will have to do. But it's like de Gebelin and de Mellet's connecting the Hebrew alphabet with the tarot, an example myth making at best but no documented historical evidence to support it being anything more.
Like almost everything else? 😉
Almost everything derived from the Golden Dawn and its direct antecedents, yes.
Alright, with @katrice saying she has looked and knows of no pre-Lévi source, pretty likely he is the origin here.
She having now spoken, there is only maybe @belmurru, or possibly my Mysterious Australian Correspondent, who might know any earlier source.
Aww, thanks!
I am completely open to being proven wrong.
At the very least it's worth understanding how many things have been invented, bent and obscured under said mania.
True, and I do prefer having accurate information. Not that the mythmaking necessarily invalidates anything. People still do use the Golden Dawn system, and Thelema, to good effect.
People still do use the Golden Dawn system, and Thelema, to good effect.
Certainly to ill-effect, too, although where that line is drawn is often too subjective to be useful as a line.
Certainly to ill-effect, too
Could you provide a few examples of what you judge to be "ill-effect"? I'm not particularly interested in the Golden Dawn, but I'm interested to hear what the "ill-effect" of too close an interest might be.
but I'm interested to hear what the "ill-effect" of too close an interest might be.
Too close an interest in the occult, or of things in general?
Certainly to ill-effect, too
Yes, of course. We discuss the deviants on a daily basis. It (the GD heritage) is like gunpowder, a motor vehicle, or absolutely anything else: It has the potential to go in two directions ... according to the state of one's mind.
A worthy project involves stripping away, and then Qliphothing, the dogmatic and philosophical rubble, to get to the core How-to-do-its (as finalized and issued as Libers).
Most of the hang-ups and arguments around here happen to revolve around philosophical concepts - rarely about doing the Libers.
Some Libers are philosophical in nature. I suppose one could read them once and then burn them in the Censer (censor), but the gold is found in the Class D stuff.
I'm interested to hear what the "ill-effect" of too close an interest might be.
As I just dis-cussed [what a word that is], some people get caught up in the dogma/philosophy, rather than just doing the work, and this ends up in power struggles, arguments, cursing, and [sometimes insanity or death - see NiChi.
Why, this very thread is an example. That is, I personally do not care about where some (any) saying or correspondence comes from, but I have been known to expound on the necessity to Keep Silent in magical operations - it is the final phase of any operation, and it has little to do with not talking about it with other people. It is a Silence of the Mind that releases the willed ball of fire, and we need to stand aside (unassuaged of purpose) and let things be.
Such a Silence of the Mind regarding one's work will surely extend to other people people, because how can one tell another about something that is not in their mind?
On the other appendage, we find people who run on about their work-in-progress. This is rarely nothing more than ego-enhancement (or reinforcement of the separate self) - what a drag.
The final ultimate part comes after the devas have done their work and the effect has manifested. Then one may feel free to expose their widardry ... with the understanding that one better be right in order to duck the clods and turds that will be thrown.
Too close an interest in the occult, or of things in general?
This does not answer the question about "ill-effects." Every specialist of any kind has a "close interest" in their specialty. Around here, we have a close interest in the life and work of AC. Since his method works, we seem to benefit from this too closeness.
Sorry, but your position seems to be guarded and pessimistic today, and some of us are not sure whate message or concept you are trying to express.
I think that what Michael was asking about was that @damien said people still do use the Golden Dawn system "to ill-effect"- he did not speak of occultism generally, but specifically about bad results from use of the Golden Damn material.
Perhaps this was not what he intended to say, but we are left to understand each other by the words written, not the thoughts behind them.
Too close an interest in the occult,
Thanks for the reply, Damien. I've been interested in the occult all my life, and have become more immersed in it as the decades have slipped by. I don't see that as an ill-effect, personally, but accept that many would perhaps see me as unbalanced: but that's their problem, not mine. As Dali said, the only difference between a madman and me is that I am not mad.
It's Masonic. In latin it is: Vida Aude Tace, & it's part of the original coat of arms, which is also carved in stone on the United Grand Lodge Of England. As Lévi was French this masonic motto would have been around a century already before he took up his pen.
In latin it is: Vida Aude Tace [sic]
No.
"Audi, Vide, Tace" (to give the correct word order, and Latin verb endings) means "Listen, Look, Keep Silent", and does not at all mean the same thing as "Know, Dare, Will, and Keep Silent". Nor does it have four "elements".
Sorry, but your position seems to be guarded and pessimistic today, and some of us are not sure whate message or concept you are trying to express.
I was mostly referring to the obfuscation of sources. Obviously some of what you said is true as well. I wasn't getting at any more or less than that, and definitely wasn't trying to be pessimistic.
Perhaps this was not what he intended to say, but we are left to understand each other by the words written, not the thoughts behind them.
Mea culpa. I should have been more clear.
@ignant666 I don't know latin & was going from memory, but I do know that your translation does not encompass a full understanding of these words from the Masonic perspective. The 'OP' asked, & I have delivered. If you don't see the connection here, then perhaps others will.
"Audi, Vide, Tace" (to give the correct word order, and Latin verb endings) means "Listen, Look, Keep Silent", and does not at all mean the same thing as "Know, Dare, Will, and Keep Silent". Nor does it have four "elements".
Very different, indeed. But, as said, if Levi is the lone source it would make sense that this could be where he got the inspiration.
@damien He had been a Mason himself for a time. Of course he would take from & adapt those things which he found suitable for his own teachings. Such as the esoteric meaning of this motto & then present it to the public. Someone much more knowledgeable than myself on the french masons of this period would be helpful here no doubt. Still, just after a cursory glance online as to the matter within modern Masonry, you can see that they preserve this & also how close it is to what you've been presented with through another channel.
The full version of the Masonic motto is "Audi, vide, tace, si vis vivere in pace" (translated as "Hear, see, be silent, if you would live in peace" here).
We might attain "knowing" by listening and looking, but not a lot of "daring" or "willing" going on there. And again there are three and not four verbs.
If we are willing to accept this as the origin of the Four Powers, here is the undoubted real source:
Well, there is that mason thing that says the sphinx has "the face of a man - wisdom/knowledge", has "the neck and flanks of a bull - power/will", has "the paws of a lion - courage/virtue" and "the wings of an eagle - silence/timeless" and it even can be found in the Lord's prayer: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever." Still I never encountered the exact words before Levy.
[silence]
Here is an extract from 'The Journal Of The Masonic Society' regarding this:
"One of the old Latin mottos of the Order is Vide, Aude, Tace— three verbs in the imperative or "command" tense. Vide in Latin means "see" in both the literal and figurative senses, and thus is connected to our words "visual" and "wit". The first refers only to the fact of seeing or not seeing something with our eyes. But the metaphorical meaning is what we mean when we exclaim, "Ah, I see!" We saw with our eyes, but later we actually understood. Similarly, we say "it finally dawned on me." Aude means "dare," and is the root of our word "audacity." A Mason must dare to apply to the Craft of his own free will and accord, and after he is initiated, it is his responsibility to embody such fortitude that he will be able to put the lessons of Freemasonry into practice. Aude follows Vide because there is benefit neither from uninformed daring nor from understanding without practical application.
Tace means "be silent," and is related to our words "tacit" and "taciturn." The command to remain silent may alludes the theme of Masonic silence in all of its dimensions. from the obligation that binds a Mason to his Craft, to the 1723 regulation requiring him to be "a lover of quiet," to the duty of every Mason to maintain in trust the secrets of his brethren, and even to the preservation of esoteric wisdom from the abuses of the profane."
Aude means "dare,"
Yes, it does. But most places citing this motto have it as "Audi", which means "hear", not "dare". We can see this more common "hear" version in the coat of arms of the United Grand Lodge Of England reproduced a couple posts above.
The first post you made about this phrase mentions that this phrase is is "carved in stone on the United Grand Lodge Of England." That is correct, with the word "Audi" quite clearly carved there:
This "Aude" variant version is clearly much closer to the "four powers" than the version included in the UGLE coat of arms. It would be helpful to provide a citation beyond simply "an extract from 'The Journal Of The Masonic Society'". The passage you provide does not appear to be available online.
I don't think its verboten I will just say that the way I was taught was that
it pretty much fits to the fotos:
Eagles also equal humans - know
Dragons - silence
Bulls - will
Lion - dare
are involved
and they are all very active.
DARE!!
....to grow a moustache.
DARE!! ...to grow a moustache.
Oh, i have.
But now i have failed to keep silent about it. Oh drat!
But now i have failed to keep silent about it. Oh drat!
Feer not! The Silent part is required only during that phase that begins with the release of the current (after all the ceremonies) and ends with the manifestation or result. Once the result has landed, it is too late to influence the outcome (by thinking, hoping, wishing, talking) and one is free to replace Silence with Speech.
Silence is golden.
Yeah yeah. Silence is golden. You THINK about knocking on the door of Destiny.
But Destiny is silent and never answers the door.
@alan_obrien Then you need to KICK in the door! You seize destiny, you don't wait for it.
Those who attempt to take, or actually take, heaven by force, by the sword (mind), or with the foot, are in company with the Asuras who are always causing trouble.
This of course is the backwards retropath, consisting of pushiness without inertia (resulting in being thrown out of heaven). The proper method does involve some sort of knocking, and when the door, portal, veil does open, just accept whatever is introduced without squeeking or moaning [silence].
Silence is not Golden. Kee-rist on a krumbling krutch! If "Silence" has any color at all, it is not silent. Forget running one's mouth. You either keep it shut, or they come to confront you. The true goal of Silence is Silence of the Mind. Either you shut it off, or you suffer according to the nature of the thoughts ... which probably are not the Voice in the Silence.