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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/10/2014 1:16 pm  

As I've found no special entry on RCs so far, I thought it worth discussing the origins of Thelema viz. the Rosicrucians in a new thread (as mentioned in the THOTH text on Atuย  XIX the R&C are still the basis in the new Aeon).

What resources on Rosicrucianism do you think important?

I found this book interesting: http://sacred-texts.com/sro/rrm/rrm12.htm - here the footnote was a TOTAL eye-opener to me: "the Crescent of the New Moon (lying on her back)" as I got the message only thenย  ๐Ÿ˜‰

What do you think about this book? Would you recommend others, too?

Thanks


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5028
30/10/2014 3:22 pm  
"Fomalhaut" wrote:
What resources on Rosicrucianism do you think important?

Thelema is self-contained, even though it draws on many historical societies and assorted phlosophers. RC is part of the pre-Thelemic history. The 5=6, 6=5 & 7=4 grades of A.'.A.'. are in the so-called Inner Order known as R.'.C.'., and the fifth degree of OTO is R.C. by name and design.

But then there's also the Templars, the Illuminati, the Gnostics, and especially ... The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which was based on RC principles and (apparently) papers. Crowley was a GD member (and even a 5=6) RC member) before he invented/received Thelema. One could be a "good" ๐Ÿ˜‰ Thelemite without ever researching any these historical precedents.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/10/2014 7:22 pm  

Amorc Unmasked is a pretty good book with a detailed description of the content in each grade. I assume that this book probably deals with the outer circle of the order.

And here is a lecture entitled Rosicrucianism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSRKNw-lTE

Here the lecturer present, among other things, the order's version of the tree of life where the left side belongs to Lucifer (the spiritual domain) and the right side Ahriman (the material world) - the Rosicrucian position himself between these two extremes.


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Tao
 Tao
(@tao)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 316
30/10/2014 8:23 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Thelema is self-contained, even though it draws on many historical societies and assorted phlosophers.

That is sort of like saying that the United States is self-contained, even though it draws on many historical societies and assorted phlosophers. While true in a way, it would be very misleading to suggest that the specifics of British Common Law, the Magna Carta, and the structure of ancient Rome weren't fundamental to the creation of its government and society.

Just as one can be a good American without any knowledge of this history, one can, as you say, be a good Thelemite in equal ignorance. But how much better off would the world currently be if a few more Americans actually understood the historical underpinnings of their society rather than believing that it sprung, fully formed, from the warlike skull of George Washington? How much better off might Thelemites be if they understood the centuries old threads of Love and Will, and the solar/stellar symbolism that weave their way through the Western Mystery tradition rather than believing they originate in a 1904 channelled text?

For sources on historical Rosicrucianism -- rather than the California-based pseudo-religious group AMORC -- you might reference:

Yates, Francis. The Rosicrucian Enlightenment.
Case, Paul Foster. The True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order.
Hall, Manly P. The Secret Teachings of All Ages.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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30/10/2014 8:58 pm  
"Tao" wrote:
While true in a way, it would be very misleading to suggest that the specifics of British Common Law, the Magna Carta, and the structure of ancient Rome weren't fundamental to the creation of its government and society.

Yes, you can say that, and it's true. But it's also true that, as an American, I can get along just fine by knowing local American Law & customs - without having to know one thing about Brits, Magnas, or Rome. In fact, many people do just that.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy studying history and Rosicucianism. They are fascinating subjects. But they are not necessary in order to be a Thelemite.


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
31/10/2014 4:24 am  
"Kharlatan" wrote:
Amorc Unmasked is a pretty good book with a detailed description of the content in each grade.

Interestingly when I looked that title up on Amazon (other booksellers are available!) I was about to come back and post saying blimey the reviews for it are terrible, and if you read those listed by default they are.... saying not to waste your money and giving it one stars etc. But then I noticed that of the 23 reviews 11 had rated it 5 stars! and 8, that dominated the page 1 stars... Me thinks that very suspicious! ::) Sadly I suspect many potential readers will be put off by that less than subtle manipulation of the reviews.

๐Ÿ˜€
Hamal


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soz
 soz
(@soz)
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Posts: 93
31/10/2014 4:35 am  

The reviews are sorted according to the number of people who found a review helpful.


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
31/10/2014 5:53 am  
"soz" wrote:
The reviews are sorted according to the number of people who found a review helpful.

Yes, in which case the negative reviews were clearly vastly more helpful than the more plentiful positive reviews!ย  ๐Ÿ˜‰

๐Ÿ˜€
Hamal


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
31/10/2014 5:03 pm  

It is stated in one of the oaths, which is mentioned in the book, that the members are obligated to defend Amorc against critique.

For me it's the unbiased info, for example mantras in relation to out of body projection, the description of methods etc. which are interesting. The author's reflections on hypnotism is quite simple. He credits almost every phenomena described arising from the exercises to hypnotism. In some exercises I agree, in others i don't. A. O. Spare claimed that exterior forces operated through the sub-consciousness. For him the hypnagogic state would be a mean to access the sub-consciousness. In other exercises, for instance inducing a hypnagogic state and telling you self that the aura of the candle light is blue, and then it's aura corresponds to what you are telling your self, then it's not impossible that the phenomena can be credited to self hypnotism.

The body of knowledge presented in the book and on the youtube video is surprisingly close to Austin Osman Spare's.


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Hamal
(@hamal)
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Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 547
31/10/2014 6:04 pm  
"Kharlatan" wrote:
It is stated in one of the oaths, which is mentioned in the book, that the members are obligated to defend Amorc against critique.

For me it's the unbiased info, for example mantras in relation to out of body projection, the description of methods etc. which are interesting. The author's reflections on hypnotism is quite simple. He credits almost every phenomena described arising from the exercises to hypnotism. In some exercises I agree, in others i don't. A. O. Spare claimed that exterior forces operated through the sub-consciousness. For him the hypnagogic state would be a mean to access the sub-consciousness. In other exercises, for instance inducing a hypnagogic state and telling you self that the aura of the candle light is blue, and then it's aura corresponds to what you are telling your self, then it's not impossible that the phenomena can be credited to self hypnotism.

The body of knowledge presented in the book and on the youtube video is surprisingly close to Austin Osman Spare's.

Thanks Kharlatan, I think I'll pick up a copy, sounds interesting.

๐Ÿ˜€
Hamal


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steve_wilson
(@steve_wilson)
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Posts: 155
02/11/2014 7:14 am  

Of course, it is worth remembering that the origin story of the RCs is almost certainly a hoax, but then so is the origin story of the GD, Wicca, all Freemasonry beyond Blue Lodge and the branch of Druidry descended from the ADO. Probably. Oh yes, and Christianity as well.

For further info see Christopher Mackintosh on the RCs, Professors Robert Eisenmann on Xtianity and Ronald Hutton on all of the rest except Freemasonry, John Robinson is rather good there.


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1025
02/11/2014 10:04 am  

I find nothing intrinsically implausible about unbroken chains of master-student builders, operative masons, from the earliest momumental structures until today. The basic principles of engineering haven't changed, there's always been the compass and the square, with the plumb line, whether applied to a Temple, Church, or Mosque. When the new regime moved in, changed the religion and name of the structure, the authorities would have to use the same builders, with their traditional methods, that had always been there. Empires come and go, wash over the land and then retreat. The same geometry that an apprentice had used to build a temple to Diana in his youth was used to build a Christian Church in his old age. Hence the mason's universalism - it's all the same God, the great geometer. Of course, in most times and places it was not safe to openly proclaim such a belief. Only in the company of fellow masons could this transcendence of sectarianism, the unity of all religions, be expressed. But still they built.

This unity, this particular vision of God, arises naturally in the contemplation of geometry. Seeing it work everywhere is proof that it is the same God everywhere. We need not assume the existence of speculative lodges or guilds devoted to philosophy to account for the unity of the mason's vision down through the millenia. I'm a Pagan, I'm a Jew, I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim; let me build a house to God's glory, I'll praise him through the eternal principles of geometry.

If the oldest Master is 65, and the youngest Apprentice 15, that is a difference of 50 years, what I call an "intellectual generation". In a few years, the youngster would learn the wisdom of 50 years, which his Master had in turn learned in his own Apprenticeship, and adding new knowledge and technology when he passed it on to the next generation. Assuming that a few of these intellectual generations actually persisted, it only takes 100 of them to reach back to the time of the Pyramids, 5000 years. 100 links is not a lot for the whole of history.

Languages change, cultures change, political regimes come, and go, new religions demand allegiance, technology changes, and the myths, the stories of this tradition, adapt to the new conditions; but the underlying principles do not change. The symbolism of the square and compasses is something that Imhotep would have understood.


A mosaic from Pompeii


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5028
02/11/2014 2:01 pm  
"steve_wilson" wrote:
Of course, it is worth remembering that the origin story of the RCs is almost certainly a hoax, but then so is the origin story of the GD, Wicca, all Freemasonry beyond Blue Lodge and the branch of Druidry descended from the ADO. Probably. Oh yes, and Christianity as well.

Buddha was conceived when a six-tusked elephant impregnated his mother. ;D

Sometimes the story is believable. But, other times, like with Buddha and Jesus - how can people believe this crap?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/11/2014 2:34 pm  

The core is probably very universal, yes. I really enjoyed your post belmurru. Evola underlined the universalism of alchemy in his work The hermetic tradition. For instance the mantra mathra invoked an allegoric sequence which ended with me opening an dragon egg (the dragon inside the egg is probably a representation of the elements) after an encounter with the dweller of the threshold. I did not pass the test. First I tried to interpret the dream with the method of psychoanalysis, but the content didn't fit with anything I've experienced. The alchemic symbolism made me curious and two years later I found a webpage written by a rosicrucian which described an encounter with the dweller. The exact same phenomena occured, the head grew out after the hero tried to decapitate it. The correct way of removing it according to the story on the webpage was burning it away with fire. The mantra, or word is obviously related to the mystery of vitriol. I say no more.

In Austin Osman Spare The focus of life, in The nature are more atrocious illustration, An egg with 3 triangles within it is shown (the women are probably a representation ofย  the triangles within the egg). In AAAos recovering from the death posture they are manifesting, coming out of the egg (in the bottom right corner of the illustration). AAAos also had a meeting with his dweller - the devil.


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steve_wilson
(@steve_wilson)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 155
16/11/2014 4:10 pm  
"belmurru" wrote:
I find nothing intrinsically implausible about unbroken chains of master-student builders, operative masons, from the earliest momumental structures until today.

Neither do I,ย  which is why I specifically excluded Blue Lodge from my list.


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