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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
19/12/2006 9:48 am  

93, all!

I am interested in some opinions on the following:

Performing a Sex Magick Ritual without letting your sex partner know about this. Is this possible? Is it un-thelemic? Is it okay? Is it what?

Thanks in advance for any contributions.

Love=Law
Lutz


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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19/12/2006 4:19 pm  

LUTZ & Wolf-

93!

My first response to this question is that it's, of course, respectful and just the plain ol' right thing to do to let your partner know what's going on...but then I stopped. And now I don't think so...necessarily! Engaging in sex is one action (albeit a powerful one). So is engaging in conversation. And Magick is not necessaily something which requires any full-blown ritual get-up to happen. Situations unfold and present all kinds of possibilities to the perceptive field. To decide that "no magick in sex without full consent" is your modus operandi is to then limit and restrict the flow of the spirit. It's a type of Restriction which is the Law of Sin..."Sin" against WHAT-? I'd say it's a sin against the freedom, agape and will of the cosmos as it moves in our body-minds.

Granted, a dual-working with both partners AWARE that something (ahem) "Magickal" is going down can yield up wonderful points of connection and wonderful results. But so can a joint-meditation or a ritual two people perform together at their kitchen table. And YET (having done all of the above), even the "joint-workings" remain experiences unique to ourselves, even when worked in unison with a definite passing of shared energy.

So, I guess we need to ask: WHAT do we mean by MAGICK? And what exactly is it that we're doing Magickally (and specifically while having sex)? I think we could argue that Vampirizing your partner or engaging towards some end which is fundementally opposed to that person's will or desire really isn't the Path of Thelema. But if Thelema is our Path and we are shooting for the Goals of Agape and Will (with all corresponding details and workings flowing in that direction), we are operating to change and expand our own experience (and thus, that of the Universe) rather than deceiving someone into being part of our low-level agenda. I'm not saying one's magick must be a vague mystical thing-but I find that the "results magick" which Chaos Magick focuses so much on (getting some money, overcoming a foe etc) ought to be cast in the Light of the Overall and Grand Movement of Will-the Cosmic Will as it manifests in our very individual dramas on Earth.

I suppose I consider the entirety of the Continuum and our every moment in it to be rife with Magick. It just changes and takes new forms continuously. Some with the "get up" and some quite hidden to even our own "outward eye." And if this is so, then every act ought to be "Unto Nuit" in as much as every moment is a coupling, a dynamic sex act in and of itself. And this also expresses itself in human relations but such are a continuace and shifting of power in the Whole.

Sticky topic, perhaps. My opinion is certainly subject to change! LOL!!!

I think asking your Angel is the best option.

HE'LL know what's OK! And then so will YOU! πŸ˜‰

I've got to go...and get some money and overcome some foes! πŸ˜†

Agape, gents!

Kyle


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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19/12/2006 8:00 pm  

93, Kyle and wolf354!

Thanks for your responses. For convenience let us just assume it is technically possible to perform a ritual without having your partner being aware of it. With partner I mean sex partner in this instance, so it doesn't have to be someone who is your "real" partner (sounds silly, but you know what I mean, don't you?), who probably wouldn't be "deceived" anyway. So, all the prepatory work of the ritual is being done in secrecy and the sex energy is used by you for a magical working while the sex partner is just aware of you two having sex. I think this is a plausible and possible scenario. Of course I am not really talking about agape or romantic love. Of course I am talking about sufficiently enough wild sex to raise sufficient Kundalini energy. And if Nuit fits, she might be adressed in this ritual. I hope I could explain the situation I think of. What do you think of such a thing? Is it a kind of betrayal? In any sense of the word? Is this a un-thelemic behaviour? Is it a kind of vampirism? Is it okay when - like Kyle suggested - there is no harm whatsoever to the unsuspecting sex partner? Or is it no "real" Sex Magick at all? Did AC say anything on this? Or are there any order regulations about this?

Just curious...

Love=Law
Lutz


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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19/12/2006 9:37 pm  

I don't think I could add a single word to those Wolf just wrote.

Wonderful post, 354!

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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19/12/2006 9:50 pm  

I dont think sex magick means having a bit of fun behind your ladys back.
I find it hard to read things written about sex magick anyway, its all seems very complicated on paper.
You should come to a club I know where people piss on eachother, then you might be able to have a better understanding.


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frater_cug
(@frater_cug)
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19/12/2006 11:00 pm  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
Is it a kind of betrayal? In any sense of the word?

93.

Betrayal? Of who? As long as your not stepping on anyones Will I see no problem with it. (Good time to use your favorite divination method)

Or is it no "real" Sex Magick at all? Did AC say anything on this? Or are there any order regulations about this?

If you read a certain copyrighted document you will see Crowley say (and I paraphrase here) It is possible, and might be necessary to not include the partner in the ritual. And Crowley found it to work just splendidly.

That said, My personal experience is that when the partner has no knowledge of it.. It's more of a solo sex magick ritual (The partner is just a very complex masturbation tool in this case πŸ˜‰ ) and the "Gluten of the White Eagle" does not pack as much of a magical punch as a partner who fully involved in the ritual.


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 Anonymous
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20/12/2006 12:35 am  

What is tricky here is one persons freedom ends where another person's freedom begins. And a partner is not an implement, its a human being with his or her own unique will and spirit and besides, you wouldn't use a friend's wand, or cup or sword without permission and without their knowledge, would you?
Personally, I feel the motive of not asking for consent in sex magick is not really all that different from not asking for consent in regular sex; just on a different plane. You are using something that really is for someone else to give without permission. Thats just me, though and who knows, I could be way off mark.
There really is not right or wrong or ethical or unethical in magick, just choice and consequences.


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Proteus
(@proteus)
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Posts: 243
20/12/2006 3:25 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Did AC say anything on this?

From Confessions
"Each individual has an absolute right to satisfy his sexual instinct as is physiologically proper for him. The one injunction is to treat all such acts as sacraments."

Note Crowley's use of the singular: 'him' vice 'them'. That said, this quote seems a bit inconsistent with its use of 'sacraments' and 'instincts'. On the other hand, maybe this Jechidah - Nephesch union was intentional...hmmm...

John "a freak in a dime museum"

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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20/12/2006 6:19 am  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
LUTZ & Wolf-

93!

Agape, gents!

Greetings

93

"Agape"!!! "Gents"!!!! Wherefore Greetings for our Sorors???

It may be pertinant when giving the Thelemic Greetings, to bear in mind, "That every man & every woman, is a Star".

93/93

Regards Argentum Star


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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20/12/2006 12:44 pm  

93, care fratres et sorores!

Thanks a lot for all the answers. A few clarifications from my side: I am definitely NOT looking for some "fun behind my lady's back". Au contraire, I guess it would be a lot easier and more fun to have a "regular" double-focused ritual. Also I am pretty sure I am in no need of any sex variations as presented in certain clubs, thanks badfreddy. The thing is that I recently found myself nearly in an "unwanted" or unplanned state of "kind of ritualistic sex" (meaning during "regular" sex I had very strong visions) and wanted some opinions if this is an issue anywhere or even an "officially" recognized form of ritualistic sex. So special thanks for the Crowley quotes. I always had the suspicion that his sex magick partners (especially during his America phase) couldn't possibly all have comprehended the notion of sex magick, even if they were informed that they were a part of it.

All the best also from my wife, we just celebrated our 22nd anniversary...

Love=Law (as usual that says it all best)
Lutz

P.S. Badfreddy, you are right. It always looks kind of stupid to post about something and having to include so many exclamation marks. And moreover, denying something in a post on the internet has the same effect as writing "this is something that happened to a friend of a friend of a colleague of mine"...


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Posts: 5322
20/12/2006 4:26 pm  

Lutz,

I'm more than a little disappointed by the quality of responses on LAShTAL.COM to your request for information.

Perhaps I'm naive, but surely we could have expected a better quality of response on this site to a serious question about sex magick than a suggestion that people pissing on each other will lead to "Understanding". It's right up there with the observation on another thread that the spiritually significant vesica piscis on the OTO lamen "looks like a cunt".

It's easy to overestimate the intelligence and maturity of other members. And it's all rather disappointing and depressing.

Paul

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/12/2006 5:08 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
It's easy to overestimate the intelligence and maturity of other members. And it's all rather disappointing and depressing.

Whats sugesting a regular night club where fetishism is explored got to do with any lack of maturity?


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
20/12/2006 5:38 pm  

Whats sugesting a regular night club where fetishism is explored got to do with any lack of maturity?

Well, my guess would be because it had NOTHING to do, really, with where Lutz was trying to go with this. I thought it to be a quite "off topic" suggestion myself.

Lutz, never ONCE did I read your post to imply some kind of "affair". I assumed you were speaking of a sexual ritual with your wife and I think it's pretty pathetic you were put in a position to had to even clear that up but then I also understand how even the slightest slant on an email/post can cause people to read things in a different way.

I didnt post on this topic because I really dont have a clear opinion on this myself. I thought your question was PERFECT for Lashtal to consider and looked forward to the replies myself. I have to agree with Paul in that some of them we're not really what i'd hoped for.

For what it's worth, heres my (somewhat) take on this. I dont think it's a big deal at all to perform some type of sex magick ritual and not inform your partner of this. As long as it's not hurtful to that person I dont see why one would have to inform their partner. I mean people fantasize about other people (besides their partners) all the time while having sex and nobody is the wiser. Is that mean? Is it fair? Well, I dont know. Maybe the old saying "what you dont know wont hurt you" could apply here.

HOWEVER in some types of sex magick you might WANT to inform your partner. For example, if you're raising sexual energies and want to evoke an entity using more than just the outer act.. i.e intonations etc.. your probably going to want to tell her before hand so she's not thinking you've lost your mind and force you into therapy. (LOL) So I guess it would really depend on the ritual, whether or not you'd HAVE to tell her. To get to the basic question you proposed however my opinion is no, you dont need to tell your partner.

I hope this has helped in some small way Lutz. I'm sorry I couldnt be more organized with my thoughts here. At work. πŸ™‚

Agape!
Kym


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 Anonymous
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20/12/2006 5:43 pm  

Hi Lutz,

First of all congratulations on having maintained a union with your Mrs for so long, I think it is wonderful, all the best to you both.

Second, I am quite glad that you have raised this line of enquiry as I am unsure about the ethics of sex magick myself.

I thought that was an interesting reflection made about Crowley's partners having been told but not being necessarily aware of the true nature of what they were partaking in. I think being single and not necessarily surrounding oneself with other Occultist's can be said to be quite similar to that scenario. Is it ok if you inform a person and they commit willingly? or?..etc

I am afraid I cant offer much by way of knowledge or advice for your situation as I havent enough experience, but I imagine that as long as your partner knows then I dont see the problem, especially as from what you are saying it was unintended?
Incidentally is she a practitioner? I dont know if that would make a difference, maybe ?

Raych x


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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20/12/2006 5:48 pm  

Star-LOL! I was addressing both Lutz & Wolf specifically with the "gents" remark. And it was made made with a smile of Good Will. Lashtal.com as a whole seems to be dominated by men in terms of active forum posters and when some of the Sorors do speak, it is a very welcomed contribution....you'll note SubRosa's post came after mine. And I think it goes without saying that she's a Star Burning Bright!

As to Lutz's question clarification-I can only return to my very first comments, which addressed how Magick runs through ALL of our Life. I'm not trying to be vague or sentimental here...as one is open to the Current and consciously working with it, its energy resides in and ripples through our very being. It spontaneously emerges, as well as responds to directed efforts on our part to further fuel it.

The original question certainly evoked a brief discussion of ethical considerations and I think Lutz's last post has more than cleared this up as to the direction his question is leaning.

Crowley speaks quite a bit about not profaning the Talisman (wasting the semen) in The Law Is For All. I think these are GREAT pages to read regarding the use and power of both the energy and the climax/ejaculate. Obviously only a small percentage of this activity will result in the creation of a child, but Crowley states that EVERY orgasm/ejaculate produces a child of some sort on some plane. What and how that child will be is relative to what is brought into the act in the consciousness of the Magician.

What you describe is very familiar to my own experience and I feel no guilt or problem or issue with it-in fact, both my partner and myself have shared with each in retrospect many such occurences and experiences that were unaniticpated but clearly came to the fore. The results of these "children" is usually noted in my/our diaries, whether we chat about it or not. And I find that such things often are experiences which continue to take form and hold significance later on.

I think SubRosa brought up a good point...one might not feel so hot thinking they've been "used" as a tool for part of your own gig. But one might also be very intrigued and interested to have shared in a powerful experience (sensually alone) which they then discover has taken on a larger significance for you. In some ways, it may be seen as an honor and even deepen a sense of personal intimacy.

But this would all depend on so many things...how one's partner tends to feel about such things in general etc. I personally don't think one needs to overthink and draw such hard boundaries between the love shared, the desire expressed and the experience of the mind and soul in sex. And I think that Crowley (who certainly deserves as much consideration as criticism for the insights he labored hard to leave with those who'd follow) is very insightful in the Law is for All. One leaves his words with a sense that everything is alive-everything is Holy-and we are free to develop our powers to access that living stream in all its forms! Sex is certainly a natural power engine (one may say THE power engine) for such energy generation and release. What you describe seems to get even beyond a mental-determination to "Do thy Will" and interacts with WILL on a much larger level of consciousness.

Personally, I wish you greater and more wonderful openings of the Thousand Petaled Lotus!

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/12/2006 5:50 pm  

I think this forum needs a 'general chit chat' page. people on here have too muct time on there hands.,, a 300 word response to such a daft topic is barmy


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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20/12/2006 5:59 pm  

a daft topic

I don't think Aleister Crowley would docket the topic in this category at all-! And if he were here, I'm sure his own writing hands would have a few words to say on the topic.

Just a hunch.

πŸ˜†

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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20/12/2006 6:02 pm  

I think Adonia may have gotten to the heart of this, for me at least in that it does depend on what your intentions are.

Good luck lutz, (jammy sod) πŸ˜†


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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20/12/2006 6:07 pm  

93 badfreddy,

Obviously your previous posts are unhelpful and intended more to disrupt than to enlighten. Therefore, please send all future posts to me via private message for pre-moderation.

93 93/93
Ian


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frater_cug
(@frater_cug)
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20/12/2006 6:46 pm  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
93, care fratres et sorores!
The thing is that I recently found myself nearly in an "unwanted" or unplanned state of "kind of ritualistic sex" (meaning during "regular" sex I had very strong visions) and wanted some opinions if this is an issue anywhere or even an "officially" recognized form of ritualistic sex.

Just from that short statement it sounds to me what happened was similar to the effects of Eroto-comatose Lucidity (minus the coma part)

So special thanks for the Crowley quotes. I always had the suspicion that his sex magick partners (especially during his America phase) couldn't possibly all have comprehended the notion of sex magick, even if they were informed that they were a part of it.

Very true.. if you look at the way Crowley described some of them (Prostitutes of the lowest sort, etc...) I find it hard to believe he was even capable of discussing it with them without zooming WAY over their heads.

"subrosa" wrote:
What is tricky here is one persons freedom ends where another person's freedom begins

Freedom? I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about. Will? How could someones freedom be affected?

And a partner is not an implement, its a human being with his or her own unique will and spirit

Did you miss the πŸ˜‰ What I saying was without both parties knowledge of the operation, it is in effect the same as a masturbatory sex magick working. (Not the sex, just the magick part of it) Yes there is a boost of energy over a true solo act but it's pretty small when compaired to one when both partners a fully involved in the operation.

I feel the motive of not asking for consent in sex magick is not really all that different from not asking for consent in regular sex; just on a different plane.

You're entitled to your opinion but equating it to rape is way over the top IMHO.

and besides, you wouldn't use a friend's wand, or cup or sword without permission and without their knowledge, would you?

I don't think that comparison works very well. In normal cases you just don't use other peoples magical tools. I would however use say normal hosehold items for magical purposes without their knowledge. It's a matter of putting to use something you already have access to, vrs something you don't normally have access to.

Gah I don't think I put that into words very well.. feel free to grill me on it if you don't understand what I'm saying. πŸ™‚


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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20/12/2006 11:39 pm  

Allo' Bonjour! Veinght-huit et tres!

I wanted to get an alternative point of view on this subject so I asked my common-law husband of two years (and best friend for 8), as a Buddhist and definately not a Magician, how he feels about the subject. It's came up before but in terms of this thread. He knows that I practice and he's aware of what I do, why I do it and how, also what may be going on during sex. Oh, and I can thank him for translating the number 93 in French for me. πŸ˜† Sounds beautiful, no? As far as Sex Magick, as so many people have said and he agrees, it depends on what sort of ritual you're doing, but as far as something totally internal, and I can only speak for my own experience and what works for me in my relationship, my partner has been made aware that this may be happening (thoughts, visions, mental evokations, etc.) during the act and he's okay with that. He may one day be open to a more outter ritual, but that is something which is specificaly not his Will at this time. So, in this case, and same goes if I hadn't asked him, trying something like that just wouldn't fly. And Magick being so uncommon in that form, like Adonia said, it would seem and I paraphrase, a little nuckin' futs. πŸ˜€ The main point he holds is that a person sould still be into the Sex itself as a conjoined act between two people out of love and passion, and not to seperate themselves from that. We're definately not too shy about our personal lives and I hope that doesn't reflect badly on us here. I also hope this is a worthwhile contribution. This is just a living example of this situation and how it can happen, and also how its' been delt with.

Cheers,

Vilaven


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 Anonymous
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21/12/2006 2:35 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

[Moderator note: removed copyrighted material. It was a limited portion of an unpublished copyrighted document, to which "fair use" could hardly be said to apply.]

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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21/12/2006 3:05 am  

It is horrifyingly rare to find an Eagle genuinely capable of initiated co-operation

Any thoughts on why Crowley viewed the male and female dynamic this way with regards to magick?

I believe it's probably as close to factual as one can get with regards to the time it was written and also with regards to his own experience however I dont believe this to be factual at the present time.

I write this thinking of the occult interest amongst women today, the resources available, personal knowledge of such women occultists and of course my own magickal work. However I'm wondering if Crowley wasn't trying to suggest something about the "intrusion" of the female nature aside from her obvious biological role in the working. Did he feel that her female energies brought to the conscious level would create problems with the direction of the work?

As a woman I dont find a problem with the male component brought to awareness in such workings directed by me, the female magician. Is Crowley hinting at a fundemental conflict underlying the fundemental "fit" of the biological aspect of the work, which is best directed by something inherent in the male?

Love to hear some thoughts on this. πŸ™‚

Agape and 93,
Kym


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 Anonymous
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21/12/2006 3:48 am  

Dear Adonia444:

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

One might seek either wisdom of folly within Chapters 134 and 175 of Liber Aleph. Of course this will only throw additional kindling to the now ignited stake.

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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21/12/2006 4:16 am  

93!
Crowley was a genius and in my opinion one of the greatest teachers we have to open up to ourselves, however, it is well known that Crowley did not hold women in high regard. Before I read these posts today, I was just thinking about how his life would have been much different if the people ( particularly women) that he encountered would have treated him a bit different. His first relationship with a female, his mother, brewed nothing more than contempt, from my interpretation and has set the stage for all his perceptions to come, paired with the fact, he obviously had sexual issues (closet homosexual) didn't help much to further his opinions, we need to take that into consideration especially women when studying and performing rituals, etc. dealing with sex, his work will be centered around himself, with little or no respect for the female aspect, this is where women can add to this and learn from it. I know we've gotten off subject, but to answer real_simon_iff, original question, in my opinion, Yes, you can definetly perform ritual (s) , etc. on in internal basis without your partner being the wiser, If I actually told my partner what I was doing, and why, By the time I explained everything the mood would have already passed. πŸ˜‰
∞Q
93, 93/93


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daopig
(@daopig)
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21/12/2006 5:02 am  

This thread has a serious undercu'nt, IMO.

She (who happens to have a voice like Monty Python's Brian's Mom)
Him (it could be Brian, why not? Except he is not shagging um. you know.)

She : "You're doing it again!"
Him : "No I am not."
She : "Yes you are, I just saw you! That qabalistic doo dah. With your finger."
Him : "No I wasn't."
She : "Never mind, get on with it. Bloody hell this is taking ages."
Him : "Aka duah"
She : "What did you say?"
Him : "Nothing."
She : "You're doing that bloomin magick again. Behind my back!"
Him (Gulp): "No I'm not."
She (sigh) : "Never mind. (pause) You know what sometimes I wish you bloody would."

etc.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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21/12/2006 5:29 am  

That gave me a chuckle. πŸ˜†

Vi


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
21/12/2006 6:23 am  

One might seek either wisdom of folly within Chapters 134 and 175 of Liber Aleph. Of course this will only throw additional kindling to the now ignited stake.

93 666TSABE,

Yes, I guess it's time for me to bring out the oldies but goodies. I supose I could probably answer some of my own questions if I only took the time to re-visit my library. Thanks for pointing these chapters out to me. I'll have to re-read this and maybe introduce the topic in a new thread. However, I dont have any intentions of "throwing kindling on a now ignited stake" as much as that made me laugh and pique an interest. πŸ˜†

93 93/93
Kym


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 2:36 am  

I don't understand the initial question. What would be the point of doing Sex Magick with an unwilling partner? Oh I've just remembered, you could do it as a vampire of course but I suspect that may be not the best idea if it happens to be the mother/father of your children. No infideleity in that case would be far better and even then a bit sick unless the 'victim' was willing. Girl/boyfriend too, if they aren't into it what are you doing with them, it will only hurt more in the end. For you too, not just them.
It seems to me that if your will says, "I need a sex magick partner to progress", and that is what you think too and think hard, then dump fore mentioned person and find someone else. Don't be a sado and stick with someone 'because you love them'. I hope you do love them enough to let them go.

I speak from sad experience here. If you love someone but want to change them, hope they find someone else, even before yourself and move on. For fuck sake I though this was a Thelemic conference site.

Alex


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 3:02 am  

I don't understand the initial question

Well for someone who doesnt understand the initial question you sure seem to have quite the opinion on it.

😯


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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22/12/2006 3:07 am  

Hold on a sec-! LUTZ asked a sincere question which is quite relevant to a topic of great importance to Thelema and certainly worthy of a discussion where people can share insights, reference points and varying points of view.

Reading ALL of the above posts, it seems that the general idea pertains to involving another person, a sex partner, in a magickal working without their knowledge of such a thing taking place. This really doesn't have specific bearing on whether or not we're dealing with a happy couple or not. My own comments in this direction tried to indicate that Magick (per se) occuring during sex, whether spontaneous or directed, is not a betrayal of that person's involvement. My own opinion-and subject to change. And this for the reasons I stated above. That the pursuit of Magick is not as a temporal means to a temporal end but rather an all-encompassing thing. If temporal ends are sought in specific workings, I have no problem with that but see their value as being overshadowed by the Great Work, the relevance to one's WILL-Itself relevant to the Cosmic Will. In this case, every act, from sex and sex magick to putting on one's clothes to starting one's car and driving into a rising sun are all part of that great flux of reality/unreality which may be unveiled to reveal the pulse of the Divine. I see no "vampirism" therein but one's body and soul expressing unfoldment of the Light. Whether one's partner is conscious of such a thing or not, if it be "unto Nu" and according to Will, it can only be a blessing to the Universe.

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 3:59 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

This thread seems to some up to me the fundamental problem in Thelema, within and without magickal orders; it being some sort of egocentric competition. Sex Magick is messing with the most fundamental living urge in oneself. The only thing that is equally dangerous to mess with is death or Necromantic Arts, in fact they are linked, even the same really.
Some people think it is the 6 mile high club of the occult, to do 'sex magick'. In fact it is the death of their ego not it's salvation. Why not try a slower safer approach?

In Left Hand Path Thelemic Tantrika (the experts in this) you have to rid yourself of not just your ego but your ignorance, revulsion, attachment and clinging to life, all at the same time, in order to do such magick. If one were to try to overcome their own limitations rather than trying to force someone to conform to their will, they may have more success. Overcoming completely the revulsion of the partners sexual organ would be the best first step. If your a straight woman swallow your partners semen until you learn to really enjoy it, for instance. If a straight man use cunilingus as a cure for your partners period pains, drinking the blood as you go, at the very least, in fact do it all the time if you can till you crave it. That would be just the start to gently try and delicately develope the tools on the material level, well before actually doing anything magickal with the massive energies released. Some initiates just aren't going to be ready this life, for full sex magick. In that case masturbation techniques are the best approach. Sex with the goddess or god using visualisation.

The very last thing to do is to join a magickal order whilst married to a christian and expect to have sex magick with your unsuspecting spouse. Stop worrying about it, Sex Magick is very rare even amoungst those in the know, despite all the books. Find out who you really are (Holy Gaurdian Angel), talk to you partner about who you are, be honest with them, truthfull and loving. Do not constantly deceive them and still stay with them. Help them to develop in their own way. Then if you are really lucky, Nuith and Hadith (Sadashiva) will chose you both one lovely perfect night as their sacrament. After all, that's all it is really.

Alex

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 4:23 am  

Alright. Several questions.

Sex Magick is messing with the most fundamental living urge in oneself.

How is sex magick "messing with us"? Isn't that the most fundemental concern we as magician have??!!

Secondly.

The only thing that is equally dangerous to mess with is death or Necromantic Arts, in fact they are linked, even the same really.

If this is dangerous it's inevitable. We all live and we all die. And Nuit is continuous. As we ourselves move through this process it's our work to understand how to be more than passive participants in this process.

Thirdly. How is participating actively in this process in a creative way "unsafe"?? I'm really curious as to your opinion/experience here. We are here to grow in experience and understanding. Whatever conditions are part of this are very unique to ourselves and cant be limited by any given programme.


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 4:30 am  

Ok, I hit send instead of quote so I guess i'll just continue here. Oppsie.

If one were to try to overcome their own limitations rather than trying to force someone to conform to their will, they may have more success.

Nobody was saying you should try and force someone to conform. The question is do you inform your partner of the fact that you might be employing sex magick rituals during intercourse. INFORM, not FORCE. HUGE difference.

93 93/93
Kym


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 4:45 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Nuit and Hadit are but abstract symbolic universal descriptors. In this context, they represent the Circle and the Point within. Thus they serve as a template to be inhabited by the Operators. They in themselves do not β€œchoose” for the energies must be prepared and developed. This requires a consciousness in embodiment. Hence the mantra and chakra work, culminating with the arousal of the kundalini to the necessary levels. Only when this has been accomplished, and in perfect simultaneity with the partner, will the powers of Creation channel to their designated ends. Here logic would imply that an absentee knowledge of the operations purpose by either party, would render the goal sterile.

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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22/12/2006 4:57 am  

93 666TSAEB,

Yes, I think you've pointed out a very important area in the workings of sex magick. I agree with your post but would you also agree that is is possible to perform a successful sex ritual by oneself whilst embodying Nuit and Hadit within and without a corresponding physical partner? Just to be clear, are you suggesting that the only way to be successful is to have both a male and female sexual encounter with both fully knowing that the ritual is taking place? Surely your not suggesting this.

93 93/93
Kym


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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22/12/2006 5:01 am  

Alex-

I appreciate the general gist of your post-which seems to be honoring the Star within your partner. I personally think that honoring the Star within EVERYONE is a very important thing, as it reflects an ability within ourselves to see the Universe in an Enlightened Way. It evokes great Compassion and Insight and harmonizes with the Current. Personally, I think your advice to overcome the revulsion of your partner's sexual organ is a bit ambiguous. Do you presuppose "revulsion?" I don't have any such revusion. Nor do I think my lack of such is ANY indicator of "advancement" on the Path. And, in fact, I know of many folks who have NO interest in "Magick" who have no such "revulsion." The Whole Key I think is found in Crowley's The Law Is For All. In this book he states that it is not enough to KNOW One's Will. One must BE One's Will. And then there is no conflict. One is simply in the active energetic process of the Going. And in doing such, One cannot do any wrong. One can only Unfold.

I don't think the "issue" needs to be as complicated or as painful as it seems to be. Esp. when considering the initial inquiry. And at the risk of becoming redundant to the point of tears, Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law.

Or else, what's an Angel for-?

Crikey.

93. Really.

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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22/12/2006 8:21 am  

Global Orgasm in 10 hours!
http://www.globalorgasm.org/
Throw some of that Bi-sexual and BDSM power exchange/role playing into this discussion and it might be more intresting! So little time--so many sex/magick currents yet to explore.. even in vanilla het sex.


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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22/12/2006 11:42 am  

Alex, 93!

Just to make one thing clear: you made some very good observations and contributions and you were totally correct about one thing: you did not understand my initial question. You don't have to be a Thelemite (it is enough to be an honest, respectful and responsible human being) to see that it is not a good idea to vampirize your partner - in any way. This thread was not intended as a course to learn how to stick to non-Thelemic partners while secretly using them as magical sex tools, because it might be easier to find a non-Thelemic partner in "real life". Maybe AC was of a different opinion, but as a Thelemite I hold the right to have sex also in non-magical ways when I or my partner desire so. During one of these "standard sex" acts I had some highly fascinating experiences and was totally (well, nearly totally) unprepared for that. And I inquired for opinions on such occurances, since I am far from being an expert or an initiate in Sex Magick, or magick at all. I happen to be a slow student. Which works well for me and I like the feeling that I am exploring Magick not because I fail to "function" or feel "at home" in "standard real life", but because I know that "standard real life" might be a good place to get a decent steak or buy a good book, but it is just a little excerpt of "real life". Okay, this is getting too far now. Just wanted to clear things up. And I am happy that I have not reached a state (and hope I never will) where I have to choose between my family/friends/"standard real life" and Thelemic success. But this is a Thelemic DISCUSSION and conference board open to ALL (who stick to its basic rules). And even if I might admire high degree initiates, abyss-crossers, and all widely and higher experienced persons in general and often seek advice from them, most of what I am writing here should be treated as coming from "standard real life".

Love=Law
Lutz


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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22/12/2006 1:59 pm  

93 again!

Re-reading my last post I have got no idea of what I am talking...

It seems I am still pretty much ego-ridden as I focus so much on this drop-your-christian-partner-when-all you-wanna-do-is-sex-magick-nonsense. As a good Thelemite this stuff should not hurt me. And Alex, it's only the "The very last thing to do is to join a magickal order whilst married to a christian and expect to have sex magick with your unsuspecting spouse. Stop worrying about it" part of your post that I wanted to correct. Thanks for the rest!

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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23/12/2006 5:56 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

OK, I seem to have confused the issue rather than help it. I will try to make amends.

Sex Magick may actually be two different things on refelction, lets call it high sex magick and results sex magcik. High Sex Magick is by another name the ultimate objective of Tantrika (or as we call it Tantra in the West). It is the union by many means including the actuall act of sex, to the opposing sexual polarity of oneself and the assumption of the role of the same polarity of oneself to the godhead. In Tantrika, I, as a straight male, take my willing female partner, and particularly her genitals and her third eye, to be the physical vehical for Shalti, the universal goddess and worship her in that form. I would then invoke Shiva myslef, whilst my partner was doing the very reverse towards me. The union of these two is called Sadashiva.
In Thelema this is exactly the same thing as Nuith and Hadith as one and though in the Tantric system it is best to use sanskrit names, thanks to Sri Gurudeva Dadaji Mahendranath 999, The Book Of The Law is now an official Tantra (Tantrika text or holy book) within the Adinath and Uttarakaulanath sects of Tantrika in India and the world. Liber AL quite clearly states that the objective of the male (beast) counterpart is to become Hadith and achieve Nuith, whilst the female (scarlet women) is to not follow the male but become Nuith and achieve Hadith.
Sadashiva - NuHad is the source of all magick, wisdom, inteligence, life, death and in fact the very universe itself. This is the 'stone of the wise' of Alchemy and the ultimate objective of all left hand path magick. It is even the ultimate secret of right hand path magick, better known as religion, too.

We all do things without other people, even those close to us, knowing what is going on within us. I am only communicating to you using this arcane system called words, does that mean anything to what is really going on in my unverse or yours? No, it is just an art form, an approximation to the truth. Doing 'sex magick' with someone without their complicity in the process is like all results magick, to do with only minor things below the abyss. In that way you could say be thinking of getting that job, whilst you come with your non-magickal lover and it may well get you that job. You may find it easier to masturbate whilst thinking of the godhead in a personal working though and just enjoy the sex with your lover.

To finnish off, the left hand path of Thelema is, no thanks to Crowley really, alive and well now. We are not simple 'black magickians' and do cross the abyss eventually too, by another means. We are alchemists and technical magickians, not religious types, no Bhakti Yoga here. We do not follow the Heirophant but are each the Charioteer in our individual ways. There is no heirarchy amongst us, each serving only our inner individual truth. We are therefore disruptive to the right hand path and it's magickal orders, priesthoods and such. Above the abyss right and left hand paths are one, below they are opposites, even seeming enemies, though that is an illusion. All religions or mystical teachings that are currently valid at any time, have both paths. When one side dies, the whole religion or teaching dies with it. Hence the need for renewal and prophets. Thelema's right hand path should concentrate it's fight on that of the left hand paths of other creeds. We in Thelema's left hand path will allow right hand path Thelemites to pass and exclude those of other religions, particularly the slave cults like Christianity and Islam. That way Thelema will grow to fulfilment and we will live as brothers. As brothers fight ye!

Svecchacara (sanskrit for act in accordance with one's will)

Siddhanath

Love is the law, love under will.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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23/12/2006 6:31 pm  

Alex,

Thanks for that...

By the way, do feel free to include a link to LAShTAL.COM on your extensive list of links!

Paul

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/12/2006 6:49 pm  

Whoops, my spelling is crap! For Shalti please read SHAKTI.
Shakti is the sum or synthesis of all of the Tantrika 10 Wisdom Goddesses; of which Kali is the most left hand extreem and Tripura Sundari the right, Tara is the middle path goddess. The other seven are for those interested; Bhunaneshvari, Bhairavi, Chhinnamasta, Dhumavati, Bagalamukhi, Matangi and Kamalatmika. Despite my using this system I renounce Hinduism in all it's forms. I don't like it as anything but yet another tool. I really dislike Ghandism which is Victorian right hand path fascism much like Blavatski's interpretation of left and right hand path terminology that Crowley unfortunately adopted from Theosophy.
I assume you've heard of Shiva but even that is Shiva alone and not with Brahma and especially Vishnu attached. I think it is best to just go with the new (I am a devout neoist) and use Nuith and Hadith personally, to avoid confusion but lets not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Alex


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/12/2006 10:02 pm  

Paul

Link now active, sorry for the oversite. Prety crap of me considering.

In fact if anyone out there is not linked to on http://www.dowhatthouwilt.com/links.asp please email me on links@dowhatthouwilt.com and I will add anything even slightly Thelemic or of interest to Thlemites. Once I get over 1000 links I will make it a searchable directory and XML feed it. http://www.dowhatthouwilt.com is currently top of Google for 'do what thou wilt', so it may help for you to do so.

Thanks,
Alex


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
23/12/2006 11:33 pm  

Geez Alan
Thanks for highlighting the Nath order!! I think of myself as a 'druid tantric' in the Nath sense. I put some high tantric material online regarding tantric self initiation http://deathrow.vistech.net/~tazman/rebirth/57.html
The tibetian esoterica seems quite clear that the process occurs within the adept and the alchemical fire refered to = bhakti. Any other parcipitants should be adepts as well. Had reaching the state of Nu and back again requires a good working knowledge of VIII,IX and XI. Generating powerful Sexual currents = generating powerful Magick currents. White/Right hand paths are distraction and bullshit. You need to learn the plumbing first. Boy meets girl is bullshit. Now boy submits to demonic sex witch 😈 ! That's a story worth telling. Philosphus = Bhakti = Power exchange = fire of passion. To quote Sri Ramakrishna'in the kaliyuga the fortress of enlightenment must be taken by storm!'


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/12/2006 1:25 am  

Tazadinath
Liked the link but I found it a bit right hand path, perhaps I am just a left hand path extreemist? To me the visualisation of the goddess method is essential but not 'preffered' if a living breathing one is staring lustfully into your eyes. I feel that Tibetan Tantra lost itself when one of the Dalia Lamas persecuted the Bon Po religion back in the 1800s. They had the head Bon Po lamas (or black hats) walled up in a cave. The Bon Po which kept the left hand path Tibetan Tantra system intact, fell into decline and now it is only known mostly as symbolism, not real practice. This was evil Buddhism doing its final bid to take over Tibet and destroyed the power that was unique to Tibet in the process. This has now lead to today the Dalai Lama in exile; proof, if you destroy a traditions left hand path, the whole power base of that tradition eventually disapears.
Dadaji clearly stated that Hindu Tantra too was dying, as the naked jains and other sadhhus were rounded up by Gandhi and his Victorian Values mates. It could be argued that only Thelemic Tantra has a future, with a strong a vibrant left hand path intact. Anyway, I'm a Thelemite, I'm left hand path; my enemies are therefore all religions or right hand paths but Thelema. Not that I am a religious Thelemite but Thelema is the only tradition that will just about tolerate me in the long run. That and the Beast's writings are beautiful.

Siddhanath


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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09/01/2007 9:47 pm  
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
......Some initiates just aren't going to be ready this life, for full sex magick. In that case masturbation techniques are the best approach. Sex with the goddess or god using visualisation........
Alex
Love is the law, love under will.

In its entirety, a comprehensive, educated and honest answer showing the depth of application necessary. Indeed "some initiates just aren't going to be ready this life." Yet does masturbation offer the best alternative relative to the original question? May it be considered that an initiate (having decided to deceive his or her lover by ommission) in using the other's body and spirit for purely self-gain, is indulging in a form of masturbation? If so then could it be that this form of release is more powerful? Indeed, may the very element of deception add to the burst of light?

Teaching and example show that couples and spiritual families working in spritual harmony may receive great gifts. It follows that emotional love and honesty between couples, of either sex, is to be preferred. But I would propose that where the element of deception is necessary then this would represent a prime example of:

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
04/12/2009 7:02 am  

As a woman, I can tell you I have used men and women many times for sex magick without their knowledge. I LIKE to tell them, but so many people can't handle it so why ruin a perfectly good thing with unnecessary words?

xoxo
Iza


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
04/12/2009 9:14 am  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
Of course I am talking about sufficiently enough wild sex to raise sufficient Kundalini energy

Arousing kundalini is a far more subtle and concentrated operation than having "wild sex" - which actually sounds counter-productive The body is a laboratory and a whole slew of lifestyle factors play a role in determining the ease or difficulty of this operation.

I recommend quitting smoking, purifying the body with herbal teas, eating lots of pumpkin seeds, not ejaculating and enrolling in a kundalini yoga course.


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ALHA
 ALHA
(@alha)
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04/12/2009 1:00 pm  
"adonia444" wrote:
Any thoughts on why Crowley viewed the male and female dynamic this way with regards to magick?
Did he feel that her female energies brought to the conscious level would create problems with the direction of the work?
Is Crowley hinting at a fundamental conflict underlying the fundamental "fit" of the biological aspect of the work, which is best directed by something inherent in the male?

My guess is that Crowley was significantly influenced by the male dominant mentality of the country and the era he lived in. Although he was, on one hand, champion of gender equality, at the same time he expressed some openly male chauvinistic attitudes toward women... let us separate "esoteric" Crowley from "mundane" and "British" Crowley πŸ™‚
However, my view is that one of the main aspects of sex magic is conjunction and exchange of energies. Even if a female partner is not aware of what is going on inside her male partner's being (his "ontic sphere") her natural female energy is still there, and an exchange between the two is still happening, on physical and energy levels of their beings. But it will depend what kind of work the magician is doing.
Still, I think it is the best if both partners are fully aware and consensual about what they are doing. It will allow the exchange to go beyond physical and energetic to mental and spiritual.
Although the exchange between the two will create a Child (syzygy) anyway, if all four levels are included it will add to completeness of the operation itself.
Crowley openly wrote that it is not necessary for female partner to be aware of the magickal operation. But, knowing how difficult even today is to find a suitable sex magical partner, I can only imagine how hard it was at the time when Crowley was pioneering...
To conclude, I advocate sex magic where both partners are fully involved in the operation. Now, when it comes to issue of polarities, it seems a common ground among esotericists that male phallic principle is for some reason absolutely necessary in order to have successful magical operation. Bertiaux, for instance, considers lesbian sex magic completely futile, as it lacks the phallic principle. I did not meet enough lesbians to have an opinion on this, but I find it curious that different sources cite phallic male principle as crucial for the process... it might be probably in the nature of spermatozoa as Snake of Will that impregnates the Ovum and carries with it the blueprint of creation... that would be one interpretation.


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