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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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30/06/2010 10:35 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

This is something that seems to crop up a lot in Thelema, now I'm not blind to the symbolism of sex in ritual, or the significance of the Mass etc.

I was just wondering how important the whole sex thing is in the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
I'm not explaining this very well, I understand that the HGA thing could be seen as intensely sexual in nature, on a fairly rarefied plane.

I mean the actual sex magick rituals, the whole mouth of Isis, eye of Horus thing.
Is it all strictly necessary? I don't see why I cant do the Great work without it.
The thing is, for myself there is only one goal, The Great Work, at this point summarized as the Knowledge and Conversation of HGA. and I cant help but think that anything else is just magickal wanking.

any takers?

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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30/06/2010 11:33 am  

Greetings Solitarius,

Necessary? No. I have never seen sex magick referenced vis-a-vis the KC/HGA. Even Crowley's record, John St. John, doesn't mention it. But there's more to life than KC/HGA - for instance, various experiences that might help facilitate it, not to mention all them years that come After it! Also known as doing your Will. And in this regard, sex magick may be useful, like a lot of other things.

Whatever works,
~a.


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Shiva
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30/06/2010 1:47 pm  
"Solitarius" wrote:
I was just wondering how important the whole sex thing is in the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

Sex Magick is strictly an OTO thing, and of course a Yoga thing (amongst certain Tantra and Taoist sects), plus other "lineages" as well.
There are many Monks, Lamas, etc, who are celibate, yet seem to become "enlightened" without any sexual reference.

Alice Bailey, the mouthpiece for the "Tibetan Master," states that the true sexual union is the polarization between the Personality and the Solar Angel, and that sex magic is not only not necessary but is discouraged.


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mika
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30/06/2010 5:58 pm  
"Solitarius" wrote:
I was just wondering how important the whole sex thing is in the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

There's two main purposes of sex magick - internal alchemy, and challenging boundaries. The internal alchemy angle relates to practices like tantra and taoist yoga, where the physical sexual experience (whether alone or with another person) is used to inspire greater understanding of the body/mind, and through that, of the universe. Like most anything, you can arrive at that same (or similar enough) destination through other paths, so its importance to your work depends on if you have a natural inclination toward that type of experience.

The boundary challenging angle is a bit different, and imo is the primary focus of Crowley's sex magick. A central aspect of the KCHGA experience is observing and accepting your nature, your unfiltered tendencies, as it/they actually are rather than how you wish them to be (or how you fear they shouldn't be). So with something like sex and sexual morals, where there is much shame and guilt and self- judgment, it can be very difficult to distinguish between reality (your actual nature), and actions that have been influenced by your hopes, fears and beliefs.

Crowley addressed this by doing things that were considered "wrong", immoral, illegal, sacreligious, etc, such as anal sex with a man or jerking off onto an altar or having orgies. (I'm sure there were several reasons for these rituals, but I'm focusing on this one angle). It's a very direct way to challenge your beliefs about yourself - both your nature and your subjective, arbitrary opinions about "appropriate action". (Morality and subjective designations like "right" and "wrong" completely interfere with the KCHGA experience.)

Now, Crowley lived in an entirely different culture/time/place and had his own nature to explore, so his rituals won't necessarily have the same effects on anyone else. You really have to depend on your own brutal honesty. If you truly have no sexual attraction to men, sex with a man isn't going to do much for you. If you do have the attraction but are in denial, it can be a completely liberating experience. Some people say 'you don't know unless you try it', personally I don't agree with that. Forcing yourself to do it just because Crowley did, or because you think you "have to", is just as bad as avoiding it because "it's wrong". Along the same lines, if you have no shame masturbating, or participating in an orgy is nothing more than a wild night of fun and debauchery, then those experiences aren't likely to inspire a profound revelation about your nature. Another example - I wasn't raised Christian, so the Gnostic Mass doesn't affect me in the same way it impacts people who were imprinted with the original, non-sexual version of the mass.

So, what I'm getting at is that since the KCHGA experience requires accepting your nature as it really is, some boundary challenging will be necessary, to really discover that nature and ensure that you are not avoiding certain aspects due to social/religious/whatever programming and expectations. However, those boundaries are going to be different for everyone, and may or may not include sex. I would just focus on what aspects of your life you feel guilt or shame or tell yourself "I should/shouldn't do this, I should/shouldn't be like that". That's where you'll most likely avoid the "magical wanking" and get to the meaty work.


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phthah
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30/06/2010 6:42 pm  

93 Solitarius,

"Solitarius" wrote:
I mean the actual sex magick rituals. Is it all strictly necessary? I don't see why I cant do the Great work without it.

Of course you don't have to perform sex magick rituals as part of the GW. The answer in this regard lies in the first sentence you wrote. Take a look! However, don't write the idea off completely! You never know where the Path may lead you. You may find one day that you need to perform just such an act as part of your integration. Confer LXV i 45-46.

93 93/93
phthah


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Ch13
 Ch13
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30/06/2010 6:52 pm  
"mika" wrote:
"Solitarius" wrote:
I was just wondering how important the whole sex thing is in the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

There's two main purposes of sex magick - internal alchemy, and challenging boundaries. The internal alchemy angle relates to practices like tantra and taoist yoga, where the physical sexual experience (whether alone or with another person) is used to inspire greater understanding of the body/mind, and through that, of the universe. Like most anything, you can arrive at that same (or similar enough) destination through other paths, so its importance to your work depends on if you have a natural inclination toward that type of experience.

The boundary challenging angle is a bit different, and imo is the primary focus of Crowley's sex magick. A central aspect of the KCHGA experience is observing and accepting your nature, your unfiltered tendencies, as it/they actually are rather than how you wish them to be (or how you fear they shouldn't be). So with something like sex and sexual morals, where there is much shame and guilt and self- judgment, it can be very difficult to distinguish between reality (your actual nature), and actions that have been influenced by your hopes, fears and beliefs.

Crowley addressed this by doing things that were considered "wrong", immoral, illegal, sacreligious, etc, such as anal sex with a man or jerking off onto an altar or having orgies. (I'm sure there were several reasons for these rituals, but I'm focusing on this one angle). It's a very direct way to challenge your beliefs about yourself - both your nature and your subjective, arbitrary opinions about "appropriate action". (Morality and subjective designations like "right" and "wrong" completely interfere with the KCHGA experience.)

Now, Crowley lived in an entirely different culture/time/place and had his own nature to explore, so his rituals won't necessarily have the same effects on anyone else. You really have to depend on your own brutal honesty. If you truly have no sexual attraction to men, sex with a man isn't going to do much for you. If you do have the attraction but are in denial, it can be a completely liberating experience. Some people say 'you don't know unless you try it', personally I don't agree with that. Forcing yourself to do it just because Crowley did, or because you think you "have to", is just as bad as avoiding it because "it's wrong". Along the same lines, if you have no shame masturbating, or participating in an orgy is nothing more than a wild night of fun and debauchery, then those experiences aren't likely to inspire a profound revelation about your nature. Another example - I wasn't raised Christian, so the Gnostic Mass doesn't affect me in the same way it impacts people who were imprinted with the original, non-sexual version of the mass.

So, what I'm getting at is that since the KCHGA experience requires accepting your nature as it really is, some boundary challenging will be necessary, to really discover that nature and ensure that you are not avoiding certain aspects due to social/religious/whatever programming and expectations. However, those boundaries are going to be different for everyone, and may or may not include sex. I would just focus on what aspects of your life you feel guilt or shame or tell yourself "I should/shouldn't do this, I should/shouldn't be like that". That's where you'll most likely avoid the "magical wanking" and get to the meaty work.

Preety clear. Thanks !!! .
Sometimes is quite dificult -at list for me- to distinguish between "The Will of Experience" and "the will of a wild night of fun". Because joy and pleasure are implied in both cases.


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lashtal
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30/06/2010 7:58 pm  
"Solitarius" wrote:
I mean the actual sex magick rituals… Is it all strictly necessary? I don't see why I cant do the Great work without it. I cant help but think that anything else is just magickal wanking.

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=51488#51488

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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01/07/2010 2:55 am  

Solitarius,

Forgot to mention: For a Thelemite, sex magick is only as necessary as sex. That is to say, if there's any kind of sex going on, there ought to be sex magick. Remember this?: "take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me." (I:51) Indeed, everything you do should be annointed, as it were, unto the Great Work - like performing Resh, or saying Will before a meal, dig? Same with sex. The benefits of Purposeful v. mundane are obvious.

You suggest it's cool to have a casual wank, but strictly speaking (and I mean IN THE STRICT SENSE), magically, Thelemically, it is not okay. It's counter-productive. Such is the path - it is best to bend Everything to the Great Work.

a.


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christibrany
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01/07/2010 4:20 am  

Yeah Azywth.
All I can say is, if you are going to do it, you might as well make it useful. I mean of course you don't have to , but its not like you get any less joy out of turning something into a piece of Work.


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mika
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01/07/2010 6:14 pm  
"Azwyth" wrote:
The benefits of Purposeful v. mundane are obvious.

Please explain how you distinguish between "Purposeful" and "mundane".


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 Anonymous
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02/07/2010 2:47 am  

Hello Mika,

I mean, sex magick v. sex.

a.


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mika
 mika
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06/07/2010 11:59 pm  

Azwyth,
Then, please explain how you distinguish between "sex magick" and "sex".

What I'm getting at is there is no actual difference. You may label one as "purposeful" and the other as "mundane", but that distinction is in your own head, it is no different from labelling one as "good" and the other "bad" or one as "morally acceptable" and the other as "profane". The practical reality is that sex is sex regardless of how you label it.

Sex magick is not just about physically unifying with another person as a reference to or celebration of the ultimate symbolic unification of the self with divinity. That's part of it, but that's just conceptual symbolism. Sex magick, need I remind you/others?, is a physical act with resulting physical effects. Your heart rate changes, you perspire, you release hormones, your various nerves become sensitized, your body sensations intensify in waves, your consciousness becomes entirely focused on these sensations, you peak, you experience mindlessness, your awareness returns, you are utterly relaxed, etc. These things happen ine various degrees whether you label the act "sex magick" or just "mundane sex", and whether you're with another person or physically alone. That's why the labels, and the other person, don't define what you're experiencing. It's up to you, your attitude and consciousness, to make the experience magical, to get something out of it. And if you remove the need to use all these labels and distinctions you'll quickly find that every sexual experience is an opportunity to actually (not merely symbolically) experience divine unification.


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Shiva
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07/07/2010 3:47 am  
"mika" wrote:
What I'm getting at is there is no actual difference. You may label one as "purposeful" and the other as "mundane", but that distinction is in your own head,

Oh, there are probably many of us who knows what he meant. It seems to me that there is a difference.

"Make no distinction between any one thing and any other thing, for thereby cometh hurt." - sure, but that's only possible in samadhi - or at the very least, dhyana.

I would hazard a guess that the difference under discussion is between:

(A) Sex performed for physical-emotional gratification, where one may even become gratified without any sense of union with the opposite, and

(B) Sex performed as part of a Magickal ritual or ceremony, where there is a predetermined purpose and sex is the dynamic engine that energizes the rite.

Sh.'.


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 Anonymous
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07/07/2010 7:06 am  

Hi again,

Mika, I agree with you - you express it very well! And you imply the difference when you say that every act of sex has the opportunity to be an experience of divine union - when it misses that opportunity, perhaps that's just sex.

As to what I meant, specifically, Shiva nailed it. (Thanks!) In general terms, one can live a mindless life or a mindful life; in other words, a sacred life or a profane life, a purposeful life or a mundane life.

Then again, AC says, "Every intentional act is a Magical Act." So perhaps there is no such thing as non-magical, voluntary sex.

agape se praxi,
a.


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Shiva
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07/07/2010 1:21 pm  
"Azwyth" wrote:
AC says, "Every intentional act is a Magical Act." So perhaps there is no such thing as non-magical, voluntary sex.

We have all probably heard about the concept of "confusing the planes," and maybe even experienced it ourselves.

Then there is the idea of "confusing the terminology." Many schools of thought use the word "Intent" when speaking of what Thelemites have come to know as "Will." Both Intent and Will are acts generated from a "deeper" or "higher" level of consciousness than desire. In fact, that level can be identified within the human energy field, but at a more primordial (or rarified) level than the seven layers of the "normal" aura. Action(s) initiated from this deeper level are essentially coming from Chokmah, and not from (say) Netzach or Yesod where things are just wishes or wants.

Even Nuit (in Liber AL), in plain and simple language, tells us that there is a difference in our approaches to sexual union:

"Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me. If this be not aright; if ye confound the space-marks, saying: They are one; or saying, They are many; if the ritual be not ever unto me: then expect the direful judgments of Ra Hoor Khuit!"

Thus, when you state, "So perhaps there is no such thing as non-magical, voluntary sex," remember that next time when you say, "They are one" or "They are many," or when the ritual is "not ever unto me."

Now I've gone and done it! I have discussed the content of The Book, and will forever be shunned as a Center of Pestilence.


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Alan_OBrien
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07/07/2010 2:59 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
I...will forever be shunned as a Center of Pestilence.

For misspelling Centre?


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Shiva
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08/07/2010 1:04 am  
"Alan_OBrien" wrote:
For misspelling Centre?

I live in The United States where we speak and spell the English language differently than folks in The United (now somewhat disunited from its prior glory) Kingdom.


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Shiva
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08/07/2010 2:39 am  
"wolf354" wrote:
But then where does SadoMasochism (in S&M many forms) fits? 😈

On page 333 of your basic Abnormal Psychology textbook, in the third section of the Deviant Behavior chapter. 😆


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Shiva
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08/07/2010 12:21 pm  
"wolf354" wrote:
It can also be seen as moving in the borderline of pleasure and pain; increasing insights; having different, gratifying and unimaginable experiences. How would you then label S&M?

Deviant Behavior.


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Q789
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09/07/2010 5:51 am  

I would like to share with you my thoughts on this issue.

I achieved illumination (what i think AC meant by KCHGA) in about 90ah. It was a 10 months trance and is the most beautiful experience that any person can have. During that trance, one morning i indulged in the male privilege, as we do, and during orgasm i had a very strange vision, a vision that came from way 'out there', a different place than normal astral visions, it was so 'out of this world' that i didn't at first understand it. It was of a mouth, a large mouth spewing forth the souls of the universe, a mouth giving birth to souls. I took me years to understand this vision. Now i place it on the backside of Kether and of course this image i found later in the tarot of the quiphoth. This experience leads me to believe that orgasm can open the veils to the other worlds and is a powerful instrument to do so.
There is, however, more to be said regards sex magick and the above mentioned deviant behavior.
I personally am blessed with a fetish. I consider it part of my sexuality and yet it is not (strickly speaking) a sexual practice. Yet, just like sex, i need this practice. Fortunately, for me, this practice is not illegal or against the law of Thelema. None the less, when i practice this i notice a huge flow of quiphotic energy, much to my spiritual and sexual relief. Are you mixing so called 'deviant behavior' with the darker side of your sexuality? Maybe it just seems deviant? Or maybe a sexually mature magickian can explore his darker sexuality without shame and that of course is part of his/her true will.
Perhaps sex magick works in both ways in terms of the orgasm and the entire sexual health of the magickian.

Q789


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Walterfive
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09/07/2010 2:44 pm  
"Q789" wrote:
I would like to share with you my thoughts on this issue.

...during orgasm i had a very strange vision, a vision that came from way 'out there', a different place than normal astral visions, it was so 'out of this world' that i didn't at first understand it.

That would be the Pneuma, or breath of creation, as described by the Gnostics 2200 years ago... 😎 They showed you *that*?

--Wolf354, I couldn't agree with you more: To *some* people the S and M in S&M already *stands* for Sex Magick. And there's nothing "deviant" about it. Not my cup of tea any more, but I don't heal as quickly as I used to, either.


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 Anonymous
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09/07/2010 6:04 pm  

Every tradition instructs us about the proper use of the life force, masturbation always being seen as its most pointless use and therefore a waste. These prohibitions against the waste of the life force were always intended only to be for those who were attempting to achieve enlightenment, as the common man and woman has no idea how to direct this force and therefore needs to express it so that they do not suffer psychic and physical degeneration.

Tantra tells us that this force only moves in two directions, downwards and as orgasm, or upwards and as union with the divine. This is why we see so much sexual corruption in the modern church, because they are filled with men who are given no real mystical means or teachings to direct that force upwards, but are also expected not to express it downwards, thus psychic degeneration.

Even Alchemy is not silent on this matter, as we are told to drown the serpent/dragon in its own poison.

Thelema is no more silent, we are told that sexual acts can be done wherever, with whomever. In other words it does not require that the partner be a Thelemite, or a Tantric, or even a magician, only that they be willing, yet we are specifically told "But always unto me" Nuit.

Nuit represents Binah, the Great Mother, and therefore is also seen as the "Higher Shekainah". Thus all acts of sex should be done in a specifically Tantric way, IE: it should be seen as a meditation and gradual merging with The One, and at whatever point in time, the lover is to be figured to oneself as The One. Thus the Goal is not even Orgasm, but the state of Samadhi and Union which the sexual act can produce, Orgasm is a culmination of, but also the end of, that Union. This is why Tantrics learn to prolong their intercourse to the point that they can completely suppress Orgasm. In some teachings the individuals are taught never to orgasm.

This is where the "free love" attitude of many OTO members has gone awry. It is not that sex is evil in itself, nor even masturbation, orgasm, or any of that. Merely it is that in every tradition in the world the goal is enlightenment and this is achieved through the raising of the life force through all the chakras and into the head, where the Philosophers stone is confected and perfected. Thelema is no different, where Hadit is the Life Force/Kundulini and is explicit about his relationship to the life force in alchemic and eastern ways.

Now it should be said that sex, masturbation, orgasm are not evil in themselves. As I already mentioned suppression of the life force is always negative and leads to various forms of psychosis. The goal is first of all to remove oneself from the attachment of either orgasm or samadhi, which Crowley tells us as his "being free from the lust of result". Since the lust of result is always attachment, and vice versa, be it for an ideal or an outcome of an event.

Furthermore in our society it may be that an individual needs Thelema to free themselves sexually, and if that is the only purpose Thelema serves for them, I think thats purpose enough because our sexually oppressed society has created an extremely unbalanced situation.

There is far more to say on this subject, the point is that waste = bad and discipline = good for a magician, by whichever means you choose to express that.


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Anonymous
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09/07/2010 7:04 pm  

93
I'll admit that my own natural tendancy is towards reppression, so for me doing the oto thing and really getting to grips with sex as an impersonal force rather than a sin is pretty important, also in liber LXV I:46 it says "Subdue thy fear and thy disgust. Then-yield!" which to me illustrates the point admirably.

93 93/93


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Shiva
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09/07/2010 8:14 pm  

Yes, Shiva was being "tricky."

So let's get untricky and see what's what here:

"Deviant" means, "Differing from a norm or from the standards of a society."

That is, society establishes a "norm" for its members; thus we are discussing the 4th neurocircuit wherein socio-sexual behavior is defined by a culture. These "definitions" vary from place to place and from time to time, so there's nothing fixed here. For example, in Ancient Aegypt, a high-born man was expected to marry his sister (to keep the bloodline "undiluted"). Today, in most places, marrying one's sister is illegal and unacceptable (because it can produce idiots due to shared recessive genes coming to the foreground).

As a matter of fact, the Aegyptian tradition continued through the middle ages in Europe, and, guess what? - There were a few "idiot kings" known to historians (maybe more than a "few"). I believe it still exists today. Didn't some British heir-apparent recently marry a commoner and lose his right to sit on the throne? Now, these days, the heir-apparents don't actually marry their sisters, that would deviate from the accepted norm, and thus be "deviant." But they do marry spouses selected from the "proper bloodlines." And these bloodlines often share common ancestors. They're still trying to keep the "blood undiluted."

Today, a "normal" heterosexual relationship is called "straight" (as opposed to "gay" or other distinctions).

One who varies from the "straight path" is said to deviate.

It's my opinion that "deviant" means "different" (from "normal" standards set by society). It does not mean "disgusting" or "demonic" or "disturbed," etc.

By the way, I'm certain that my personality qualifies me as a "deviant." My psychology professor once said to me, in front of the whole class, "Well, we all know that you're different."

Gee-whiz, I thought we were all different!


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Q789
 Q789
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23/07/2010 2:13 am  

Dear Walter,
Ah yes it appears they did show me *that* - would there be any significance in that?

PS. I did find the image on the shadow tarot by Linda Folario, but can't seem to find what particular card it is.


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Walterfive
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28/07/2010 9:09 pm  

Well, I wouldn't have identified it as a Cthonic or "Shadow" image, but as it's above the Abyss, it really doesn't matter if Ms. Folario puts it on that side of things or not. Congratulations. That's a genuine vision, as far as I'm concerned. Like I say the Greek Gnostics had that mapped 22 centuries ago.


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Walterfive
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28/07/2010 9:14 pm  

Well, I wouldn't have identified it as a Cthonic or "Shadow" image, but as it's above the Abyss, it really doesn't matter if Ms. Folario puts it on that side of things or not. Congratulations. That's a genuine vision, as far as I'm concerned. Like I say the Greek Gnostics had that mapped 22 centuries ago.
"Significance?" Well, other than validation, you mean? I believe we are shown these things sometimes so that we can later find out that there's much more to them, and that we have been harkened by an omnicience we may (or may not) percieve as greater (or at least more knowing) than ourselves.


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 Anonymous
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30/07/2010 4:29 am  

93 I think a few people on here have already touched on this, but I will put my two cents in anyway. The long process of communion with your HGA is, to me at least, the complete integration of the myriad of aspects of self. Integration of the subconsciousness includes the collective unconsciousness (if your into that sort of thing, i guess), which integrates the subjective with the objective. This uniting of the objective and subjective I would describe as samadhi or an ecstatic howlback effect. That is pretty much sex if you ask me. If you look at the Abra-Melin system, it instructs you to be careful when and how you engage in sex. There is a diminishing of sexual activity as you progress. I see this as a build up of sexual energy that is meant to be spent on/with/for your HGA. It doesn't say anything about it though, so this is my amateur opinion here. When I read between the lines it seems that part of the process of communing with your HGA is shattering your ego. Collectively our biggest hangup, as humans, is sexuality. So what better way to shatter your false self then by psycho-somatically teaching your body that you can enjoy sex and love with any consensual partner, and to truly feel that we are all really cut from the same fabric? On top of all this all magick is sexual. If you ever want to get anything done in a pleasantly conscious way it really helps to feel the sex in it. If you want to be able to influence people via Giordano Bruno's Chain of Chains then you have to be able to generate sexual magnetism (check out Couliano's "Eros and Magic in the Renaissance"). Plus sex makes you healthy (in proper dosage) and it feels great. I wish that you will go out and have some great sex ..."But always unto me" 93


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 Anonymous
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31/07/2010 7:31 am  
"Solitarius" wrote:
93
I'll admit that my own natural tendancy is towards reppression, so for me doing the oto thing and really getting to grips with sex as an impersonal force rather than a sin is pretty important, also in liber LXV I:46 it says "Subdue thy fear and thy disgust. Then-yield!" which to me illustrates the point admirably.

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I must speak up here against this notion that the OTO is merely a social club and is all about wild orgies and parties. Crowley says very plainly that OTO system can make you a good 5=6, which means it can help prepare you for Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. It will bring you to the very door of the Bridal Chamber. The mass is about sacred sex, on one level, but it has deep significance on at least seven levels that I am familiar with. The mass is not a Black Mass, and it is not intended to shock Christians by breaking taboo's. Those masses where performed by actual Christians. The mass is a holy sacrament of High Magic that instructs the very soul in the processes of Spiritual Alchemy. It is about the Great Work of traversing the Royal Road, of Transmuting the mundane, Dark Star into a Golden Light-Bearer that lights the way for others shining in the body of our lady, Nuit. Also, the Eucharist is truly spiritual food, The Elixer itself for the faithful just as the Roman Rite transubstantiates the bread and wine into the Body of God.

The OTO is not designed to take you across the Abyss, but that doesn't mean that you can't "endure until the end." One who has his HGA isn't in any more need of instruction, He has found his Hidden Master. Admittance in the organization called A A does not improve your chances of Admittance into the actual Communion of Saints, which has a great cloud upon its sanctuary.


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