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Anonymous
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02/03/2015 8:28 pm  

If we were to consider the attributions of the path of Samekh below;

Tipareth (6) – the actual individual (True Self)

~The Veil of Paroketh~

Netzach (7) – conscious emotion and desire (a distorted reflection of 5)

Hod (8 – conscious thoughts and thought-patterns (a distorted reflection of 4)

Yesod (9) – one’s internal map of the universe (including self-image, a distorted reflection of 6)

It is the link between True Self and one's internal map of the universe.  To uncover the True Self we must get inside that internal map and practice vigilance of the activities in that map and it's distortions via meditation and/or Jugorum.  Crowley's metaphor is the "birth strangled babes" which is the result of hunting out each stray thought or reverie.  The corresponding god is Artemis the hunter and the patron of childbirth and labour.  That's interesting that the True Self is nurtured and prized out via a process akin to childbirth.

The zodiacal attribution is Sagitarrius which is fiery.  Again we have the arrow firing hunter's vigilance (remember George Gurdjieff was asked who was the person he met who had the most "essence" and his answer was a desert brigand who sat with his rifle all day waiting for unsuspecting travellers) but the fiery aspect could be attributed to the role of exaltation/ invocation and it's own particular way of loosening the veils of Self. _ 


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jamie barter
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02/03/2015 8:29 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
Just for the sake of openness and transparency, and just my personal opinion...

Erwin? Quite impressive and thought-provoking. Whatever happened to him?
Los? Finding his feet and just needs to avoid chucking straw men into every argument.
David? Not there yet... Being antagonistic is not the same as being challenging.

This reminds me a bit of (the answers to) those old Eleven-Plus verbal reasoning type tests, where e.g.

"BOAT is to LINER     as       CANOE is to BOAT"

as in,

“LOS it to ERWIN as DAVID is to LOS”

Can we maybe look forward to any more of these entertaining and enlightening progress-in-action type assessments from our head invigilator, as it were? 🙂

By the way, david, are you going to “delve further" and reply to any points outstanding e.g. from newneubergOuch2, myself (re the Khu &c) and others, or do you find you are still worriying yourself about being “psychically vampirised"?

N Joy


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Anonymous
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02/03/2015 8:32 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:

By the way, david, are you going to “delve further" and reply to any points outstanding e.g. from newneubergOuch2, myself (re the Khu &c) and others, or do you find you are still worriying yourself about being “psychically vampirised"?

N Joy

You were given a very fine link (by Los) regarding analysis of definition of  Khu written by Erwin.   


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jamie barter
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02/03/2015 8:35 pm  
"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
By the way, david, are you going to “delve further" and reply to any points outstanding e.g. from newneubergOuch2, myself (re the Khu &c) and others, or do you find you are still worriying yourself about being “psychically vampirised"?

N Joy

You were given a very fine link (by Los) regarding analysis of definition of  Khu written by Erwin.   

But as you should kno, I'm interested in reading your thoughts, not Los' or Erwins's!

N Joy


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Shiva
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02/03/2015 8:43 pm  

Gee wiz[ard] and wholly cow, thanks for the free lesson in how to contact the "true self" via some data apparently supplied by Erwin. Some of us don't want to play that game on a thread, started by you no less, that deals with ORDEALS. You've posted three messages in a row, in effect bumping your thread, in an off-topic derailment. Gee wiz[ard] and wholly cow and let's all run for the hills, 'cause there ain't no order in what's comin' down 😉


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 Anonymous
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02/03/2015 9:06 pm  

One of the ordeals is not to stray from the path.
Another is actually walking it (self-reflection).

Walking it, maps like the tree of life or the Azoetic star map, shapes us, our brains in ways which opens up to new horizons. At least
I believe so. It's not a coincedence that people messing around with The tree of life have these kind of dreams.

News flash!!! Neuro science shows us that the mirroring of our dual aspects are as important as transcending them.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/lucid-dreaming-associated-more-pronounced-self-reflection-everyday-life-319326


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Michael Staley
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02/03/2015 9:23 pm  
"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:

By the way, david, are you going to “delve further" and reply to any points outstanding e.g. from newneubergOuch2, myself (re the Khu &c) and others, or do you find you are still worriying yourself about being “psychically vampirised"?

N Joy

You were given a very fine link (by Los) regarding analysis of definition of  Khu written by Erwin.   

Perhaps he's read enough stuff by Hessle to know that it's not for him; I know I have.


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Shiva
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02/03/2015 11:37 pm  

This thread is about Ordeals. Magickal ordeals vs mundane ordeals, and is there a difference between them. It has gone off-topic into the Tree, Erwin's epistle on the Tree, Los' scepticism, and similar off-topic subjects. Can we return to Ordeals, or someone should start a new thread, or must we continue to be subjected to the ordeal of off-topic rambling?


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Anonymous
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03/03/2015 12:01 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
Gee wiz[ard] and wholly cow, thanks for the free lesson in how to contact the "true self" via some data apparently supplied by Erwin. Some of us don't want to play that game on a thread, started by you no less, that deals with ORDEALS. You've posted three messages in a row, in effect bumping your thread, in an off-topic derailment. Gee wiz[ard] and wholly cow and let's all run for the hills, 'cause there ain't no order in what's comin' down 😉

Off topic?  The TOL and the grades are usually associated with the "ordeals" of "spiritual advancement" so no,  it wasn't off topic to bring that subject into the thread which is about comparing mundane ordeals to spiritual anguish.  I was proposing that Erwin's model deals with the TOL in a wholly practical and non mysterious manner and imo this is the best way to deal with understanding ordeals for someone interested in Thelema and the cabbalah.

I mentioned in the OP that occultism, imo is really about crisis management per se.  Soon after Los outlined the way we perceive that there are problems (Seeing something as a "problem" is merely a function of how the individual perceives it.)

I mean surely you, for example fisrt became interested in occultism because you wanted a better way of dealing with "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"?  In other words you were seeking a way to solve your frustrations and general lack of fulfilment.  In other words you really wanted a better way for yourself to solve problems.  Can spirituality help us to solve problems?  For example do you think that FDR during the Great Depression was drawing on spiritual principles to help himself formulate a way out of the crisis for America? 


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Shiva
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03/03/2015 12:29 am  
"david" wrote:
I was proposing that Erwin's model deals with the TOL in a wholly practical and non mysterious manner and imo this is the best way to deal with understanding ordeals for someone interested in Thelema and the cabbalah.

Maybe your "best way." Obviously, your ways are not "best" for others.

I mean surely you, for example fisrt became interested in occultism because you wanted a better way of dealing with "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"?

In one of my books I described why I became interested (and thus it is a matter of record). It was NOT for any reason you have suggested. You should face the fact that other people are NOT you.


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Anonymous
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03/03/2015 8:38 am  

Could you tell me what those reasons were?


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jamie barter
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03/03/2015 1:00 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
"david" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
By the way, david, are you going to “delve further" and reply to any points outstanding e.g. from newneubergOuch2, myself (re the Khu &c) and others, or do you find you are still worriying yourself about being “psychically vampirised"?
N Joy

You were given a very fine link (by Los) regarding analysis of definition of  Khu written by Erwin.

Perhaps he's read enough stuff by Hessle to know that it's not for him; I know I have.

It’s not so much Erwin’s stuff is not for me, as credit where it’s due department, it is for the most part well-written, cogent, and as Paul says, occasionally “impressive and thought provoking” apart from his over-the-top abuse and dismissal of “super-naturalism”. 

But it’s all very well posters quoting others – no less than A.C. of course – but here I wanted to see what thoughts david himself might have upon the idea of the Khu, seeing as how he brought the term up himself and stated that he found it to be equivalent to “the mind”, which I argued was erroneous and not the case.

This figure of Erwin, who hasn’t actually posted himself for years now, seems to have reached semi-mythical proportions, the “is he or isn’t he?” now almost rivalling that of Cole-ism.

"david" wrote:
I was proposing that Erwin's model deals with the TOL in a wholly practical and non mysterious manner and imo this is the best way to deal with understanding ordeals for someone interested in Thelema and the cabbalah.

Like Lutz who asked further clarification in Reply #36 and Michael in Reply #37, I had no idea that either Erwin or Los had constructed a “TOL model” either.  Here is actually somewhere where you could profitably give a reference.

Other parts from this thread which you have done a Los-like act of ignoring – like him, after originating the thread, asking for feedback and then selectively failing to address parts you don't like or think fit in – have been:

newneubergOuch2’s Reply #25, which echoed my own outstanding query from Reply #7 repeated in Reply #14, when I pointed out that some practical examples from your own first-hand experience might help in explaining that actual initiation means more than just mere knowledge.  This does not mean we are intending to play “OK show us what yer got” as you fear, which I’m sure everyone would agree would be rather juvenile.

I would also be interested to read your answer to Michael’s query from Reply #32:

Reply #32 by Michael Staley on: March 01, 2015, 02:06:25 pm:

Quote from: david on March 01, 2015, 01:55:08 pm
"If you can demonstrate how a TOL full of spirit guides and entities that whisper advice to you can bring you closer to reality then I'd love to hear it."

Remind me please where I've proposed such a thing. If (as I suspect) you are mistaken and I haven't proposed such a thing, then why are you asking me to demonstrate it?

(I’d also asked you previously why you seem to like to spell “guess” with an extra –e on the end, being a rather "Genesis"-type affectation.  But although still also outstanding this is just out of curiosity and hardly of world shattering importance for you to answer.)

"david" wrote:
[...] Soon after Los outlined the way we perceive that there are problems (Seeing something as a "problem" is merely a function of how the individual perceives it.)

Don’t you think this statement might belong to the school of the blindingly bleedingly obvious?  (And I still think Johnny Rotten summed it up more concisely than Los did there, anyhow…)

"david" wrote:
[...] In other words you really wanted a better way for yourself to solve problems.  Can spirituality help us to solve problems?  For example do you think that FDR during the Great Depression was drawing on spiritual principles to help himself formulate a way out of the crisis for America?

Probably horrendously off-topic I know, but are you referring to the fact that FDR gave rise to an Executive Order in 1933 thus creating an unprecedented “state of emergency” in the U.S.A. which has serious implications for your vaunted "democracy" & has never been rescinded afterwards?

Incidentally, david - this rather metaphysical “energy vampirism” to which you refer and seem to be so afraid of suffering from its after-effects, don‘t you consider it all to be a bit in the way of what your mentor Los might describe as oojity-boojity hocus-pocus?

N Joy


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Shiva
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03/03/2015 6:24 pm  
"david" wrote:
Could you tell me what those reasons were?

"And here we have my original conscious motivation toward the psychedelic path that jumps across the spiral rings of evolution: I wanted to see the lights!" 😉


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Anonymous
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03/03/2015 11:19 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Could you tell me what those reasons were?

"And here we have my original conscious motivation toward the psychedelic path that jumps across the spiral rings of evolution: I wanted to see the lights!" 😉

Could you elaborate on that?  Do you have some sort of link for your essay?


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Tao
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04/03/2015 2:13 am  
"david" wrote:
I don't think there's a difference between what is perceived to be some sort of "spiritual" and/or "magical" ordeal and any other mundane ordeal.

I would agree with this.

However, I would add that framing the issue that way misses the underlying point. Classifying things as either "mundane" or "spiritual" blocks one from perceiving that they are one and the same. This perception is one of the actual goals of any occult study and practice. Someone outside the occult path has their purse stolen and sees it as a random difficulty that has interrupted the positive flow of their life and with which they now have to deal. Someone advanced on the occult path (or any spiritual path, really) sees it as one aspect of the all-encompassing Tao through which all things flow; an event like any other, neither good nor bad but in how it relates to its observer.

Los's explanation is actually rather good until the weasel word "some" enters his argument and "scare quotes" "abound" describing those "poor spiritualist souls" who delve too deeply into their "fantasies". He then extrapolates the weakness of this position to all occult practice and goes off the rails entirely. The Path that I walk cleaves very closely to his, with the slight exception that we don't limit ourselves to what statistics tell us is "most likely" to be true. Rather, we (I) acknowledge that all is ultimately one, or zero, or Tao and that making any distinction between "mundane" and "spiritual" is simply one of language, not one of actuality. We have been programmed with that language, to be sure, but it is part of the software, always amenable to upgrades and patches. After all, "Kether is in Malkuth, after another manner."

"david" wrote:
@Los yes. A lot of "magicians" think that metaphysically instigate strange events that test their "powers". I've seen people on other forums discuss such things as if they are a real universal when in fact it's no more than finding patters they want to find.  A typical example of this is the so called ordeal of the siren.  Another fantasy is thinking that as we rise from grade to grade on the TOL we are impacted upon by various Paths and Sephira.  I've seen otherwise clever people discuss this nonsense without questioning it.  What is it? It look likes a mechanism by which a fantasist makes himself feel special.

In this, unfortunately, you latch onto Los's projection in order to create a host of straw magicians, the battling of which alleviates any need to confront the real issue. When your car breaks down, that event is as interconnected to all of reality as any other event you may experience. Indra's net is infinitely reflective. It is in how you perceive and react to this ordeal that determines whether it helps you to advance along the Path or not. If what you're seeing in this is a fantasist making himself feel special, then I would suggest that the mirror of nature is trying to reveal something to you.

Lastly, as much as you want to see it as a provocation or an attack, JB's question about your particular perception of Khu seems to be highly relevant to this particular point. Any Egyptologist will tell you that Crowley's usage isn't supported. JB's Crowley quotes show a marked difference from your (and I have to assume Hessle/Los's) Khu=mind generalisation. As it stands, the term has become that thing which you have decried so often: an occult buzzword that can mean whatever the particular user wants it to mean in any particular instance. If it is going to have any relevance to the discussion of ordeals, it's best that we know exactly which of its multiform meanings you want it to stand in for.

"david" wrote:
I mean surely you, for example fisrt became interested in occultism because you wanted a better way of dealing with "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune"?  In other words you were seeking a way to solve your frustrations and general lack of fulfilment.  In other words you really wanted a better way for yourself to solve problems.  Can spirituality help us to solve problems?  For example do you think that FDR during the Great Depression was drawing on spiritual principles to help himself formulate a way out of the crisis for America? 

Lastly... lastly... I'm going to have to jump into the Shiva boat on this one. These were definitely not the reasons I first became interested in occultism. Again, the mirror of nature seems to want to tell you something, david.


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jamie barter
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04/03/2015 11:02 am  
"david" wrote:
... remember George Gurdjieff was asked who was the person he met who had the most "essence" and his answer was a desert brigand who sat with his rifle all day waiting for unsuspecting travellers ...

I think I just got it!  Let me see if I have this right now…  This brigand with essence… he was waiting ... all day long in the desert … with his rifle … for travellers, unsuspecting travellers, to come along and … Ha ha ha ha ha, aha ha ha, uh-ha ha, ha (cough cough) ha, ahahahahahahahah (=hysterical out-of-control laughter)

(I was just choking, I mean joking there, david)
‘иjoY 


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Shiva
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04/03/2015 3:00 pm  
"david" wrote:
Could you elaborate on that?  Do you have some sort of link for your essay?

As previously stated, it's called a book (Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil), and no, I don't care to elaborate further in an off-topic adventure.


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jamie barter
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04/03/2015 5:56 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
no, I don't care to elaborate further in an off-topic adventure.

Shiva has a point there, david.  I can’t see that his reasons for originally following the yellow brick road, I mean the magic path to do with "occultism", are much to do with “The ordeals” (unless you were going to use it as a metaphor in its widest possible sense, where everything in life might be considered some sort of an ordeal.  But I think that would be ‘cheating’ :o)
And it wasn’t long ago when it was you who were chastising others for having gone off the beaten track, in your eyes!

I’ve more or less given up hope you are going to answer my queries – welcome to the wonderful world of Los, here!  He should be proud of your blinkeredness, which seems to be all part of every skeptic’s armoury from arguments of those I’ve come across. 

This is a well weird thread, incidentally, one of the most peculiar for some time.  Something here for all tastes, in fact! (snort.)  Where can it be off to (=what will you try to didactically inculcate us around to your way of thinking) next?

Reply #47 by Kharlatan on: March 02, 2015, 05:36:43 pm:

Discussions on forums like this have their limitation anyway - if not balanced by contemplation.

Sounds erudite & profound.  Nicely put there!

Reply #47 by Kharlatan on: March 02, 2015, 05:36:43 pm:
Too often, speaking from my own experiences, the threads and subjects are so many (and not to mention all the information, all the books on each subject) that they stay behind on one of the pages and escapes further scrutiny. Contemplation holds a strong position in some movements. Take for instance the gnostic's which advices students only to study the litterature written by the gnostic movement's masters to avoid getting lost among all the information. Because, let's face it, we have a  limited time in life to study? How do we want to study?

It would have been hard enough to read everything worthwhile in just Crowley’s time, and today with all the (distractions of the) resources of the internet and so on, it’s practically impossible.

As I contested before an element of selection has to be brought into play, and whether our selection turns out to be serendipitous will depend on whether we have a world-view in which we attach meaning to everything and everything is interconnected (the ‘intelligence/design’ argument) or whether there is ‘no’ meaning and everything is random chance.  There is no middle way, no halfway house here – either there is synchronicity and a degree of meaning (which holographically means all) or there is none, although I've found it is possible to switch one’s view-points between the one and the other and to alternate between these all or nothing states.

I didn’t know that about the gnostic movement masters, and am not sure to which part of Gnosticism you are referring but although naturally limiting it makes a certain amount of sense, anyway as/if some selection criteria apart from synchronicity has to be used. It’s certainly true that we can’t hope to digest anything near like everything. 

Reply #47 by Kharlatan on: March 02, 2015, 05:36:43 pm:

Generalization or spesialization? What depths do we want to stir?

If Blake said “to generalise is to be an idiot”, do you think it was because he inferred it’s futile and a hopeless waste of time for anyone to attempt to encompass the totality of something which is to all intents and purpose infinite (the information sea)?

Incidentally, is this picture of the handsome affable chap in your avatar picture one of yourself there with (let us assume) the white hair of age and venerable wisdom, cheerfully waving away (or maybe is it making some arcane or ‘occult’ gesture) looking for all the world as if you might have a cape on “underneath” and are maybe doing something of a turn as a stage conjuror or prestidigitater, coming over a bit like a less-threatening and more benign Bela Lugosi figure, perhaps?!  Or maybe to throw everyone off the scent it’s just some face which bears no resemblance to you at all which you’ve taken at random from the Gallery (and walked on down the hall… with apologies to Mr Mojo Risin there) ?

Pssstt, meet me at the back of the blue bus 😉
N Joy


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jamie barter
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04/03/2015 8:31 pm  
"david" wrote:
... remember George Gurdjieff was asked who was the person he met who had the most "essence" and his answer was a desert brigand who sat with his rifle all day waiting for unsuspecting travellers ...

Could you actually provide one of your invaluable references for this, please david?  It doesn’t sound like any Georgie Gurdjieff with which I’m familiar – in fact its sentiments would seem a little more in line with Maoist doctrine, wouldn’t you say?

“I want you to listen, son/ ‘cos Mao TseTung said Change must come/ thru the barrel of a gun" (“Mao TseTung Said” - Alabama 3 Exile on Coldharbour Lane)
(Just to make a little change from a direct quote there)
N Joy


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Anonymous
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04/03/2015 11:30 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
Could you elaborate on that?  Do you have some sort of link for your essay?

As previously stated, it's called a book (Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil), and no, I don't care to elaborate further in an off-topic adventure.

Oh right.  Well I have sparse material to go on then.  It would seem that you were a seeker of euphoria.  You wanted to specialize in "getting high" and "being free."  Would that be accurate?


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Anonymous
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05/03/2015 12:28 am  
"david" wrote:
If we were to consider the attributions of the path of Samekh below;

Tipareth (6) – the actual individual (True Self)

~The Veil of Paroketh~

Netzach (7) – conscious emotion and desire (a distorted reflection of 5)

Hod (8 – conscious thoughts and thought-patterns (a distorted reflection of 4)

Yesod (9) – one’s internal map of the universe (including self-image, a distorted reflection of 6)

It is the link between True Self and one's internal map of the universe.  To uncover the True Self we must get inside that internal map and practice vigilance of the activities in that map and it's distortions via meditation and/or Jugorum.  Crowley's metaphor is the "birth strangled babes" which is the result of hunting out each stray thought or reverie.  The corresponding god is Artemis the hunter and the patron of childbirth and labour.  That's interesting that the True Self is nurtured and prized out via a process akin to childbirth.

The zodiacal attribution is Sagitarrius which is fiery.  Again we have the arrow firing hunter's vigilance (remember George Gurdjieff was asked who was the person he met who had the most "essence" and his answer was a desert brigand who sat with his rifle all day waiting for unsuspecting travellers) but the fiery aspect could be attributed to the role of exaltation/ invocation and it's own particular way of loosening the veils of Self. _ 

In terms of bow and arrows and Samekh the notion of straight and narrow paths in Christianity are well known ;
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter.  Mathew.

Of course archery also plays a significant part in Zen tradition and in Hinduism, Arjuna is associated with the stringing and shooting of the bow.  The Thoth card,  Art with the alchemical solve coagula is , of course the painful destruction and piecing together of one's internal map including confronting the self image and any illusory perceptions we hold. I include metaphysical paradigms here but others are free to disagree but I've found an interesting discussion on the matter ( http://www.christianforums.com/t59942/) ; Samekh is the only Hebrew letter that is "enclosed". It has a circular shape. It is sometimes referred to as a "clasping" hand. This is the 3rd "hand" letter. The difference being:
YOD - the WORKING hand
KAF - the BENT or COVERING palm of the hand
SAMEKH - the CLASPING or UPHOLDING hand

The idea is that of "encircling" or "enclosing" a group of things, ideas, facts, people, or "holding on to" or "upholding" someone, something, or some idea. To REMEMBER is to "uphold in the mind" or "bear in mind". This Hebrew word begins with a SAMEKH. Many words beginning with a SAMEKH reflect this idea of upholding or the idea of encircling or measuring. In the Hebrew mind, evidence, measurements or proof was seen as a group of facts or numbers with a circle drawn around them because these facts or number "UPHELD" (sameched) the truth. This is a very foreign way of thinking to us, but very common to the Hebrew.  That's interesting and it would appear that scepticism (the search for evidence and truth) is basically the only real path to enlightenment as it were.

The Art card is about balance and when we meditate, if we do it right we are literally balancing out every cognitive distortion that the Khu indulges in. Examples of such distortions are catastrophizing and/or polarity-thinking (not seeing grey areas in a given situation) and/or abusing concepts about time e.g. "she never gets it right" or "he is always sloppy." 


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Shiva
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05/03/2015 12:30 am  
"david" wrote:
It would seem that you were a seeker of euphoria.  You wanted to specialize in "getting high" and "being free."  Would that be accurate?

No cigar, no libation, no prize. Answer: No! How did you come to that interpretation of seeing the lights? Psychedelics cause light shows. Get it? "Seeing the Lights," just as I said; no clever interpretation required.

[/align:1j46kr1t]


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Shiva
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05/03/2015 12:33 am  
"david" wrote:
The Art card is about balance and when we meditate, if we do it right we are literally balancing out every cognitive distortion that the Khu indulges in.

Thanks for the free lesson. Can we get back to Magickal vs Mundane Ordeals?


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Hamal
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05/03/2015 1:20 am  

Some of these threads are ordeals unto themselves!

😮


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Anonymous
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05/03/2015 12:17 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
It would seem that you were a seeker of euphoria.  You wanted to specialize in "getting high" and "being free."  Would that be accurate?

No cigar, no libation, no prize. Answer: No! How did you come to that interpretation of seeing the lights? Psychedelics cause light shows. Get it? "Seeing the Lights," just as I said; no clever interpretation required.

You "saw lights"?  There's an atmosphere of people trying to catch each other out on the forum which isn't good.  I'm not trying to catch you out.  You had some sort of astral vision experience and were curious enough to investigate?  Is that a fair assessment? 


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jamie barter
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05/03/2015 1:07 pm  
"david" wrote:
[...] There's an atmosphere of people trying to catch each other out on the forum which isn't good. [...]

Really, david? 😮 This is your perception, and not borne out by any rational assessment of the evidence: you seem to have the idea people are out to get at you in particular, or else vampirise you, or some other weird type of delusion.  I for one have no such desire anyway.  It’s often said that people with such ideas have an increased sense of their own importance in the scheme of things, but with you I’d just settle for being a touch paranoid (in which case I think I'll therefore diplomatically refrain from reminding you that, just because you are paranoid it doesn’t mean to say that no one’s out to get you ;D)

Get well soon ?!  (And hoping for a swift return back to all those ordeals of the magickal & the mundane!)...
N Joy


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Shiva
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05/03/2015 2:27 pm  
"david" wrote:
You "saw lights"?  There's an atmosphere of people trying to catch each other out on the forum which isn't good.  I'm not trying to catch you out.  You had some sort of astral vision experience and were curious enough to investigate?  Is that a fair assessment?

No! You continue to mis-interpret. I got drawn into the "Path" because I wanted to see the [psychedelic] lights. There was no mention of actually "seeing" anything. I wanted to ... and that drew me to trying out the legal substance, and then my experience led me to pursue further activity.

Now the simplest of sentences, drawn out by your endless, personal questioning, has drawn your paranoia to the surface. Nobody needs to "catch you," as you're doing a fine job all by yourself. Let it go, and let's get back to Ordeals - your OP thread, no less.


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jamie barter
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05/03/2015 4:45 pm  

I had thought of adding the following to my previous post, then I thought “no, david will probably have realised this already” but then it occurred to me that you might well not do that at all & that it might be worthwhile for you in some way if I were to - all joking apart - post it after all. 

To begin with, lots of posters have consistently asked you to state your sources clearly.  There are plenty of examples here of how to do this adequately, using page numbers etc.  I have also asked you to do the same – the last time to provide one for the Gurdjieff reference, which apparently you think we will all manage to “remember” the same as you do.  Simple enough and not at all unreasonable or impolite requests regarding citation, yet you have ignored them.

Secondly, despite all that has been written about it, your use of the term the Khu again just now

"david" wrote:
The Art card is about balance and when we meditate, if we do it right we are literally balancing out every cognitive distortion that the Khu indulges in.

almost amounts to some sort of a deliberate provocation I feel, in your having taken no notice, ignored, & having absolutely ridden roughshod over mine (and Tao’s) again perfectly reasonable requests for you to state what you understand by your use of the word in this thread.

Thirdly, although you similarly disregard mine and newneuburgOuch2’s request for you to explain your comments regarding initiation with some more additional clarifying remarks relating to first-hand practical evidence, these you have also ignored seemingly because you feel it would “put you on the spot” or make you vulnerable in some way.  Yet instead, however, you think nothing of questioning and interrogating Shiva to ask him personal details about his own experience – is this not a touch one-sided and hypocritical, don’t you think?

Fourth, you don’t seem to mind going off-topic although you have criticised others for doing so.  I’m not complaining about the fact myself (nor could I really, in view of the number of threads I’ve diverted in my own small way!) but simply registering the occurrence.  But lately it’s become compounded by your giving uncalled-for and largely irrelevant lessons in (pseudo-)cabbala and the Tree, didactically spieling forth when you previously intimated previously not so long ago that you’re a relative beginner finding his way upon the path.  You never even came out as a skeptic until a short time ago.  So do you not think that some people might regard this as a bit rich?

Fifth and lastly, as I have mentioned before, you have ignored mine and others points when it has suited you to do so.  This is a very bad habit which you have acquired along the way and seem to have picked up from Los, who prefers not to answer any points which challenge his own limited world view.  Even that is his prerogative though, although it has the effect of limiting his own credibility with which to present any case and arguments in the future.  I hope you will not choose to continue to ape and follow his behaviour as well as his sceptical/ ultra-rationalist point of view in terms of your own further advancement. There are few things which cause my own lip to curl with disdain more than a poster who activates a thread with much fanfare calling for lively conversation with feedback & debate, etc., only to then ignore any pungent points which may arise. One gets used to posters ignoring questions or points directed at them – it is after all their right to choose whether to respond or not – but it is a decidedly different matter if they are the active initiator of the thread/ discussion themselves.

In nine times out of ten a simple “I don’t know” – as in, “I don’t know what I’m on about here” – would be acceptable – just - as it’s at least an honest response.  Blather and generally bullshitting one’s way out doesn’t count or cut it at all, and is as reprehensible and almost worse than actual dumb silence in this respect.  I don’t particularly like the gambit of answering a question with another question either, or turning it back around to the questioner, but even this is sometimes acceptable under particular circumstances, if done well & with intelligence.  But best of all's a full & frank, proper but concise answer covering all aspects of the relevant question or point in hand. 

Enough is enough on these matters though & I’ll not mention them any further in this thread.  You will either have got it by now I sense or you never will.  So, choose ye well & all that.

Hoping this has not proved too much of an ordeal for you (which we are now back to, maybe?)! 🙂
N Joy


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Shiva
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05/03/2015 5:19 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
... absolutely ridden roughshod over mine (and Tao’s) again perfectly reasonable requests ...

"Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise." - AL

David is merely evoking the "infinite & unknown factor," and your attempts to be "reasonable" are a fatal folly - as is my simple answer(s) to his rather complex question(s).

... giving uncalled-for and largely irrelevant lessons in (pseudo-)cabbala and the Tree ...

Oh, you noticed.

... a simple “I don’t know” ... would be acceptable ...

Say now, some countries still have blaphemy laws and penalties - you'd best be careful what you're implying.

... too much of an ordeal ...

Aha! We finally return to the Subject at Hand, which has become The Lost Word that may never be found again. 😉


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Anonymous
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05/03/2015 7:42 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Now the simplest of sentences, drawn out by your endless, personal questioning, has drawn your paranoia to the surface. Nobody needs to "catch you," as you're doing a fine job all by yourself. Let it go, and let's get back to Ordeals - your OP thread, no less.

What was it that you wished to discuss about the OP?


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jamie barter
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05/03/2015 8:34 pm  
"david" wrote:
What was it that you wished to discuss about the OP?
"jamie barter" wrote:
[...] I don’t particularly like the gambit of answering a question with another question either, or turning it back around to the questioner, but even this is sometimes acceptable under particular circumstances, if done well & with intelligence. 

Hoping this has not proved too much of an ordeal for you (which we are now back to, maybe?)! 🙂
N Joy


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newneubergOuch2
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05/03/2015 10:35 pm  

Post #78. Well said Jamie.


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Anonymous
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05/03/2015 11:15 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"david" wrote:
You "saw lights"?  There's an atmosphere of people trying to catch each other out on the forum which isn't good.  I'm not trying to catch you out.  You had some sort of astral vision experience and were curious enough to investigate?  Is that a fair assessment?

No! You continue to mis-interpret. I got drawn into the "Path" because I wanted to see the [psychedelic] lights. There was no mention of actually "seeing" anything. I wanted to ... and that drew me to trying out the legal substance, and then my experience led me to pursue further activity.

Now the simplest of sentences, drawn out by your endless, personal questioning, has drawn your paranoia to the surface. Nobody needs to "catch you," as you're doing a fine job all by yourself. Let it go, and let's get back to Ordeals - your OP thread, no less.

See Los's reply #2.  Do you agree with those points?  I do.  You say I diverted from the OP.  You weren't paying attention to how the thread developed.  I agreed with the points in Los's reply #2 which led me to bring in Erwin's views and then Los's TOL blog post.  Now I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are one of the handful of fairly sensible posters here but now I'm not so sure.  You seem to be rambling on about my apparent thread diversions because you don't favour the information therein?  I don't know, you tell me.  Please keep up.   


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newneubergOuch2
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06/03/2015 3:09 am  


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newneubergOuch2
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06/03/2015 3:29 am  







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Anonymous
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06/03/2015 8:33 am  

That's clever you know how to use photoshop.  Can you not see how teenage that is.  How about articulating yourself and addressing my last reply as oppose to pasting a buch of disparate quotes.  Then again are you actually capable of intelligent discourse?


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newneubergOuch2
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06/03/2015 8:48 am  

You seem incapable of self reflection or making use of what is offered to you.

Now you are resulting to sniping and insults.

Its a pity you stopped before you even got started on the path.

Good luck on your future endeavors.


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Anonymous
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06/03/2015 12:08 pm  

My reply before the photoshop  was the last relevant post related to the OP.  Is there if anyones interested.  Snipey comments?  You posted a bunch of quotes without articulating yourself.  If you want to tell me what you're trying to say then I can have a conversation with you.


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jamie barter
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06/03/2015 12:14 pm  
"david" wrote:
See Los's reply #2.  Do you agree with those points?  I do.   You say I diverted from the OP.  You weren't paying attention to how the thread developed.  I agreed with the points in Los's reply #2 which led me to bring in Erwin's views and then Los's TOL blog post.

Re Los’s reply #2, I thought we had moved beyond that.  As I myself remarked on it, I thought the Master Johnny Rotten ;D encapsulated what Los said far more succinctly (and musically) in his own take on “Problems”:

Too many problems, oh why am I here
I need to be me cos you're all too clear
And I can see there's something wrong with you
But what do you expect me to do?
At least I know what I want to be
Don't come to me if you need pity …

Eat your heart out on a plastic tray,
You don't do what you want [will], and you fade away
You won't find me working nine to five:
it's too much fun - being alive!
You won't find me living for the screen …
Are you lonely?  All needs catered?
You’ve got your brains de-hy-drated

Well I ain't equipment and I ain't automatic
You won't find me just staying static
So don't you give me any order -
For people like me, There is No Order

Betcha thought you had it all worked out
Betcha thought you knew what I was about
Betcha thought you'd solved all your problems
But You - are The Problem!

Problem, problem
The problem is You
What you gonna do with your problem -
I'll leave it up to you:
Problem, Problem,
Problem, Problem … [etc ad nauseam]

So, david, what more do you think needs to be said on this subject?

"david" wrote:
Now I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are one of the handful of fairly sensible posters here but now I'm not so sure.  You seem to be rambling on about my apparent thread diversions because you don't favour the information therein?  I don't know, you tell me.  Please keep up.
"david" wrote:
That's clever you know how to use photoshop.  Can you not see how teenage that is.  How about articulating yourself and addressing my last reply as oppose to pasting a buch of disparate quotes.  Then again are you actually capable of intelligent discourse?

The above is the familiar “rebel response” aka “the offensive defensive fuck you approach” known to psychotherapy the western world over.  There were two paths you could have gone by (♫ but in the long run there’s still time to change the road you’re on)  – you could either have accepted the criticism on the chin and made an affirmation to try to improve yourself – for your own benefit if nothing else; or, to continued to think: no, “everyone’s ganging up on me the rotten swines” and lash out instead.  It may give you some momentary satisfaction, but it won’t change your position & it will probably piss certain people off further.  However it seems as if you may have already gone beyond (even caring about) that stage, although I don’t quite know yet if you’re maybe totally beyond hope.  (The next stage on this path is where you’ll storm out of the forum, slamming the door behind you – metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Don‘t you think it’s noticeable though that not “even Los” (quite apart from anyone else) has come to your defence or even given support to your point of view lately, and he has remained silent since Reply #2?  Has that fact alone not given you some pause for thought?

In line with the host of Biblical references there has been lately, “Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.” (Proverbs 26:12)
‘иjoY


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Anonymous
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06/03/2015 12:26 pm  

As I say, Shiva you asked me to get back on topic.  I showed you that I was on topic and then we had some distractions.  Over to you.


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Shiva
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06/03/2015 3:32 pm  
"david" wrote:
I agreed with the points in Los's reply #2 which led me to bring in Erwin's views and then Los's TOL blog post.

The evocation of Los and Erwin 😮
Is there no help for the widow's son?

Now I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are one of the handful of fairly sensible posters here ...

Gee, thanks. That gives me hope for getting out of here alive.

... but now I'm not so sure.  You seem to be rambling on about my apparent thread diversions because you don't favour the information therein?  I don't know, you tell me.  Please keep up.   

Aw, shucks, now I'm sure the widow's son is dead. I'm running as fast as I can.

Magickal ordeals are just like mundane ordeals. The only ones that count are those that impact the physical plane and therefore place the ordealee in a position of having his/her life threatened. This somehow causes the person to re-examine his/her life, and perhaps to "discover secret motives" ... or not, depending on the person and the circumstances. Some Indians go on a "vision quest" whereby they purposely put themselves in an oredeal state; after starving and thirsting their way toward the edge of that abyss called death, they have a "vision," which supposedly grants them insight into their purpose, or at least gives them their true name.

If I was considered to be in the running for the title of "one of the handful of fairly sensible posters here," where does that leave all the rest of the lashtalians who are not included in that small handful?

Are they the losers, the slaves of because, the retarded retrogrades, the flotsam of metaphysical humanity? Pay attention you wrecks, David don't think much of your smarts 😉
... and now I'm in danger of being cast among you. Alas!


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obscurus
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06/03/2015 5:36 pm  

Oh Damn! I am still alive?


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Anonymous
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06/03/2015 10:41 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Magickal ordeals are just like mundane ordeals. .

As Los reminded us, an "ordeal" or "problem" is a way we frame a circumstance or an event.  Do you accept that?

"Shiva" wrote:
The only ones that count are those that impact the physical plane and therefore place the ordealee in a position of having his/her life threatened. .

If there are no real ordeals as such then the fact that you are creating your own personal definition of ordeals as being only near death experiences suggests that you could be going off on a tangent.  Having said that I do agree that NDEs (and other such unpleasant experiences) can jolt someone to get wider perspectives or as a policeman once wrote (in a book I read) about a victim of crime that "they took a more philosophical view on the matter."

"Shiva" wrote:
This somehow causes the person to re-examine his/her life, and perhaps to "discover secret motives" ... or not, depending on the person and the circumstances.

That's the important bit depending on the person and the circumstances i.e. the ones with strength of character are what Crowley was alluding to when he said (from the OP) (chapter 21 Magick),“there may come a time when Samadhi itself is no part of the business of the mystic. But the character developed by the original training remains an asset.”  I'm sure you'd agree that the strength of character someone has is in direct proportion to their capacity to see reality as it is through the BS delusions that may infest their internal map of the world.  We work on this when we meditate don't we?  We practice suspension of thought thereby.

Crowley's notion of "discover(ing) secret motives" seems to be an allusion to initiation or moving towards the discovery of True Will.

"Shiva" wrote:
Some Indians go on a "vision quest" whereby they purposely put themselves in an ordeal state; after starving and thirsting their way toward the edge of that abyss called death, they have a "vision," which supposedly grants them insight into their purpose, or at least gives them their true name.

Well a lot of tribes resort to torture and self-harm as some sort of brutish coping mechanism particularly for the pre pubescent members.  The idea is if you can go through this then it puts you in good stead.  It's much like the army's (or English public schools) secret practice of beating the shit out of stragglers re the movie, A Few Good Men.  This BS about the "Great Spirit" will give you your true name Two Dogs Running or Crazy Horse (when you torture or starve yourself) etc whatever is of course nonsense and embroilment in fantasy and self-delusion.     


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Shiva
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07/03/2015 12:31 am  
"david" wrote:
... an "ordeal" or "problem" is a way we frame a circumstance or an event.  Do you accept that?

Sure! It's all about how we interprete our situations and ourselves.

... you are creating your own personal definition of ordeals as being only near death experiences ...

No. Not necessarily "near death." I said, "having his/her life threatened," which is merely a perception. Maybe it's simply that a situation suggests that the person is in danger, or is wandering in the wasteland and getting thirsty. Something as drastic as a NDE is not required. Maybe a person is simply sitting in his home, with plenty of water, but is frightened "near to death" while imagining that the police are going to show up any minute over a paper clip he recently liberated from his employer.

We practice suspension of thought thereby.

"What we call psychic powers -- clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc. -- are already there in the animals. We also have them in us. In the case of some, through techniques of meditation and such gimmicks, thought slows down. Then they experience these so-called powers, temporarily, and they think that they are all spiritual experiences." 😮 
-U.G. Thought is Your Enemy

This BS about the "Great Spirit" will give you your true name Two Dogs Running or Crazy Horse (when you torture or starve yourself) etc whatever is of course nonsense and embroilment in fantasy and self-delusion.

It seems to work for the Indians. We all have to use some process when deciding our magickal names and mottos. They like to do it via starvation ordeals.


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 Anonymous
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07/03/2015 10:41 pm  

Clairvoyance - no matter if one believe in it or not, one thing is certain, it's an ability of reflective/associative character:

http://www.medicaldaily.com/lucid-dreaming-associated-more-pronounced-self-reflection-everyday-life-319326

Austin Osman Spare claimed in his Book of pleasure that prophesy was possible if one induced the conditions. What's special with some mediums is that they manage to induce trance conditions while at the same time communicate with the spirits, in other words the activity in prefrontal cortex has to be active also. This is what happens in lucid dreams also. So it might be an advantage if this part of the brain is developed properly. In regular sleep it's not active. The mechanics of dream control are in many ways similar to those which effect conscious astral projection. "My own system of dream control derives from two sources: the formula of Eroto-Comatose Lucidity discovered by Ida Nellidoff and adapted by Crowley to his sex-magical techniques,22 and Spare's system of Sentient Sigils explained below" (The The cults of the shadow, Kenneth Grant). One way of strengthening these parts of the brain are probably systems like the tree of life or the Spare's alphabet, which is based on pattern recognition. "The same study also found they (lucid dreamers) were better at problem solving, specifically with regards to recognizing patterns ( http://www.medicaldaily.com/lucid-dreaming-associated-more-pronounced-self-reflection-everyday-life-319326).

Meditation is another way to strengthen the pre-frontal cortex: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2014/06/12/what-does-mindfulness-meditation-do-to-your-brain/


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Tao
 Tao
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08/03/2015 1:12 am  
"david" wrote:
If there are no real ordeals as such...

How does this follow? As I read it, the discussion has pretty firmly established that there are "real ordeals as such."  It is, however, the terms "mundane" and "magical" that are the distractions as they imply division where there is, in fact, unity.


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William Thirteen
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08/03/2015 11:22 am  

a lot of tribes resort to torture and self-harm as some sort of brutish coping mechanism particularly for the pre pubescent members.

an apt description of these recent threads…


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Anonymous
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08/03/2015 12:39 pm  
"WilliamThirteen" wrote:

a lot of tribes resort to torture and self-harm as some sort of brutish coping mechanism particularly for the pre pubescent members.

an apt description of these recent threads…

Recent threads?  There haven't been any recent threads just the latest incessant Jimmy Page trivia. 


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Anonymous
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08/03/2015 1:02 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:

No. Not necessarily "near death." I said, "having his/her life threatened," which is merely a perception. Maybe it's simply that a situation suggests that the person is in danger, or is wandering in the wasteland and getting thirsty.

Fair enough yes.

"Shiva" wrote:
Something as drastic as a NDE is not required. Maybe a person is simply sitting in his home, with plenty of water, but is frightened "near to death" while imagining that the police are going to show up any minute over a paper clip he recently liberated from his employer.

Yes this sort of psychological anguish of fighting dragons in a fantasy land is an ordeal I guess. It's indicative of a paranoid state of mind which is regression to baby-level functioning isn't it?  I highly recommend this book  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Families-Survive-Them-Cedar-Books/dp/0749314109 it gives a description of how we create our own internal map of the world from babyhood to adulthood.  In times of stress we may regress to lower level functioning.  A baby cannot bear it's own extreme needy screaming for attention so it will project that terror as if the terror is coming from out there in the world.  It's a common distortion of Khu. This is, in effect a psychological safety valve but we retain this in adulthood.  An obvious example is blaming a certain class or race when economies fail. 

Also I recall that Jack Nicholson and Hopper took LSD in a cabin in the woods.  Nicholson recounted that he stood all night with his back to the door (during "the trip") holding a weapon, convinced that murderous Indians were on the way.  I guess such drugs eat away at the faculty of reason and allow the subconscious to run wild.

I said We practice suspension of thought thereby. (during meditation.)

You responded with..........

"Shiva" wrote:
"What we call psychic powers -- clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc. -- are already there in the animals. We also have them in us. In the case of some, through techniques of meditation and such gimmicks, thought slows down. Then they experience these so-called powers, temporarily, and they think that they are all spiritual experiences." 😮 
-U.G. Thought is Your Enemy

We become "psychic" and animal-like when we suspend thought?  A sincere thanks for that but I don't know if that's on topic.  I don't subscribe to that view but that's another thread.  There is no "6th sense" there's just high speed collation of info and high speed common- sense analysis of that info which is so fast that it gives the false impression to the conscious ego of being a strange 6th sense...but anyway it's another thread.     

"Shiva" wrote:
It seems to work for the Indians. We all have to use some process when deciding our magickal names and mottos. They like to do it via starvation ordeals.

Self-harm and brutality.  Is this a viable and sensible method for finding one's "magical name"?  Do we even need a magical name?  Well, no to be frank so it's a wholy irrational hobby imo. 


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Shiva
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08/03/2015 3:57 pm  
"david" wrote:
... Nicholson and Hopper took LSD in a cabin in the woods. ... murderous Indians were on the way.  I guess such drugs eat away at the faculty of reason and allow the subconscious to run wild.

Only in the case of a "repressed" subconscious mind. LSD (et al) often causes bizarre imaginary scenarios to manifest, especially in the beginning, that is, in the earlier experiments, and can give rise to situations that are, indeed, dangerour ordeals. If magickal ceremonies are included with the libation, then genuine magickal ordeals will often (usually? always?) arise. But with a little practce ...

"By the way, since that day, I have never been incapacitated so much by a libation that I have not been able to stand and freely move about. I believe that such was always the case, for I can remember no instances of paralysis, but on that day I consciously knew it and thereafter I could (and would) easily move anywhere in the physical world while under psychedelic influence." - ISLBTV

There is no "6th sense" ...

That's right! There is only "ESP." which is [not "extra" but] extended sensory perception. That is, the "normal" 5 senses can be "extended" to include areas not "normally" perceived, and this can be demonstrated when a person is under long term stress - as in an "ordeal." It has also been demonstrated, by doctors in laboratory and clinical tests, that [some] people who seem to see auras also show an extended visual acuity that extends into the ultra-violet range (extends beyond the "normal" range of visual frequencies).

Self-harm and brutality.  Is this a viable and sensible method ...?

Oh, you mean like Liber III vel Jugorum?

Also, a simple Vision Quest is merely sitting and fasting ... not unlike the ordeals of asana or dharana. No self-harm or brutality. Nothing like those fakir fakers ...

[/align:tescrscm]

Do we even need a magical name?

If you're in the A.'.A.'., the answer is "yes," because it's a requirement. Sometimes people resort to self-imposed ordeals in order to find that "verbal and/or written expression of their Will." Down through multinational history, aspirants and initiates and gurus and potentates have taken a "new name" in order to reflect change. Do we even need a "civil name?" No. We could all be referred to as, "Hey you!" We don't "need" anything but air, water, food and sometimes clothing and/or shelter. If we go without any of those for long, it quickly becomes an ordeal.


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