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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/01/2012 12:38 am  

Hey everyone
  I have three questions id like to put to the panel. 🙂
  1- do you guys prefer the watchtowers of john dee or do you prefer the watchtowers of the golden dawn?
  2- when a person is working with a square would it not be just as effective as long as a person knows the corresponding attributes.
  3- do you guys think the golden dawn attributes are correct.

  I am starting a series of classes in which the culmination is producing an enochian temple for the lodge.  In the past I have always used the gd version.  but as I grow older I am skeptical about it because I havent found anything in dee's writings that allude to such attributes.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
08/01/2012 4:42 am  

I haven't done much specifically Enochian work (as you know, my practices are more heavily influenced by the East), but I could help with references if necessary and offer my own point of view based on other experiences.

"93weeks" wrote:
Hey everyone
  I have three questions id like to put to the panel. 🙂
  1- do you guys prefer the watchtowers of john dee or do you prefer the watchtowers of the golden dawn?

Personally, if/when I ever decide to take up the Enochian work, I would prefer the Watchtowers of John Dee. I think that while the Watchtowers of the Golden Dawn would be helpful in understanding those of the original, if I was going to do it all I would want to work with the original and make my own experiments with it, then compare the notes to those written by Crowley and the HoGD. But it's merely a preference.

"93weeks" wrote:
2- when a person is working with a square would it not be just as effective as long as a person knows the corresponding attributes.

Either square should work fine, in my opinion. Remember the Averse: You are working the attributes, they are not working you. In that light, any attributes can be used. It's a matter of one's own training, position, and point of view.

"93weeks" wrote:
  3- do you guys think the golden dawn attributes are correct.

Who knows?

"93weeks" wrote:
I am starting a series of classes in which the culmination is producing an enochian temple for the lodge.  In the past I have always used the gd version.  but as I grow older I am skeptical about it because I havent found anything in dee's writings that allude to such attributes.

Why not divide your series up into two sections, one on Dee's attributes and one on those of the HoGD? That way you can inform the attendants of each approach, and allow them to make more educated decisions about their own Enochian work.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/01/2012 7:36 am  

  but I could help with references if necessary and offer my own point of view based on other experiences.

The references I believe I have covered..And am always interested in points of view...

Personally, if/when I ever decide to take up the Enochian work, I would prefer the Watchtowers of John Dee. I think that while the Watchtowers of the Golden Dawn would be helpful in understanding those of the original, if I was going to do it all I would want to work with the original and make my own experiments with it, then compare the notes to those written by Crowley and the HoGD. But it's merely a preference.

  This is what im looking for. and I am leaning towards this point of view.

Either square should work fine, in my opinion. Remember the Averse: You are working the attributes, they are not working you. In that light, any attributes can be used. It's a matter of one's own training, position, and point of view.

  You kind of lost me here maybe I should expand.  There is a way to invoke any square on any of the elemental tablets. I was meaning if one used dee's towers and kept in mind of the hogd attributes if the effect would be the same...not sure about the reference to averse?

Who knows?

Thats what im trying to find out.

Why not divide your series up into two sections, one on Dee's attributes and one on those of the HoGD? That way you can inform the attendants of each approach, and allow them to make more educated decisions about their own Enochian work.

Actually the classes will go from january to may and we will be discussing both systems..But making of the tools takes time if one is going to do it in quality. and I have to make the decision from your different responses what would be the towers that we will be using. I am leaning toward j.d's version. But thought maybe someone could come up with some great reason why I would use the trunicated pyramid towers instead...you know some mystical experience, like talking to a cat or guessing what condiments the person in front of you is having on there hot dog before they order it. just general hooga booga stuff. ha ha


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
11/01/2012 6:09 pm  
"93weeks" wrote:
.But making of the tools takes time if one is going to do it in quality. and I have to make the decision from your different responses what would be the towers that we will be using. I am leaning toward j.d's version. But thought maybe someone could come up with some great reason why I would use the trunicated pyramid towers instead...you know some mystical experience, like talking to a cat or guessing what condiments the person in front of you is having on there hot dog before they order it. just general hooga booga stuff. ha ha

When source material is available, as it is now with Dee's work, use it.  It hasn't been obscured by other peoples' biases. 

But, having drawn and colored and labeled the GD truncated pyramid tablets, my impression is that it is totally worth it.  It is so tedious and meditative that you can't help but notice patterns and get insights into the structure and flow of Dee's Enochian system.  Also, they look pretty and make your temple oh so occultish and magical.  Sadly, my cat has not yet attained the power of speech.

By the way, Zalewski's "Enochian Magick of the Golden Dawn" has some errors in the charts.  If you use that book, follow the text description of the patterns of the Hebrew letters.  The patterns of the Hebrew letters are key, plus the qabalistic description of the crosses.  Everything else is extra and open to investigation and re-interpretation.  For example, I changed some of the GD's alchemical associations that were already subjective - mainly, which elements are associated with which planets.  Alchemically, astrological signs have inherent elemental associations, planets do not.  But on the GD Enochian tablets, planets are given elemental associations for symmetry and convenience - apparently, they couldn't leave part of a square blank!  Long story short, it's good to investigate Dee's original material so you can find out what the GD added later and then decide which additions and modifications you wish to retain and which don't make sense to you.   


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/01/2012 7:54 pm  
"mika" wrote:
But, having drawn and colored and labeled the GD truncated pyramid tablets, my impression is that it is totally worth it.  It is so tedious and meditative that you can't help but notice patterns and get insights into the structure and flow of Dee's Enochian system.   

I agree with this. The tedious process of methodically creating the tablets seems to engrave the required patterns into one's brain, quite involuntarily, which may account, in part,  for the sometimes remarkable subsequent results with the magical system. The more you strive to make the tablets perfectly, correcting even the slightest error in line or color, the better. Like much of the old GD stuff, regardless of its origins, it is oddly effective much of the time.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2582
22/01/2012 5:56 pm  

Funny this comes up sort of when I am thinking about this.
I just wanted to agree on the process of making the tablets etc as meditation aspect. 
The verrrry tedious process of drawing/carving etc and then colouring all the squares after writing in the enochian letters, puts one in an altered state just based on its repetiveness, but one could argue that subconscious exposure to the characters could cause a change in state due to their Outside-ness.


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