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katrice
(@katrice)
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Some may have noticed that I have an interest in esoteric history. 
 
But what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them?  Do such interests serve no purpose except as a distraction?
 
It's my belief that understanding the roots of our practices can help us to deepen our understanding of, and  connection to, what we do now. I believe that seeing how magick was practiced in the past, and exploring the works of historical magicians and scholars, can also open new doors for us.
 
I am not a reconstructionist, though, despite having respect for their methods.    I believe more in taking what works best from the past, bringing it in to alignment with the present, and carrying it in to the future.  Some of Crowley's own works seem to indicate that he had a similar stance, bringing older rituals, and remakings of older rituals, in to his own work.
 
This is naturally only my own approach, dwtw, ymmv.  😉 

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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

I believe more in taking what works best from the past, bringing it in to alignment with the present

Yes, these were the instructions in AL. "5. Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright."

So AC did this, and cranked it all out in the Libers. The phrase, "evil ones be cast away," is what you are asking about. I am not able to find a proper answer because it depends on what AC thought was "evil." I would simply look for "what works" and discard the BS that doesn't work. But I didn't write the Libers, and neither did you, so we're wondering if the rules can be bent. (Of course they can).

But I have no problem in describing the Path as a Curriculum. If one goes to a "professional" school (medicine, dentistry, engineering), they get handed a [menu, agenda, list of courses]. This is what you will study! No electives, no gym, no free-spirited self-development courses. This is the Path for a certain type of aspirant - one who needs and responds well to a structured course of study - as AC presented in the Curriculum of the A.'.A.'.. Period. One gets a "mentor" and goes to work. No attention is paid to "other stuff." This works well until Paroketh - the rules change at the Veil.

Then there are the Liberal and Fine Arts, and to a certain extent, the Sciences. One has a core curriculum they must follow, but the branches of this Tree [of Knowledge] are graces with Electives. Pick and Choose. Sometimes the elective must be in a certain broader subject, but sometimes it's a shopping spree.

Frankly (I don't know what the French have to do with it), Solar Lodge was in this category. There was a hard-line core composed of the Oaths and The Tasks of the Grades of the A.'.A.'.. But then our teacher introduced The Inner Teacher [booklet and practice], The 28-day Practice to Determine Will, and I introduced The Ritual of the Equinox. The Student Reading List became adjusted (to books that were actually available). There were electives. I taught Karate and Aikido. Five members formed a band. Nobody I know of opened a historical search into the root causes, although I enjoyed studying papyri and the "evil" practices of the Sumerian magicians; but I never engaged that paradigm in ritual - I saved Abramelin for that.

I was also interested in a certain scenario that arose on more than one occasion, when we were under the influence of the legal Swiss libation. The temple, which was the living room of a 19-teens restored house, would morph into a cave. There was a fire, and everybody was draped in cat-skins, just like we see in the GD pics ...

I never have figured out why robed men drape animal pelts over their shoulders, but the pelts appeared in the primal scenario ... where one got a taste of the origins of the art.

The there's the solo aspirants. They study Crowley and do the practices, but not necessarily in order, and they may (or not) take the Oaths along the way. They might do TM (Trans Med - not the Toy's "trademark"). They might evoke the Devil (like Allan Bennett did). Anybody in this category gets to do whatever they want. They have no guru to reign them in or throw them out.

So it depend on who you are and where you think you're going, and what your own yama-niyama includes or excludes. 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @katrice

what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them?

Because we don't do what we are told, being the petulant Children of the New Aeon who resonate with Crowley's words in "Hymn to Lucifer" wherein he wrote "Disobedience is the Key to Joy."

Posted by: @katrice

Do such interests serve no purpose except as a distraction?

Would we say that our engagement with history in the making should be at the expense of examining what has gone before, what has led up to all our present crisis points?

And, of course, AC's entire body of work makes reference to "what has gone before." When I first began reading him, I was told that I should make diligent study of the Holy Qabalah. I guess some things never go out of style, even with the passing of Aeons.

Posted by: @katrice

I believe more in taking what works best from the past, bringing it in to alignment with the present, and carrying it in to the future

A sound and practical approach. Is this not the Way of Art? And Science? Every great and admirable figure in any field whatsoever has done just this, from Dali to Einstein to Bob Dylan, from Jackson Pollock to Quantum Physics to John Lydon and into the Cyberverse, from Pong to Quake to a VR headset strapped to the face...

In the words of Killing Joke:

One by one, we embark, to the sun behind the sun-cast off, steer straight, into the unknown-after disclosure comes, man takes his rightful place amongst the stars...

...the celestial barge awaits.

Whatever serves the Graal shall be known as Holy.

 

 


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fraterihsan
(@fraterihsan)
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Posted by: @katrice
Some may have noticed that I have an interest in esoteric history. 
 
But what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them?  Do such interests serve no purpose except as a distraction?
 

Well it's an important element of the Thelemic story and is a referential feature in certain parts of the A.A. and the OTO (including sections dedicated to it in the Gnostic Mass).

Whether it's a matter of Aiwass vs Crowley on this matter is a case of essentiality vs non-essentiality, perhaps. But in Crowley's own approach definitely one essential component. 

"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - Liber Legis 2:58
"To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss." - Liber Legis 3:62


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gurugeorge
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Posted by: @katrice

But what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them? 

Shiva answered that with the appropriate quote, it's more a question of reform than of chucking everything out. 

Also, what's wrong with "black?"  One could say it's just absence of light - so the idea would be that the New Aeon light is shining elsewhere, it's no longer shining on those old things.  Well, simple, you just shove the best of the old idols back to where the light is 🙂


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Some may have noticed that I have an interest in esoteric history. 
 
But what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them?  Do such interests serve no purpose except as a distraction?
 
 

I think it refers to  the ritualistic prayer masses of the Abrahamic churches not e.g. medieval demonology or the Sabbaths of witchcraft.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @shiva

 

" is what you are asking about.

Rhetorical questions again, but it was interesting seeing people's answers.

 

Electives. Pick and Choose. Sometimes the elective must be in a certain broader subject, but sometimes it's a shopping spree.

I believe a standardized curriculum is essential for covering the essentials,but we also each resonate with different things too, and if something truly calls to it, then I believe there's a reason that it does. 

 

Frankly (I don't know what the French have to do with it), 

 

That was horrible. 😉 

 

I taught Karate and Aikido.

Martial arts can be a valuable practice for the magician, on a couple of levels.

No Ba Gua Zhang?

 

would morph into a cave. There was a fire, and everybody was draped in cat-skins 

a little bit of "past life" reversion?  Or visions of the roots of magick?

 

I never have figured out why robed men drape animal pelts over their shoulders

That...is a good question. 

 

Anybody in this category gets to do whatever they want. They have no guru to reign them in or throw them out.

So it depend on who you are and where you think you're going, and what your own yama-niyama includes or excludes. 

I've never been affiliated with any Thelemic organization, but I do the work, following the curriculum but also pursuing work that I feel drawn to.  

 

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Because we don't do what we are told, being the petulant Children of the New Aeon who resonate with Crowley's words in "Hymn to Lucifer" wherein he wrote "Disobedience is the Key to Joy."

 

GREAT ANSWER!!!

 

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

And, of course, AC's entire body of work makes reference to "what has gone before." When I first began reading him, I was told that I should make diligent study of the Holy Qabalah. I guess some things never go out of style, even with the passing of Aeons.

I've seen some people derogatorily call anything that predates Crowley as "Old Aeon",which seems a bit silly to me, given how much of Crowley's own work drew on past sources. This thread was partly inspired by a comment on one of my posts implying that historical delving serves no purpose, and partly from my realizing that I've done a lot of talking about history, especially tarot history, recently. 

 

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

A sound and practical approach.

Thank you.

Is this not the Way of Art? And Science? Every great and admirable figure in any field whatsoever has done just this, from Dali to Einstein to Bob Dylan, from Jackson Pollock to Quantum Physics to John Lydon and into the Cyberverse, from Pong to Quake to a VR headset strapped to the face...

Another great answer.

We stand tall on the shoulders of those who came before us. 

 

Posted by: @fraterihsan

But in Crowley's own approach definitely one essential component. 

Crowley took much of what came before, what he saw as most valuable, and brought it in to alignment with his vision of the new Aeon.  He made his own Pentagram and Hexagram rituals, he adapted the Stele of Jeu in to Liber Samekh, he made use of Dee's Enochian work, Yoga, etc.  

 

Posted by: @gurugeorge

Also, what's wrong with "black?"  One could say it's just absence of light - so the idea would be that the New Aeon light is shining elsewhere, it's no longer shining on those old things.  Well, simple, you just shove the best of the old idols back to where the light is 🙂

I've personally interpreted it as just updating,bringing things in to alignment with the New Aeon, rather than parroting the Old Aeon. You have to know why things were done and how they can work in the new paradigm.  

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I think it refers to  the ritualistic prayer masses of the Abrahamic churches not e.g. medieval demonology or the Sabbaths of witchcraft.

I never thought it was about such things, Crowley explored some "dark" things himself, after all.   

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

Also, what's wrong with "black?"

I believe, in this case, black means evil - the abrogating-black lines also contain the word "evil" - so that's settled <haha>.   To settle all this [in my own mind], I discard any religious, philosophical, or moral dilemmae and remind myself ...

Evil, [D]evil, deviate, divide, diverge = Duality

We move on a path that is constantly unified/synthesized, as we approach the singularity at Kether. All the complexities are resolved into their common denominator(s). So if anyone wants to make the path more complex, then they should create a lot of stuff and build big complicated explanations for why we are here.

We have already been discussing Black in its highest sense (on some thread), and in its lowest sense it is used as a [bad] negative, sort of like useless rubbish.

Again, like the Paths on the Tree, it's a two-way street. Thus, we rely on that semi-abstract thing called context. Here, I will give [biased] context ...

In the human energy field, the appearance of black spots or black zones indicates necrosis - that is, a death-process is underway (for an organ or a system). This probably would be considered "bad" by western doctors, or "evil Chi" by the Oriental docs. This would be applicable in the lower spheres.

For a change in context, we see that black in the outermost sphere is the pure deal source - so the interpretation changes to good (God).

 


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hadgigegenraum
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@katrice

Yes I have noticed you interest in esoteric history and it is refreshing, has been informative to me and further demonstrates important nuances, as for example your mentioning in some other thread, that following "left hand" practices does mean that one is necessarily a 'satanist'...a loaded term if there ever was one...

Thanks!

 

 


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@katrice

Yes I have noticed you interest in esoteric history and it is refreshing, has been informative to me and further demonstrates important nuances, as for example your mentioning in some other thread, that following "left hand" practices does mean that one is necessarily a 'satanist'...a loaded term if there ever was one...

Thanks!

 

 

You're welcome, and thank you!  

at the risk of descending in to the dreaded Off Topic...

I think that Blavatsky is to blame for the association of the two, she had a distaste for Hindu Vama Marg practices and therefore demonized the term Left Hand Path.  Dennis Wheatley unintentionally created a lot of the modern aesthetic for Satanism, which LaVey later took and ran with, but Wheatley got a lot of his information from Rollo Ahmed. While Ahmed was a legitimate magician and yogi, he was also something of a trickster, so I don't know how much of what he fed Wheatley was what he believed in and how much of it was his having fun at Wheatley's expense, but Ahmed was probably also influenced by Blavatsky, as many people of that time were.  And now we have the confusion that LHP is synonymous with Satanism, when it's actually broader than that. 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

I think it refers to  the ritualistic prayer masses of the Abrahamic churches not e.g. medieval demonology or the Sabbaths of witchcraft.

I never thought it was about such things, Crowley explored some "dark" things himself, after all.   

 

 

No, I literally mean it isn't referring to magic rituals, it's referring to the Catholic Mass every Sunday and any other regular Christian sermon church group meeting or Mosque or Judaism sermons or traditions.  They are the Old time, Old Aeon rituals.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

They are the [among the] Old time, Old Aeon rituals.

FTFY, as the kids say.

Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright.

So some rituals may be "purged", but those not so "purged" are all "black"/"abrogate":

Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs.


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katrice
(@katrice)
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

No, I literally mean it isn't referring to magic rituals, it's referring to the Catholic Mass every Sunday and any other regular Christian sermon church group meeting or Mosque or Judaism sermons or traditions.  They are the Old time, Old Aeon rituals.

I knew what you'd meant, but thought  I'd already addressed the Old Aeon aspect earlier in my response, so I didn't feel the need to cover that part.I was just addressing your mention of medieval demonology and Sabbats, and my understanding that they were not what was referred to.

 

Posted by: @ignant666

FTFY, as the kids say.

Indeed,  those listed are just the best known ones, associated most with the Aeon of Osiris. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

thought  I'd already addressed the Old Aeon aspect earlier in my response

You will be defending any responses for the duration of this Aeon - for "Old Aeon" can become a touchier clishay than tThe Devil or the Seven Dwarfs.

 


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gurugeorge
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Posted by: @shiva

I believe, in this case, black means evil - the abrogating-black lines also contain the word "evil" - so that's settled . 

"Black" conceptually contains both the "good" and the "evil" ones, i.e. "Black" is divided into "good" and "evil."  So I don't think "Black" can be equated with "evil" in this case.

It's more as I said, they're unlit, not receiving a current, not "where the action is" (as compared to the early days of Christianity or Islam, say, when they were very much where the action was, and took the world by storm).

So it's like, they're dusty and forgotten in the attic now, but some of them are still salvageable and can be brought to the light of your altar and revitalized, so long as they accept the Law of Thelema (which, in a sense, auto-purges the bad bits).


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Some may have noticed that I have an interest in esoteric history. 
 
But what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them?  Do such interests serve no purpose except as a distraction?
 
It's my belief that understanding the roots of our practices can help us to deepen our understanding of, and  connection to, what we do now. I believe that seeing how magick was practiced in the past, and exploring the works of historical magicians and scholars, can also open new doors for us.
 
I am not a reconstructionist, though, despite having respect for their methods.    I believe more in taking what works best from the past, bringing it in to alignment with the present, and carrying it in to the future.  Some of Crowley's own works seem to indicate that he had a similar stance, bringing older rituals, and remakings of older rituals, in to his own work.
 
This is naturally only my own approach, dwtw, ymmv.  😉 

Old Comment

A reference to certain magical formulae known to the scribe of this book. The purification of said rituals is in progress at this time, An V.
 

New Comment

(final paragraph)
.........
The Osirian Rituals inculcating self-sacrifice to an abstract ideal, mutilation to appease anex cathedramorality, fidelity to a priori formulae, etc. teach false and futile methods of acquiring false Knowledge; they must be 'cast away' or 'purged'. The Schools of Initiation must be reformed.
 
2:5  AL
 
 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Old Comment

A reference to certain magical formulae known to the scribe of this book. The purification of said rituals is in progress at this time, An V.
 

New Comment

(final paragraph)
.........
The Osirian Rituals inculcating self-sacrifice to an abstract ideal, mutilation to appease anex cathedramorality, fidelity to a priori formulae, etc. teach false and futile methods of acquiring false Knowledge; they must be 'cast away' or 'purged'. The Schools of Initiation must be reformed.
 
2:5  AL
 
 

perhaps a different or revised interpretation of Osiris Is A Black God?  😉 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
2:5  AL
 
 

perhaps a different or revised interpretation of Osiris Is A Black God?  😉 

The rest of the comments on the passage you quoted in the OP are worth reading. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

The rest of the comments on the passage you quoted in the OP are worth reading. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

and remember that those interpretations in that statement were not ones that I held myself. 

 

Also, I've read all of those before, and a few other commentaries by other people, except for the Scarlet Sisterhood one,but thank you for the cool resource, and for the chance to review them again. 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

The rest of the comments on the passage you quoted in the OP are worth reading. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

and remember that those interpretations in that statement were not ones that I held myself. 

 

Also, I've read all of those before, and a few other commentaries by other people, except for the Scarlet Sisterhood one,but thank you for the cool resource, and for the chance to review them again. 

So you're questioning the sanctity of the comments?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Please show me where I said anything implying that. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

So you're questioning the sanctity of the comments?

Posted by: @katrice

Please show me where I said anything implying that. 

I did not see, read, or hear where you questioned the sanity of someone else's musings. However, you did write that ...

Posted by: @katrice

... those interpretations in that statement were not ones that I held myself. 

This appears to be a recommendation for reading, but not an Imprimatur of sanity or sanctity. Your viewpoint is like other posters - in regard to AC. What a Genius ... but look at all this other stuff he got into.

Your words will be twisted. It's a by-product of the machine.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

Please show me where I said anything implying that. 

I just noticed  that I actually misread what you wrote, sorry. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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@david-dom-lemieux 

No problem.  It happens.   


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

 

 

 

I always thought that this photo of Crowley did not look like him. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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I have often examined the referenced pic. The first thing my brain does is focus on the animal skin and try to figure out if it's leopard or tiger, or cheetah or [synthetic - made in Turkey] fake. Mine was fake. Yeah, a fake leopard skin, like a little car blanket. I "used" it once. There was proof - that photo is now a  lost but not forgotten memorabilium.

The second dharana (just a few seconds of attention) is the incredible youth in the face. This was the early days, so he must have been ~25.

The third and fourth things zoom into perspective simultaneosly: There appears to be (really) heavy lipstick on the lips and ... said lips are curling up strongly on his right side; the mouth is twisted.

Than, after I process all that (each viewing), I wonder, Is that Crowley? Then I decide it is ... was, so your point is well-taken


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @katrice
Some may have noticed that I have an interest in esoteric history. 
 

History is important in providing an objective view of events, and often provides a means of weeding out false claims relating to religion. Many of the claims made about the stories of the Bible have been disproved or brought into question based on the actual history involved.

Thelema is not above some of the same criticisms, such as Aleister Crowley's belief that Aiwass is Satan, and that his worship is part of an ancient Sumerian tradition of the 'highest antiquity.' There is no link between the Sumerian language and the Semitic languages that evolved from the North and South Semitic scripts, and thus no link between the name Aiwaz and Sumeria. The Yezidi culture, who worship the angel Melek Tav, who is also known as Shaitan, and whom Crowley identified as Aiwaz, enter the historical record around the year 1200 CE, which is a far cry the highest antiquity claimed by Crowley. The only link between the Yezidi culture and Sumeria is they both occupied the same patch of ground thousands of years apart from one another.

Posted by: @katrice

But what is the point if the rituals of the old time are black and we are told to abrogate them? 

It would be rare indeed for someone to produce methods that are entirely original. Past models and methods are usually the basis for the new and improved, and for those reasons are of value in being studied.

Posted by: @katrice

Do such interests serve no purpose except as a distraction?

Only if they impede progress. Looking at Crowley's choices, he rarely deviated from what he learned from the Golden Dawn, which is problematic, particularly in the area of the English magical alphabet mentioned in verse II:55 of Liber Legis. Liber Trigrammaton was a minimalist effort at satisfying the requirements of the verse, but offers nothing in and of itself. Rather than attempt developing LT, Crowley chose to work in the area of traditional Qabalah, and offered no new insights into it, directing his students to traditional texts on the subject.

Posted by: @katrice

It's my belief that understanding the roots of our practices can help us to deepen our understanding of, and  connection to, what we do now.

Possibly, but again, not at the price of progress. Very few religions embrace change or dynamic evolution, and with Thelema being so bound up in the Judeo-Christian platform of the Golden Dawn, there has been no real progress forward within its mainstream.

Posted by: @katrice

I believe that seeing how magick was practiced in the past, and exploring the works of historical magicians and scholars, can also open new doors for us.

Everything should be on the table, if for no other reason than making a thorough study of the subject. The problem is in allowing the past to dictate the practices of the present, which is typically the case with most efforts tied to religion. Case in point, the claim made that the Hebrew alphabet is holy, while the English alphabet is a bastard. Both alphabets evolved by the same processes over a period of thousands of years. The attitude noted has been stood in the way of Thelema progressing beyond the limitations of the Qabalah.

One of the most interesting statements made by Aiwass through Rose Crowley, was for her husband to do things that were magically absurd, thus suggesting the laws governing the magical universe had changed, and require a completely new paradigm be formed; in that case, past magical practices could be worthless.

 

 

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

History ... often provides a means of weeding out false claims relating to [religion] ...

This is true, and not only in "religion." The falsities creep into the "history" of every realm: Wars, adventures, science, medicine, finance ... etc (to include all things). It's an olde trick. Back in China, B.C., the scholar-docs were known to copy other authors' works, appending their name to the text. Or worse, they would "adjust" the herbal formulae in ancient accepted texts, then "publish" the text as the real thing (with their "spin" built-in.

This is why we are advised to credit only that which lies within the realm of one's own experience. ALL the rest of it is part of our belief system, which can get really messed up.

Posted by: @herupakraath

Crowley's belief that Aiwass is Satan

Oh, yeah. This is the crux of the controversy about him and Satanism. He wrote it, "Aiwass is Satan," so he and we have to live with it. His written announcement was filled with obvious ifs, ands, or buts ...

"The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God. The Devil” is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes. This has led to so much confusion of thought that THE BEAST 666 has preferred to let names stand as they are, and to proclaim simply that ...

AIWAZ — the solar-phallic-hermetic “Lucifer” is
His own Holy Guardian Angel,
and “The Devil” SATAN
or HADIT
of our particular unit of the Starry Universe.

"This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade “Know Thyself!” and taught Initiation. He is “the Devil” of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection."

As if that was not enough, he also tells us that ...

"This “Devil” is called Satan or Shaitan, and regarded with horror by people who are ignorant of his formula, and, imagining themselves to be evil, accuse Nature herself of their own phantasmal crime. Satan is Saturn, Set, Abrasax, Adad, Adonis, Attis, Adam, Adonai, etc. The most serious charge against him is that he is the Sun in the South."

This whole matter is easily solved by contemplating the concept of the demiurge .

  • A Platonic subordinate deity who fashions the sensible world in the light of eternal ideas.
  • A Gnostic subordinate deity who is the creator of the material world.
  • One that is an autonomous creative force or decisive power.

Since this basic concept in our belief system comes down to ...

(1) There is a Devil,  or

(2) The Devil does not exist

The only [only] way this can be sorted out is for the individual aspirant to get a clear seated view from Kether. Anything less is speculation.

This does not mean that one must become an Ipsissimus. That would be the long-term goal. A clear view of Kether may be enjoyed by persons who meditate regularly (more or less) for twnty years (or so), or by insight derived from a near-death encounter (falling out of blimps, crashing your car in the Grand Canyon, visiting Ukrania, that sort of thing ... or through the medium of short-term biochemistry.

Hopefully, through one of these methods, or by some other means, anyone and everyone can get this duality behind them ... by accepting the fact that they are the demiurge in action.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @herupakraath

History is important in providing an objective view of events, and often provides a means of weeding out false claims relating to religion.  

 

Another aspect of the method of science, the aim of religion.

 

 

Thelema is not above some of the same criticisms,

Agreed, and I do consider such criticism important.   

It would be rare indeed for someone to produce methods that are entirely original. Past models and methods are usually the basis for the new and improved, and for those reasons are of value in being studied.

Very true, hence my comment about bringing the best of the past in to alignment with the present and carrying it in to the future.

 

Only if they impede progress. 

Exactly.  If it brings no benefits, no results, why do it?

 

Looking at Crowley's choices, 

Also agreed.  I've always viewed Thelema as a living, evolving tradition, as the Aeon itself also evolves in its manifestation. 

But examining the roots of what we work with can help with deepening our understanding and by extension strengthen out connections with them and allow us to work more fully and deeply with them.

Everything should be on the table, if for no other reason than making a thorough study of the subject. The problem is in allowing the past to dictate the practices of the present, which is typically the case with most efforts tied to religion. Case in point, the claim made that the Hebrew alphabet is holy, while the English alphabet is a bastard. Both alphabets evolved by the same processes over a period of thousands of years. The attitude noted has been stood in the way of Thelema progressing beyond the limitations of the Qabalah.

Also agreed.   The past has value, but this is the present, and a new Aeon, anything relevant from the past needs to be brought in to alignment with the world we live in now.  For me, this is just common sense, but I know that viewpoint is not universal.  

 

 


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fraterihsan
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Crowley has said much more things about Aiwass, the secret chiefs, the HGA. It should raise anyone's eyebrow when people want to exclusively quote his polemical rhetoric about Satan with exclusion to his other statements about Aiwass which both contradict taking his rhetoric about Satan literally. 

It's easier to deduce that he took his statements about Aiwass as "the God of the Yezidis" and "the God of the Sumerians" as more literal than his polemic with Satan.

Crowley believes in the existence of Aiwass but disbelieves in the existence of Satan. 

"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - Liber Legis 2:58
"To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss." - Liber Legis 3:62


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @herupakraath

History ... often provides a means of weeding out false claims relating to [religion] ...

This is true, and not only in "religion." The falsities creep into the "history" of every realm: Wars, adventures, science, medicine, finance ... etc (to include all things). It's an olde trick. Back in China, B.C., the scholar-docs

Posted by: @herupakraath

Crowley's belief that Aiwass is Satan

Oh, yeah. This is the crux of the controversy about him and Satanism. He wrote it, "Aiwass is Satan," so he and we have to live with it. His written announcement was filled with obvious ifs, ands, or buts ...

"The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God. The Devil” is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes. This has led to so much confusion of thought that THE BEAST 666 has preferred to let names stand as they are, and to proclaim simply that ...

AIWAZ — the solar-phallic-hermetic “Lucifer” is
His own Holy Guardian Angel,
and “The Devil” SATAN
or HADIT
of our particular unit of the Starry Universe.

"This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy ofs if that was not enough, he also tells us that ...   "This “Devil” is called Satan or Shaitan, and regarded with horror by people who are ignorant of his formula, and, imagining themselves to be evil, accuse Nature herself of their own phantasmal crime. Satan is Saturn, Set, Abrasax, Adad, Adonis, Attis, Adam, Adonai, etc. The most serious.........etc  1) There is a Devil,  or   (2) The Devil does not exist.....etc

Let's be practical about this, Crowley simply had a bad-boy self-image so yeah he stated that his essential self was <insert scary malevolent wicked deity of your choice (as long as it the traditional dreaded enemy of his own abusive hypocritical enemies, namely, Christians...who, ironically, were never really Christ-like anyway)..> 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @herupakraath

History is important in providing an objective view of events, and often provides a means of weeding out false claims relating to religion. Many of the claims made about the stories of the Bible have been disproved or brought into question based on the actual history involved.

Agreed.

Thelema is not above some of the same criticisms, such as Aleister Crowley's belief that Aiwass is Satan, and that his worship is part of an ancient Sumerian tradition of the 'highest antiquity.'

Why ignore the big elephant in the room? No real historian will judge the Thelemic canon by this totally arbitrary and Thelema-wise unimportant *belief* of Crowley, moreover one that he only stated for a brief period of time, for whatever reasons. The one big claim of the Thelemic "bible" is that it was delivered by a supernatural or praeterhuman being. Which, by the way, is probably the only claim that AC held consistently for his whole life. History might prove or disprove this claim one day, but - as anyone knows - there are doubts "based on the actual history involved." So far believing this origin story is like believing in the Christian God, and there will always be people who say this belief does not affect the contents and values of both books. Should you ever deliver your completely new system of magick (as promised), history will in the same way scrutinize your claims about Egyptian Masters visiting you, others will look at the value of your new magickal system.

Case in point, the claim made that the Hebrew alphabet is holy, while the English alphabet is a bastard.

Who would have thought you say that? An appalling claim indeed, right up there with that nothing ever good came out of Amarillo, Texas.

Of course, history is important, it shows connections and origins, errors and triumphs, it is highly interesting, but it is still always written by humans. And it rarely covers what illumination or gnosis or stuff like that IS.

One of the most interesting statements made by Aiwass through Rose Crowley, was for her husband to do things that were magically absurd

Could you be so nice and specify what statements exactly you mean (preferrably historically proven) that Aiwass made through Rose? I am at a loss here.

Thx.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

this totally arbitrary and Thelema-wise unimportant *belief* of Crowley, moreover one that he only stated for a brief period of time, for whatever reasons.

His reasons were built-in to the qualifiers that were included in his tentative, but decisive, statement(s) - these could keep the arbitrators bust for millennia.

I think the crux of the matter lies in the fact[?] that AC was writing/dictating from a realm of "no difference" between any one thing (God) and any other thing (Satan), and thereby he cameth to no hurt.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Of course, history is important, ... but it is still always written by humans.

Humans tend to put a spin on their researched writings.

 


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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @shiva

I think the crux of the matter lies in the fact[?] that AC was writing/dictating from a realm of "no difference" between any one thing (God) and any other thing (Satan), and thereby he cameth to no hurt.

Sure. One of my all-time favourite AC quotes remains: “I was in the death struggle with self: God and Satan fought for my soul those three long hours. God conquered — now I have only one doubt left — which of the twain was God?”

The historian only notes that he once equated the author ("dictator") of Liber L can be equated with Satan as part of some ancient Sumerian tradition. Different hostorians will find different meaning in why he did this (at least once).


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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Sure.

You say, "Sure," but there are those who have not solved the mystery of Janus.

If anyone (say you, me, or RTC)(et al) believes I(deep inside - from indelible childhood imprinting) in this God-Devil controversy, even though we have read and think we understand any non-dual concept, then (for you, me, RTC, et al) the Devil exists ... and we pee in our pants if he's mentioned, even as Lucifer, Satan, or BafometR. But we hold our water when Hadit is mentioned, or even the Jungian Id. 

 

NOTE: All these guys are the same thing.


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva I realize this topic is seven days old, but I was intrigued by Katrice's initial post about the history of the occult sciences.  Since the dawn of humanity, the magical arts were utilized in order to control the unseen forces in nature.  Animism was the norm, the idea that all material objects were infused with a life force is universal, and no where was this primal recognition of mysterious energy  more developed than in Ancient Egypt  "Ten measures of magic have come into the world.  Egypt received nine of them, the rest of the world, one measure" Talmud b Qid 46b." I would recommend to all interested parties, the book: The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian magic, by Robert Kriech Ritner, published by the Oriental Institute of the U. of Chicago.  It should be no wonder that the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn utilized Egyptian deities and ritual in their ceremonies (insofar as they imagined them to be).   The influence of Ancient Egyptian magic on Aleister Crowley and his teachings are very well known by adepts, and non-adepts alike.  The "Tree" of Magical knowledge is complex with many, many branches spanning thousands of years of theory and practice.


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Let's be practical about this, Crowley simply had a bad-boy self-image so yeah he stated that his essential self was  

 

Though Satan also serves as a symbol of antinomianism too, and adopting such an image can serve as a means of rebellion against, and separation from, mundane society.  Ultimately this can have initiatory use as a means of liberation, similar to the use of the panchamakara ritual in Hindu Tantra, or possibly also to the practices of the Cainite Gnostics,  though once it has served that purpose it has little practical use outside of personal aesthetic resonance.  

 

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Of course, history is important, it shows connections and origins, errors and triumphs, it is highly interesting, but it is still always written by humans. And it rarely covers what illumination or gnosis or stuff like that IS.

True enough, though Knowledge can lead to deeper Understanding, and, perhaps ideally, to Wisdom. 😉  

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Let's be practical about this, Crowley simply had a bad-boy self-image so yeah he stated that his essential self was  

 

Though Satan also serves as a symbol of antinomianism too, and adopting such an image can serve as a means of rebellion against, and separation from, mundane society.  Ultimately this can have initiatory use as a means of liberation, similar to the use of the panchamakara ritual in Hindu Tantra, or possibly also to the practices of the Cainite Gnostics,  though once it has served that purpose it has little practical use outside of personal aesthetic resonance.  

 

Is this a decent enough definition of Antinomianism; any view which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @toadstoolwe

no where was this primal recognition of mysterious energy  more developed than in Ancient Egypt 

I am a great fan of AEgypt. I maintain that the DNA-underpinning of the European/American spectrum is shown forth in these ancient Khem symbols and even deities. But then I asked folks of other DNAs, and I got answered with Hindu. So it's not universal ... but for me, the panoramic pantheon was laid out first by wanting (in adolescence) to become an EAEgyptian Archaeologist (A.'.A.'.), but declining, followed up by AC's version of AWgyptology, with quick resorting to Budge and other Khemites.

However, further dislocation from AEgypt, we find the Hindus having their own mysterious energy that far surpassed anything that followed. But then, you see, the conditions were different. That is, thought could manifest results more easily (without external gestures or instruments). This was the era (toward its end) in which the concept of the left hand path arose ... in related to those degraded beings who didn't just mentally create, but had to resort to [gasp] external objects to allow them to get their way.

The center of civilized civilization pulled out of India and went to Sumeria. The Sumers were still mental creators, but the left-handed external do-dads came into greater usage.

By the time civ central moved to AEgypt, the direct (mental) influencing of matter was pretty much not working (it's the denser density of matter that slows things down). So they had a hoop-d'doo with their magical concepts ... too bad they mostly revolved around where one would go after death. Well, everybody went to the Tuat. It's just that in that river-tunnel there's a chamber wher one gets eaten by an alligator-dog and turned into Shinola ... or ... one gets past Maat, Thoth, Anu, Hoor to greet Asar, who sends one on down the tunnel to exit "in the East" and rise like the Sun. This, of course, is the "Old Aeon" stuff that is sometimes spoken of, referred to, or laughed at.

We all know the Greeks took over after that - even moving into AEgypt itself. They founded democracy and many of our gov buildings look like Greek temples (sort of). This developed into Roman right-wing monarchy, but then slowly morphed into some form of democracy all over the place. Today, we are in a much denser realm than depicted by any era, above. We need tools to do almost anything. 

Every era rises to its highest point of "magic," but the spells vary with the density of the matrix.

 


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katrice
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@david-dom-lemieux

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Is this a decent enough definition of Antinomianism; any view which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms?

In essence.  Transgression against prevailing norms and conventions, or existing outside of them, would be the surface of it, and I've mentioned initiatory applications in the post you responded to.

 

But, to quote Lords of the Left Hand Path:

"Although beyond good and evil, this path requires the most rigorous of ethical
standards. These standards are based on understanding and not on blind
obedience to external authorities." 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @shiva

The center of civilized civilization pulled out of India and went to Sumeria.

Based on what evidence? The two oldest languages are Sumerian and Egyptian, both of which appear at virtually the same time in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva Everything you wrote is true.  Without going off the rails with Ancient AEgypt (I like your archaic spelling)  would it be too illogical to suggest that the Ancient Egyptians were of Indo-Aryan descent?  And that the pyramids and the Great Sphinx are far, far older than we imagine?  It is believed by scholars that the Sphinx was built by Khafre, and it was rescued from obscurity by Thutmose Iv, who in a dream was commanded by the gods to restore the Sphinx to it's former glory.  So the importance of dreams, another universal concept, is exercised.  (Pharoah's dream in the Book of  Genius, 41.  The oldest pyramid, a step pyramid was commissioned by King Djoser.  It is no doubt that the pyramids and temples serve as an earthly map of the constellations. Is Atlantis simply a Platonic allegory?  Or is there a racial memory that we all share of a unimaginable distant past?

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

In essence.  Transgression against prevailing norms and conventions, or existing outside of them,

But who dictated/dictates these 'norms and conventions' and why do they?  There have always been different classes of humans with their own particular conventions.   Take the example of human slavery which is ancient, even the (relatively recent) upstanding morally superior Victorian middle class generally didn't think it was so bad..... until a handful of reformers started to mobilise politically. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

But who dictated/dictates these 'norms and conventions' and why do they? 

It's called a "social process", david- everyone, all the time, by behaving and speaking, and not behaving and speaking, in various ways, maintains, and, also, often, subverts, and subtly and slowly changes, these "norms and conventions".

There is no "they" deciding these things.

There are large sections of libraries, and departments of universities, devoted to studying these things- they are called "sociology", "anthropology", "psychology", "history", "cultural studies", and a variety of other things.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

But who dictated/dictates these 'norms and conventions' and why do they? 

It's called a "social process", david- everyone, all the time, by behaving and speaking, and not behaving and speaking, in various ways, maintains, and, also, often, subverts, and subtly and slowly changes, these "norms and conventions".

There is no "they" deciding these things.

There are large sections of libraries, and departments of universities, devoted to studying these things- they are called "sociology", "anthropology", "psychology", "history", "cultural studies", and a variety of other things.

I used slavery as an example.  Maybe address that with regards to who decided/decides it's existence. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

But who dictated/dictates these 'norms and conventions' and why do they?  There have always been different classes of humans with their own particular conventions.  

I addition to Ignant's response,

What are the prevailing norms and conventions of any given society at any given time, especially those that are seen as limiting by the individual?  But also take in to account that the Path should liberate. Too many people descend in to mere contrarianism, which is just empty, mindless rebellion. Ideally, the Path is about freedom and liberation, and not just for the individual. 

 

 Take the example of human slavery which is ancient, even the (relatively recent) upstanding morally superior Victorian middle class generally didn't think it was so bad..... until a handful of reformers started to mobilise politically. 

You've given me a great, and non-obvious, example!  Something that shows a positive impact of going against social norms.   Abolitionists were viewed as evil, as extreme radicals, in some cases even seen as being aligned with Satan!  They were seen as going against the natural order of things. In their time and place  abolitionists were dangerous rebels against their prevailing society. But they fought for liberation. They were not LHP at all, but they serve as an interesting example of the positive application of antinomianism. 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @katrice

I addition to Ignant's response,

What are the prevailing norms and conventions of any given society at any given time, especially those that are seen as limiting by the individual?  But also take in to account that the Path should liberate. Too many people descend in to mere contrarianism, which is just empty, mindless rebellion. Ideally, the Path is about freedom and liberation, and not just for the individual. 

Oh I get it, you're talking about how an individual attains Gurdjieffian flexibility (in other words Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law) wherever they happen to be whether it be the Spahn ranch, a gulag or an English stately home..  The prevailing norms (and where they stem from) are therefore irrelevant.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Oh I get it, you're talking about how an individual attains Gurdjieffian flexibility (in other words Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law) wherever they happen to be whether it be the Spahn ranch, a gulag or an English stately home..  The prevailing norms (and where they stem from) are therefore irrelevant.  

 

Ideally, on an individual level, for full effectiveness one would transgress against beliefs one holds that one finds limiting in some manner, in order to overcome them. In that sense, the norms are relevant, there are just no universal norms that apply to everyone. Set and setting would determine relevance.  One would also go against those norms of society that one finds limiting as well.   Transgression can aid in developing one's self as an individual, and can be a powerful tool towards individuation.   One may even transgress against things one holds dear too, which I believe is what you are referring to here, in order to loosen their hold in order to become more flexible.    On a larger scale, transgression can also lead to changes in society, if enough people rebel against the same concept.  It could go viral, as it were, in a memetic sense.

I mentioned on another thread a while ago how Paul Huson's book Mastering Witchcraft includes an initiation ritual that is no more than reciting the Lord's Prayer backwards while visualizing lightning striking shackles off of one's wrists and ankles. A simple act of antinomianism, but for someone who is still trying to break Christianity's hold, it can be a surprisingly powerful experience.  

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @herupakraath

The two oldest languages are Sumerian and Egyptian

Um, written lingos (in Egypt) appeared circa 3300 BC, which interestingly coincided with the death of Krishna and the beginning of our Kali Yuga. So something big was going on in India before cuneiform and hieroglyphs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List

Oh, that rag. My sources come out of the Theosophical side of the game.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

would it be too illogical to suggest that the Ancient Egyptians were of Indo-Aryan descent? 

Suggest away. My Legend Book says Khem was a flourishing outpost of Atlantis. If you can make that fit in, I'll go along with the suggestion. How much do you pay for going along?

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

And that the pyramids and the Great Sphinx are far, far older than we imagine?

My imagination is flexible. I like the Manly P. Hall statement about water marks inside that indicate an age of 90,000 years. Back to Atlantis again.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Is Atlantis simply a Platonic allegory?

Allegory? Sure. That would explain all the pyramids and megaliths all around the world. It is obvious that there was (is) a "previous civilization" that liked to build big, in stone, with razor-cut surfaces. Plato's allegory might have been a novel, but it pointed at that previous arrangement.

Posted by: @toadstoolwe

Or is there a racial memory that we all share of a unimaginable distant past?

Yeah. But not everybody has the same memory because their ancestors all had different experiences. The current, scientifically and medically accepted, term is genetic memory. This is defined as "memory without sensory input." So, some folks have Khemish visions, while others see Hindu architecture and gods.

Posted by: @ignant666

There are large sections of libraries, and departments of universities, devoted to studying these things- they are called "sociology", "anthropology", "psychology", "history", "cultural studies", and a variety of other things.

Nah. That's too much work, eye-strain, and travel time. I'll just stick with History According to HPB, et al and what the angels tell me.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Maybe address that with regards to who decided/decides it's existence.

We don't know who was the first slave-master, but our ancestors were mostly all born into an already-existing culture where slavery was the norm. Nobody "decided," except that first guy (maybe it was a "she?"), and everybody else fell in line because that's the way things were.

Oh, yeah, things can change.


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toadstoolwe
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@shiva All your comments are appreciated.  I realize I am not really adding anything new or unique to the discussion concerning Ancient Egypt and some of the "myths" surrounding the architecture  and "sacred geometry" of the pyramids., etc.  I would point you to a very unique Egyptologist by the name of Dimitrios Trimijopulos, a linguist and philologist who  is challenging the established translations of Ancient Egyptian texts. He feels that we have been mislead by orthodox translations of Egyptian texts and they have misrepresented Pharaonic society. I had a very brief exchange with him.  He has absolutely no interest in the esoteric history of Egypt, he is a straight up materialist, but very interesting to read  If you are interested there is a series of papers published by him on the Academia website.

Aleister Crowley wrote an essay about Atlantis in Liber LI  "The Lost Continent"

 


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