This is a big joke.

Don't you get it? The rituals have been publickly posted in the mundane marketplace.

Several times in this thread, the theory has been put forward in defense of the "suppress the published info" / "avert thine gaze" policy, that the OTO initiations are only valid when experienced in wilful ignorance of the dramatic "surprises" which have been a matter of public record since the 1960s, when the scripts were bequeathed to the Warburg institute, or 1973, when Francis King published them all in a now-legendary volume, or Koenig's 1994 German language publication (of which a forthcoming 2011 reprint is pending! very exciting).

But, if true, this principle invalidates the OTO as an initiatory body since neither its founder (Reuss) nor the bloke he kicked out (Crowley) nor still both of the latter's appointed, Caliphate-canonical successors (Germer, McMurtry) experienced all the initiations. So either the principle is unsound, or the entire raison d'etre of the Order is.

Like it or not, the O.T.O. Initiation rituals are not a secret, and never will be. Ever.

They were published by Francis King in 1973, years before the current holders of the "trademark" O.T.O. incorporated the "brand" and registered it as theirs, which, obviously, it wasn't, until they did so, at which point it was simply a brand to which they now held exclusive legal commercial property rights.

The OTO initiation rituals are part of the body of Crowley's work and open to discussion within reason, discretion, and with respect to the wishes of the forum owner, as he has already made plain earlier in this thread.

The OTO has attempted to block the sale of legally published books containing the rituals - including second-hand copies (!) which have been available for decades, and for years before their incorporation. This includes blocking sales on Ebay, and the attempted (failed) strong arming of a prominent occult bookseller in the UK.

The OTO members are being myopic and disingenuous when they claim on one hand the rituals must be experienced and the rites are just words on paper to the uninitiated, while on the other hand claiming that exposure to the rites online will somehow weaken their impact and efficacy.

You're saying that, despite things being publicly available since before most Thelemites were born, they should be ignored, so it will make them "secret" again, so the "magick" will "work". Even though it's unnecessary, if Germer, Crowley, Reuss, Grant, and McMurtry (and Breeze for that matter) are anything to go by.

A real "secret" does not require wilful ignorance in order to exist !

Or does it?
😯

93

einDoppelganger, I have never implied that by initiations I mean outer ceremonies, formalities or even paperwork. I clearly expressed in this thread that the real Initiation takes place in the Heart of the Aspirant. In that context I wholeheartedly agree with the principles outlined in Liber XXXIII.

My analogy was in regards to the comments relating to the ceremonies and magickal approach to them. Do you really know how they work? Have you passed through them? If not, I don't see any points in discussing their content here. A mere intellectual masturbation doesn't interest me much. Based on a number of my posts you may note that being busy with my own Work I don't have much time to enjoy similar discussions in the way of contributing to them. I felt obliged to respond and raise my voice in that particular thread because it dealt with the journal I'm involved in. I guess that other people here may prefer to discuss different facets and that's fine, however my job ends here. I'll be more than happy to respond to any questions in regards to the article itself.

93 93/93
Krzysztof

I have a greatest respect for Kenneth Grant's writings and his system of magick, but here I beg to differ: It is far from truth that "only Grant appears to have bothered implementing ... Crowley's envisioned remodelling of the structure" of OTO. Grant has on several occasions suggested something of the sort himself, justifying his essentially new and different Order with very little similarity to OTO by a selective quote from Crowley's letter to Germer. Crowley does mention the subject of complete remodelling of the Order but when he specifies what he means by that, it is obvious that Grant never bothered implementing it. The full relevant quote is as follows (my source is "Agape," 9. 3-4, February 2008):

"I shall appoint you my successor as O.H.O. but on special terms. It is quite clear to me that a complete change in the structure of the Order, and in its methods, is necessary. The Secret is the basis, and you must select the proper people. You can take outsiders; but everyone who has anything to do with us at all must make a formal renunciation of ideas denounced in AL 49-56. Cap III. Then comes the New Social Order, on the lines laid down in the books LII, CI, CLXI and CXCIV (See Equinox III.1. pp 195-246) and same in Eqx III.2.—this volume is not under my hand at the moment. The broad base of public association is the Gnostic Mass."

It should be obvious to anyone who knows even a tiny bit about Grant's Order that he did not bother about the social structure given in the specified documents and that the Gnostic Mass did not play any part in it. To avoid misunderstanding: my post only rebukes the (often stated in one form or another) remark regarding putative Grant's remodelling of the OTO based on Crowley's late idea about the structure of the Order. It is not a comment on the value of either Grant or his Order.

The Oaths are made [before] the Grand Master Bathomet [sic]. WTF is this "God" stuff? In the masonic 1st degree, when asked, "In whom do you place your trust?" the answer is "In God!" - In OTO, the answer is "In myself." Now you're going to drag "God" into this? This is the Universal Joke of the Week 😆

AC was incensed or otherwise astounded that one of the GD secrets was a list of Hebrew letters from the British Museum. He held such nonsense in scorn.

The same thing applies today. The IX* material is easily and openly found in ancient Taoist publications, and Germer said he read them in public German print before (BEFORE) he met Crowley. What secrets? How can a sane person be expected to keep a secret that everyone else knows?

I don't consider it intellectual masturbation when I ask a representative of the OTO to classify, clarify, and defend their statements or the position of their fellow brothers and sisters. Based on what you are saying its immaterial if I passed through the ceremonies or not because they are merely scripts. The real initiation is in the heart , a point with which I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately it seems the majority of your brothers and sisters seem to think the initiation rituals will mean nothing to one who has not "passed through them." They also seem to think that the discussion of the scripts will somehow impede there effectiveness.... I imaging they also avoid stepping on pregnant women's shadows.

It seems they misunderstand the point. Would it not be that the initiations would mean nothing to someone who was not ready to understand them intellectually as well as spiritually despite their affiliation ( or lack thereof)

sounds like all the more reason for them to be read and digested.

Its been a pleasure having your input here. Thank you for being in this thread.

Yes, I do. Yes, I have, thank you.

Unlike most of the earlier recipients, I at least got to receive the three Thelemic degrees in sequential order (OTO I*, V*, IX*) and then I had to go back and fill in the blanks (which made NO difference).

Doppel may or may not have passed through them. Who cares? It's all a Grand Joke; this whole thread is even Grander, especially when people step up and proclaim special insight arising from an external event.

Thanks for these details; it is Grant himself who says that he did this, somewhere in the Trilogies. I forget where. Is this really the document which Grant used as his basis for remodelling his branch of the OTO back in the day?

By way of possible explanation for these features, the lack of artificial society of the kind Crowley wrote about seems to be an aspect of Grant's synthesis in his Branch of the OTO with anti-social principles of the AA, as alluded to earlier in this thread. Likewise, the absence of Gnostic Mass might be explained by his superior knowledge and experience of Tantra, as compared to that of Crowley. But that's just conjecture on my part.

Shiva, you say that "...especially when people step up and proclaim special insight arising from an external event".

I respect you, you have trodden the path and you have taken the initiations (this I know from our discussions on previous threads) and I enjoy reading your views. If we disagree at the end of the day, which we do in some regards, then you still get my respect because you have an opinion which you can back up with experience so please take my comments in this light as I am not endeavouring to be litigious. At the end of the day our disagreement only exists on one level anyway.

All of us, whether we be in the Path or otherwise obtain insight from external events. Whether those events be a marriage, birth, death, divorce etc. These events function as an initiation in themselves and give all of humanity further insights into their lives. I don't consider myself to have obtained any insight which makes me special as compared to my fellow men, whether they be on the Path or otherwise. All I am saying is that I personally have learnt something from the initiations in the O.T.O. and other initiations which I have taken in other systems.

In any initiation system my opinion is that one has to take something and have it hewn into the very being of their person and to use the language of the Holy Books, it is wrought into the "living rock". They have to take the words and seal them into their heart as the flame of their aspiration. Each man chooses his own words, some may choose the Koran, some may choose the Holy Books, some may choose a combination of any words whatsoever, including initiation ceremonies. This way the instrument which is the "living rock" is gradually changed from an unpolished and imperfect instrument and into a "beautiful instrument" tuned to the rapture of the Beloved (ref Liber 7, Ch 7). This way one turns words on a piece of paper into something which is living.

All I am saying is that if members on this forum want to discuss the initiation rituals of any particular organisation then there is no reason why they should not do so, but what I am suggesting is that it is done in a proper way on a thread where people may not stumble on the discussions. I am also suggesting that instead of just discussing the words we discuss the process. As an example, take the system of initiation of the A:.A:.. We can discuss the exact words of the initiation rituals time and time over. For example, we can discuss the alchemical phase of putrefaction in detail and how this relates to the start of the journey in the A:.A:. and we can relate this to MMM, 671 etc. but what is far more interesting is speaking about experience rather than intellectual perspectives, for example, the physcial process which one goes through during this stage. That is not something which you can get from books or words, this is only discovered by each individual when they take matter and transform it within their own living rock. That is initiation.

If someone has worked with the first degree initiation from publically available resources and has attained some form of experience from working with it then I have no objection in discussing experiences. Here is a good example, lets take 671 in its publically available form of Pyramidos. Lets assume that this was a secret initiation ritual. If I start going on the forums writing things such as "Under the Shadows of the Wings" then whats the point? If instead I work with these words and I have them hewn into my living being and then I discuss them then that is another matter entirely. Then I have a "cornerstone" (to again use the language of the Holy Books) on which to base my analysis. I can then post an analysis online with my experience and so this adds more value than simply pasting words from publically available resources.

There's a great deal of evidence for the OTO as an extremely potent magickal order. There is also evidence that McMurtry was an Inititiate.

I am not a member of the OTO but am grateful for their work. Why should a representative from the OTO contribute to a thread where there's so much hostility and disrespect directed at the OTO?

The implication that Crowley was not an Initiate because he didn't jump through particular hoops shows a blindly literal minded, complete lack of Understanding of the process.

The posters attacking the OTO obviously have no clue of how to invoke an Intelligence greater than their own. They sound like petulant children who have nothing to offer but arrogant opinion. If I was a member of the OTO I wouldn't dirty my hands with this shit.

There are pros and cons to the OTO, Scott, as I see it. This is not vacillation on my part, it is merely my best objective observation. Things are rarely black and white. I have no dog in this race, I have never been a member of the OTO, but I have years of experience in knowing, intimately in many cases, those who do, or did. Your reaction to any mention of the OTO in these forums is always, at best, a snide remark. This grows conspicuous over time, it is a sore spot that never heals, which is often nature's way of telling us that something's wrong - with us, not with the outwardly apparent cause of the irritation. An involuntary allergic reaction to anything related to the OTO bears looking into. It is, at best, an imbalanced perspective, imo, and is likely an obsession. But this is your problem, not mine, so I will leave you with it. I suggest that that get over it and move on.

The only relevant point here is whether OTO members should be able to visit this site without viewing proprietary material from OTO rituals. Paul has indicated that these materials will not be displayed here.

zardoz, I find it extraordinary that you descend to the language of the gutter. I don't see anything in this thread to justify the heat of your remark. Please calm down.

And now for a reminder, the original post...

It seems to me like this thread was designed either a) to begin a discussion on initiation effectiveness, since I assume the treatise argues how after the 2nd degree initiation the aspirant isn't fit for an officer position, b) or as a rhetoric for

I wouldn't mind finding a .pdf about it. 2nd degree leaders? I'm glad someone with some influence knows better than to allow 2nd degree leaders (exceptions excluded). Of course, the other side of that argument is on Atzulut's end, where he obviously is arguing for the exceptions. This brings us too... initiation effectiveness, which required 2 pages of discussing just what we are allowed to discuss.

I'd say this thread is right on track.

Grow up, Michael.

This would also have to include the assumption that all of the current officers did not go through the system themselves, and therefore have nothing to 'transmit'. It could be a new O.T.O., with a viable Link, provided those in question actually made said Link. Sure, they wouldn't have the "Link transmitted from Crowley", but it really doesn't matter. The Link is the Link. The question then would be, do the leaders at the present time have a Link or are they just regurgitating old words attributing meaning to the symbols as best they know how?

They never were, either. Even the infamous IX 'secret' has been part of open Daoist doctrine and practice for thousands of years.

Well of course. It's the Catholicism syndrome. The only way you control what people think is to control what they see, read, and hear. Careful, they may in time "lose" a page from Liber AL and reprint the book without it. Then, they will say the lines don't make sense without the missing page, and edit the words so that the pages flow seemlessly together again, all for some "child" to show up in another 1500 years and go "wtf is this shit", and have to fix humanity's mistakes all over again.

People like to shit on the spiritual wealth of a culture, even from within.

It's just a bunch of crap to keep people mesmerized so they work harder. I was given my a copy of my first initiation ritual "and he shall hold himself chaste for a week" a week before my first initiation as a study aid so that I would have some idea what the next period of my life would entail. Though I read over it countless times, as aforesaid, it did not stop my then Superior from having to say at one point, "Oh hell you are shaking. Don't be afraid, man." You can't fake shit like that, and if the ritual doesn't make things like that happen - if the ritual doesn't completely uproot the conscious mind of the aspirant and plant a new seed - then it is not initiation anyway, it's a "promotion". Good job, Charlie. You can wash dishes. Show up on Sunday and we'll promote you to the 3rd degree where you can clean toilets.

I see their O.T.O. and raise them an A:.A:. "Mystery is the Enemy of Truth."

It's all about marketing, but I'm sure you already know this, Noc.

Please allow me to reduce your lengthy proposition to this one line quote. You are correct. We are not in disagreement. I am indicating that some (some) folks amongst us are reciting the party line or expressing beliefs. That's why I made such a one-sided comment. What is the other side of the coin?

My entire lineage, from way-back-when through AA or OTO or Tibetan Empowerment, plus a few others, right up through today (at the end of which I doubt we shall disagree), is based on Transmission.

Transmission is a simple form of initiation. I call it "simple" because it's short (in time) with little or no psychodrama. It's Zap and its Shazam and it's the Bolt out of the Blue.

These transmissions are similar to those that I once received and delivered in Oriental Templar rites. Not everyone was capable of perceiving and/or transmitting the Light at the high point of ANY initiatory-type ceremony. At some point the can.'. finds himself or herself standing before the principal initiating officer, who causes the transmission through some designated act, usually touching the can.'. at a designated part of his or her anatomy, often with a magickal instrument. Stand and deliver.

.....

Sometimes it works; sometimes it seems to have little or no effect. There are various factors involved and suitable for discussion elsewhere (on the "variable favtors" thread - if there is one).

My point is, these external events can indeed be the real thing. Like my guru before me, I received my 0* & I* in the same evening. I was absolutely scared fecesless. Remember that great Tale from Inside Solar Lodge - Outside the Law?

"Within a few weeks, I received the 0° and the I° ... Strange thoughts came to trouble me when I retired to bed the evening after my initiation. I had been reading about initiation ceremonies and their effects, and I was disturbed that the traditional thunder and lightning had not manifested as one would expect in this case of a great event in the metaphysical world. My ego thus properly put in its place I drifted into sleep.

"At 2:15 AM the thunder awoke me. I walked out to the front yard to view the thunderstorm and watched as lightning struck again and again to the south, incidentally blowing up several huge gasoline storage tanks at the oil refinery in Long Beach." (c)2007

A guru or a grand master (or even Salah-ul-Din, the Sultan of Egypt) who has the wherewithal (the inherent capacity) to stand and deliver is capable of initiating a permanent change in consciousness in a chela or a candidate.

Whether it "works" in any given case is really dependent upon the circumstances of that given case. Initiation ceremonies are "experimental" only in that they don't work ALL THE TIME. Sometimes they don't work at all. Sometimes they knock your socks off.

Az, are you speaking of the OTO?

No, the topic is about initiation, is it not?

Should it specifically be about the OTO 2nd degree initiation? Because if so, I can go do one of those real quick and get back to you.

🙄

Quaint.

Let me help you out.

"I raced across the Sonoran desert at high speed only to run right into the arms of the law at Globe, Arizona. I was sentenced to five days in the cooler for not having a driver’s license. Well, when you’re in a hurry you can’t always remember everything.
My pistol and the Order’s file box with the secret documents and loose change were confiscated. During this jail time my fingerprints would be examined and my true identity ascertained. It is curious that there were no other charges - neither for speeding nor for possession of a firearm in the car.
As my identity was suspect, I was locked in a special cell with an orange lock that was reserved for federal prisoners and dangerous criminals. However, when the sixth day arrived I realized that I was being held overtime. The guards didn’t want to hear about it so I conspired by magickal means to get out of the cell through the mental construction of a talisman. It worked.
I then walked up to the front desk of the jail and explained to the policeman in charge that I had been sentenced to five days for driving without a driver’s license, but this was the sixth day.
The cop asked for my name and went to his files. After searching the files, he said, “I have no record of you even being here! Besides, the judge never sentences anyone to less than ten days. You’ll have to take it up with the chief when he comes in!“ Stranger and stranger, the mind-bending adventure continued.
“Well,“ I said, “I would like to look in my metal box that was taken from me. Do you have that?“ The cop pulled out the Order’s metal filing box from under the counter. “Is this it?“ he asked.
“Yes!“ I replied, and I opened the box. Inside were all the documents and coins. As I shuffled through the papers I realized that I was operating in a very strange space-time continuum and boldly stated, “I’ll just take this over here to find the paper I’m looking for!“ The policeman did not object.
I took the box outside. I simply walked out the back door! I then noticed that the seals on the envelopes of all the documents had been broken except for the VIII° and IX°, the two highest documents (containing the central secrets) in the collection. I then stood next to a trashcan and began to read the II° and III° papers (two grades that I had not yet formally received), and as I read I lit a match to the pages.
The situation I was in came clearly into focus as I read. This entire event was simply a real-life manifestation of an initiation ceremony. When I got to the part where the initiating officers say, “We swear to guard you in your ways!“ two Hispanic prisoners stepped up to me. “Those your papers?“ one asked. “Yes,“ I replied. Then one turned to watch for possible intruders and the other took the matches and helped me to burn the pages after I read them.
Once the papers were completely read and burned, my two “guards“ left and I found myself standing alone in the parking lot. I just picked up the metal box and ambled away."
- Inside Solar Lodge - Outside the Law (c) 2007

Beautiful story!

Sometimes it's just a ceremony in a temple or a tent. Sometimes it's a vision or something that takes place "in you heart." Sometimes the two coincide.

Let me make this abundantly clear for you Cam and anyone else curious.

I am allergic to hypocrisy, hubris, arrogance, and artificial structures of authority built by common men or women who exalt themselves and make themselves wealthy. I also loathe people and organizations who lack a sense of humor. The power structure of the OTO fits this criteria. Note I refer to the power structure - not the membership pe se.

This is what led me to go after you earlier in this thread with such gusto - You are not related to the OTO and yet you were being hypocritical and insincere by your remarks. Therefore I had the "allergic reaction" to which you refer.

I have also said before - in the very thread even, that I read, appreciate, and buy books by the OTO and her lodges. I happen to like many may OTO members in person and online.

My issue is with the cancerous structure which exudes arrogance, insincerity, and failure. When I see it, I chafe. I get the same reaction from any such organization in my life from Scientology, to the Church of Mormon, to Troy Southgate. I cannot abide watching a false history woven to support the financial goals of an American corporation masquerading as the Catholic Church (with tits and ass in moderate doses).

I'm sure you felt something similar in 1969 - its called idealism . I temper mine with humor - but I retain it. I'm sorry you do not.

Go take another playground potshot at Michael and watch the rest of your credibility dissolve.

Now we are clear.

Man, I love this book.... I wish it could be an independent film. As always Shiva, thanks for your insights.

Well since you put it that way, and after reviewing the O.T.O. 2* initiation rite, I think the following may suffice...

" U.S. NAVY ENLISTED OATH

When you become a member of the U.S. Navy, you will be sworn in by a commissioned officer. You will be asked to repeat the following oath: I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. I swear (or affirm) that I am fully aware and fully understand the conditions under which I am enlisting."

I don't suppose I should go into an explanation of how four years of standing watch for the military as a synonym for the degree ritual. If so guys, please do say so.

You want more? Let me know when I'm "qualified" to speak in this thread, please.

Scott, this sort of rhetoric was starting to get old 20 years ago. The OTO as we know it today is part of the Thelemic landscape, and will be for sometime to come. It is not going away anytime soon, even though you wish it would. I deal with the realities of my areas of interest, change what I can, but try to choose my battles wisely. If you want to ignore this part of our landscape, go right ahead, but endlessly shouting at them in vain gets to the point of interfering with the discourse of others, and it is at this point that I object to it as I have. It is not only pointless but is obstructive in this setting.

What?

This is like saying that "every time people mention the Catholic Church they talk about paedophilia and the Inquisition, I wish they'd just get over it".

You're suggesting that Scott has an "irrational" problem, and that I have a "bias", simply because we both have very, very low opinions of the OTO. The OTO people say I have a "prejudice".

But in both cases it's not true.

We have formed our opinions independently, many years ago, from direct experience and impartial observation. I understand it may be politically or socially inconvenient for you, "Camlion", to admit that people can be relentlessly critical of the OTO (as they often are) from impartial evaluation.

And impartial it is. I am not a member of any occult order, or group, or lodge, or coven, or whatever. I "don't have a horse in this race" either (you're involved in the Temple of Thelema or College of Thelema or something? please correct me if I'm wrong - is this related in any way whatsoever to the people connected with the American OTO?). I don't have any personal enemies in the OTO. I do not attack anybody personally, I simply critique the organisation in a way that I believe any sane person should critique anthing they are going to get involved in.

In your own words, I'd say it's time you "grew up", "got over it", and "moved on".

Which one? If you mean who I think you mean, then show it.

There is also evidence that McMurtry was an Inititiate.

Sure he was, Crowley accorded him the IX°. Without him having gone through the OTO "Initiation" rituals.

Which is the point being made.

I am not a member of the OTO but am grateful for their work. Why should a representative from the OTO contribute to a thread where there's so much hostility and disrespect directed at the OTO?

Because that's what the Typhonians have put up with for the last ten years with considerable grace (cf. Ian Rons' posts and the rest). It's called "reality".

There is no hostility (at least on my part), merely strong critique, which is not without reason. None of the points have been addressed yet, btw.

Instead of the pro-OTOers whining about being faced with an uncontrived non-artificial environment over which they have incomplete manipulative control, why don't they simply deal with the questions? At the moment, it looks like a very sorry situation indeed.

The implication that Crowley was not an Initiate because he didn't jump through particular hoops shows a blindly literal minded, complete lack of Understanding of the process.

Agreed - this is the point Scott was making, in response to the assertion by our friends here that the OTO initiations are "necessary" in some way. They're not, as we've shown repeatedly, and as you have agreed here.

The posters attacking the OTO obviously have no clue of how to invoke an Intelligence greater than their own.

LOL

At least we can do that!

N.

Az, my point was that that the two Initiatory systems are quite different in design and function, as conceived by Crowley, not that you were necessarily unqualified in any sense. He did conceive of a further system, but not much came of it. Others have done their own things with Crowley's systems, and without them.

THIS for emphasis

Zardoz: "The implication that Crowley was not an Initiate because he didn't jump through particular hoops shows a blindly literal minded, complete lack of Understanding of the process."

Nocifer: "Agreed - this is the point Scott was making, in response to the assertion by our friends here that the OTO initiations are "necessary" in some way. They're not, as we've shown repeatedly, and as you have agreed here."

Then that's the way it is, then?

Yes, it is. I was unaware that challenging or "hostile" [sic. - there is no hostility, merely unanswered questions] situations were the sort of thing that self-styled "Knight-monks of Thelema" ran away from.

Anyway, back to the topic...

Noctifer wrote:

Crowley broke his magical oath (and what modern legislation calls "intellectual property law") by publishing the Golden Dawn's rituals and other material, as an explicit aggressive act to "destroy" the order's mystique. But people still use it, and work it, in full knowledge of the contents. If an artificial "surprise" is the best thing in the ritual, it can't be particularly good.

Crowley was razing the Old Aeon version of the order so as to reconstruct a New Aeon version, as befitting his role as Logos of the Aeon. It was, clearly, a special case, part of his Duty. It it ridiculous to think thereby that he did not hold magical oaths as important. Maintaining one's oaths is a critical aspect of magical development, not to mention common decency.

most importantly, the rituals have all been in the public record, published, repeatedly, and legally, for DECADES now. It is absurd to insist on pretending they're "secret" or "surprising" when you can google for 1 minute and get a complete PDF of Koenig's book or Francis King's, or buy them in a shop or online.

My point was that if a person decides not to google or purchase the rituals, for they understand - rightly - that they would get more out of the initiation by going in blind, then they shouldn't run the risk of reading them in a public forum such as this.

As I said, it was Crowley himself who stated the surprise element was important. Clearly he intended the initiation content to be unknown before one went through them. Some may think they know better than Crowley, and would rather read them first, but others my wish to go through them as Crowley intended. THerefore, publishing them here is doing a disservice to such people.

einDoppelganger wrote:

The OTO cannot seem to decide if the publication of the rituals (they used to reconstruct the OTO) is a disservice to members, irrelevant, or possibly damaging to the efficacy of the rites

Or, so you seem to state on OTO's behalf... Again, it was Crowley himself who said that the efficacy was tainted by knowing the rites beforehand. Members in the past did require the use, at times, of King's book, or of foreknowledge of certain aspects of the rituals, or to use self-initiation, or to skip degrees, or whatever was required so as to get the whole system up and running again. But that does not change the fact that the rituals are best undergone blind, and in sequence, for the system to have as potent effects as may possibly be produced for a candidate.

you have to agree the OTO is entirely fraudulent from a magical perspective since not one of the reformers experienced all the degrees.

It is absurd to say that OTO is fraudulent for this reason. It is like saying that if a person who had never been the member of an army was made its chief, because of some emergency, then the entire army is a 'fraud'. Nonsense. Such a person would still have the full powers of that office, though it would be correct to say that they would make a better general had they gone right through the army system, beginning as a foot soldier. That is how such a system is supposed to work. The same with the OTO. Ideally one goes throgh every step, one after the other, as that is the best way to end up empowered and balanced sufficiently to receive and work the IX*. If someone requires the IX*, or any other, without going through all the previous steps, for the good of the Order as a whole, then in that case such a thing is done.

Will you answer my question. If magic is, as you said, experiential, especially as it pertains to the initiations; how can you justify the fact Germer, Grady, and others did not experience the initiation cycle? By your own logic that invalidates the magical efficacy of the OTO.

Again, poor logic. No initiation is necessary in and of itself, it is just dsirable to have attained one insight before another. If you think Crowley developed an entire system of initiation that is impotent, and devoted much of his life to promulgating it, then you understand little about Crowley.

In the A:.A:. we find a similar thing. A person can take the Oath of the Abyss and become a Magister Templi without going through all the earlier Grades, as Achad did. It is, however, undesirable, as without the preliminary work they will be greatly unprepared for that initiation. Does that invalidate the A:.A:. system too? No. But sometimes it is necessary for people to take higher degrees for the sake of the system as a whole.

No rituals have been published here so you have nothing to worry about. Paul was clear that they are not and will not be published on LAShTAL. Its hardly necessary as they are widely available everywhere else. We will, however, discuss them as part of Crowley's body of work. Please join in as you see fit.

It is absurd to say that OTO is fraudulent for this reason...

No initiation is necessary in and of itself....

Exactly! Have you been reading this thread or just leaping in to speak? My whole point with this statement of Socratic Irony or "Reductio ad absurdum" is that if the OTO members *in this very thread* who keep saying the initiations are worthless unless experienced, are correct, than than the system is broken because none of the founders experienced the full cycle. They are making that very absurd statement, I have been trying to point that out. You cannot have both sides of the coin. The point has already been made in this thread, very plainly, that the real interest is in protecting the artificial sense of the hermetic to justify more initiations and more dues. Its marketing not mystery.

My point is by arguing for the secret, sacred, and precious nature of the initiations and how they are merely "words on paper" out of context you hamstring your own stance.

You have been publishing aspects of the rituals here. And I am giving my opinion that to do so is a disservice to those who don't want to read them.

You keep warping comments to fit your own agenda... The comments on this thread, including mine own, have been that one cannot understand an initiation unless they have been through that initiation. One is free to simply read a ritual and warble on about what it might mean if they wish, but at the end of the day it is a fruitless exercise because they haven't experienced it as an initiation. Like I said before, it would be the same as having a discussion about the Oath of the Abyss when one wasn't a Magister Templi; one can opine all they like about what it might mean, but all they are talking about is a bunch of words, not an initiation.

It is a simple argument. I am puzzled at how you don't get it.

if the OTO members *in this very thread* who keep saying the initiations are worthless unless experienced, are correct, than than the system is broken because none of the founders experienced the full cycle

*sigh*. No. Again, that argument is ridiculous, as I pointed out in my previous post. Your statement would mean that the A:.A:. is also a broken system. And it ain't.

Say, I took that same oath, only it was under the auspices of the U.S. Army. Pro Patria Vigilans.

Er, um, Magister Templi comes after the Oath of the Abyss. One could take that oath (the Abysmal one) and not yet have reached Magister (in fact, Crowley recommended that approach for its acceleration properties).

You keep saying that and I keep replying that if that is the case then the reformed OTO is founded by people who just read the rituals and never understood them, BY YOUR OWN LOGIC!

If that is the case then how on earth to you justify Grady not having understood any of the initiations he performed... not having experienced them himself? Are you feigning misunderstanding here? Its getting quite tiresome to try and lead you to this oasis.

*sigh*. No. Again, that argument is ridiculous, as I pointed out in my previous post. Your statement would mean that the A:.A:. is also a broken system. And it ain't.

The IRONY here is that by your own statement "One is free to simply read a ritual and warble on about what it might mean if they wish, but at the end of the day it is a fruitless exercise because they haven't experienced it" undermines the concept that any order has continuity if a generation is not properly initiated.

You cannot on one hand claim to have a valid and functioning OTO (or AA) AND hold the belief that reading an initiation ritual is a fruitless exercise because "you haven't experienced it"

I don't care, change your mind and say the rituals can be understood, studied, and read by "non intitiates.". I am simply pointing out the fallacy in your own logic!

A fallacy, I might add, you are unsuccessfully trying to use to justify continuing the artificial obfuscation of widely available texts.

Oh, great. Another “let’s gang up on the OTO” thread. Well, I suppose we haven’t had one of those in a while.

While I’m not a member of any order and while I’ve certainly been critical of the OTO before on some points, I have to say that the criticism advanced in this thread is beyond bizarre.

It’s a fact that the initiation rituals were written – and rewritten – by regular ol’ people who, obviously, couldn’t have first gone through the rituals themselves because those rituals didn’t exist prior to being written. And the reformers didn’t go through all the rituals. And apparently not all of the current higher ups have gone through all the rituals.

So what?

What exactly do some of you people think these rituals are? You act as if they’re supposed to transmit some kind of ooky-spooky power to the candidates and that “breaking the chain” is going to rob the order of some kind of “magical potency,” as if the rituals are a chain letter.

The rituals are symbolic rites designed to impart lessons of the order and – so the theory goes, anyway – provide an impetus for the kinds of inner change that are what the word “initiation” actually signifies (since all initiation is, indeed, self-initiation, as Crowley consistently stated). What any given candidate gets out of these rituals is likely to be different for each candidate. I would suspect that a good chunk of people who undergo these rituals get little out of them, and I suspect this simply because – given human nature – most people probably aren’t willing to work at getting anything out of them. As I understand it, an individual is expected to study the ritual after undergoing it (the OTO has classes and study guides just for this purpose) and is encouraged to attend performances of the ritual again in the future.

In other words, the candidate is expected to do work after each rite: the ritual is supposed to be the beginning of a process, not the end. Part of that process is assimilating the experience of the ritual and studying it, including studying how its performance is supposed to affect the psychology of the candidate.

And this is where the whole "experience" and “element of surprise” comes in. A big part of the experience of these rituals – and thus a component in their interpretation – is the presence of surprises that are deliberately written into them. You might compare it to a “spoiler” in the movies. A sudden, shocking twist at the end of, say, The Sixth Sense not only makes a viewer reconsider the whole film, it produces a feeling of shock and confusion in the viewer that mirrors that of a character in the film. In other words, surprises – and the experience of undergoing a surprise – are an integral part of the way the film (or ritual) is put together and a part of properly interpreting them.

So it’s not as if reading the rituals ahead of time is going to stop some magic fairy dust from working, or something like that. It’s just that knowing what’s going to happen ahead of time is going to fundamentally change the experience – just like knowing the spoiler to The Sixth Sense before one’s first viewing will completely change the way one reacts to that film.

“Spoiling” a ritual for yourself isn’t going to make the rite “less effective” and it’s not going to interfere with some imaginary oogity-boogity magic. It’s just going to change the experience and make the initial experience of it different than the way it was intended to be. Going into the ritual “cold,” as it was intended to be done, with the surprises intact, can be argued to be an aid in one’s interpretation of it. [Whether it actually *is* a significantly useful aid or not is an entirely different question and separate from what I’m talking about here]

But just like there are some people who enjoy reading spoilers before they watch movies, so too are there some people who enjoy reading up on the rituals before they undergo them. And that’s fine. You don’t need to go into a ritual completely ignorant of it, any more than you need to have gone through the ritual yourself to do a proper job of running it as one of the officers. But some people probably prefer it.

So, in the interest of common courtesy – which I do sometimes care about, you know – just as I don’t go around casually revealing movie spoilers in my conversations, I wouldn’t take it upon myself to “spoil” elements of such ceremonies in public forums (this is precisely the point Paul was making with the analogy to discussions about Agatha Christie).

Now, whether the rites actually *do* impart any teachings that are worthwhile and whether the rites actually *do* provide an impetus for self-initiation is an entirely separate discussion, and – again, out of common courtesy – I really wouldn’t care to discuss the fine details of it in public without a big “spoiler warning” posted in the thread title.

And that’s really it. What in the world are some people talking about here? “Magical efficacy,” “fraudulent from a magical perspective,” “magically impotent”? We’re talking about people dressing up in costumes and doing some play-acting.

LARPing is one thing, but accusing the LARPers of not using real magic fairy dust? “Grow up” seems like too mild of a response to criticism like that.

Los, that is the point. You are under the impression I believe the rituals transmit a ooky-spooky power, I do not! and I have said as much reghading the MOE degrees trnsmitting nothing. Its not a criticisim of the degree system, I dont believe they were intended to transmit a gnosis.

I also believe in the ability of Grady, Grant, etc to be valid IXs without having experienced the degrees.

Nocifer, myself, and others are RESPONDING to the member' claims the initiation rituals cannot be understood if you are not an initiate. We find this bizarre as it then suggests the original OTO reformers couldn't have worked the rites. I don't believe that but I have been trying to express the fact you cannot have both;

1. the opinion the OTO initiation rituals are useless to a "non initiate" because they cannot understand the "words on paper" having not experienced the degree.

and at the same time believe

2. Any of Crowley or Grady's "batlefield IXs" are valid because they never experienced the initiations!

I think they are valid but I, unlike the oto members here, am not suggesting the initiation rituals are immaterial to one who has not gone through the linear system.

This is, as usual, much simpler than what is being made of it. Both the OTO members who have insisted on the exclusivity of the experience and their antagonists here are mistaken, at least in part. We cannot logically posit anything more to these experiences than we would to any other psycho-drama, but we need not posit anything more. On the other hand, if the psycho-drama is denied its intended effect, if the element of shock is removed, in this case, the psycho-drama is worthless. Further, if a precise sequence of shocks, and consequent reliefs, is deemed necessary to the plot, to spoil it is to spoil the overall intended effect of the author of the pageant.

Part of this problem is due to Shiva and Az and perhaps others confusing one Order with another, and part of it is due to deliberately disingenuous manipulation of the facts by others. And yes, part of it is due to the wagon-circling habit of the OTO. The fact is that a good play-write can write a perfectly good drama or comedy about love or hate without having experienced either of these himself. Subsequently, a well-trained actor can deliver an very effective performance without having any clue about the subject matter, although it no doubt helps if they do. Do we suppose that the author of this pageant expected every OTO initiator to have the same degree of initiation as himself? Of course not. The OTO, unlike the A.'.A.'., was intended to be relatively 'foolproof,' and therefore have a broader appeal and effectiveness, imo. No failed Probationers en masse, simply a greater MOE than above. Viola.

Now, as to the aforesaid "deliberately disingenuous manipulation of the facts by others," something more should probably be said. Noc is on the record a believing that "Do what thou wilt" means "Do what you want." Enough said. Scott is worth more consideration, imo. He is 'raging against the machine,' or 'the man,' or whatever. He seems to think that their are greedy bastards out there who are making a fortune off Initiations and selling Crowley books. This is untrue and naive, as anyone 'in the know' knows. On the contrary. the OTO is shamefully impoverished, imo. I think that Scott has had a bad experience, or that someone close to him has, with the OTO, or some such, or that his sympathies fall in that direction. In any case, I would like to inquire if Scott shares Noc's belief that "Do what thou wilt" means "Do what you want." Since he is demanding answers from so many others at this time, I kindly request an answer to this inquiry.

More generally, not that it is any of my business, but I believe that Michael and his peculiar Order have been squatting on Paul's website like parasites which are beginning to be obstructive to the purpose of the site. They are nice guys and everything, and everyone has their own agenda in life, as it should be, (true Will), but the deliberate exercise of a vendetta against the OTO limits the accessibility of the forums to those with a very thick skin, or to those with a great deal of experience online, which really should not be the criteria. Likewise, the OTO members who feel inclined to participate should do so without hesitation, and without helpful guidance from those of superior degree. These fools who are badgering the OTO presently are leaving great gaps in their logic, as even my friend Los has agreed with, and he is not at all a fan of the OTO routinely.

No, That is not my opinion cam and you attempt to interpret my opinion is misplaced, misguided, and irrelevant to the discussion. You have been inserting yourself into this conversation for pages now with nothing to actually add but "comments from the peanut gallery."

I would like to inquire if Scott shares Noc's belief that "Do what thou wilt" means "Do what you want."

What possible bearing does that have on any of this? Why are you trying to derail into some completely unrated semantic argument. You always do this Camlion.

You fumble at trying to redefine a debate like a teenage boy struggling with a bra strap.

More generally, not that it is any of my business, but I believe that Michael and his peculiar Order have been squatting on Paul's website like parasites which are beginning to be obstructive to the purpose of the site.

Dont try and drag Michael and the TO into this. Neither Noc or myself speak for the Typhonian Order. Here we see a shimmer of your agenda. You show a passionate obsession with Michael. You have already displayed unfounded rudeness to him in this (and other) threads. I will leave this be - but a cursory review of the "View all posts by Camlion" link and a review of the Bable box betrays a bit of a fixation.

Scott, 'Gnosis' is not transmitted in this case, but it might be triggered in the appropriate individuals. It might not in others. It is a 'shotgun' approach. In any event, since your initial mention of "the well' in this thread, your intent has been fairly clear, although you have been trying to cover your tracks since your adrenaline subsided. No one is fooled, unless they can't read.

Could you do me a favor and tell me if you share Noc's belief that "Do what thou wilt" means "Do what you want?"

What an absurd statement.. I fail to see how it is possible to "cover ones tracks" when the statement is public record in the thread - just like the II* initiation and the ordeal of the Well are in the public record. I foresee future discussions of the initiations as part of ACs body of work which are publicly available for reading...

Could you do me a favor and tell me if you share Noc's belief that "Do what thou wilt" means "Do what you want?"

no, because it has no bearing on this other than you trying to shift the debate into an area you feel more comfortable. An area which just happens to be completely unrelated.

Struggle with that bra Cam, maybe you will get lucky if you can - just - get - the - clasp...

Nice try, but:

As I have always said, (check it and see), "I consider[ed] Grant's work to be potentially supplemental to Crowley's, for those so inclined." I am reconsidering my generosity, however. 🙂

Cam, dear that is Nocifer pointing out how the other major Thelemic order engaged with relentless critique and debate directed at them in this public forum without whining for a thread lock rather than calmly answering critique.
It is not Nocifer "speaking on behalf" of the TO... I wont dignify this with more comments since you are grinding that agenda like a dog in heat on any available leg.

Reading comprehension much?

The meaning of 'Thelema' has no bearing in a discussion of Thelemic Orders? LOL Okay. Good morning, Scott.