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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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I should add, though, that I find the OTO Initiatory system to be sound in Thelemic theory, considering the broad scope of its intended application, although in practice that very scope may diminish the results on a percentile basis (imo).

http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_13.html


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4132
 
"Camlion" wrote:
Do you believe that the relevance of a topic to Aleister Crowley should be a consideration, at all, AEternitas?

The topic of this thread is initiation, and regardless of the tradition into which one is initiated, there are certain common features, such as making a connection with an informing current. In this respect it is not something unique to Thelema. Your response to AEternias is therefore supercilious.

This website is devoted to the life, work and legacy of Aleister Crowley. Considerations of the background out of which his work emerged, and with which it has common features, falls within the remit. That you have no interest in this is readily apparent. That you go further, and declare that such matters are irrelevant to this website, is ill-considered.

Crowley considered that a study of comparative religion and comparative mythology was of advantage. It's therefore surprising that you see it as as something that is not relevant to this website. Obviously, if you're not interested, then that's your own affair; others are.

The rest of this post is not addressed to you, Camlion, but an attempt to address the topic of the thread.

===================================================================

I've never undergone initiation conferred by group ceremony, and have no interest in it. However, I do have a number of friends within the OTO who have been members for many years, and who have clearly found the initiations effective. It's my own opinion that initiation arises in the course of the mystical and magical work undertaken, and that an initiation conferred in a group ceremony will kick-start the process.

I'd be interested to hear the views of others concerning initiation.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"amadan-De" wrote:
. If there is a genuine interest in exploring the subject of Initiation and not simply 'parrot' the writings and comments of AC then the discussion cannot and should not be restricted to only those interpretations of the materials that subscribers to the philosophy/symbol set/religion that he proposed accept.

Thank you, you have expressed my point in a much simpler and more concise manner than I was capable of.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

More from the HAG on the OTO Initiatory system in theory:

The main objects of the instruction were two. It was firstly necessary to explain the universe and the relations of human life therewith. Secondly, to instruct every man how best to adapt his life to the cosmos and to develop his faculties to the utmost advantage. I accordingly constructed a series or rituals, Minerval, Man, Magician, Master-Magician, Perfect Magician and Perfect Initiate, which should illustrate the course of human life in its largest philosophical aspect. I begin by showing the object of the pure soul, "One, individual and eternal", in determining to formulate itself consciously, or, as I may say, to understand itself.

It chooses to enter into relations with the solar system. It incarnates. I explain the significance of birth and the conditions established by the process. I next show how it may best carry out its object in the eucharist of life. It partakes, so to speak, of its own godhead in every action, but especially through the typical sacrament of marriage, understood as the voluntary union of itself with each element of its environment. I then proceed to the climax of its career in death and show how this sacrament both consecrates (or, rather, sets its seal upon) the previous procedure and gives a meaning thereto, just as the auditing of the account enables the merchant to see his year's transactions in perspective.

In the next ceremony I show how the individual, released by death from the obsession of personality, resumes relations with the truth of the universe. Reality bursts upon him in a blaze of adorable light; he is able to appreciate its splendour as he could not previously do, since his incarnation has enabled him to establish particular relations between the elements of eternity.

Finally, the cycle is closed by the reabsorption of all individuality into infinity. It ends in absolute annihilation which, as has been shown elsewhere in this book, may in reality be regarded either as an exact equivalent for all other terms soever, or (by postulating the category of time) as forming the starting point for new adventure of the same kind.

It will be clear from the above that the philosophical perfection of this system of initiation leaves nothing to be desired. We may write Q.E.D. The practical problem remains. We have already decided to incarnate, and our birth certificates are with our bankers. We do not have to worry about these matters, and we cannot alter them if we would; death, and what follows death, are equally certain, and equally able to take care of themselves. Our sole preoccupation is how best to make use of our lives.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 686
 
"2Aeternitas"" wrote:
Thank you, you have expressed my point in a much simpler and more concise manner than I was capable of.

Thank you. I consider it a group effort, we are all at a disadvantage when dealing with the ineffable after all. 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
The topic of this thread is initiation

Yes, I noted that when the title of the topic was changed.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

in the above example from posted by Cam, we see the essential mysteries that the rituals are intended to express, what the candidate is intended to experience. Such concepts can easily be used to arrange an experience that will express such ideas, whether by group or by individual, ritual or ordeal.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 686
 
"Camlion" wrote:
More from the HAG on the OTO Initiatory system in theory:

The main objects of the instruction were two. It was firstly necessary to explain the universe and the relations of human life therewith. Secondly, to instruct every man how best to adapt his life to the cosmos and to develop his faculties to the utmost advantage. I accordingly constructed a series or rituals, Minerval, Man, Magician, Master-Magician, Perfect Magician and Perfect Initiate, which should illustrate the course of human life in its largest philosophical aspect. I begin by showing the object of the pure soul, "One, individual and eternal", in determining to formulate itself consciously, or, as I may say, to understand itself.

It chooses to enter into relations with the solar system. It incarnates. I explain the significance of birth and the conditions established by the process. I next show how it may best carry out its object in the eucharist of life. It partakes, so to speak, of its own godhead in every action, but especially through the typical sacrament of marriage, understood as the voluntary union of itself with each element of its environment. I then proceed to the climax of its career in death and show how this sacrament both consecrates (or, rather, sets its seal upon) the previous procedure and gives a meaning thereto, just as the auditing of the account enables the merchant to see his year's transactions in perspective.

In the next ceremony I show how the individual, released by death from the obsession of personality, resumes relations with the truth of the universe. Reality bursts upon him in a blaze of adorable light; he is able to appreciate its splendour as he could not previously do, since his incarnation has enabled him to establish particular relations between the elements of eternity.

Finally, the cycle is closed by the reabsorption of all individuality into infinity. It ends in absolute annihilation which, as has been shown elsewhere in this book, may in reality be regarded either as an exact equivalent for all other terms soever, or (by postulating the category of time) as forming the starting point for new adventure of the same kind.

It will be clear from the above that the philosophical perfection of this system of initiation leaves nothing to be desired. We may write Q.E.D. The practical problem remains. We have already decided to incarnate, and our birth certificates are with our bankers. We do not have to worry about these matters, and we cannot alter them if we would; death, and what follows death, are equally certain, and equally able to take care of themselves. Our sole preoccupation is how best to make use of our lives.

I know that Camlion chooses not to see my posts but...
Quoting AC's opinion of a system that he created; valid starting point but open to the criticism of circularity and relies on a wealth of 'understood' information to leap over First Principles unexamined. Despite opinions to the contrary AC, for all his talents, did not create the system he developed from whole-cloth, some important areas already existed (the effects of shock on the endocrine system for example or the socially derived involuntary responses to certain terms/phrases - NLP, hello!) and these basic building blocks really need to be addressed rather than simply taking as read that AC's opinion is sufficient and fully informed in all relevant areas.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"amadan-De" wrote:
I know that Camlion chooses not to see my posts but...

Is it really any wonder...

"amadan-De" wrote:
Despite opinions to the contrary AC, for all his talents, did not create the system he developed from whole-cloth

He never claimed to have created the OTO system, and neither has anyone else claimed that he did, to my knowledge. He clamed to have revised it.

Do you really think that I have time to spend keeping you honest paragraph by paragraph though each of your posts?

Ops, was that impolite of me?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Well, the fact that he revised the system is clearly testament to the fact that he did not create the system. Camlion your attempts "keeping people" honest seem to do no more that point out the obvious. It also comes across as disingenuous in my opinion; I don't think keepiing anyone honest is yoour intention at all.
Oh snap, now I've gone and gotten myself involved in the nonsense.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"AEternitas" wrote:
Well, the fact that he revised the system is clearly testament to the fact that he did not create the system.

Yes, as I said, he didn't create the OTO system. This is well known. He never claimed to have done so, so there is no reason for a "testament to the fact that he did not create the system." 🙄


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 686
 
"Camlion" wrote:
Do you really think that I have time to spend keeping you honest paragraph by paragraph though each of your posts?
Ops, was that impolite of me?

You concentrate on your own honesty mate. (Clue - honest=/=agreeing with you)
Oh look, being impolite is so easy, and it obviously works for you, why on earth doesn't everyone do it? All the time. Endlessly.

"AEternitas" wrote:
..now I've gone and gotten myself involved in the nonsense.

Get out while you can! I'll cover your back, I'm already too far gone to be worth saving.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 686
 
"Camlion" wrote:
"AEternitas" wrote:
Well, the fact that he revised the system is clearly testament to the fact that he did not create the system.

Yes, as I said, he didn't create the OTO system. This is well known. He never claimed to have done so, so there is no reason for a "testament to the fact that he did not create the system." 🙄

At yet strangely the only authorities you ever refer to are AC and....you.
Proving conclusively that 2=0.

This rudeness lark might catch on. Did the Master (AC) have any thoughts on this I wonder?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 

All this bickering makes me want to say fuck Thelema and go Buddhist.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 686
 

Sorry Azidonis.
I seem to have p*ssed away the good of your earlier posts. More than a little 'room for improvement' in here (points at cranium) I'm afraid.

Will attempt to follow the instruction: "Live the life you love, Use a god you trust, And don't take it all too seriously" better.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 

Well, it's just a thing, but...

Some of you are "supposed" to be Adepts, some of you are "supposed" to be Masters... some of you are "supposed" to be representatives of this wonderful doctrine called Thelema. Some of you are "supposed" to be learning, working the system, and trying to get all you can out of it.

But half, maybe over half, of this thread is full of people airing their dirty laundry. It's not just annoying anymore, it's downright despicable. Aren't we all adults? If you all really have so many problems with each other, why talk to each other? If it's something that can be fixed, why not fix it in PMs? Instead, many of you have chosen to litter this thread, which had and still has great potential, with your little cock-fights.

Here's something - no one gives a damn, outside of yourselves, what you think about someone else here. You can make a point about it, and try to throw it in each others faces all you like, but at the of the day, you all just look like complete asses.

No one is right all the time. No one has all of the answers. That's part of the reason this is a "debate" forum, and not "ask a guru" or some other nonsense. I understand, "as brothers fight ye", but you are not fighting like brothers. You are disagreeing on little tiny points that ultimately make no difference, and they are only working to dim the vision of Thelema for casual readers.

I've been around the block a bit. I know many of you personally, through PMs and what-not. I know the rest of your from your posts. I know that ALL of you doing this bickering are better than what you have given this thread, for the most part. It's okay to disagree. It's okay to argue. It's not okay to sit and piss on someone's shoes just because you can get away with it.

I imagine that if we were all at the same coffee shop, one of two things would happen: 1) People would quickly "clique up" with who they get along with, and 2) a tension would run rampant on the room until it either broke out into a brawl, or people began leaving.

If all must be done well and with business way, then some of you bickering are surely not conducting business very well. It's appalling. If you have to get it out that bad, do it in PMs. If you really have to get it out in public, ask Paul to make a private forum called "Dirty Laundry" so you all can sit and bitch at each other like angry spouses until the cows come home, and those who don't want to be involved don't have to read such garbage! (Yet another plug for an "Ignore" feature, here too.) Or hell, create a Yahoo Group called "People from lashtal who just want to bitch at each other and try to downplay each others intellect and training".

If you don't have anything interesting to add to the thread, fucking stay out of it and watch.

I know this will be followed by 2 pages of replies and self-defenses... and for what? I really don't care what your defense is, or where the fingers are pointing. Just stop. Silence is golden. Some of you have very brilliant minds, and tons of real experience in the field to share. Why not share that instead of wondering what someone else is doing? If you think someone isn't "qualified" or any of that mess, do it the old fashioned way... wait until they post, then thrash it with good clean intellectual activity, minus the personal attacks. If you are right, be right, and get over it. If you are wrong, be wrong, accept it, and learn from it, but get over it.

Funny how all Crowley wanted to do was make Enlightenment more accessible to the modern world, and people can't even see past their own bullshit enough to understand what he was aiming for, let alone help him do it. It makes me sick.

I was once told by a very respected man, an Exempt Adept (7=4 A:.A:.) at the time, that "A magician does not dine with people he does not respect." Think about that one. It has more implications than just a simple meal.

Edit: P.S. Paul, I think you are aware that it would do absolutely no good to lock this thread, otherwise I think you would have done so. This mess has been adding up for months and spilling over into every decent thread we've had (even the Babble-On Box), and it is degrading the integrity of the site as a whole. Perhaps changing the title of this thread to "Rants and Moans" or "Complaints" would be a better idea, so they can dump all their junk here and myself and other readers can politely unsubscribe from the thread and stay out of it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Well said Az, the deterioration of this thread is tragic, and as a direct result of it at least two people, whose insights and experience i have learnt from and found of great interest and value have let me know they will be taking a step back from these forums. that is a great loss

there is so much that could be exchanged and shared on the subject of Initiation, and the OTO was such a massively important area of A.C.'s work and legacy, yet when it is mentioned in an open forum it invokes a collective Groan of 'here we go again' , due to the seeming inability of a few people to have a courteous, respectfull exchange of ideas, that would likely be of benefit and interest to a hell of a lot of people on here.

rather than moan about it myself though - heres a few thoughts on how the situation might actualy be improved particularly in relation to discussion relating to OTO.

Break the Topic into a number of threads relating to;

Aleister Crowleys OTO. ( keep it historical and based on the influence of the OTO on crowleys life and work and its place within his overall corpus of work.) have a strict guidline enforced to avoid taking the discussions beyond a dec. 1947 timeline.

have a spolier notice policy (or possibly a seperate thread.) where material quoted from or relating directly to initiations or originally private instructions is clearly flagged, so that people engaged in a course of initiation have a choice of whether to read it or not - rather than stumbing across material accidentally in unmarked threads.

(everybody knows that a very large amount of originally 'secret' and 'private' material on the initiation rituals and instructon papers is only a google seach away - great stuff and a fascinating read for those who want to, but a little tact and courtesy in this regard would make it much more likely to engage OTO members in meaningfull discussion and debate, slinging out material from initiations to people who have chosen to encounter it witihn the context of an active order, is not going to encourage engagment.)

a separate thread to discuss the initiations and instructions of OTO published by Francis King etc. for those who have read and studied them and have questions or ideas to share - has its virtues. They form a major part of Crolwey literary heritage and ultimately there is no point in pretending that this material is secret or private at present, yet we have to recognise that some people have chosen to take obligations of secrecy in relation to it - if its clearly flagged they can choose ot participate or not.

finally we could have a thread on 'Post Crowley OTO' for those brave souls who can still stomach an open forum discussion on the issue 🙂

I als reckon it would be worthwhile if people consider if a post is on topic and RELEVANT TO ALL THOSE WITH ACCESS TO THESE FORUMS, doubtless we all think our own posts are wonderfull, insightfull and witty, great, but if it is not contributing to the topic and your post relates to an individual or two rather than the general membership of this site then take it to PM.

how you have been misunderstood, or how much someone pisses you off are I am sure of vast importance to the inidividuals concerned - but for people interested in the actual substance of the thread they are a yawnfest, and an incentive to click elsewhere.

also, just for fun take a few minutes to listen to this;

http://blog.ted.com/2011/04/19/on-being-wrong-kathryn-schulz-on-ted-com/

it will happen to all of us sooner or later. 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I have seen a number of people wondering why members of the OTO do not comment on this site that much, I can only say that in my opinion when we do talk openly on sites like this one, about or membership in the OTO and our experiences, we are “shit on from a great height” usually about stuff we have no direct control over and/or we disagree with the negative assertions anyway.

Since this thread is about initiation.

In the last 20 years I have gone through many of the OTO initiations and have personally found them to be completely transformative in my life. I have also seen very positive results when assisting others through the degrees. I can also state categorically that it is far more effective if the candidate has no knowledge of what’s about to take place.
I also don’t care if non-initiates want to read the initiation rituals, we all know you can find them online, though they are not as accurate as people think.
I would rather people do not discuss the initiation rituals on a open forum for the reason stated above. Consider it a polite request, that I expect to have ignored anyway.
I have a very serious problem with OTO initiates who have given their oath to hold these rituals secret talking about them here for obvious “you gave your word” reasons.

So yes I am a complete unashamed OTO “fanboy”, but happy to try to contribute as long as I don’t get abused about something I love.

GK
I am in no way speaking for anyone aside from myself and my personal opinion.

Love/93


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4132
 

Food for thought, Azidonis and davyp93. Thanks.

Initiation is at the core of magick and mysticism, and thus a topic of interest to most. This thread has had some real nuggets amongst the more combative stuff, and I've found it very interesting.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4132
 
"gkraay" wrote:
I have seen a number of people wondering why members of the OTO do not comment on this site that much, I can only say that in my opinion when we do talk openly on sites like this one, about or membership in the OTO and our experiences, we are “shit on from a great height” usually about stuff we have no direct control over and/or we disagree with the negative assertions anyway.

Since this thread is about initiation.

In the last 20 years I have gone through many of the OTO initiations and have personally found them to be completely transformative in my life. I have also seen very positive results when assisting others through the degrees. I can also state categorically that it is far more effective if the candidate has no knowledge of what’s about to take place.
I also don’t care if non-initiates want to read the initiation rituals, we all know you can find them online, though they are not as accurate as people think.
I would rather people do not discuss the initiation rituals on a open forum for the reason stated above. Consider it a polite request, that I expect to have ignored anyway.
I have a very serious problem with OTO initiates who have given their oath to hold these rituals secret talking about them here for obvious “you gave your word” reasons.

So yes I am a complete unashamed OTO “fanboy”, but happy to try to contribute as long as I don’t get abused about something I love.

GK
I am in no way speaking for anyone aside from myself and my personal opinion.

Love/93

Your sentiments are appreciated, gkraay, and I'm sure that your sensibilities will be respected in future. I'm sure that many of us look forward to further contributions from you.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"davyp93" wrote:
also, just for fun take a few minutes to listen to this;

http://blog.ted.com/2011/04/19/on-being-wrong-kathryn-schulz-on-ted-com/

it will happen to all of us sooner or later. 🙂

Love this video, absolutely love it!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"gkraay" wrote:
I would rather people do not discuss the initiation rituals on a open forum for the reason stated above. Consider it a polite request, that I expect to have ignored anyway.
I have a very serious problem with OTO initiates who have given their oath to hold these rituals secret talking about them here for obvious “you gave your word” reasons.

Cheers for sharing your experience gkraay, i am sure it would be echoed by many on here. if i find the time one of these days i might share some of my own adventures the weird and wonderfull initiatory traditions of Thelema. 🙂

it is of course entirley understandable that you would prefer not to have your Orders rituals discussed in an open forum like this, however given that this material has long been available to people who arent members of OTO, its discussion is likley to continue, however, as i suggested earlier, i think it should do so only in threads whihc are marked with a clear spoiler notice, so people who dont want to access or discuss this material can easily avoid it.

also, it is understandable that you feel people should maintain their oaths, and how someone keeps their word on such matters can be a sign of their level of integrity, however it might be worth noting Caliph Grady Mc Murtys approach to this dillemma, which he addressed in the essay 'Karls Karma'

"When Francis King published The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O., I was so offended that at first I refused to have a copy. Later I would obtain one for research purposes. In this instance, it serves a purpose. When you take an Initiatory degree, you take oaths not to reveal certain information that has been passed on to you. Ordinarily I could not discuss this. However I can quote from a book that has been published, and on page 44 of F. King’s Secret Rituals of the O.T.O. he quotes from the Minerval ceremony.." (emphasis added)

the full article is here; http://www.luminist.org/archives/karls_karma.htm

(perhaps it should carry a spoiler warning for quoting one line of Kings publication of the Minerval Ceremony? Also I am not sure if Gradys position is also held by the current leadership of OTO?)


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"gkraay" wrote:
I have seen a number of people wondering why members of the OTO do not comment on this site that much, I can only say that in my opinion when we do talk openly on sites like this one, about or membership in the OTO and our experiences, we are “shit on from a great height” usually about stuff we have no direct control over and/or we disagree with the negative assertions anyway.

Since this thread is about initiation.

In the last 20 years I have gone through many of the OTO initiations and have personally found them to be completely transformative in my life. I have also seen very positive results when assisting others through the degrees. I can also state categorically that it is far more effective if the candidate has no knowledge of what’s about to take place.
I also don’t care if non-initiates want to read the initiation rituals, we all know you can find them online, though they are not as accurate as people think.
I would rather people do not discuss the initiation rituals on a open forum for the reason stated above. Consider it a polite request, that I expect to have ignored anyway.
I have a very serious problem with OTO initiates who have given their oath to hold these rituals secret talking about them here for obvious “you gave your word” reasons.

So yes I am a complete unashamed OTO “fanboy”, but happy to try to contribute as long as I don’t get abused about something I love.

GK
I am in no way speaking for anyone aside from myself and my personal opinion.

Love/93

Thank you for the insight, GK.

This is a bit off-topic, but what the hell...

When I first began learning about Thelema, I met quite a few wonderful people. One of those people was around at the time all of the O.T.O. court controversy was going on, and that person will remain nameless. This person however, filled me in on many things about the O.T.O., some of which really didn't sit well.

So I began to do research. My young 18 year old mind (this was in early 1999) found Koenig's site. And it told me about the copyright battle, etc. ad nauseum. In short, I learned about as much negative O.T.O. as I could, though not on purpose. I learned some positives, and that was cool. But all of this stuff was on the internet and books, and what sort of experience is that, anyway?

In 2,000, I moved up to Detroit, Michigan, where I stayed for two weeks in a Profess House of A:.A:., and then moved in with a roommate, a fellow Thelemite. I was there about two years. During that two years, I met another Thelemite, who was working to start an O.T.O. Camp (Camp is the smallest, right?), and it had about 4 or 6 members, I don't remember. Anyway, it was a small group, and she invited me to a meeting one night. The main discussion of the meeting was on Osho, and meditation basics. I remember thinking how cool it was that there were other people, besides just the few Thelemites I had met, that were actually interested in magick and mysticism. I was about 20 years old at this point, and growing up in the Bible Belt my contact with such people was very limited. No, they were not all Adepts, but they were all helpful, all of them willing to learn, and all of them willing to work for the betterment of themselves and their little Camp, or Oasis, or whatever it was called. I have learned since then that the Detroit establishment has grown into a Oasis, or Lodge, or whatever, and it only seems fitting to assume that it was because of the dedication of these few people.

Early this year, I visited the Sekhet-Maat Lodge for the Feast of the Equinox, and Dr. David Shoemaker's speech. We made our reservations and the long drive, but we didn't know anyone there. When we walked into the building, we were met with the "Who the hell is this" stare, but briefly. I walked up to the first person I saw, and said, "Do what thou wilt". All the stares turned into welcoming smiles, and before we knew it, we were a part of the party and festivities. We had a wonderful time, and were devastated at the news of the fire. I told the Lodgemaster (is that the title?), that what they had going there was really great. They had taken an old building, rented two spaces in it, and made one space into a large gathering room with an office in the back, a kitchen, and a bathroom. The other space was a fully dedicated temple. No, these people were not rich. They simply got together, busted their asses, and with some blood and sweat turned an ordinary building into a sacred place. At the Feast, we all said Will, we laughed with (not at) the guy who got the time wrong. He said it has been X years, but really was Y. The rituals and readings of the Book were splendid. No, they were not perfect, but they were honest attempts, and who could ask for more? Sure, someone could critique the performances, but when's the last time you tried sitting in Asana in a dimly lit room in front of about what 30-40 people, reciting Liber AL virtually from memory, with minimal mistakes, and carrying such conviction and feeling so as to enflame the entire audience?

All I'm saying is, regardless of copyright laws and prejudices and what may or may not go on "at the top", which really isn't the business of most of us anyway, these people, these Thelemites, do work hard in order to grow as human beings.

Thelemites come from all walks of life, you know. Not everyone has the same upbringing, or experiences, that lead them to Thelema. For some people it just sort of happens. Some people search long and hard for Thelema, and once they find it their lives turn completely around. There's a beauty in this system that people forget about, with all of their debating and fact-mongering. There's a beauty that can unite people, not under one single banner per se, but unite people each under their own banner.

I would rather have 10 managers working for me than 10 lazy little shits just wanting their paychecks. Sure, the managers will have their little squabbles, but you know they will get work done. At the end of the day, Thelema is about personal power, personal responsibility. It's about how to manage your own life, and how to assist others if they need help in managing theirs. It's not about who can quote the most Crowley, or who can perform the best ritual, or who can sit in meditation the longest. It's about people who care about themselves and their lives, and want to make it the best they can, for the benefit of themselves and everyone around them.

I'm sure, somewhere, that the O.T.O. initiations help facilitate that growth and change in people. If they didn't the order, yes the Caliphate order, would not have survived as it has. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Could it use some updates and revisions since Crowley's time? Maybe, but that's not for anyone to decide but the people who make those decisions for the O.T.O.

The next time you guys want to get together and start badgering an idea, cause that's what it is really, your idea of the O.T.O. based upon whatever book/internet knowledge you may have, sit and think about what the O.T.O. means to so many people. It's not just some bullshit street gang, it's not a movement like the Church, really. It's a veritable melting pot of application and potential, and some people really work hard and dedicate their lives to helping their local lodges and what-not improve, which helps the O.T.O. itself improve. These same people are real people. They have lives, go to work, have spouses and children, deal with the bad economy, etc. And they do it, they make it. They make life work for them. What more could you ask from anyone?

I know many people, and many groups, who do not have even half of the dignity and integrity that some of the O.T.O. members I have met.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5803
 
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
This thread has had some real nuggets amongst the more combative stuff, and I've found it very interesting.

Just like real life, isn't it?


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 316
 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

For all of my life I have been guided by what I call "that little voice". In my youth I did not recognize it for what it is..but only now as I age can I look back and see it clearly and its influence. Only recently have I learned to trust in its direction. Once again I find myself here, unable to form the words. But I will try and I will let that that little voice be my guide. Whether it holds any relevance for anyone here, it does not matter one bit, for what matters most is what happens within our very own skulls. I can see now how that little voice led me as a young teenager to a bookshop called The Dawn of Light. It was the mid 70's and it was where The Book of the Law and The Little Essasies Towards Truth came into my hands for the first time. I went back a week later and bought a handful more. I read and I read and I could not understand, but I kept on reading until the words were etched across my mind. Now I can see the effect those words have had on my life and to this day nothing enflames my heart quite like Liber VII.
Three months into my 17th year I decided to practice control of speech. I chose not just one word but all the words that referred to myself in the first person..the toughest of which was "I". It was truly a test for the first month. I would cut light on the first slip ups, then I would use the forbidden words and say the hell with it and just take the medicine. Viewing that as a failure on reflection, I started to cut deeper..to the point of needing stiches. Finally after about a month I just stopped talking all together for the rest of that year. I spent my time alone in the woods as much as possible. As a seventeen year old still living with parents it was tough, they came close to commiting me I think. After that nothing was ever the same, especially "I".
In late 1978 I felt that I needed structure. I contacted the U.S. Army and the OTO in Nashville, Tenn. It is not my intention to belittle the OTO here but I got the impression that I was dealing with a bunch of complete raving lunatics. That little voice. Off I went to jump out of airplanes. I volunteered for SF and ended up working in spec ops until the early 90's when the sitting president decided that me and a whole bunch of other asses were not cutting the mustard. What I seen in those sixteen years...well..anyway Liber AL in a waterproof bag went with me all the way.
Initiation..the sight and form of the letters have always been a source of energy of sorts for me. The mystery. The wonder. The power of the way it looks. In my mind I have equated it with life..living life and viewing every event from the point of view that this experience or that holds a deeper meaning and has something to be learned from it. The lessons are not always clear, but they are always there, no matter how greatly I expand or infinitly small I contract. For me it has always been a matter of point of view.
As was stated earlier, everyones experiences are different. I have never known the candlelit and incense filled temple. I have looked within and at the starry night sky without and have seen they are the same.
The question now is, do I hit the button and post this mindless ramble? What the hell? I'm tired of talking to myself and it might just entertain someone?

Love is the law, love under will.

We are the architechs of our own misfortune.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

For all of my life I have been guided by what I call "that little voice". In my youth I did not recognize it for what it is..but only now as I age can I look back and see it clearly and its influence. Only recently have I learned to trust in its direction. Once again I find myself here, unable to form the words. But I will try and I will let that that little voice be my guide. Whether it holds any relevance for anyone here, it does not matter one bit, for what matters most is what happens within our very own skulls. I can see now how that little voice led me as a young teenager to a bookshop called The Dawn of Light. It was the mid 70's and it was where The Book of the Law and The Little Essasies Towards Truth came into my hands for the first time. I went back a week later and bought a handful more. I read and I read and I could not understand, but I kept on reading until the words were etched across my mind. Now I can see the effect those words have had on my life and to this day nothing enflames my heart quite like Liber VII.
Three months into my 17th year I decided to practice control of speech. I chose not just one word but all the words that referred to myself in the first person..the toughest of which was "I". It was truly a test for the first month. I would cut light on the first slip ups, then I would use the forbidden words and say the hell with it and just take the medicine. Viewing that as a failure on reflection, I started to cut deeper..to the point of needing stiches. Finally after about a month I just stopped talking all together for the rest of that year. I spent my time alone in the woods as much as possible. As a seventeen year old still living with parents it was tough, they came close to commiting me I think. After that nothing was ever the same, especially "I".
In late 1978 I felt that I needed structure. I contacted the U.S. Army and the OTO in Nashville, Tenn. It is not my intention to belittle the OTO here but I got the impression that I was dealing with a bunch of complete raving lunatics. That little voice. Off I went to jump out of airplanes. I volunteered for SF and ended up working in spec ops until the early 90's when the sitting president decided that me and a whole bunch of other asses were not cutting the mustard. What I seen in those sixteen years...well..anyway Liber AL in a waterproof bag went with me all the way.
Initiation..the sight and form of the letters have always been a source of energy of sorts for me. The mystery. The wonder. The power of the way it looks. In my mind I have equated it with life..living life and viewing every event from the point of view that this experience or that holds a deeper meaning and has something to be learned from it. The lessons are not always clear, but they are always there, no matter how greatly I expand or infinitly small I contract. For me it has always been a matter of point of view.
As was stated earlier, everyones experiences are different. I have never known the candlelit and incense filled temple. I have looked within and at the starry night sky without and have seen they are the same.
The question now is, do I hit the button and post this mindless ramble? What the hell? I'm tired of talking to myself and it might just entertain someone?

Love is the law, love under will.

We are the architechs of our own misfortune.

Thank you for this wonderful and enriching tale!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Azidonis wrote:

All I'm saying is, regardless of copyright laws and prejudices and what may or may not go on "at the top", which really isn't the business of most of us anyway, these people, these Thelemites, do work hard in order to grow as human beings.

Yes, thanks for that. I was going to say the same thing. I also wanted to say that the thing that makes many Initiations special is the hard work and dedication members put in to make it a memorable experience. One officer present at one of my Initiations struggled for weeks to remember his role perfectly because he didn't want to let me down. That really touched me and it has never left me, long after I had forgotten the rite itself. It is out of such things that a real sense of place and brotherhood grows.

Atzilut


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obscurus
(@obscuruspaintus)
Member
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 316
 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Do you see what I see or do we all see the same things?
I see a speck of light in an uncomprehensible vastness of nothing and around that speck turns a smaller orb. On that small orb exists how many billion similar yet unique beings. There are how many registered members on this site out of all those billions and of those members how many have participated in this thread? So few drawn together from such vastness. Following this thread and the sharing of thoughts and experiences here, the emotions displayed I find simply incredible. Stars in space. The initiation of change within the mind. The sharing of thoughts and ideas, brought together by the writings of one Aleister Crowely, to a site maintained by one Paul F*****. Point of view, thought with specific intent shared and this becomes a very fertile field. I ramble on like an idiot but more than once have I seen the light go on in someones eyes while talking to them about that one simple line...Every man and every woman is a star. By finding our way , we help others find theirs.
I promise that I will not make a habit of this and once again beg your indulgence. It has been just over two years since I acquired this computer and everyday I tell myself it is time to pull the plug on it for awhile..but where else can you find a place like LAShTAL and see things like this http://video.yahoo.com/editorspicks-12135647/featured-24306389/the-tempest-milky-way-26434946.html ...oh yeah, I forgot..its all inside our skulls.

Love is the law, love under will.

We are the architechs of our own misfortune.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 2964
 
"obscuruspaintus" wrote:
I ramble on like an idiot

I don't think so. From one rambler to another, ramble on, Brother!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"Atzilut" wrote:
Azidonis wrote:
Yes, thanks for that. I was going to say the same thing. I also wanted to say that the thing that makes many Initiations special is the hard work and dedication members put in to make it a memorable experience. One officer present at one of my Initiations struggled for weeks to remember his role perfectly because he didn't want to let me down. That really touched me and it has never left me, long after I had forgotten the rite itself. It is out of such things that a real sense of place and brotherhood grows.
Atzilut

There's great truth in this.. and that is why these old initiatory groups continue to survive (actually the ONLY reason they survive), because you get certain members who put their heart and soul into doing a role (even for a short time), and it breathes some life into a dead situation.
I've been there, in the blood, sweat and tears, where you're setting up a dusty hall from scratch on your own or with 2 people, and have spent two months learning off lines by wrote.. then you pull off the whole thing, take another 2 hours to pack up, and the whole night is exhausting but a pure success and selfless work for some candidate you didn't hardly know from a bar of soap. You feel the brotherhood of it all, and the true service. There is Love all around.
Then it happens that people get attracted to this energy, and the group, pulled in as it were by the Universe itself, and things all hum along for a while.. that is until there comes a whiff of the decay from somewhere (maybe up top).. or a few skeletons drop out from the closet (from further up in the pyramid).
I noticed Osho was mentioned above by Az.. and Osho wasn't an idiot. He said one thing-- and that was that someone could very well become 'enlightened' even by studying under a false guru IF they have pure innocent faith and somehow stumble on the right practice.. despite the guru being a complete sham. And you sometimes get that within these initiatory groups-- initiators with no idea what's really going on (but they themselves have some kind of blind faith in the top of the pyramid or some ideal about a "higher purpose" in it all), officers who are babies themselves, and yet the whole thing goes off with a bang, and the candidate gets a real-deal initiation.
The tragedy is that the positive energy doesn't last forever.. it's usually pretty short lived, often snuffed out by the very group structure (or higher leadership) the whole initiation team is idealizing and working for day & night. However, like everything else in life ("anatta"), it certainly is enjoyable and lovely while it lasts.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

zazenji wrote:
I noticed Osho was mentioned above by Az.. and Osho wasn't an idiot. He said one thing-- and that was that someone could very well become 'enlightened' even by studying under a false guru IF they have pure innocent faith and somehow stumble on the right practice.. despite the guru being a complete sham. And you sometimes get that within these initiatory groups-- initiators with no idea what's really going on (but they themselves have some kind of blind faith in the top of the pyramid or some ideal about a "higher purpose" in it all), officers who are babies themselves, and yet the whole thing goes off with a bang, and the candidate gets a real-deal initiation.

Yes, this is a point often overlooked.

Atzilut


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

<span style="font-size:18px]An Interlude%;">

The validation of an Initiation Ritual:

Let’s say for example, you have just turned the crank and passed through the Secret Ritual performed in this 20 second enactment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWSNd0CyGuk

To determine if one has truly experienced a valid Initiation, we would either immediately sense the importance of its symbolism or shortly afterward have the capability of detecting the elements therein which were relevant to the ends it was intended to meet.

The discerning eye would have clearly noticed:

a) The blue triangle that descendeth as Nuit, in this case a stairway and all that implies.

b) The red triangle that ascendeth as Hadit, in this case the ramp and all that implies.

c) The cleansing Bath of Purification, red again as the Rose symbolizing the K&C of the HGA.

d) The Golden Dust Bowl (as The Abyss), and Choronzon the Green Dweller therein.

e) And finally, The Cup of Babalon descendeth containing every last drop of the Adept's blood, as he dwells therein at the City of the Pyramids.

Was all this intended to depict the Path of Initiation, or simply a quick method, employed to catch that dirty rat?

And now back to our previously scheduled program


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

meh


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2856
 

I loved that game as a kid, me friend had one. we couldnt afford it though. Had to spend time cleaning out lake we lived under while stopping fish from stealing our food. After walking home 20 mile from saw mill after working ourselves to death. All the while sleeping in hole in gravel. Ah the good old days.

Oh this is about initiation?
I haven't had the pleasure in person but I have experienced a fascinating initiation in dream. Has anyone else had this happen? It was a large stone church/school type open building. And without going into details I was astrally inducted into a brotherhood (that was the name but it had women). I dont think I should give away details just because the need for silence was stressed even in the dream.

Howeer I would love if anyone else who has had a dream or astral initiation separate from a physical one would chime in. Its a fascinating topic to me. Other worlds and that.
Reminds me of W. Streibers book The Secret School.
Look forward to any input.


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