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newneubergOuch2
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This just in off my FB newsfeed.

Seems to address many of what members have discussed in various threads.

http://oto.org/news0413.html

(Also sent the link to lashtal.com)


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
The plants talk to me....
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News from International Headquarters
April 10, 2013 e.v.

An update on book publishing  progress from the O.T.O.

http://oto.org/news0413.html

[Moderator's Note: Text deleted - see below.]


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lashtal
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Thanks, newneubergOuch2. As a result of your Private Message I have written to OTO to request permission to reproduce the fascinating announcement here on LAShTAL.COM.

Meanwhile, I urge members of this site to visit the link above for lots of interesting information on the Thoth Tarot, the publishing plans of OTO and an especially intriguing piece on the whole 'fill me/kill me' puzzle...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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the_real_simon_iff
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93!

Absolutely fantastic news! Thanks!

Love=Law
Lutz


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lashtal
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Thanks, Paul, for posting this. Unfortunately, I've had to remove the text: 'fair use' is probably exceeded here. I've written to request permission to reproduce the material, though.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
The plants talk to me....
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Understand but what exciting news!!!


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belmurru
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Wow - taking on US Games! This will be instructive, if not entertaining.

I seriously want an English edition of the Thoth Tarot that HB mentions... until then (it might be years) I'll have to buy the German one.


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eol
 eol
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I'm so going to Venice. 😀


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William Thirteen
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and an especially intriguing piece on the whole 'fill me/kill me' puzzle...

i think we may have killed the server...


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lashtal
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I have reproduced full details regarding the Thoth Tarot exhibition, the planned Thoth litigation and the OTO's detailed publishing plans as News items on LAShTAL.COM with kind permission of the author, Hymenaeus Beta.

The fascinating little snippet on the 'fill me/kill me' puzzle is included in another Forum post.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Los
 Los
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"lashtal" wrote:
the Thoth Tarot exhibition, the planned Thoth litigation and the OTO's detailed publishing plans [...] The fascinating little snippet on the 'fill me/kill me' puzzle [...]

All very interesting and exciting. What an update!

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.


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Ariock
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Other than the restoration of the Thoth paintings, the "latest news" seems to be more of the same. The short version; "We want to remind you that we printed cheap Crowley paperbacks that you didn't buy. Yes, we know that the material is available for free elsewhere, but ours are better because we spend a ton of time researching and editing this material that is already available for free to make "better" cheap paperback versions. That you didn't buy. These are our gauge to see if you guys would actually buy some Crowley stuff, so here's a link to buy them, in case you missed it. Did we mention they are cheap? Regarding the material that you actually do want, and would buy, we are 95% finished with the Complete Diaries. No, sorry, that appears to be the update we made back in APRIL OF 2009. It's not ready. Neither is Confessions which we almost had done 5 years ago. But it's almost done. For real. In the meantime, we are engaged in yet another lawsuit over Crowley copyrights with people who are actually willing and able to print and distribute these materials. And we want your money to help pay for suing them."


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Azidonis
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"Ariock" wrote:
Other than the restoration of the Thoth paintings, the "latest news" seems to be more of the same. The short version; "We want to remind you that we printed cheap Crowley paperbacks that you didn't buy. Yes, we know that the material is available for free elsewhere, but ours are better because we spend a ton of time researching and editing this material that is already available for free to make "better" cheap paperback versions. That you didn't buy. These are our gauge to see if you guys would actually buy some Crowley stuff, so here's a link to buy them, in case you missed it. Did we mention they are cheap? Regarding the material that you actually do want, and would buy, we are 95% finished with the Complete Diaries. No, sorry, that appears to be the update we made back in APRIL OF 2009. It's not ready. Neither is Confessions which we almost had done 5 years ago. But it's almost done. For real. In the meantime, we are engaged in yet another lawsuit over Crowley copyrights with people who are actually willing and able to print and distribute these materials. And we want your money to help pay for suing them."

Wheel and whoa!


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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New York attorney at $500 an hour, U.S. District Court, petition, preliminary objection, appeal to Court of Appeals, back to District Court, discovery, depositions, jury trial, decision, appeal, cross-claim, hearing, ruling, appeal, Supreme Court if granted.

Litigation lasting five years and potentially Half a million, probably more.

What were those famous last words of AC's? 'You're nothing but a pack of cards.'

Go for it!!


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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"Magickal" wrote:
What were those famous last words of AC's? 'You're nothing but a pack of cards.'

Actually, his famous last (written) words were in a P.S. in his last letter to Germer:

"The Profess House system will not work. You'll have to find another way to bring in the New Aeon."

It might have been New Age - I don't have a copy of the letter any more.


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Palamedes
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A myopic vision occludes what is plainly written and in particular - of some relevance to A.C. legacy site - that "all of Crowley’s surviving diaries are now in page proofs—totalling over 6,000 pages as things now stand". But I guess to some people even that much is not enough.


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lashtal
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"Magickal" wrote:
What were those famous last words of AC's? 'You're nothing but a pack of cards.'

You're confusing AC's last words (which are disputed but may have been 'Sometimes I hate myself' or 'I am perplexed') with the last words in the 'Prelude' to his Confessions: I believe that truth is not only stranger than fiction, but more interesting. And I have no motive for deception, because I don’t give a damn for the whole human race—”you’re nothing but a pack of cards.”

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Yes, you are correct. I meant the famous last words in the prelude to Confessions. Not famous final words. ;D

Therefore if we are all nothing but a pack of cards, then all there is worth fighting for is the truth of who the pack belongs to.

This could eventually become the most expensive pack of cards in the history of packs of cards.

It is worth the fight.


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belmurru
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"Magickal" wrote:
New York attorney at $500 an hour, U.S. District Court, petition, preliminary objection, appeal to Court of Appeals, back to District Court, discovery, depositions, jury trial, decision, appeal, cross-claim, hearing, ruling, appeal, Supreme Court if granted.

Litigation lasting five years and potentially Half a million, probably more.

What were those famous last words of AC's? 'You're nothing but a pack of cards.'

Go for it!!

One might wonder if the ownership of the copyright to the Thoth Tarot for the next 20-odd years (what remains of the copyright protection) will actually generate that much in revenue (half a million dollars). If the suit is not settled for five years or so (I guess it is a reasonable estimate), then that is 25 percent less time to profit from owning Crowley's Tarot. In the best case scenario, OTO wins, and US Games pays for the suit and damages (lost revenue) - perhaps a couple of millions at most (I'm being generous). I suppose that is the calculation OTO has made - they will win and make their money back and more. US Games is big enough to make it a worthwhile gamble, it seems.


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Philip Harris-Smith
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I find the excuses for not publishing remarkable.  So many books out there privately or small scale published these days, some not even ever becoming hardcopy, such a lot of legal battling to then not really publish that much.  Also I have read of how editing has somehow watered down the shall we say less liberal opinions, who can say.


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Azidonis
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"Magickal" wrote:
Therefore if we are all nothing but a pack of cards, then all there is worth fighting for is the truth of who the pack belongs to.

Are you talking about all of humanity?

Off-topic, I know. Just wanted clarification on the phrasing.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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"Azidonis" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
Therefore if we are all nothing but a pack of cards, then all there is worth fighting for is the truth of who the pack belongs to.

Are you talking about all of humanity?

Off-topic, I know. Just wanted clarification on the phrasing.

No, just speaking for myself, my own interpretation. I do really like this line of his though, it has a lot of metaphoric potential. A pack of cards, playing cards, life is a game, people are cards, people are 'dupes', people are easily played, like cards in a game. Which comes back to who controls the deck? The 'house', the dealer, the big large commercial dealer, U.S. Games; or the rightful owners, the creators. Control the deck, control the game.

The part prior to that, about not giving a damn about humanity. That seems the expression of a player dealt a series of bad hands by a dealer who has stacked the deck.


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Los
 Los
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"Magickal" wrote:
I do really like this line of his though

You are aware that "You're nothing but a pack of cards" is originally from Alice in Wonderland, right?


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belmurru
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Everybody knows, I hope, that this is a quote from Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

"...
'It's a pun!' the King added in an offended tone, and everybody laughed, 'Let the jury consider their verdict,' the King said, for about the twentieth time that day.
'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first—verdict afterwards.'
'Stuff and nonsense!' said Alice loudly. 'The idea of having the sentence first!'
'Hold your tongue!' said the Queen, turning purple.
'I won't!' said Alice.
Off with her head!' the Queen shouted at the top of her voice. Nobody moved.
'Who cares for you?' said Alice, (she had grown to her full size by this time.) 'You're nothing but a pack of cards!'"


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belmurru
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"Los" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
I do really like this line of his though

You are aware that "You're nothing but a pack of cards" is originally from Alice in Wonderland, right?

Wow - simultaneous post!


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Los
 Los
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"belmurru" wrote:
Wow - simultaneous post!

Great minds....


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belmurru
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"Los" wrote:
"belmurru" wrote:
Wow - simultaneous post!

Great minds....

I thought so.

I also thought that everybody knew where the quote came from, but as the discussion wore on without anybody mentioning Carroll, I couldn't restrain myself.


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Anonymous
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Actually I wasn't aware of that. I guess that proves I am a card. Perhaps The Fool, or The Hanged Man.


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Los
 Los
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"belmurru" wrote:
I also thought that everybody knew where the quote came from

Crowley even helpfully puts that sentence in quotation marks, indicating that someone else is "speaking" at that point in his text....


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belmurru
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"Magickal" wrote:
Actually I wasn't aware of that. I guess that proves I am a card. Perhaps The Fool, or The Hanged Man.

Bravo! No shame in not knowing, Magickal.

It's actually a useful thing to know, I've found, when you're hanging around types literate enough to know it, when they becoming annoying. Make the same gesture as Alice when you say it.


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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Bravo! No shame in not knowing, Magickal.

Guilty of literary ignorance, admitted. Anyway, I think with all of this pending litigation my idea to ask the OTO for permission to publish 'Ethyl Oxide' will be too expensive an endeavor.

I look forward to The American Diaries.


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belmurru
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"Magickal link" wrote:
Anyway, I think with all of this pending litigation my idea to ask the OTO for permission to publish 'Ethyl Oxide' will be too expensive an endeavor.

I look forward to The American Diaries.

It doesn't cost anything to ask! I very much doubt the OTO will ask for a fee or, much less, royalties. It's worth it to try. You might find you have a small army of support and deep knowledge that comes to your assistance.


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Anonymous
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"belmurru" wrote:
"Magickal link" wrote:
Anyway, I think with all of this pending litigation my idea to ask the OTO for permission to publish 'Ethyl Oxide' will be too expensive an endeavor.

I look forward to The American Diaries.

It doesn't cost anything to ask! I very much doubt the OTO will ask for a fee or, much less, royalties. It's worth it to try. You might find you have a small army of support and deep knowledge that comes to your assistance.

Well, I would have a lawyer ask, if I found it was worth it. Speaking of which, I missed out on my True Will. I should have been a lawyer. If I had been, then I might say "Hey, you knew U.S. Games was in violation of XYZ back when? 1996? That's 17 years ago. There is a 3 year limit on copyright claims that starts the minute when you know you have a claim. Laches prevents equity in this case. Therefore U.S. Games must cease selling the cards, but is not responsible to pay for prior royalties that were never agreed upon; or claimed at the time of the violation."


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belmurru
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I wonder if, when it became apparent that US Games wasn't going to abide by the spirit of the deal, OTO should have just given the North America licence to AG Müller unilaterally, ignoring the "last minute" clause for US Games in the original contract, and thereby provoking US Games to sue rather than vice versa.

US Games' strategy seems to be to continue selling a deck they consider still public domain (pre-1996), which means that they think the law on the issue of "restored copyrights" is not as settled as HB would have us think.

If I had any influence in the matter, I'd urge OTO to pressure AG Müller to begin printing and selling the English-language version of the new Thoth in Europe (UK) and Australia and other non-North America English speaking parts of the world. Why should we have to wait on a decision that only influences North America? AG Müller already has the licence for the rest of the world, and HB says that the English-language cards (and other unspecified languages - Spanish, Italian, Portuguese?) are done. It's all ready, why hasn't AG Müller done it?


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Anonymous
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There are two cases which are interesting to read in this area. The first is the case of Paula Petrella vs. MGM, on the issue of a copyright claim and statute of limitations. That had to do with the rights to Raging Bull.

The other is Laura Siegel Larson vs. Warner Bros, regarding the rights to SupermanThe Ninth Circuit in the latter case apparently decided you don't need a contract, to have a contract, and they cite The Facebook.


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Anonymous
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Hamal
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You've lost me Magickal, what has that to do with the OTO's Publishing Progress?

93
Hamal


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Anonymous
 Anonymous
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If you believe you have rights to a work, and you know that work is being reproduced without your permission; there is a time limit you have to file a claim. The clock starts pretty much as of the moment you are aware of the infringement. Raging Bull is an example of a party who knew, but didn't file suit within the time frame; and thus was put out of court. Except now the US Supreme Court has agreed to consider whether that is good law or not. It seems like OTO and US Games are in the same position. They knew in 1996 that US Games gave them the finger, and refused to sign a license agreement. The clock started then. Waiting 17 years to file will surely be objected to, by US Games on the grounds that the clock has run out. Raging Bull could change that if the US Supreme Court changes the rules.


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Hamal
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Ah I see Magickal, now I understand the relevance of your link.

I wonder if such a time limit is considered relevant under UK copyright law?

93
Hamal


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jamie barter
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Don’t you just love all these byzantine copyright complications and different international procedures?  (Think of a number, then add or take away twenty…) 

But I suppose it’s not all bad; at least all those nice [C.]O.T.O. dues and donations help to keep all of the briefs in the style & affluent circumstances to which they and their families have become accustomed over the years!

Regarding the actual title of this thread: there still appears to be no concrete news yet of the complete Confessions, Collected Diaries or – what was that other thing eternally coming up, now also due for the silver anniversary of its first breathless announcement?  Oh yes, that “restitution” of the aborted “Equinox” Volume III No. 2 – which has supposedly been ‘in galleys’ all this time...

Sacrebleu! no more false dawns or lights at the end of the rabbit tunnel please!!
Norma N. Joy Conquest


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