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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
20/06/2008 12:04 am  
"Paolo_sammut" wrote:
I do wish we could all work together on the work however because both "sides" have a lot to offer and we shouldn't really be opposing each other at all. I dont believe that issues such as money, trademarks or having an OTO inc should override the work of our very souls.

Someday, Paolo, it will be like that. Not tomorrow, perhaps not next year, but it will come about.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1126
20/06/2008 12:53 am  

And onward to the garrison of Free French at Brazzaville. As time goes by...


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 1:04 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Someday, Paolo, it will be like that. Not tomorrow, perhaps not next year, but it will come about.

Absolutely. I hope, and I am quite sure, that there will be intelligent contributions pending i.e. more writers 'out there' that will 'bridge' this tiny gap and reveal the true nature of THE GREAT WORK, which both these magickal orders claim to be a lineage of.

My very best wishes

Keep up THE GREAT WORK Starfire!

Charles


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 3:51 am  
"LittleAlickGrewUp" wrote:
Maybe now Thelemites can put this to bed and actually get on with the real work.

heh, good one, you should work the imrpov!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 4:18 am  
"Walterfive" wrote:
Claims by Berrson or Eales or anyone else about S.O.T.O. exist only on websites and isolated pockets of seemingly very bitter freaks who can't get on with their lives and put the past behind them.

HOOR is a very important order in the Thelemic movement and Bersson's movement is not nearly as on the same page as him as you might think. First of all, I have yet to see Eales be controversial on ANY level near Motta and even Bersson. He has firm roots, his A.'.A.'. lineage is strong and HOOR is a thriving order, not JUST on the internet. As to Bersson... he also rarely refers to the California and Maine trials, continuing to move on building on what Motta established for his O.T.O. system. Yes he has the whole "true" O.T.O. meme but he doesn't dwell on past failures of Motta. Yeah, he has an axe to grind with the Caliphate but really, what independent Thelemic order hasn't outside of the Thelemic Golden Dawn? With Bersson and Eales you have a more functioning A.'.A.'. lineage than any other, maybe Seckler's coming closest to the same levels of "success", though I imagine you would question the success of these people because of prejudices that you have developed over the years.

I hate to burst your bubble but Thelema is far more than the Caliphate O.T.O., the movement is much, much bigger. The 3000 number is to my understanding somewhat bloated counting initiated and associate members as well as some inactive members of the order. Nevermind the degree congestion that has occurred and the inability of certain level of the membership to get any higher, including several long term (20+ years) members. These things keep people from wanting to join the O.T.O. At least in the Typhonian, Society and other O.T.O. groups there is an active movement to bring the members up the roster and into the high degrees and to develop the degrees beyond Crowley. The numbers also seem to be stuck in the same number that it was reached in the mid to late 90s with no growth or expansion. If I am wrong on the way the numbers work, I will gladly accept correction from a far greater authority than me on the topic (Patriarch?) than me.

I don't want to indict the O.T.O. and I am not indict or criticizing the leadership here, but expressing that the system has developed some problems in its functioning. I also understand that distractions have probably kept the international leadership from being able to address the issues adequately at this time.

The fringe groups experienced quite a bit of growth in the mid to late 90s. What really makes it the fringe though? That it isn't the Caliphate? In my eyes there are three "legitimate" O.T.O. groups with Direct, unbroken descent from Crowley, Motta (OTO ended when he died and the trust seperated without naming a successor, carried on by others but none have a legit claim to being THE Society OTO or "Motta's OTO")), Caliphate and the Swiss.


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slq
 slq
(@slq)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 15
20/06/2008 7:30 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

For the record, our membership figures (3,407 as of 29 February 2008) include only active initiate members in good standing. We have not counted "associates" (those who affiliate by correspondence) in our membership figures since 2004.

Furthermore, members are automatically determined inactive if they fail to pay dues and respond to notices within two years of their last initiation or dues renewal (one year in the U.S.), or they may request voluntary inactive status, or resign. Thus, the figures fairly accurately represent active initiate membership, as the rolls are regularly purged of those who fail to maintain contact and involvement with the Order.

Nevertheless, our membership has grown steadily over the last decade: on average 4% per year, overall 54% since 1995. We now have members in 48 countries, active local bodies in 30 countries, and 3 Grand Lodges.

If we were to count everyone who had joined since 1976, our membership would now be over 13,000.

Love is the law, love under will.

Vere Chappell
Treasurer General
Ordo Templi Orientis


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slq
 slq
(@slq)
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20/06/2008 7:44 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

One more thing, membership in the invitational degrees (Vth & up) has grown by an average of 6.2% per year, overall up 93.5% since 1995 -- therefore growing faster than the membership overall.

Of course, as invitational degrees, not everyone is admitted. "Time in grade" is not one of the criteria for advancement. Thus, one person not advancing to IXth after 20 years is not evidence for "degree congestion".

Another interesting statistic: the gender balance in the invitational degrees is the same as that in the Order overall (roughly 42% women / 58% men).

Love is the law, love under will.

Vere Chappell
Treasurer General
Ordo Templi Orientis


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 7:49 am  

Thanks for the clarifications Vere, much appreciated and I stand corrected which is why I asked for clarification.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 11:35 am  

Wow, what did magical orders do before the invention of the spreadsheet?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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Posts: 1126
20/06/2008 12:22 pm  
"noxlux" wrote:
A question arises: what are the leaders of the Caliphate thinking? Are they just mercenary capitalists, or do they indeed consider themselves to be serving another, for lack of a better term, spiritual agenda?

I don't know why people talk about OTO as if it were an investment company. It's a non-profit corporation where one of the articles (2.04B) states "no member shall have property rights in this corporation". Section 19 gives a general "Prohibition Against Sharing Corporate Profits and Assets" as required for non-profit status.

For the benefit of the US Treasury Dept., 1) OTO's activities have to be religious, 2) compensation to members must be reasonable (e.g., HB's allowance is a pitiful $4,000), and 3) income will not be used to serve private individuals (i.e., non-members).

They manage to give the "CEO" enough to run an office and have a tiny living allowance, but this is quite normal for a charity, where people will often work punishing hours for practically no pecuniary reward. Eventually, of course, the aim is to provide Profess-Houses and so on, but that seems like a long way off. Maybe you would have a complaint if there were a string of mansions around the world where high-degree members could have their magickal retirements, but OTO is also criticised for not having enough "real estate" (as distinct from IP rights).


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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20/06/2008 12:27 pm  
"Alastrum" wrote:
Membership: there are considerably more active members in one camp, and considerably less active members in the other, than the instances quoted.

The financials seem to add up for OTO... but not for some other groups. Albion OTO is a dormant company, doesn't file accounts, so how many members can they have? They claim 24, but this is completely at odds with what I know of their current membership, and what I've been told by Rob (the true figure is about 7). They may "share" some additional members with UR-OTO or maybe OTOF.

TOTO didn't give membership numbers at all -- one can only suppose that the numbers are absolutely tiny, and I think they like it that way. Mick didn't demur when the hearing officer tried to nail him down to a figure of about 10-20, but I would guess <10. I don't know at all about OTOF, but their figure of 20 members is open to interpretation.

An overall figure of 30-40 seems reasonable. Out of 67 total expulsions from OTO (inc. Grant), they have a large proportion. 😉

Alastrum, I don't intend to reply to your comments on the merits of the TM case; suffice to say that I disagree with your guesswork, and I think the facts of the case are quite different to the manner in which you present it on the basis of having read HB's announcement.


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2077
20/06/2008 3:41 pm  

Just to clarify the amount of active OTOF members in Ireland alone no.s over 25. This i know from personal interaction.
I am not aware exactly how many are in England and Wales tho.
Ireland at present has 3 lodges. England i am unsure, one in Manchester for definite and another Wales.
So on this basis say over 40 in total.
Maybe someone from the order can confirm.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 4:21 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
I don't know why people talk about OTO as if it were an investment company. It's a non-profit corporation where one of the articles (2.04B) states "no member shall have property rights in this corporation". Section 19 gives a general "Prohibition Against Sharing Corporate Profits and Assets" as required for non-profit status.

For the benefit of the US Treasury Dept., 1) OTO's activities have to be religious, 2) compensation to members must be reasonable (e.g., HB's allowance is a pitiful $4,000), and 3) income will not be used to serve private individuals (i.e., non-members).

They manage to give the "CEO" enough to run an office and have a tiny living allowance, but this is quite normal for a charity, where people will often work punishing hours for practically no pecuniary reward. Eventually, of course, the aim is to provide Profess-Houses and so on, but that seems like a long way off. Maybe you would have a complaint if there were a string of mansions around the world where high-degree members could have their magickal retirements, but OTO is also criticised for not having enough "real estate" (as distinct from IP rights).

Ok, so if the purpose behind these legal actions have not been monetary, then what have they been?

Listen, I have no insight in the particular economic workings of the Caliphate, however I have some experience with "non profit" corporations, and I am sure that if you talk with a couple of persons who have dealt with "non profit" corporations they will report to you that such are often more predatory and vulturelike when it comes to money as regular corporations.

Do not get me wrong. I do not think there is anything wrong with money or doing things for profit.

(Hell - let's get hold of 10 % of the kind of money which flow into christian churches across the world and redirect that stream into the occult world! Now, that would be slightly interesting!)

However I do find it slightly disturbing that the caliphate has monopolized copyrights and now also the term oto.

While the description you give of the economics of the caliphate indeed sound modest enough ... since it sounds like you have some insight, please let me ask you: what have been the consequences of the caliphates legal actions in economical terms?

All the best
Noxlux


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Posts: 5325
20/06/2008 4:45 pm  
"noxlux" wrote:
the caliphate has monopolized copyrights

Just for the record, I am aware that the OTO - while strongly defending its legally obtained copyrights - has been very generous in permitting reproductions of the relevant material. Certainly, much of the material in the Galleries here is presented only as a result of that generosity. Similarly, there's a long list of published books that exist only because of the willingness of the OTO to allow reproduction of copyright text and images. One has only to read, for example, Richard Spence's "Secret Agent 666" and the substantial amount of quoted material, not to mention other works, such as the various recent biographies of AC and so on.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Palamedes
(@palamedes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 450
20/06/2008 6:02 pm  

I understand that the emotions are running high on this issue but I still consider many of the responses to be misguided.

People often complain using an argument that Grant is a brilliant man and his version of Thelema original, etc. Who is disputing this? This is not about a value judgement of either Grant or his Order. The only real issue is that Caliphate believes that they are the continuation of Aleister Crowley's OTO, and that to me seems very much well-founded belief. Crowley has also left his literary output to the OTO and, if I understand it correctly, what the OTO (let's continue to call it Caliphate for the sake of argument) is doing is to make sure that this literary output is published in a manner that accords with high scholarly and publication standards. I'd say, they are doing that job admirably. Now you may argue that this is a conservative function lacking originality. Is this necessarily problematic? I don't think so. Life consists of creation, maintenance, and destruction: in Hinduism, this is symbolized through the functions of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Each of these is relevant and important. I think that anyone who believes that the function of an Order is to make a person creative is mistaken. No one and nothing can do it for you: you have to do it yourself. The way I understand it, the function of any order, in any mystical-magical system, is to provide its initiates with a template of structured experiences organized symbolically (i.e., rites of passage), in the process of which particular theoretical and practical instructions are imparted onto the person. Crowley clearly wrote on several occasions that the system of OTO consists of the graded series of initiations representing symbolically: ego's attraction to the Solar system (Minerval); Birth (1st degree); Life (2nd degree); Death (3rd degree); Life after Death (4th degree) and from 5th through 9th degree, particular instructions in the art of living. That is OTO. I don't see any of this in Grant's OTO, ergo: it is not OTO. I am not saying: Grant is not brilliant; I am not saying, His Order is nonsense. No. Only this: Grant's Order is his own creation, it differs significantly from OTO, from which he was expelled, and it would be much more appropriate and admirable if he gives his own Order an original name.

Back to creativity: OTO system, as laid out above, is a template of experience and a graded model of instruction. And while this in itself cannot make you wise and good person and creative, there is absolutely no reason to argue that just by virtue of being part of this system and by promoting this system one cannot be creative and original and what not. This is such a condescending argument, which has been put forward so many times. "Caliphate is not / cannot be creative." If I understand correctly, Ramsey Dukes is or was the member: he sure is creative and original. Kenneth Anger also. Harry Smith, EGC Bishop, similarly so. It is not exactly that Caliphate is about worshiping Crowley. On the other hand, what I see among Typhonians is in fact exactly worshipping and mimicking Grant, with no originality that goes beyond what the Man said (my apologies to exceptions: I am making general statements). All we see is a lot of Lovecraft, a lot of Cthulhu, a lot of LAM, a lot of Tunnels of Set and Power Zones and Extra-terrestrialism, etc. Regurgitations without any original contribution. So, it seems to me, that the argument in the end turns out to be the Straw Man. And this is a small wonder. There is no magical order that can make you creative, there is no magical system that can make you original, there is no teacher that can make you wise, BUT also: none of the above necessarily precludes you from becoming original, creative and wise. OTO is an attempt at something along particular lines, nothing less and nothing more. Grant's Order is about something else: equally important and valuable, only different. It is not the OTO. If I want to listen to Radiohead, please don't put on Sex Pistols.


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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Posts: 856
20/06/2008 6:10 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
Claims by Berrson or Eales or anyone else about S.O.T.O. exist only on websites and isolated pockets of seemingly very bitter freaks who can't get on with their lives and put the past behind them.

HOOR is a very important order in the Thelemic movement and Bersson's movement is not nearly as on the same page as him as you might think.

Says who? :-/ You? And who else? Where are *their* books? Where are *their* publications? I don't see them for sale anywhere. Frankly, the Solar Lodge has more publication presence in the last five years, IMHO. Just because someone suffers from diaherrea of their keyboard and puts up a website it doesn't make them "a very important order."

First of all, I have yet to see Eales be controversial on ANY level near Motta and even Bersson. He has firm roots, his A.'.A.'. lineage is strong and HOOR is a thriving order, not JUST on the internet.

Claims are easy to make. I can look at my back issues of "In The Continuum" and "Starfire" and "Red Flame" and see proof of working and producing Thelemic Orders and A.'.A.'. Lineages. Outside of the poorly done (and so called) Equinox Vol. VII No. 1, I haven't seen anything from Mr's. Eales or Bersson that come close.

As to Bersson... he also rarely refers to the California and Maine trials, continuing to move on building on what Motta established for his O.T.O. system. Yes he has the whole "true" O.T.O. meme but he doesn't dwell on past failures of Motta. Yeah, he has an axe to grind with the Caliphate but really, what independent Thelemic order hasn't outside of the Thelemic Golden Dawn? With Bersson and Eales you have a more functioning A.'.A.'. lineage than any other, maybe Seckler's coming closest to the same levels of "success", though I imagine you would question the success of these people because of prejudices that you have developed over the years.

Prejudices? Please. I've been on the Usenet/Internet since the late 80's. That's "my experience" you're talking about, *not* my so-called "prejudices." From *my* personal experience, from the words I've seen them write, they are individuals whose nature I would hesitate to catagorize orificially in polite company. 🙄

I hate to burst your bubble but Thelema is far more than the Caliphate O.T.O., the movement is much, much bigger. The 3000 number is to my understanding somewhat bloated counting initiated and associate members as well as some inactive members of the order.

First off, I wouldn't *be* here if I didn't think the movement was bigger. I certainly wouldn't have actively collected publications from the Typhonians, the College and Temple of Thelema, from the original S.O.T.O. and others. And your disingenous 'dissing' of the Caliphate's 3700-odd membership figure is a matter that I have already addressed.

Nevermind the degree congestion that has occurred and the inability of certain level of the membership to get any higher, including several long term (20+ years) members.

Yeah, living in a glass house like you do, you'd *BEST* to "never mind" that stuff. I stated my position quite clearly-- to the majority of Caliphate members, Eales and Berrson's organizations are so small as to be practically non-existant. I will say that the Thelemic Order of the Golden Dawn was generally percieved to be a worthy organization, but it unfortunately never really "took off" and its flower appears to have died on the vine.

The fringe groups experienced quite a bit of growth in the mid to late 90s. What really makes it the fringe though? That it isn't the Caliphate?

Well, I'm sure internet accesibility had a lot to do with their temporary surge in growth, the same thing happened to Charles Manson's TAWA (Trees Air Water Animals) website. It got thousands of hits.

What 'really' makes it the fringe? Perhaps its position on the far edge? The very fact that *you* identify 'the fringe groups' you're defending as such, is prima facea admission that they are.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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20/06/2008 6:50 pm  

Excellent post Gordan, and spot on. But that's precisely why the other versions of OTO felt the need to make a stand against hegemony. It's a great shame they lost. No other OTO group was claiming to be the one and only, all were merely expressing their desire to live and let live. Let the people decide which Order to join, not remove all choices but one.
I don't think anyone in any of the other OTO's will disagree with what you've said, indeed the TOTO always said there was a place for the COTO: it's a pity they didn't reciprocate. McMurtry and Grant had a healthy respect for each other, as both had learned from the master, as it were, but the current leadership clearly thinks differently. No other OTO wanted a fight, but were eventually forced into taking action to preserve their own unique visions. That action was initially successful, but unfortunately it's now been overturned on a minor legal technicality on appeal. Not a legal argument, or strength of case, mind you, but a technicality.
The only part of your post I disagree with is the "continuation of" etc. It can't be, simply because of the 7 year gap between Germer's death and McMurtry's revival, during which the OTO in the US was dead (if indeed it could still be considered alive under Germer's last years). Indeed, the Trademark findings draw a clear distinction between the "Applicant" (COTO) and the "society that called itself Ordo Templi Orientis in the early 20th Century", thus demonstrating that they are not one and the same.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 7:34 pm  

93 Alastrum

"Alastrum" wrote:
Let the people decide which Order to join, not remove all choices but one.

This is exactly the case with this recent legal ruling in place. The people have the choice of joining the OTO or joining another Order or joining none at all. Further, the people are relieved of the confusion of several choices all being labeled 'OTO.' I don't see the downside of this, from the perspective of the people. What am I missing?

93 93/93
Camlion


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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Posts: 1126
20/06/2008 7:45 pm  

Alastrum, you bend things around quite exquisitely. To refute everything you say would require more time and patience than I am prepared to give it. However, I could put up with that --- it's more that I find it distasteful than you invite for debate the question of why Starfire lost, and was it a minor technicality (no, the phrase was "points of law")? Perhaps Mick could share with you copies of the various documents relating to the trademark case, including those relating to membership numbers, and you might make a better hack.

Seriously, though, we could just move on with Thelema and forget this whole ghastly business. This wrangling over legalities has suddenly become deadly boring.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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Posts: 1126
20/06/2008 7:59 pm  
"noxlux" wrote:
While the description you give of the economics of the caliphate indeed sound modest enough ... since it sounds like you have some insight, please let me ask you: what have been the consequences of the caliphates legal actions in economical terms?

I have no idea on this one -- you heard in HB's announcement that some of it, at least, is confidential; but my feeling is that it's still at the stage of being an investment. You have to remember, though, that the aim is not creation of wealth, but to secure Baphomet's legacy in the Order he himself maintained. Or at least that's one way of looking at it.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
20/06/2008 8:58 pm  

On the whole, there has been a surprisingly positive feel to this thread. Many of us, myself included, would like this to continue. Could we therefore please take some of the developing heat out of this thread? There is a degree of rapprochment going on behind the scenes which could actually amount to something. Although there are issues of substance which need to be aired, we all know what they are and there is perhaps little advantage in repeating them ad nauseum at this particular time.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2008 9:00 pm  

I had thought this whole business was put to rest long ago in regards to the legal use of O.T.O. I cannot fathom what is still in debate here other than a desperate grab at pseudo-legitimacy on the part of some rather reclusive individuals. Those that are using a different system than what Crowley envisioned for O.T.O. should stop using that name and those letters. Its simple.

I am reminded of a quote by Crowley from Book Four:

The first step of the Aspirant toward the Gate of Initiation tells him that purity-unity of purpose-is essential above all else.

Having an innumerable amount of various O.T.O.'s around with different interpretations is certainly no unity of purpose. Those that believe other O.T.O.'s are needed do not fully understand the import or content of the O.T.O. degree rituals that Crowley left us. Nor could they have actually kept to their oaths. I've come to the conclusion that there is no goal in this dispersion except to give the unexceptional or egotistical the opportunity to add long winded titles to their names.

I am excited about the publication news, especially an accessible edition of the unabridged Magick Without Tears.


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
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Posts: 2077
20/06/2008 9:58 pm  

But not getting off topic Kch.. but wasnt Crowleys Beloved system the A .'. A .'. hence why all the papers/libers he wrote are dedicated too?


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ptoner
(@ptoner)
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Posts: 2077
20/06/2008 11:23 pm  

also could someone please confirm that the below statement is what the judge said in the closing statement.. if so then its not as clear cut as some would like you to believe.
"What of the argument that the Applicant will be obtaining a monopoly right that could be used to prevent the Opponent and others from using the term OTO? In the first place, it is not clear that the Applicant would be able to do so. The Act affords various defences that might apply. In the first place, the use of OTO as the name of an organisation may not amount to “use in the course of trade” or use “in relation to goods or services” as required by the infringement provisions in section 10. Secondly, there may be a descriptive use defence under section 11(2)(b) of the Act.(While I have held that the Marks are not descriptive of the goods and services for which the Applicant is seeking trade mark protection, that does not preclude the possibility that in certain circumstances the name OTO might be used descriptively by others.) Thirdly, there might be a defence based on earlier use in a particular locality under section 11(3). I say nothing about the merits of any such defence in a given situation, but I mention them because I do not think it is right to assume, as the Opponent claims, that neither it nor Albion OTO nor the OTOF would be able to use the name OTO again once the Marks were registered by the Applicant."


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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Posts: 375
21/06/2008 2:17 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

First there was the OTO before Crowley.
Then we could meaningfully say--there was Crowley's OTO.
For all intents and purposes, when I think of "OTO" it comes to mind for me,
that "It's AC's Legacy".

So anyone, belonging to an OTO that is supposed to be Crowley's OTO,
regardless of whether or not they believe it is "the one true OTO--he started"
should ask themselves, with an understanding of various changes made incidental by the passing of time: Is this OTO carrying out the work of AC? Is it faithful to Thelema as he expounded upon it?
Is it pretty much on the mark of doing what AC mandated "His OTO" do?
If they can honestly answer Yes, then I believe everything should, or can-- work out to their satisfaction and spiritual development.
So, if you belong to such an OTO, and it is meeting the criteria set forth by AC himself, then it's
a good OTO to belong too,---whether or not it is "the very OTO" that was re-created, re-directed, and re-charged by and through Him.
If it tries--with all it's might---to fulfill his criteria, and if such efforts to do so have met with great success--as discerned by an honest appraisal-- then the odds are it just might be "His OTO".

Now if you belong to an OTO--that vastly diverges from AC's plan, or "mission statement" for it---that does not of necessity mean that it can accurately be defined as "spurious", or not verily His OTO. Nor does such a divergence imply that such an OTO is Spiritually and Magically befrit of The Power To Initiate.
What it does mean, is that you should have a reasonably good explanation for such a vast divergence, if you are going to proclaim it "The Real bonafide OTO" as instigated by AC.

Nothing I have stated above seems particularly troublesome, far-fetched or unreasonable to me.
I myself am not a member of any organization called OTO....yet.

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/06/2008 4:36 am  

Walter, first of all, just to clarify, I am not associated with Eales and Bersson. I'm not even being hostile to you, you seem like a decent, if not passionate feller. I am independent. No glass house for me. On top of that, Bersson has been publishing his work for at least 16 years, Gold Coins, Precious Jewels, Sparkling Diamonds etc. have all been published and continue to be available from his website. They are not "Professionally" produced but they are done in a way he can afford. And hell, his website is filled with his writings. Whether you like them or not, whether you agree with him, at least he is actively pursuing the advancement (in his eyes) of Thelema.

As to Eales, there is a book of his and others essays on lulu.com that celebrates Warriors LVX, the official organ of HOOR and is a compilation of his essays from last 10+ years. On top of this he has a handful of pamphlets that he has written that may still be available via his address in Florida.

This is the second time you have said something innaccurate in this thread starting with your 1954 comment. As you say, do your homework.

Also, by the Caliphate numbers, there isn't ANY occult movement of comparison that matters! When I was in the S.O.T.O. the membership numbers in Cracow, Poland were well above 50 and when elements of the Brazilian movement joined up with him (this coming from his former representative in Brazil from my days as an Aeropagii in the UR-OTO) the numbers were much higher. In PIttsburgh the Achad Lodge was very strong and the A.'.A.'. even stronger. S.O.T.O.'s numbers are not going to be like the Caliphate's though, same with HOOR because unlike Crowley (not dissing here), Motta felt candidates should face real pass/fail tests in the initiation rituals. These are not easy tests, at least until you figure out the key to the rituals. You really do have to know what you want to succeed.

I was not dissing the OTO numbers in the my comment but expressing my understanding, an incorrect one that the Secretary corrected and I expressed gratitude in the matter. I may be a critic of the OTO but I am not as hostile as most, I have criticisms of every organization and my criticisms would remain the same whether I belonged to the OTO or not.

And just because you have been on usenet etc does not mean you have received a fair section of the average membership of the SOTO or HOOR. I found when I was in the SOTO that I was faced with hostility by about a third of the people I Met with people in the OTO saying "How does it feel that your order was founded by a fraud" to "the SOTO is fake" etc. just by the mention of my affiliation. That tends to put initiates of the Motta tradition on edge. The internet experience is not a very good means whereby to judge groups of people as people who post on the internet tend to fall into the vocal minority as opposed to the silent majority. There was a large contingent of the SOTO who wanted to keep Bersson OFF the internet because they knew the results were not going to be good. We had interacted with him, we knew him and how to take him. The outer world did not know how to take him. They wanted me to continue to be the unofficial voice of the SOTO on the internet at the time. My whole meme was who cares which OTO is THE OTO and lets work to develop Thelema in various interesting ways and help the current to grow rather than argue the point. It wasn't important anymore. My website reflected this attitude. I tried to treat people with respect and still continue to do so to this day. I try to respect my oaths. I slipped a couple times, but tried to rectify those slips. Take it or leave it. It was only inevitable that Bersson would get the internet and hell, he has that right.

In my experience the majority of SOTO and HOOR members don't care about the past, similar to my own attitude and most just want to do magick. You ask about THEIR writings, well, where are the writings of those 3700 OTO members. I don't mean point to Lon DuQuette and co. That is a very small percentage of people in such a large organization. Don't throw in some eggs if you don't have butter to cook them in.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/06/2008 3:36 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
"Alastrum" wrote:
Albion OTO is a dormant company, doesn't file accounts, so how many members can they have? They claim 24, but this is completely at odds with what I know of their current membership, and what I've been told by Rob (the true figure is about 7).

Not that it's any of your business, but you are confusing issues.

First, you are confusing a magical order with a company, the Albion OTO is a magical order that owns a company.

Secondly, you are confusing total Albion OTO active membership with membership of the lodge in London.

Due to the thorough nature of the Albion OTO degree tasks, we do not expect to have huge numbers of members who simply keep a magical record of anything they happen to want to do in order to advance through the degrees.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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21/06/2008 5:15 pm  
"sethur666" wrote:
Not that it's any of your business, but you are confusing issues.

I am pointing out a discrepancy between what I see given in evidence by Rob and what I've been told by Rob (as discussed below).

"sethur666" wrote:
First, you are confusing a magical order with a company, the Albion OTO is a magical order that owns a company.

Well, if you're paying initiation fees and dues then I think you ought to ask Rob where they are. Shouldn't he record dues & fees? Perhaps the Limited Company is inappropriately in "dormant" status? I really don't know...

"sethur666" wrote:
Secondly, you are confusing total Albion OTO active membership with membership of the lodge in London.

I'm talking about numbers of actual *initiates*, not merely people who are "associate" members who may live abroad and who simply happen to agree with your political stance and who don't pay dues. I wonder how many UR-OTO members joined? It's easy to make someone a "member" with an email.

"sethur666" wrote:
Due to the thorough nature of the Albion OTO degree tasks, we do not expect to have huge numbers of members who simply keep a magical record of anything they happen to want to do in order to advance through the degrees.

It's great that Rob insists on this kind of work, if he does.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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21/06/2008 5:43 pm  

ive been wondering. If Mr Curley got expelled from OTO while in the Lovers Triad, where does he get his Hermit Triad validation from? was it merely assumed? or does he claim the 8th and 9th from another source altogether?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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21/06/2008 6:16 pm  

Oh no please spare us all that again -- it's over on the news item for their "Super-Moot".


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 Anonymous
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21/06/2008 6:21 pm  

fair enough Ian...but i can only find reference to the Xth on that thread. I would have thought that when it came to 8 and 9 one would actually take some kind of initiation rather than "assume" as is with the Xth. I guess that upon assuming Xth the entire Triad is assumed.


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gurugeorge
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21/06/2008 6:35 pm  

I just hope that what comes out of this is excellent editions of Crowley works, properly annotated (by people with academic and initiatic experience), and editions of hitherto unpublished stuff (like the 40s diaries, etc.).

So far as the outside world is concerned, if there's a worthwile end to the O.T.O.'s fighting for what they believe to be their rights in this matter, surely this must be the result everybody who's interested in Crowley would like to see.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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21/06/2008 6:35 pm  

HocEstCorpus,

Well I don't know how imaginative Rob got with his "assumptions" but AFAIK they were just paper degrees.


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 Anonymous
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21/06/2008 6:36 pm  

thanks Ian.


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ianrons
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21/06/2008 6:37 pm  

Except maybe XI.


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joe93
(@joe93)
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21/06/2008 6:57 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
I just hope that what comes out of this is excellent editions of Crowley works, properly annotated (by people with academic and initiatic experience), and editions of hitherto unpublished stuff (like the 40s diaries, etc.).

So far as the outside world is concerned, if there's a worthwile end to the O.T.O.'s fighting for what they believe to be their rights in this matter, surely this must be the result everybody who's interested in Crowley would like to see.

Couldn't have put it better myself.
"We don't need your stinking badges" 8)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 3:53 am  
"ianrons" wrote:
I wonder how many UR-OTO members joined? It's easy to make someone a "member" with an email.

Just a note, it takes a lot more than an email to be a member of the UR-OTO. You are confusing lodges with the UR-OTO. During my time with the UR-OTO it was a collection of occult Lodge Masters working various OTO traditions and some who were doing their own thing. You had to be a Lodge Master to be a member of the UR-OTO and present information about your lodge, the work you were doing etc. Lodges were part of the UR-OTO but members of lodges weren't necessarily. THis may have changed in the last two or three years since I left. It also took a sponsor and a vote by the Aeropagus to determine whether you could bring your lodge under the umbrella and I know a few who were turned down. This could have changed in the last years though, like I said.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 6:57 am  
"uranus" wrote:
Just a note, it takes a lot more than an email to be a member of the UR-OTO...This could have changed in the last years though, like I said.

The basic procedure hasn't changed; membership is achieved the same way now. A minor revision have been made that makes it slightly more difficult to join UR-OTO nowadays: an eight-month waiting period has been added, during which the applicant -- who has to be either a Lodge Master or a member of the Sovereign Sanctuary of the Gnosis -- undergoes a screening process. The details are in Article 7 of the UR-OTO Constitution:

http://www.ur-oto.com/data/const.pdf


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 8:19 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
This is exactly the case with this recent legal ruling in place. The people have the choice of joining the OTO or joining another Order or joining none at all. Further, the people are relieved of the confusion of several choices all being labeled 'OTO.' I don't see the downside of this, from the perspective of the people. What am I missing?

Camlion

Respectfully speaking, if the people you're hoping to attract aren't smart enough to tell the difference between the Typhonian OTO and the COTO without mommy legal system giving them guidance you may want to raise your standards.

The way I see it, all of this stuff is about maintaining a monopoly in the U.S. on what Thelema is. Keep out the competitors by just not telling people about alternatives and they won't question what's in front of them.

The U.S. OTO has a lot of members, but would it have that many if there were real alternatives?

I agree with the poster who pointed out that the SOTO derived stuff and the Typhonian material, and things derived from them, are about the most vital currents out there. Although small, there have been several alternatives to the E.G.C. founded in the U.S. as well as alternate O.T.Os, although they may not call themselves that.

The Horus/Maat Lodge, home of Nema, is something that should be noted as well, as should the old online postings from the Bate Cabal.

This whole thing is the future, the place where people are visibly doing creative work.

******

One thought: do you ever get the feeling that the COTO pressing this copyright stuff is kind of like the Catholic Church suing the Lutherans for illegitimate use of the idea of a "Christian Church", because clearly the Catholics have their lineage and the Lutherans are the upstarts.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
22/06/2008 9:40 am  

93 Camlion,

"Camlion" wrote:
This is exactly the case with this recent legal ruling in place. The people have the choice of joining the OTO or joining another Order or joining none at all.

With all due respect, this decision was simply one to allow a trademark application to proceed to registration. The Trademark Registry noted but did not rule on the assertion of OTO Inc that they alone were the O.T.O. The Registry also noted that there were several OTOs in existence. What the Registry did decide, in essence, was that they are more visible in the market-place and hence entitled to the trademark. I would urge anyone interested in the parameters of this case to read the decision which is available in PDF.

Clearly this decision by the Trademark Registry has significance. However, let's keep it in perspective and not make of it something more than it actually is.

93 93 / 93

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
22/06/2008 12:30 pm  

gurugeorge,

"gurugeorge" wrote:
I just hope that what comes out of this is excellent editions of Crowley works, properly annotated (by people with academic and initiatic experience), and editions of hitherto unpublished stuff (like the 40s diaries, etc.).

I rather doubt that Bill Breeze has been spending his every waking moment on this trademark case for the last few years, at the expense of his editing work. Equally, therefore, I doubt that a plethora of published works will "come out of this". It might be that there are a number of works in an advanced stage of preparation which will now come out in short order, but either way there's no connection with the trademark case.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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gurugeorge
(@gurugeorge)
Member
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22/06/2008 12:46 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
gurugeorge,

"gurugeorge" wrote:
I just hope that what comes out of this is excellent editions of Crowley works, properly annotated (by people with academic and initiatic experience), and editions of hitherto unpublished stuff (like the 40s diaries, etc.).

I rather doubt that Bill Breeze has been spending his every waking moment on this trademark case for the last few years, at the expense of his editing work. Equally, therefore, I doubt that a plethora of published works will "come out of this". It might be that there are a number of works in an advanced stage of preparation which will now come out in short order, but either way there's no connection with the trademark case.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Well, in the best light, they are fighting for what they believe to be their legitimate, historical (Crowley-given) right to the name, lamen, copyrights, etc.

In the most jaundiced light, they're merely fighting for commercial rights of exploitation.

Either way, the best thing that could come out of it would be high quality Crowley editions. (In the best light, because that's what they'd want to do if they were sincere, in the worst light, because if they want to make money they'd make the most money, in the long run, by producing unimpeachable editions.)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 2:38 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
The Trademark Registry noted but did not rule on the assertion of OTO Inc that they alone were the O.T.O. The Registry also noted that there were several OTOs in existence. What the Registry did decide, in essence, was that they are more visible in the market-place and hence entitled to the trademark. I would urge anyone interested in the parameters of this case to read the decision which is available in PDF.
.

I read the decision as saying there are several groups using the letters OTO in existence in the UK. The decision never crosses into whether any of the groups are performing such acts and activities as to have an accurate claim to being an honest to goodness OTO or what that criterion may be. However, it does say that in the marketplace of OTOs in the UK, TOTO and UR-OTO were not seen as having a legitimate claim to use the letters OTO.

I agree the decision is well worth reading. I admire the hearing officer's impartiality and reason. While this is a Trademark case on it's face, in the UK microcosm of Thelema it recognizes a clear identity of the OTO.

I was personally very pleased that PK's work was cited in the decision as shallow and unsubstantiated. Perhaps this will save future litigants from citing his work and expecting a rational, reasonable hearing officer to accept it as gospel.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1126
22/06/2008 3:06 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
Just a note, it takes a lot more than an email to be a member of the UR-OTO. You are confusing lodges with the UR-OTO. During my time with the UR-OTO it was a collection of occult Lodge Masters working various OTO traditions and some who were doing their own thing. You had to be a Lodge Master to be a member of the UR-OTO and present information about your lodge, the work you were doing etc. Lodges were part of the UR-OTO but members of lodges weren't necessarily. THis may have changed in the last two or three years since I left. It also took a sponsor and a vote by the Aeropagus to determine whether you could bring your lodge under the umbrella and I know a few who were turned down. This could have changed in the last years though, like I said.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about members of UR-OTO gaining some kind of paper membership of Albion OTO, perhaps as some kind of gesture of support in the TM case.


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Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 342
22/06/2008 6:30 pm  

"Now, having provoked us..." is somewhat bothersome to me. I am certainly biased in my great admiration for Mr.Kenneth Grant and his Great Work, but it seems to me that an element of hostility exists in the U.S.-based O.T.O. where it should not, and that Grant, being a direct disciple of Crowley himself, has as much of a right to these spiritual devices (spiritual, that is, not corporate) as they do...especially considering the tenuous nature of the succession in the historical framework of the Caliphate. In my opinion, the interests of establishing the Law of Thelema globally (as was always Crowley's mission) should take priority over any mundane sectarianist agenda. Why waste all this money on litigational in-fighting? Ugh.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 6:41 pm  

The marketplace of OTOs in the UK? I am aware of one in the marketplace. I am aware of one in the temple. I know where I prefer to be.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 6:43 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
HocEstCorpus,

Well I don't know how imaginative Rob got with his "assumptions" but AFAIK they were just paper degrees.

Apart from the actual ritual, degrees are pieces of paper as far as anyone in a court or tribunal would be able to tell. The real degree is spiritual.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 6:48 pm  
"sethur666" wrote:
The marketplace of OTOs in the UK? I am aware of one in the marketplace. I am aware of one in the temple. I know where I prefer to be.

The decision is from a hearing officer concerned with granting of trademarks and the use of names/images in the marketplace hence her references to it.

Have you read the decision?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1126
22/06/2008 8:16 pm  
"sethur666" wrote:
Apart from the actual ritual, degrees are pieces of paper as far as anyone in a court or tribunal would be able to tell. The real degree is spiritual.

Someone might infer from what you say that it makes no difference whether or not you've gone through the initiation ritual. Indeed I understand you've stated this belief in the past.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/06/2008 10:31 pm  

Nightside wrote,
The way I see it, all of this stuff is about maintaining a monopoly in the U.S. on what Thelema is.

Isn't it rather more about maintaining a monopoly in the U.K. on what OTO is?


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