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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/05/2010 9:19 pm  

93,

I have admired this man ever since I started my magickal studies. Even though I consider, with all due respect to each individuals oppinion of him, a key figure in occultism, Thelema (although he considered himself a Golden Dawn magician and not a Thelemite per se), and Magick in general, I have encountered many people who don't really value Regardie and are highly critical of him. I would like to know your opinion of Regardie as a magician, and figure of Golden Dawn and Thelema.

Also, is the Golden Dawn still active? Any way to contact them?

93 93/93


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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02/05/2010 9:38 pm  
"Varzon" wrote:
93,

I have admired this man ever since I started my magickal studies. Even though I consider, with all due respect to each individuals oppinion of him, a key figure in occultism, Thelema (although he considered himself a Golden Dawn magician and not a Thelemite per se), and Magick in general, I have encountered many people who don't really value Regardie and are highly critical of him. I would like to know your opinion of Regardie as a magician, and figure of Golden Dawn and Thelema.

One of the "Grand Old Men" here in the U.S. when he was alive. Dr. Regardie was highly respected. And you've got to remember that his edits and deletions of Magick Without Tears, The Law Is For All, and Gems From The Equinox (among others) were subtly very influential on minds that didn't know they were being influenced-- very few people have the 1954 "Magic Without Tears" edition to compare Regardie's edit to, line for line. Read Motta's Oriflamme Series Nos. 3 & 4, IIRC, where he comments on an unedited MWT, pointing out the sections that Regardie edited, and why he believes that Regardie made the change in question, what his dark ulterior motives were behind the expurgation of the words of The Beast!

"Varzon" wrote:
Also, is the Golden Dawn still active? Any way to contact them?

There are several claimants to the name "Golden Dawn" that are active. Their lineages, or lack thereof, are a matter of record. I recommend you do some homework.


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alysa
(@alysa)
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02/05/2010 9:40 pm  

To my opinion, Regardie was important as he gave an interesting biography of Crowley with interesting psychological views, also when I started first reading books relating to magick I found Regardie quite elevating, that reveals itself to you when you read things like "The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic" for example, it seems really elevating to me at least, I'm very happy that you started this thread, to me he makes magick more explanable, I think he made a few psychologically and otherwise errors, but he remains of value to me, I think there are many branches of the Golden Dawn.


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ZIN
 ZIN
(@zin)
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02/05/2010 10:42 pm  

For me, Israel Regardie writings are all gems, and his presentation and representation of Crowley is grounded, rounded, and centered. I do believe Crowley would approve and more so than with others who have distilled his (Crowley's) writings, thoughts, and life. It took me many years to appreciate and come to the realization for the value and honesty of Israel Regardie's work.

Years ago I would never have thought I would write such words... (Maturity?)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/05/2010 10:45 pm  

93,

Personally I find Regardie a better psychologist and al-chemist than a magus. This oft neglected aspect of his work intrigues me more than his breaking his oath and publishing Golden Dawn material. I use his middle pillar exercise daily side by side with the solar adorations of the Thelemites.

I would like to see more material published on his hand in influencing Dr. Christopher Hyatt and the whole Original Falcon brand of western tantra, Reichian chiropractic techniques and all around general psychopathic outlaw ethos that reminds me so much of Easy Rider.

The Tree of Life was the first occult text that I ever purchased and i still refer to it to this day.

Love is the law love under will


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alysa
(@alysa)
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14/07/2010 12:23 am  

Israel Regardie to me is most important because he stresses upon the value of Relaxation, I think before doing any ritual (magickal) work one might be considering Relaxation first, d'you also think so, I think in these times people have or do not want to take time anymore for Relaxation, according to Israel Regardie it is of the most importance, I also think that if one is able to let thoughts go and just Relax it will be better for the Individual in question to be ready for all kinds of difficulties that Life itself prepares for every one of us, I think he was just a great Psychologist noticing that very simple and true fact.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/08/2010 7:37 am  

My opinions of Regardie fluctuate, but I had noticed in recent years he seems to be disappearing somewhat. Perhaps it's just my own experience, and that Falcon Press/New Falcon/Original Falcon played such a role in my early occult reading, but there seemed a time when one could barely pick up a book by or about Crowley without an introduction, preface, editing, or something by Regardie. But aside from an offhand comment in a Speech in the Silence podcast, I can't remember the last time I saw or heard a Thelemite publication even mention him. Has anyone else noticed this?


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Alan_OBrien
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24/08/2010 9:05 am  

Regardie has always been one of my favourite writers but people sometimes forget that he did a complete recording of the Enochian Calls. These are really a gem. Regardie does them quite informally; a short introduction, a cough, as if he was a smoker, and he launches into them.

What surprised me was how Regardie had kept his London accent. He sounds like an old geezer in an East End pub who accosts people with "'Ere. D'you wannoo 'ear some Enochian calls, mate?"


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/08/2010 1:59 pm  
"ansat" wrote:
My opinions of Regardie fluctuate, but I had noticed in recent years he seems to be disappearing somewhat. Perhaps it's just my own experience, and that Falcon Press/New Falcon/Original Falcon played such a role in my early occult reading, but there seemed a time when one could barely pick up a book by or about Crowley without an introduction, preface, editing, or something by Regardie. But aside from an offhand comment in a Speech in the Silence podcast, I can't remember the last time I saw or heard a Thelemite publication even mention him. Has anyone else noticed this?

An interesting observation. There are probably a number of reasons for this. Firstly, Regardie once famously said "I'm a Golden Dawn man, not a Thelemite!". Perhaps he was too close to Crowley the man and suffered from Crowley's very bitter anti-semitic remarks about him after their falling out, to feel particularly close to Crowley's cult on a personal level.

Whatever Regardie's reasons for this stated position, he did not call himself a Thelemite, though obviously he was an ally of Thelema (which he saw as a child of the Golden Dawn), and was a great admirer and crucial early champion of Crowley's work. As you mention, he (like Kenneth Grant and the others) was the editor of many pivotal early re-publications of Crowley's occult writings and instructions during the fecund period before "O.T.O. Inc." monopoly arose (which occurred through purchase of the copyright to Crowley's work). Perhaps this explains part of it. My views of Regardie's editing of Crowley has varied greatly (I particularly loathe the job he did of the stupidly-entitled "Roll Away the Stone", a collection of Crowley's writings on pot, with his (not Crowley's!) name on the spine! despite the fact all he wrote in it was the -totally forgettable- Introduction; but I have to say that imo his job on Gems from the Equinox was absolutely what the doctor ordered - zero pretence, and full disclosure. More than some can say.

It says something, doesn't it, about the state of things from 1947 until the eighties, that it took a non-Thelemite former secretary of Crowley who fell out with the Beast, to collect and re-publish the official instructions of the A.A. in such a manner. Certainly gives the lie to the various posturings around the copyright issues these days.

I got a bit sick of Regardie during the nineties for precisely the reasons you mention, and I didn't particularly like the Falcon Press house style that much. Reviewing his writings now, I'm struck by the sincerity, wisdom, and clarity of much (if perhaps not all) of his thought. He made a vital, massive contribution to the early years of the Aeon of the Child, and was a valuable -and venerable- independant voice on Thelema and related matters. I'm very grateful for his legacy.


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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24/08/2010 4:01 pm  

I'd look *very closely* at the people claiming the lineage. There's a few people (Joshua Seraphim comes to mind) who will claim just about anything, Regardie A.'.A.'. lineage, Regardie O.T.O. lineage, whatever they think you want to hear.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
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24/08/2010 4:19 pm  
"wolf354" wrote:
... what is your opinion that Regardie was running an A.:A:. branch (a mention in wikipedia for instance)?

It seems rather improbable. Regardie was GD in his texts and affiliations, and AC in his reprints of Crowley's stuff plus his "Introduction" or "Preface" or "Comment," but there's little (none that I have seen) evidence that he was "running" any kind of a formal A.'.A.'. operation ... but one never knows with these secretive Thelemites.


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Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
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24/08/2010 5:13 pm  

ansat wrote: "My opinions of Regardie fluctuate, but I had noticed in recent years he seems to be disappearing somewhat....Has anyone else noticed this?"

In The Eye in the Triangle, Regardie expressed his suspicion that, because he dared to comment on The Book of the Law so blatantly, he might be shunned by Thelemic authority and his works eventually forgotten as a consequence. The final chapter to his book is particularly noteworthy in this regard.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2010 5:31 am  
"wolf354" wrote:
93,

"Noctifer" wrote:
...

By the way ... what is your opinion that Regardie was running an A.:A:. branch (a mention in wikipedia for instance)?
Best regards,

Hi wolf354,

I have no personal opinion or knowledge about any of this - see Walterfive's comments above. Regardie is known to have said that he himself was "not a Thelemite" (I can't presently remember where, but I did read it - although he certainly regarded Thelema as containing a great deal of value, but ultimately he saw it as secondary to the Golden Dawn, which in a certain sense it definitely is); and I do remember reading (although who knows where, now!) many years ago that he was never at any time even remotely interested in joining Crowley's O.T.O., either before or after A.C.'s death, and wanted nothing to do with it. It might have been in a R.A. Wilson book.

It may be that, as a highly visible Adept, he was approached by students of Crowley's AA system (in books printed by Regardie) for guidance on technical matters, given the debt that the latter owes to the GD, and the fact that the AA "as such" had by that time ceased to function.

best Regardies,
N


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/08/2010 7:15 am  

93,

I recently completed "The Eye in the Triangle" and consider it an excellent approach to Aleister Crowley. There, not only the data of his life are presented, but a look behind the many personas of AC is attempted. The book serves as an excellent introduction into the Golden Dawn system and Thelema as well. I am still quite enthusiastic about the book.

Regarding Regardie as author I am torn. I value his own original writings, including "Twelve Steps to Spiritual Enlightenment" and "Ritual Magic", on the other hand, what he got famous for was the publication of other people's (the Golden Dawn) material.

I have read that Regardie is buried in Sedona, Arizona. Is it known where exactly?

Eilthireach


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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18/03/2011 11:04 am  

I would echo your sentiments regarding the 'Eye in The Triangle' it is IMO a very interesting book and an engaging portrait of Crowley that attempts to acknowledge Regardies own biases and provides a good intro to the Golden Dawn.

I would also be interested to find out more about Regardies influence on Hyatt - from most of Hyatts writings he seems to definately regard him as his central 'guru' (although that term does not really fit that well) .. I had a go at the Reichian techniques that Regardie developed a few times a week for a year, and found them extremely beneficial, intensely powerful and cathartic.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/03/2011 4:39 pm  

I've posted elsewhere my opinions on Eye in the Triangle. I read it as an introduction to Crowley studies and as I got further into Crowley's work following the reading I read it again and was astounded by the flaws that could have been alleviated through very simple and basic research. At one point he makes the statement that the A.'.A.'. does not use initiation rituals when just perusing the Libri listing in Magick would reveal not one but THREE rituals of initiation for that Order and by the listing two of them are group ceremonies and in reality all three are group ceremonies! The whole chapter on Crowley's 5=6 motto is now rubbish and I personally believe there is a case of a lot of projection by Regardie onto Crowley's character to justify his own conflicted feelings on Crowley.

In my opinion Regardie himself needed a good editor. It has been a long time since I tried to bore through Garden of Pomegranates where he would be writing about one thing and then go on a tangent about another.

That being said and merely my opinion I also found Regardie's work invaluable. His introduction to the Golden Dawn seems of the utmost value to one seeking to engage in the Great Work and his introduction to Complete Golden Dawn carries the same weight to me as well. Middle Pillar to me is an invaluable work, partially bridging the gap between psychology and magick. It certainly makes me wonder where he would have gone on the topic were he to have explored the Quantum model as a further bridge in that work and the integration of Leary's work.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/03/2011 6:14 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
At one point he makes the statement that the A.'.A.'. does not use initiation rituals when just perusing the Libri listing in Magick would reveal not one but THREE rituals of initiation for that Order and by the listing two of them are group ceremonies and in reality all three are group ceremonies!

Well, as with 'Gems of the Eqx,' his perspective was that the A.'.A.'. should survive as a system of self-Initiation, at least, which it has for many, as well as being an active group Initiatory Order system/s. His perspective on the GD was similar.

"uranus" wrote:
In my opinion Regardie himself needed a good editor.

He was not really the best AC editor either, partly due to lack of resources, no doubt, but his intentions were good, imo.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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19/03/2011 1:41 am  

My issue though is that he SAYS that the A.'.A.'. had no initiation ceremonies, not that he said it should be a system of self-initiation. He makes a bald-faced statement that even a glance will reveal isn't true.


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OKontrair
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19/03/2011 2:35 am  

In the 1970s I used to correspond with Israel Regardie. I found him very helpful and open to criticism. His editing of Crowley's work was very light. He missed the nursery rhyme section out of his 1969 edition of Book Four parts 1 & 2 but put it back in for the 1972 edition. Yoga he gave us straight, even to the extent of not including the one known typo. AHA and The Holy Books were unchanged in any way that I can detect. The Vision and the Voice was taken from a carbon copy of the typescript that he personally typed for Crowley. The only departure was making into English the foreign alphabets and astrological symbols and this was done to reduce typesetting expense.

The omission of some of the end matter from the 1972 (and later) Equinoxes was, I believe, due to the publisher Weiser rather than Regardie himself. Gems (1974) was a compilation and choosing the contents is a legitimate editorial prerogative. These Regardie editions were at the time a welcome, cheap, undiluted and almost the only source of what today is to be had so easily.

The modern style of deeply academic analytical editing is a matter of taste. Personally I find Crowley plain and simple perfectly adequate.

Does it not seem more than probable that Regardie's account of initiation reflects the informality of his own personal experience in Paris in 1928 with Crowley himself.

OK


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/03/2011 10:29 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
In the 1970s I used to correspond with Israel Regardie.

As did I.

"OKontrair" wrote:
The modern style of deeply academic analytical editing is a matter of taste. Personally I find Crowley plain and simple perfectly adequate.

Adequate, perhaps, but I believe that the modern reader benefits from knowing if an AC work cited by Crowley, for example, is extant or not, or if there are actually three versions extant, and so on.

"OKontrair" wrote:
Does it not seem more than probable that Regardie's account of initiation reflects the informality of his own personal experience in Paris in 1928 with Crowley himself.

I think it has more to do with Regardie seeking to leave a blueprint of the A.'.A.'. System for future use by individuals in self-Initiation, in the very likely event that the organization did not survive as intended; similar to Crowley's 'Rosetta Stone' goal for the Eqx. itself.


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AdoniaZanoni
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21/03/2011 4:43 am  

I can say without Israel Regardie, there may not be as many people interested in the Golden Dawn. I always have to go back to both of his versions of the Golden Dawn for study and research. The Tree of Life, Ceremonial Magic, the Middle Pillar and the Philosopher's Stone are other gems worth studying. Regardie was never egotistical in his writings and appeared to be sincere on helping people understand Ceremonial Magic and the Golden Dawn system.

I find it hard to believe the Regardie started or ran an A.'.A.'. Regardie claimed he was not Thelemite from what I read. But I am always willing to be proved wrong, anything is possible.

The only disappointing issue I had was Regardie collaborating with Robert Wang over the Golden Dawn tarot. I wish Regardie would have worked with a better artist. The water colors are weak and the draftsmanship was lacking. There are 3 other Golden decks that I find disappointing.

I am waiting for the Ra Horakhty Tarot, but it appears this deck has been delayed. I was hoping the deck would follow the King and Queen Scale, not the flashing colors. The deck is under the supervision of Pat Zalewski.
http://www.rahorakhtytarot.com/#

The most hilarious comments I read about Regardie was in the Golden Equinox Volume V No.4 by Motta. Motta reviews Eye in the Triangle and quotes a letter from Karl Germer. I have never seen the letter from Germer, so I do not if Germer really wrote this: “He was eager and hard working. We agreed to hire him, sent him to Paris as secretary to A.C. He lived there for three years, and later in London. 666 put him through severe test, and he fell down. He separated from the Great Work, went back to California and lives there a shameful life. All that he knows was from Crowley. Yet in the books that he has written it is as if it was Regardie who was the big I Am! He speaks condescendingly of his master, who initiated him only in lower things. So Regardie is spiritually dead, rotting on the spot where 666 had permitted him to go. If you read Zanoni, he represents Glyndon, I think the name is. This and possibly further incarnations are doomed for him.”

While this is an unfair assessment of Regardie, after his tenure with Crowley he was able to join the Stella Matutina progress successfully through this order. I noticed Regardie practiced and used Enochian Chess, I cannot recollect if Crowley ever did Enochian Chess.

As for the Golden Dawn orders of today, there are two that stand out in my mind.
Chic Cicero runs a Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. He opened his Golden Dawn Temple under the direction of Israel Regardie.

The other one is the one David Griffin represents. Both this one and Cicero’s own the trademark name of the Golden Dawn. What astounds me about Griffin is this order claims to be a descendant of Mathers’ Alpha and Omega, which operates in France where Mathers spent the end of his life. I do not know how this could be historically proved. They claim they have the ceremonies and connections for the third order. They make claims such as Regardie was not really in the ‘real’ Golden Dawn, but the Stella Matutina. At one point from my recollection there was a lecture debating Crowley receiving an Adeptus Minor grade from Mathers.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
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21/03/2011 7:44 am  
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
I find it hard to believe the Regardie started or ran an A.'.A.'. Regardie claimed he was not Thelemite from what I read. But I am always willing to be proved wrong, anything is possible.

I believe it is the Cicero's which has promoted the mantra that Regardie was not a Thelemite. Others who knew and collaborated with him, like Hyatt declared to me that he was. I am not aware of Regardie denying during the last two decades that he was a Thelemite, so I suppose the jury is still out on that one.

As for running an A.'.A.'. branch. Regardie was a Probationer of the A.'.A.'. and received by Crowley as his superior. According to himself his little venture in Stella Matutina was considered (erroneously so in my opinion as the tasks is different) by Regardie to have been his completion of his Outer College and reception into the grade of Adeptus Minor of the A.'.A.'.

Consequently he did receive (frauduluently so as no Probationer are allowed to do this if not authorized to do so in the name of his receiving Neophyte) several Probatioers in the Order and like with the Golden Dawn branches did give his "blessings" to these people to receive their own aspirants. I suppose this is where the claims for an Regardie A.'.A.'. comes from.

The other one is the one David Griffin represents. Both this one and Cicero’s own the trademark name of the Golden Dawn. What astounds me about Griffin is this order claims to be a descendant of Mathers’ Alpha and Omega, which operates in France where Mathers spent the end of his life. I do not know how this could be historically proved. They claim they have the ceremonies and connections for the third order. They make claims such as Regardie was not really in the ‘real’ Golden Dawn, but the Stella Matutina. At one point from my recollection there was a lecture debating Crowley receiving an Adeptus Minor grade from Mathers.

That Regardie never belonged to the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is true. Stella Matutina was a descendant of the splinter groups. Griffin's claim to be a continuation of Mather's Alpha et Omega Temple is however an outlandish claim, considering no evidence has been put fort for it. His claims to be in contact with the third Order is a spiritual claim (even if Griffin insists it isn't) as is his claim that he has the real secrets of the second and third Order. That is something for each to decide for themselves.

It is also true that he promoted the erroneous notion that Crowley never received the Adeptus Minor grade in France. So far he has offered nothing but conjectures (Crowley received Bennett's notebooks and consequently used that to give the impression that he was an Adeptus Minor) and unsubstantiated claims (Crowley's name and initiation unlike all others are not recorded in the Golden Book of Mather's temple) and overlooks the fact that Mathers tried to stop Crowley from publishing the Adeptus Minor grade ritual not because of violation of copyright (he denied having written it as it came from the Secret Chiefs), but violation of contract through his oath as an Adeptus Minor.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
21/03/2011 11:47 am  
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
The most hilarious comments I read about Regardie was in the Golden Equinox Volume V No.4 by Motta. Motta reviews Eye in the Triangle and quotes a letter from Karl Germer. I have never seen the letter from Germer, so I do not if Germer really wrote this: “He was eager and hard working. We agreed to hire him, sent him to Paris as secretary to A.C. He lived there for three years, and later in London. 666 put him through severe test, and he fell down. He separated from the Great Work, went back to California and lives there a shameful life. All that he knows was from Crowley. Yet in the books that he has written it is as if it was Regardie who was the big I Am! He speaks condescendingly of his master, who initiated him only in lower things. So Regardie is spiritually dead, rotting on the spot where 666 had permitted him to go. If you read Zanoni, he represents Glyndon, I think the name is. This and possibly further incarnations are doomed for him.”

It sounds like the sort of thing Germer would write to those he regarded as apostates. He wrote a similar blood-curdling letter to Jones in 1948, and reinforced the sentiments about Jones in letters to Yorke around the same time.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
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21/03/2011 12:13 pm  

Regardie denied being a Thelemite in Eye in the Triangle. Nevertheless, he did provide us with an invaluable account of Crowley from the privileged perspective he enjoyed for a time, as well as a few interesting insights. I for one am thankful for that much.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/03/2011 12:45 pm  
"Karl Germer, quoted by Michael Staley, quoted by AdonaiZanoni" wrote:
He {Regardie} separated from the Great Work, went back to California and lives there a shameful life.

LOL!

All that he knows was from Crowley.

I could have sworn he went through the Stella Matutina (i.e. the GD, which Crowley was kicked out of)...

So Regardie is spiritually dead, rotting on the spot where 666 had permitted him to go.

This is SO telling!

Oh yeah, Karl, and you really kept powering on, didn't you, you big Thelemic hero! So innovative and inspirational! All those continuations of Crowley's work, all that uncharted territory thoroughly ploughed! All that history brought to light! Oh, wait - why has nobody ever heard of you except as an utterly boring non-event of a footnote to the much more interesting story of Israel Regardie - SORRY - Aleister Crowley?

Regardie was much more effective at making Crowley's work and ideas available, of clearing the bullshit hysteria of the John Bull sort that had crept up, and most importanlty of all, of providing an independent viewpoint with no vested interests in whitewash or sycophancy. Regardie appreciated Crowley's genius precisely because he knew the flaws first-hand. Despite Crowley's pathetic (but hilarious!) insults about R's Jewish heritage, the latter spent a considerable effort publishing excellent editions of some of his most important work (and some crap editions too), but more importanly, he made it abundantly clear by his GD books that Crowley was part of an ongoing process, that so much of Crowley's work was actually GD material, or constructed with its fabric, at least initially.

He had massive flaws himself, as do we all. But seriously, Germer bores the shit out of me. I hesitate to equate "rotting spiritually" with "boring the shit out of Noctifer" but then I think "rotting spiritually" a pretentious thing to say about anyone, much less someone so clearly dedicated to the Tradition he loved and found his Path in, as Israel Regardie.

If you read Zanoni, he represents Glyndon, I think the name is. This and possibly further incarnations are doomed for him.”

Lulz galore!


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4052
21/03/2011 1:47 pm  
"Aleisterion" wrote:
Regardie denied being a Thelemite in Eye in the Triangle. Nevertheless, he did provide us with an invaluable account of Crowley from the privileged perspective he enjoyed for a time, as well as a few interesting insights. I for one am thankful for that much.

I haven't read The Eye in the Triangle for decades now, but had an extremely high regard for it when first coming across it in the early 1970s. Definitely one of the best studies of Crowley I've come across. Nothing else by Regardie had the same impact on me.

Like Jones and Yorke, working with Crowley seems to have left him with an ambiguous attitude, admiring the mystic, magician and writer but being wary of the man.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
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21/03/2011 7:07 pm  

Michael Staley wrote: "I haven't read The Eye in the Triangle for decades now, but had an extremely high regard for it when first coming across it in the early 1970s. Definitely one of the best studies of Crowley I've come across. Nothing else by Regardie had the same impact on me."

The book served as my introduction to Crowley and impressed me a great deal as well. It delves into Crowley's works and initiations with extraordinary depth. And there are stories one can find nowhere else. I'm glad that he wrote it.


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dyulax
(@dyulax)
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Posts: 18
21/03/2011 9:07 pm  

"The Eye in the Triangle" really seems strange about A.·.A.·.. I can't be sure if he was or was not a Thelemite, but there are some informations here and there:

Tom Whitmore says in his "Raiders of Lost Basement" (1984):

He was a very nice man, and the first person who acted as if he believed the thelemic doctrine, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”

James Eshelman says in Heruraha forum:

[...] he did say in conversation and in correspondence that he had attained to the K&C of the HGA. He separately said something else on another occassion, and it seems to say the same thing: Though he was received as a Probationer in A.'.A.'., he was never initiated to Neophyte, so held that he had never been "in the A.'.A.'." - but he did say that he had worked its curriculum step by step on his own. (My favorite visit with him included a few minutes when he and I did a "duelling banjos" type of quoting parts of Liber LXV and Liber VII back and forth at each other with ever widening grins.)

And Regardie in "An interview with Israel Regardie" by Christopher Hyatt:

But Crowley was alive when I was still a young man, and without going into a number of details, I met him to become his secretary for some few years, and had a good deal of contact with him. From him I learned a very, very great deal. What I learned from him is very difficult to put into words. I don't think 1 learned a great deal of magic from him; I did learn a great deal of magic from his writings. The Equinox especially. I soaked myself in the volumes of the Equinox for years, and knew them backwards and forwards, inside out, etc. Crowley somehow had an enormous maturing effect on me. I was a young boy when I met him, I had just turned 20. Somehow, in his own inimitable way. he helped me to grow up and become something of an adult. I owe him a very, very great deal, a very great deal. Later we fell out, which was due to my own stupidity. After I recovered from my annoyance of a quarrel with him, I reestablished my admiration for him, and my love, if you like and still hold him in the highest esteem, although I am a great deal more objective about him now than I ever was before.

....and his Thelemic (ill-edited) publications:

* Magick Without Tears
* Gems from the Equinox
* The Holy Books
* The Law is for All (why this?)

If he was an A.'.A.'. member, I think that he was not "regular" on the paper (like Germer wasn't).

And about Gerald Suster, his "follower"?


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Michael Staley
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21/03/2011 10:11 pm  
"dyulax" wrote:
And about Gerald Suster, his "follower"?

What are you trying to say here?


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einDoppelganger
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22/03/2011 12:58 am  
"dyulax" wrote:
....and his Thelemic (ill-edited) publications:

At least he was editing and putting the work out there. Were it not for his "ill-edited" versions of those books you would have no "Magick Without Tears" or "Gems" for that matter.

Regardie has his rough points but he did a hell of a service to Crowley with his work.. he did a hell of a disservice to him as well when the Liber AL manuscript surfaced in a San Francisco bookshop basement...

S


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 Anonymous
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22/03/2011 1:14 am  

I liked him, myself, and the coolest thing that he ever put into print, imo, were the two excerpts from AC works that he paired at the end of the first chapter of Eye; works that were not meant to be so paired but that summed up both AC and Thelema for me.


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dyulax
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22/03/2011 4:09 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"dyulax" wrote:
And about Gerald Suster, his "follower"?

What are you trying to say here?

I am asking for information about Gerald Suster, allegedly his "follower" in the A.'.A.'.:

A.'.A.'. - Israel Regardie via Gerald Suster via Frater Alion lineage: Astron Argon. A lineage operating in Serbia, Croatia, Greece, Poland and Norway.

* * *

"einDoppelganger" wrote:
"dyulax" wrote:
....and his Thelemic (ill-edited) publications:

At least he was editing and putting the work out there. Were it not for his "ill-edited" versions of those books you would have no "Magick Without Tears" or "Gems" for that matter.

Regardie has his rough points but he did a hell of a service to Crowley with his work.. he did a hell of a disservice to him as well when the Liber AL manuscript surfaced in a San Francisco bookshop basement...

S

I agree, and I admire him, but his work as an editor is still bad. English is not my language, I don't mean "the worst", just "not so good" - he could be better and more carefull.


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Michael Staley
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22/03/2011 2:22 pm  
"dyulax" wrote:
I am asking for information about Gerald Suster, allegedly his "follower" in the A.'.A.'.

I've never heard of this lineage before. Gerald Suster took an interest in Regardie, doubtless because of the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley connections. I think he got some sort of charter to found a lodge, and wrote a book entitled Crowley's Apprentice. I knew Gerald quite well socially over a number of years, and never got the impression that he regarded himself as a "follower" of Regardie.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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dyulax
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22/03/2011 8:53 pm  

Oh, of course. My poor english again. I mean, does someone know some information about Gerald Suster SUCCESSORSHIP in the A.·.A.·. through Israel Regardie and their connection? I think there is no "paper legitimacy", but I would like to know some history.


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AdoniaZanoni
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24/04/2012 3:09 pm  

I was not aware Israel Regardie was a member of  the Societas Rosicruciana in America. Societas Rosicruciana in America has started a blog post. I was certainly impressed with his writings on reincarnation at age 19. He joined this order at age 16.

http://societas-rosicruciana-in-america.blogspot.com/2012/04/reincarnation-by-israel-regardie.html

http://societas-rosicruciana-in-america.blogspot.com/2012/04/fragmentary-aspects-of-philosophy.html


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 Anonymous
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09/10/2012 2:55 am  

Well, once he got laid he was kinda bearable.


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jamie barter
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01/08/2013 12:33 pm  

In the process of rooting about the bowels of Lashtal recently when I had the odd moment (a most fascinating process of discovery!) I came across this thread to which I may be able to supply some further information.  Gerald Suster wrote an excellent biography/ appraisal of Regardie’s legacy The Sorceror’s Apprentice – The Life and Ideas of the Magical Psychologist (and which, I will most immodestly mention, he was kind enough to dedicate to myself) which goes into some detail about his biography, beliefs, experiences and legacy. 

The unfortunate thing about Regardie’s otherwise very good The Eye In  the Triangle was the way he seems to regard Crowley’s best years as having been behind him by the time he had finished with The Equinox, and his implication that he may as well have packed up and gone home – this well before the time he made his acquaintance in the late 20s himself.  In fact the chronology of The Eye In The Triangle grinds to a halt by this era; I have always felt a Volume 2 was “conspicuous by its absence” and that someone, if not Regardie himself, needs to carry it forward to 1947.  Gerald did contemplate doing it; I would even do it myself if I had the time, as I personally take issue with Symonds comments that the post-Cefalù times were his [A.C.’s] “Dreadful Years”, and that some of his most interesting (but obscure) work was in fact done in the late 20s, 30s and 40s.

Gerald always used to compare the G.’. D.’. with a “stately 1903 Daimler Limousine”, contrasted against a modern racing sports car, a comparison which has some validity, although he participated in several G.’. D.’. incarnations (Chris Monastre’s and Laura Jennings’ Ra-Horakhty Temple in the US, and a couple here in the UK (like myself).)

Along with myself and one other frater, Gerald also in his inimitable manner interrupted and brought the closing stages of a rather dull and dry 2 day Symposium to discuss the legacy of the G.’. D.’. in the late 80s to an abrupt halt and a rather amusing state of uproar, in order to declaim from the stage that the G.'. D.'. was not, as had been declared, a museum piece but still alive and of some relevance – for which the police were then immediately then summonsed to eject us from the premises (they were somewhat bemused by all the talk of magick – and by the time they eventually arrived to interview us we had already decamped to the adjacent Regent’s Park for a picnic by that late stage anyway!)

"dyulax" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"dyulax" wrote:
And about Gerald Suster, his "follower"?

What are you trying to say here?

I am asking for information about Gerald Suster, allegedly his "follower" in the A.'.A.'.:

A.'.A.'. - Israel Regardie via Gerald Suster via Frater Alion lineage: Astron Argon. A lineage operating in Serbia, Croatia, Greece, Poland and Norway.

Looks like someone has been doing their homework!  Except to add Gerald  most clearly understood Regardie to have been intimately connected with the A.’. A.’. (I will leave the question of legitimacy out of this discussion, except to say he was charged by him to carry on the Work in some particular aspects, and in a sense this is still continuing and partly endures with the, in effect Outer Order of, “the company of heaven”).

Winking at you With the Eye of Horus In The Triangle,
Norma N. Joy Conquest


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Michael Staley
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01/08/2013 8:14 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Along with myself and one other frater, Gerald also in his inimitable manner interrupted and brought the closing stages of a rather dull and dry 2 day Symposium to discuss the legacy of the G.’. D.’. in the late 80s to an abrupt halt and a rather amusing state of uproar, in order to declaim from the stage that the G.'. D.'. was not, as had been declared, a museum piece but still alive and of some relevance – for which the police were then immediately then summonsed to eject us from the premises (they were somewhat bemused by all the talk of magick – and by the time they eventually arrived to interview us we had already decamped to the adjacent Regent’s Park for a picnic by that late stage anyway!)

You make it sound like a jolly jape, Jamie. No truth, then, to the story that Suster marched onstage and punched one of the oranisers in the face?


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jamie barter
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02/08/2013 12:55 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Along with myself and one other frater, Gerald also in his inimitable manner interrupted and brought the closing stages of a rather dull and dry 2 day Symposium to discuss the legacy of the G.’. D.’. in the late 80s to an abrupt halt and a rather amusing state of uproar, in order to declaim from the stage that the G.'. D.'. was not, as had been declared, a museum piece but still alive and of some relevance – for which the police were then immediately then summonsed to eject us from the premises (they were somewhat bemused by all the talk of magick – and by the time they eventually arrived to interview us we had already decamped to the adjacent Regent’s Park for a picnic by that late stage anyway!)

You make it sound like a jolly jape, Jamie. No truth, then, to the story that Suster marched onstage and punched one of the oranisers in the face?

A jolly jape, a wheeze with an important intention behind it, and a very nice picnic in the park on a summer's evening afterwards, all in the name and the honourable tradition of Pranksterdom – what more could one ask for and how serious can that be?  I’m surprised at you paying attention to such scurrilous rumour-mongering, Mick, especially if you weren’t there at first hand & especially realising about similar such sorts of nonsense in the past  – surely you know better than to believe that??!

I was certainly not aware of Gerald “marching on stage and punching the organiser”, and I was with him on stage & on the premises the whole time from the moment we entered to the moment we left.  Anyone who knew him (as I believe you did) would know that spontaneous, unprovoked physical violence was not Gerald’s style.  Certainly, though, there was an element of argy-bargy at the conference and a bit of a most unseemly fracas occurred, but this was only when several people (at least seven, against the three of us) stormed the stage and tried to frogmarch Gerald on his way & overwhelm and physically evict us - for which he and we were having none of it.  But if anything did occur on a physical level it was in the (martial arts) way of reciprocal action & least resistance and certainly not instigated by any of us.

It was only Gerald’s adamant refusal to leave until he’d had his say – when I believe what he’d originally asked for was just 93 seconds of attention – that the police were called, in double-quick time I might add, or it seemed... By which time he had of course said his piece more or less within the timescale outlined, and so we'd all left and adjourned for some well earned liquid refreshment among the trees.  In fact everyone (that is, about a dozen people) who came up to us afterwards (apart from the police of course) congratulated Gerald warmly on his livening up what had been an exceptionally tedious conference at which people were nodding off, and several of those also said it had been the highlight of the entire weekend and well worth the price of admittance alone...

Tut, tut, these rumours!  Next the guy’ll be accused of having gorged himself on human blood, corrupting schoolchildren, cannibalism & all sorts, no doubt…?

Enjoying putting the record straight:
N. Joy


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Michael Staley
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02/08/2013 1:00 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
The unfortunate thing about Regardie’s otherwise very good The Eye In  the Triangle was the way he seems to regard Crowley’s best years as having been behind him by the time he had finished with The Equinox, and his implication that he may as well have packed up and gone home – this well before the time he made his acquaintance in the late 20s himself.  In fact the chronology of The Eye In The Triangle grinds to a halt by this era; I have always felt a Volume 2 was “conspicuous by its absence” and that someone, if not Regardie himself, needs to carry it forward to 1947.  Gerald did contemplate doing it; I would even do it myself if I had the time, as I personally take issue with Symonds comments that the post-Cefalù times were his [A.C.’s] “Dreadful Years”, and that some of his most interesting (but obscure) work was in fact done in the late 20s, 30s and 40s.

I haven't read The Eye in the Triangle for many years now, but I thought it a good book. The key to Regardie's attitude probably owes something to his estimation of the Golden Dawn.

My own opinion is that Crowley reached the heights during his period in America, particularly 1917-1919, and somewhat lost his way thereafter. Having said that, there's nuggets amongst the later work, for instance the essay on Silence in Little Essays Toward Truth.


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Michael Staley
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02/08/2013 1:03 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Enjoying putting the record straight:

Thank you, Jamie.


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jamie barter
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28/10/2013 12:55 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"jamie barter" wrote:
Along with myself and one other frater, Gerald also in his inimitable manner interrupted and brought the closing stages of a rather dull and dry 2 day Symposium to discuss the legacy of the G.’. D.’. in the late 80s to an abrupt halt and a rather amusing state of uproar, in order to declaim from the stage that the G.'. D.'. was not, as had been declared, a museum piece but still alive and of some relevance – for which the police were then immediately then summonsed to eject us from the premises (they were somewhat bemused by all the talk of magick – and by the time they eventually arrived to interview us we had already decamped to the adjacent Regent’s Park for a picnic by that late stage anyway!)

You make it sound like a jolly jape, Jamie. No truth, then, to the story that Suster marched onstage and punched one of the oranisers in the face?

A jolly jape, a wheeze with an important intention behind it, and a very nice picnic in the park on a summer's evening afterwards, all in the name and the honourable tradition of Pranksterdom – what more could one ask for and how serious can that be?  I’m surprised at you paying attention to such scurrilous rumour-mongering, Mick, especially if you weren’t there at first hand & especially realising about similar such sorts of nonsense in the past  – surely you know better than to believe that??!

I was certainly not aware of Gerald “marching on stage and punching the organiser”, and I was with him on stage & on the premises the whole time from the moment we entered to the moment we left.  Anyone who knew him (as I believe you did) would know that spontaneous, unprovoked physical violence was not Gerald’s style.  Certainly, though, there was an element of argy-bargy at the conference and a bit of a most unseemly fracas occurred, but this was only when several people (at least seven, against the three of us) stormed the stage and tried to frogmarch Gerald on his way & overwhelm and physically evict us - for which he and we were having none of it.  But if anything did occur on a physical level it was in the (martial arts) way of reciprocal action & least resistance and certainly not instigated by any of us.

It was only Gerald’s adamant refusal to leave until he’d had his say – when I believe what he’d originally asked for was just 93 seconds of attention – that the police were called, in double-quick time I might add, or it seemed... By which time he had of course said his piece more or less within the timescale outlined, and so we'd all left and adjourned for some well earned liquid refreshment among the trees.  In fact everyone (that is, about a dozen people) who came up to us afterwards (apart from the police of course) congratulated Gerald warmly on his livening up what had been an exceptionally tedious conference at which people were nodding off, and several of those also said it had been the highlight of the entire weekend and well worth the price of admittance alone...

Looking back at this post, I feel obliged to add a postscript that Gerald was a (minor) prizewinning in his youth boxer after all, but I am quite sure he would have only traded actual blows, including a punch up the bracket, if he had been so struck first.  And then there would have been no holds barred (according to the Queenberry rules, of course.)  Myself, and as a martial arts practitioner at the time, I also had a rollicking good time that day in trading tit-for-tat, as it were, I have to confess.  Hell, such marvellous good clean fun!!  However, Gerald did have a quite serious motive in mind beyond all this apparent chaos & disruption, though: he wanted to say that the spirit of (AC’s) Golden Dawn was not dead, as was being intimated by the conference.  It was definitely a magickal act and despite considerable opposition, he succeeded in its objective.  We definitely woke people up at what was pretty universally agreed had become an awesomely dull & dry conference!  They had come to bury the concept of the G.’. D.’. in its centenary, but instead…

We came to (p)raise it
N Joy


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 Anonymous
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30/10/2013 12:40 pm  

I would point out that in Regardies preface to Magick Without Tears, Regardie speaks highly of Crowley at this point: "Beyond all other considerations, these letters prove the inherent clarity and inexorable logic of his thinking. It never fails or falters, even for a single moment." I dont recall where but i think Regardie also expressed the same opinion toward The Book of Thoth.


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jamie barter
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01/11/2013 4:16 pm  

In addition to his editing of The Law Is For All (the first ever edition to be issued of A.C.’s then unpublished old and new commentaries to Liber AL), Regardie had the following to say on the subject in his ‘hagiography’ The Eye In the Triangle (1970) which speak for themselves [bold emphasis mine]:

His sexual philosophy is scattered throughout the so-called official instructions of his Order.  Even though a great deal of symbolism is deliberately employed, whatever time and effort may be expended to decipher the puzzle will be found infinitely worthwhile. (pp. 450-1)

It may well be that despite his pathologies which I have tried to illuminate here, Crowley was a far greater mystic and a wiser philosopher than either he or we could know.  In spite of all his mistakes, and there were many, and all his excesses, it is possible that he was nearer the truth of things than those of us who feel more restrained, less prone to excess and extravagance, and who are less overtly cruel and sadistic.  Crowley’s day may yet dawn.  It may well be that he is really the prophet of the new Age, where life and sex and creativity will become intrinsic parts of our everyday lives, without hypocrisy and shame.  To stop here would do Crowley a great injustice.  He was above all an apostle of a new kind of consciousness – the awareness that evidently belongs to a future time. (p. 452)

Let Symonds and the other mockers ridicule him if they wish, but future generations […] may see him more clearly than we do now as an outstanding giant in an age of pygmies. (p. 457)

The following is quite 'seasonal', in a way:

There was no perfection about Crowley.  None whatsoever.  But he did possess several psychological characteristics which must have made him more useful as a mouthpiece, the Logos or Word of the new Aeon.

There is another piece of writing which similarly has to be kept in mind, when discussing his character.  His insights may have exceeded anything that any of us may have anticipated from him.  For example, in the segment from Magick dealing with the Devil, he had this to say:

He is made God, exalted, eager; he has come consciously to full stature, and so is ready to set out on his journey to redeem the world.  But he may not appear in this true form; the Vision of Pan would drive men mad with fear.  He must conceal Himself in his original guise.  He therefore becomes apparently the man that he was at the beginning; he lives the life of a man: indeed, he is wholly Man.  But his initiation has made him master of the Event by giving him the understanding that whatever happens to him is the execution of his true will.

I have italicized the significant part of the passage.  It reveals so much about him – and at the same time warns us not to be fooled and undervaluate [sic] him and whatever he stood for.  Actually, he did herald the New Age, the future age where men will be self-determining, functioning in terms of the laws that Crowley came to state as Thelema.” (pp. 457-8)

Incidentally, the following explains my earlier remarks

"jamie barter" wrote:
The unfortunate thing about Regardie’s otherwise very good The Eye In  the Triangle was the way he seems to regard Crowley’s best years as having been behind him by the time he had finished with The Equinox, and his implication that he may as well have packed up and gone home – this well before the time he made his acquaintance in the late 20s himself.  In fact the chronology of The Eye In The Triangle grinds to a halt by this era; I have always felt a Volume 2 was “conspicuous by its absence” and that someone, if not Regardie himself, needs to carry it forward to 1947.  Gerald did contemplate doing it; I would even do it myself if I had the time, as I personally take issue with Symonds comments that the post-Cefalù times were his [A.C.’s] “Dreadful Years”, and that some of his most interesting (but obscure) work was in fact done in the late 20s, 30s and 40s.

as follows:

His major years of productivity were gone within a few years of that ordeal in Algeria [in 1909].  It is my considered belief that he might just as well have died around 1914 and prepared for his next incarnation.  Sometimes we all live just a bit too long for our own good.  To die early might be the better part of both valor and wisdom.

It is certain that nearly all of Crowley’s finest creative work was executed before the year 1914.  From then on, with only a few minor exceptions, he marked time.  Though he conferred higher grades upon himself, as all the texts and biographies indicate, his day was done.  Thirty more years had to elapse before he was able to shuffle off this mortal coil, but in that period of time he did himself and his reputation incalculable harm.  His reputation was not brightened one iota by his life after that date.  It is largely for that reason, that I have not taken my story of his pilgrimage beyond the bright period of his highest creativity.” (p.445)

However, Regardie does go on to say -

Crowley and his Book were destroyers – but merely of the illusions and dishonest deceptions that manacle man to what appears to be the sorrowful world of which he is apart. […]
“Do what thou wilt” has no meaning other than this.  It is entirely too bad that Crowley’s own playfulness and energetic exuberance so darkened his reputation that practically no one took time out to grasp what he was talking about.  It really was crystal clear all the time, and has been enunciated in other ways and in other terms by many people from time to time. (p. 489-90)

… The biological core of all living things has functioned for aeons solely in terms of expression, necessity and adjustment – survival being its keynote.  Morality, compulsive imposition of norms, and social initiation are creating pathological people whose resulting sado-masochistic needs, if unchecked, may drive mankind into total extinction.  This is the major implication of Crowley’s “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”  It means self-regulation and autonomy on all levels. (p. 492)

However in the year 1904 few could have predicted the rapid destruction of the political and economic world of the day, and its replacement by the system now temporarily in operation.  The Book of the Law has correctly called the stops, and if it is to be believed, further drastic changes in the governance of this planet are in order. (pp. 499-500)

But his [A.C.’s] love and dedication were never eclipsed.  There are not many, I am certain, who could have been as patient, as enduring, as determined as he was in all the multifarious practices and exercises that he used as stepping stones to the great goal – Self-realization.  This alone stamps him of a different breed from most of us, and demonstrates the clarity and purity of his devotion to the Light. (pp. 505-6)

It really makes little difference in the long run whether the Book was dictated by a praeterhuman intelligence named Aiwass or whether it stemmed from the creative deeps of Aleister Crowley.  The Book was written.  And he became the mouthpiece for the Zeitgeist, accurately expressing the intrinsic nature of our time as no one else has done to date. (p. 507)

"I rest my case, m'lud",
N Joy


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jamie barter
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02/11/2013 6:03 pm  

No one spotted my two – what I would call errata, affecting the meaning, rather than being simple typos, which I would of course have ignored as unfortunate but occasionally inevitable mistakes [the correction is in bold italics]:

"jamie barter" wrote:

There was no perfection about Crowley.  None whatsoever.  But he did possess several psychological characteristics which must have made him more useful as a mouthpiece, the Logos or Word of the new Aeon.

There is another piece of writing which similarly has to be kept in mind, when discussing his character.  His insights may have exceeded anything that any of us may have anticipated from him.  For example, in the segment from Magick dealing with the Devil, he had this to say:

He is man made God, exalted, eager; he has come consciously to full stature, and so is ready to set out on his journey to redeem the world.  But he may not appear in this true form; the Vision of Pan would drive men mad with fear.  He must conceal Himself in his original guise.  He therefore becomes apparently the man that he was at the beginning; he lives the life of a man: indeed, he is wholly Man.  But his initiation has made him master of the Event by giving him the understanding that whatever happens to him is the execution of his true will.

I have italicized the significant part of the passage.  It reveals so much about him – and at the same time warns us not to be fooled and undervaluate [sic] him and whatever he stood for.  Actually, he did herald the New Age, the future age where men will be self-determining, functioning in terms of the laws that Crowley came to state as Thelema.” (pp. 457-8)

… The biological core of all living things has functioned for aeons solely in terms of expression, necessity and adjustment – survival being its keynote.  Morality, compulsive imposition of norms, and social inhibitions are creating pathological people whose resulting sado-masochistic needs, if unchecked, may drive mankind into total extinction.  This is the major implication of Crowley’s “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”  It means self-regulation and autonomy on all levels. (p. 492)

(The jackpot prize has therefore been rolled over…)
N Joy


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