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Anonymous
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14/01/2012 11:57 pm  

I just finished reading the book Strange Angel about Jack Parsons. I've got to say that I have a new found respect for this Thelemite. He was inspired by Crowley during the same time he built the first solid state rocket fuel .Also supposedly
inspired by an old greek formula probably going back to times of al khemet . He seems to have been AA material. I dont think his writings were that great. Some poems are amusing. But, he is one of the people who actually took from Thelema and really accomplished some substantial things in this civilization of ours. A crater on the moon named after him. This guy was a bright star. I elect Jack Parsons for Gnostic Sainthood.


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Shiva
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15/01/2012 1:55 am  

8) Parsons was a cool dude!

If you examine the introduction to his book on "Freedom," you might see that he is more suited for the title of Martyr, than that of Saint. I guess he could be both.


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Azidonis
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15/01/2012 8:05 am  

The Unknown God, Sex and Rockets, and as Shiva said, Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword are all books containing solid information about Parsons.


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einDoppelganger
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15/01/2012 8:52 am  

Parsons has broken with Crowley by the time of his death and was developing his own system called "The Witchcraft" . He is a bright star but shines brighter, like Spare, for his independence from the Beast rather than his association. I am very fortunate to own some of his personal papers. I agree, he is one of the more inspiring Thelemites of the era. 


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Michael Staley
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15/01/2012 11:05 am  
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
I dont think his writings were that great.

In the late 1980s I immersed myself in what of Parsons' work was available, including then-unpublished material in the Gerald Yorke Collection at the Warburg. In my opinion he was gifted with a lucid and engaging style of writing, and I found his writings inspiring, particularly extended essays such as 'Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword'. Of particular interest is a series of letters he wrote to Marjorie Cameron in 1949-50, which again are very articulate and which set out magical instruction. From some of his references, I surmised that he was tapping the same current which inspired Achad to announce the incoming of the Ma-Ion in April, 1948.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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15/01/2012 11:21 am  

I also recommend including in that collection Ecpyrosis which contains, amidst the superb Starfire selections, the essential Parsons piece The Babalon Working
xtengui
Jack was a bright star indeed, shown with the Light of a Supernova, his Life like the Light, burned so bright, extinguished in the end by a massive explosion.


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lashtal
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15/01/2012 11:53 am  
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
I dont think his writings were that great.

Ultimately, of course, these things are a matter of opinion, but in my opinion his writings are powerful and inspiring and remain remarkably fresh all these years after their creation.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Anonymous
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16/01/2012 12:10 am  

I need to check out more of his writings but yeah, its just my current opinion of his literary works just like everyone else expresses opinions related to anything members read here or by authors in general
. After enjoying AC's poetry and books I kind of have the bar set high for what i like. I do feel the power in Parsons stuff. Mainly I admire him for making it possible to send obelisks into outer space.


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SatansAdvocaat
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16/01/2012 3:15 pm  

I read George Pendle's 'Strange Angel' in December and really enjoyed this great all round biography.

Parson's writings are powerful and interesting without a doubt; but in places they reflect that trait of naivety which allowed him to be conned by Hubbard.

Pendle notes Parson's particular fascination with Jack Williamson's lycanthropic, shape-shifting, witchcraft novel 'Darker Than You Think' and its influence on his presentation of "The Witchcraft" is unmistakable.  I thoroughly recommend the novel as essential magickal reading.

I am particularly interested in Parson's late identification with The Antichrist as Master of the Temple and The Black Pilgrimage as being his essential Mission.  Yet, at the time of his sudden death, he and Cameron were in the middle of preparations to head off to Mexico for what on appearances seems to have been intended for one long fiesta, second honeymoon.  Shame they didn't make it.

I like the idea of Parsons making it possible to "send obelisks into outer space".  Reminds me of '2001: A Space Odyessy' (!?) in reverse - say aren't we about due, or in need of, one of those enigmatic black monoliths to make its reappearance on our terrestrial shores ?

Regards - Satan's Advocaat.


The Children of Transgression are the Dragons of the Law.


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Shiva
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16/01/2012 6:24 pm  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
Yet, at the time of his sudden death, he and Cameron were in the middle of preparations to head off to Mexico for what on appearances seems to have been intended for one long fiesta, second honeymoon.

This is true. It's the official "cover" story. Those who were there at the time (Frater Aquarius and wife) said that it took too long to get a "rocket test approval document" in the USA (see: "red tape"), so he was headed off for Mexico, where such formalities were not required. Welcome to Mexico - bring your rocket! Fulminate of Mercury is a detonant [it detonates - not explodes. In detonation, ALL of the substance ignites at once. In explosions, the ignition starts at one (hot) spot, and then rapidly spreads throughout the explosive material]. Well, they say that Jack dropped a vial of fulminate of mercury while he was packing up his rocket stuff.

According to the intro in "Freedom," let's put this key scenario in perspective.

Parsons had previously given rocket secrets to Israel (our good friends), and the Govt thought that was traitorous and they pulled his security clearance (Eisenhower did the same thing with Oppenheimer's security clearance). Parsons was effectively fired.

His trip to Mexico was a cover. He already had plans in place to travel to Israel (where at least he could WORK), but via Mexico. To fly Israel Direct would probably have been blocked by the Men in Black.

So. Here it is. The MIB's last chance to stop the Antichrist. If he and Marjorie can get that rocketry trailer South of the Border, down Mexico Way, then they will pass out from under the control of an uptight government.

So. It was such a shame. He "dropped" the FulMerc and died several hours later in a hospital.

O Lord! Grant me a boon and Give Us a Break!


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Azidonis
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16/01/2012 8:08 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
Yet, at the time of his sudden death, he and Cameron were in the middle of preparations to head off to Mexico for what on appearances seems to have been intended for one long fiesta, second honeymoon.

This is true. It's the official "cover" story. Those who were there at the time (Frater Aquarius and wife) said that it took too long to get a "rocket test approval document" in the USA (see: "red tape"), so he was headed off for Mexico, where such formalities were not required. Welcome to Mexico - bring your rocket! Fulminate of Mercury is a detonant [it detonates - not explodes. In detonation, ALL of the substance ignites at once. In explosions, the ignition starts at one (hot) spot, and then rapidly spreads throughout the explosive material]. Well, they say that Jack dropped a vial of fulminate of mercury while he was packing up his rocket stuff.

According to the intro in "Freedom," let's put this key scenario in perspective.

Parsons had previously given rocket secrets to Israel (our good friends), and the Govt thought that was traitorous and they pulled his security clearance (Eisenhower did the same thing with Oppenheimer's security clearance). Parsons was effectively fired.

His trip to Mexico was a cover. He already had plans in place to travel to Israel (where at least he could WORK), but via Mexico. To fly Israel Direct would probably have been blocked by the Men in Black.

So. Here it is. The MIB's last chance to stop the Antichrist. If he and Marjorie can get that rocketry trailer South of the Border, down Mexico Way, then they will pass out from under the control of an uptight government.

So. It was such a shame. He "dropped" the FulMerc and died several hours later in a hospital.

O Lord! Grant me a boon and Give Us a Break!

Wow.


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amadan-De
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16/01/2012 8:29 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
Wow.

..in spades.
What a very different world we would be living in now if not for that 'accident'.


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Anonymous
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16/01/2012 11:23 pm  

Advocate, I agree that Hubbard took advantage of Jack's passion in more ways than one. There are few people whom i hate but Hubbard is one of them. L Ron Hubbard has fucked over the free will, health, and finances of so many people. Crowley didnt like him from what ive heard. If things had turned out different Parsons would probably have been " Caliph " . Anyway, I love defaming Scientology any chance i get.


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Michael Staley
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17/01/2012 12:05 am  
"TreeDragon7" wrote:
Crowley didnt like him from what ive heard.

Crowley knew little about Hubbard apart from enthusiastic letters from Parsons, in one of which Parsons described Hubbard as the most Thelemic person he had ever met. After Crowley had received reports of Hubbard running off with Parsons' money, Crowley described it to someone as "the usual confidence trick". He was less interested in Hubbard than in what the matter suggested about Parsons' judgement: "I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts", he remarked in a letter to Germer.

As for whether he might have gone on to be I don't personally think that Parsons was cut out for high office, be it Lodgemaster, national Head, Caliph, O.H.O., or whatever.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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einDoppelganger
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17/01/2012 2:02 am  

I dont think he would even be interested in the role of "Caliph." Parsons was developing a more "mainstream" presentation of the general ideas of Magick and Thelema which he intended to distribute as a correspondence course. I think Hubbard stole a lot more then money from Parsons in that regard. These notes were available on the collectors market a few years back as part of the Helen Parsons Smith collection.

The pomp, circumstance, and authoritarian roles of the OTO seems to have clashed with Jack's character. The OTO system was not conducive to his own magical goals and thus Parsons had resigned from the order by the time of his death. I think it is important fact to note, as it does Jack a disservice to assume he would be interested in an leadership position in an organization from which he tendered a resignation. It's rather like nominating Spare as Chancellor of the AA...

What little remains of Jack's life's work remains locked away in certain private collections, unexamined, and unpublished. Perhaps it never will because his best work, like Spare's, comes from breaking with traditions rather than slavishly following them.


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einDoppelganger
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29/01/2012 10:39 am  

I'm curious, does anyone know what valid copyright claim Bill Breeze / "The Cameron Parsons Foundation" has on Jack's work? Was it through Helen Parsons Smith via an old will? Is there documentation of this copyright claim? 


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Michael Staley
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29/01/2012 12:52 pm  

I've not seen documentation, but I gather that Marjorie Cameron left her copyrights - which would have included the copyrights which she inherited as the widow of Jack Parsons - to the Cameron-Parsons Foundation.

I had contact with someone from this organisation, Scott Hobbs, when seeking permission to include The Book of Babalon in Ecpyrosis. In the course of correspondence in July 2010, he told me that "The Cameron-Parsons Foundation holds the copyright on all the writings of Jack Parsons. We currently have an agreement with Bill Breeze to publish the collected writings of Jack Parsons."

Subsequently, Bill Breeze helped secure permission from the Foundation for the republication in Ecpyrosis, for which I'm grateful. I look forward very much to the Collected Writings when they appear.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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einDoppelganger
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29/01/2012 1:17 pm  

Thanks for the information Michael. I'm glad that you were able to secure the rights to republish the work. I too look forward to the collected writings, when they do appear. I'd like to see Jack's work on "The Witchcraft" see the light of day as well as his personal record / magical diary  of the "Black Pilgrimage" which was recently discovered.

When it comes to keeping interest alive in Parson's works people should note that both Kenneth Grant and Poke Runyon had a hand. Grant featured Parsons and Cameron in the trilogies, of course.  And while there was a 93 publishing edition of Jack's essays, I believe it was Poke who first published them in the 1960s early 70s.


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Michael Staley
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29/01/2012 1:24 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
When it comes to keeping interest alive in Parson's works people should note that both Kenneth Grant and Poke Runyon had a hand. Grant featured Parsons and Cameron in the trilogies, of course.  And while there was a 93 publishing edition of Jack's essays, I believe it was Poke who first published them in the 1960s early 70s.

I hadn't heard of Poke Runyon before, though I just did a quick Google search after reading your reference. Where did he publish the writings?

Best,

MS.


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kidneyhawk
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29/01/2012 5:56 pm  

"I hadn't heard of Poke Runyon before, though I just did a quick Google search after reading your reference. Where did he publish the writings?"

I just contacted Mr. Runyon re: this thread and publishing Parsons work. Perhaps he'll respond directly or indirectly.

🙂

Kyle


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einDoppelganger
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29/01/2012 6:46 pm  

Poke published them in his order's magazine 'The Seventh Ray" starting in 1975 .

From the Weiser Antiquarian catalog available online:

"The Witchcraft" in The Seventh Ray, Vol. IV, No 1: 1975.

"Preface" [to Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword] and "A Sword is Drawn," in The Seventh Ray, Vol. V, No. 2 (Issue # 17);

"The Sword & the Serpent," in The Seventh Ray, Vol. VI, No. 1 (Issue # 18): 1977.

"The Sword & the Spirit," in The Seventh Ray, Vol. VI, No. 2 (Issue #19): 1977.

"The Woman Girt with a Sword," in The Seventh Ray, Vol. VII, No. 1 (Issue # 20): 1978.


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Walterfive
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30/01/2012 3:17 pm  

Poke had facsimile reprints of those 7th Ray mimeographs available for throughout the 90's, and they're now available in a 2-volume paperback set.

I'm suprised you'd never heard of him, Mr. Staley. Mr. Runyon was a student of Lewis T. Culling, and back in '69, Culling turned over to him all O.T.O. Authority that he had recieved from C.F. Russell and Crowley. Runyon knew (seemingly) everybody, including Dr. Regardie, and presided over several Golden Dawn Temples over the years, as well being quite active with his own O.T.A. See--


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Michael Staley
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30/01/2012 6:28 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
I'm suprised you'd never heard of him, Mr. Staley.

You're the second person in less than twenty-four hours to tell me that. Doubtless my young friend Camlion would adduce that as further evidence of my relentless esotericism; guilty as charged, I expect, and awaiting only the hangman's noose.

Though I've long been interested in the work of Parsons generally, more recently I've been particularly taken with parallels in his work with that of Frater Achad. Both anticipated the incoming of a feminine force to complement the Force and Fire of Horus; Parsons chacterised that as Babalon, whilst Achad viewed it as the Ma-Ion.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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einDoppelganger
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30/01/2012 6:32 pm  

Despite his idiosyncrasies (which i find charming, myself) Poke strikes me (pardon the pun) as a gentleman, a scholar, and a damn good writer. I enjoy his work on the Goetia and his films as well. He has also posted one of the best reviews on Amazon of Thomas Karrlson's book "Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic "


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Shiva
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30/01/2012 6:46 pm  

The Weiser Antiquarian catalog referenced above contains this statement: "... he attempted to organize a magically inclined devotional group, and "The Witchcraft" his plan to teach a course on practical magic to a group of paying students."

Although I am a "Jack Parsond fan," I am (intellectually) concerned about two words: (The) "Witchcraft," and "paying" students.

Crowley latched on to ye olde term "Magick" as a title for his system. How "Witchcraft" came to be Parsons' system title, I do not know. But I can think of no other term that historically excites more suspicion and fear - except for "Satanism" or some similar appelation.

"Paying" students is also a red-flag. There are (as we know) three schools of Occultism: (1) Absolutely free teaching, or perhaps a token initiation fee in order to conform to the universal principle that says, "There must always be a initiation fee."

(2) Teaching that is given only to Dues-Paying members or students. The amount of the dues gives an indication as to the monetary motivation.

(3) Teaching that is transmitted via a Fee-for-Profit.

These three categories may be correlated with the three schools of Magick (White, Yellow & Black) of Crowley-renown. These three streams of monetary infusion may be further broken down, or expanded, into the seven rays of entrepreneurship, or into the ten sephira of money-making (or not, as the case may be). That is, there are many shades of gray and gold. The ultimate yin-yang duality rests upon the founder's motivation - and the part played therein by "personal profit."

The more money involved, the stickier and more complex the situation becomes.

To these two points (Witchcraft and Paying), I would like to add concern over a newly-made Magister whose announcement of arising is based on a declaration of War (against a certain Church).

I am neither making accusation here nor coming to any final conclusion.

However, the arising of a Magister, followed soon after by a violent death (whether caused by self-sabotage or by The Men in Black) doesn't quite fit into my assessment of the path. A Magister "should" not be subject to self-sabotage [for there is no self). If a Magister was doing his Will, The Men in Black could not say "Nay!"

So I express these (intellectual) concerns that, surely, people everywhere have probably considered ... and wondered.


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einDoppelganger
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30/01/2012 10:08 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Crowley latched on to ye olde term "Magick" as a title for his system. How "Witchcraft" came to be Parsons' system title, I do not know. But I can think of no other term that historically excites more suspicion and fear - except for "Satanism" or some similar appelation.

Given jacks aggressive Libertarianism and opposition to Christianity its no surprise he would pick a term which was loaded with suspicion. This is the guy who tried to evoke Satan as a young teen! Merely reading his "Book of the Antichrist" shows the state of mind and attitudes toward dogma which would draw him to such iconoclastic imagery.

"Paying" students is also a red-flag. There are (as we know) three schools of Occultism: (1) Absolutely free teaching, or perhaps a token initiation fee in order to conform to the universal principle that says, "There must always be a initiation fee."

(2) Teaching that is given only to Dues-Paying members or students. The amount of the dues gives an indication as to the monetary motivation.

(3) Teaching that is transmitted via a Fee-for-Profit.

Well... Jack had left the OTO and the AA at this point. He was also flt broke and pumping gas for a living... Its also a matter of conjecture based on preliminary ideas and discussions what his plan was with these sketches. If he planned to receive payment for the time and effort of publishing the course I have no qualm with that. Besides, it was Jacks course and his choice, not ours. The idea of "The Witchcraft" was to create a workable system for the "masses." Parsons felt Thelema through Crowley was overly technical and unpalatable to the average "joe." How prescient he was when just a little over decade later bookstores and checkout lanes would be flooded with pulp paperbacks on "occult secrets to riches and love." Not to mention the growing number of "Dianetics Centers" that started to span the USA. Its a shame Parsons didn't have an opportunity to flesh out and make his system available. It would likely have been something really special, even if he charged for it.

The more money involved, the stickier and more complex the situation becomes.

yep... look what happened to the negative intent of L Ron and the mount of money involved there. Cancerous...


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kidneyhawk
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30/01/2012 11:07 pm  

Shiva-

You write:

"However, the arising of a Magister, followed soon after by a violent death (whether caused by self-sabotage or by The Men in Black) doesn't quite fit into my assessment of the path. A Magister "should" not be subject to self-sabotage [for there is no self). If a Magister was doing his Will, The Men in Black could not say "Nay!" "

I find these to be problematic statements, if I'm understanding you correctly.

Are you asserting some cosmic law that prohibits a Magister from passing into the more subtle spheres ere a certain time has passed?

You seem to imply that for Parsons, there were two options:

1) He self-sabotaged himself, whatever that means (is that like suicide)?
2) He got knocked off by enemies which he should have been invincible to with his newly acquired Magister superpowers.

One may as well question Crowley's various grades (how did attainment of Ipsissimus correspond to journaled accounts of bed rest for bronchitis)?

I think the two options above can be replaced by others:

1) Jack had an accident like we human bodies are wont to have. He dropped some volatile stuff and things were bad.
2) There was foul play. Jack had made enemies who had resources. Such people in positions of power have a track record of tackling those who threaten them.  We can again look at Crowley (that "Ipissimus" guy). How could an Italian Dictator say "Nay" to such a being and close down the playgound?  😮

But there is "success" and from the explosive (and sad) ending of Parson's material incarnation, a legacy flows-its power still radiating influence to many on the Path. Perhaps it was the Magister's "Spell," cast into space-time to carry its Current beyond the mortal lifespan of its Magician.

One might say the same of that old man in Hastings who died broke and vilified (surely a great World Teacher would not be subject to such ignonimy! ;)).

But really-try as they may-the voices of the "Naysayers" have been silenced in their graves while Jack and Al keep speaking.

I'm failing to see where Parsons' "Attainment" and "Exit" have failed to find a fit. True, he "wasn't finished yet" but which of us is? The Will continues on to find its expression and the seeds scattered during a now passed life traverse time to find their suited soil.


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einDoppelganger
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30/01/2012 11:32 pm  

I'm failing to see where Parsons' "Attainment" and "Exit" have failed to find a fit. True, he "wasn't finished yet" but which of us is? The Will continues on to find its expression and the seeds scattered during a now passed life traverse time to find their suited soil.

Well put Kyle! It breaks my heart to think that those were Jack's last words, lying in pain on a hospital bed in Burbank; "I wasn't finished yet."  He had so much left to do but I'm thankful we have the resonance of what he did manage to accomplish in such a short span of time on the planet. 


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Shiva
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31/01/2012 12:11 am  

"I am neither making accusation here nor coming to any final conclusion. So I express these (intellectual) concerns that, surely, people everywhere have probably considered ... and wondered."


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kidneyhawk
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31/01/2012 12:36 am  

Shiva-

Not to nit-pick but you DID follow those words with a "However"-and that leading into the statement I addressed (where you indicate that Parsons' end doesn't quite fit YOUR assessment of the Path). I was asking for clarity on how the manner of his death fails to fully fit this assessment, something I was questioning in light of your "a" or "b" options (which a "Magister" presumably wouldn't fall to). 

Kyle


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kidneyhawk
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31/01/2012 12:49 am  

Ein D-

I cannot help but regard the great irony in those last words. Whereas the final words of Jesus on the cross are "It is finished," the Antichrist declares that it is NOT.

Irony aside, Jack's death was horribly sad and unthinkable.

I find Parsons' writings to be immensely interesting as I do the above discussion of the "Witchcraft." Despite his "Antichristic" self-identity, Parsons also wrote some small works on Gnosticism from a Christian vantage point which I find powerful and intriguing. These works hearken back to a "pure" Christianity before patriarchal takeover (which created the abomination of what he calls "Formal Christianity"). They also feature the theme of the divine feminine. It's my thought that Parsons was, as Mick mentioned earlier, operating along the same current that infused Achad. Whether he named this force Sophia or Babalon, Parsons had a dynamic focus for which he acted as Prophetic vehicle. 

I would certainly be interested in the context of his "Gnostic" writings and if there are any known but unpublished documents which throw further light on these.

Kyle


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Walterfive
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31/01/2012 3:52 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
It's my thought that Parsons was, as Mick mentioned earlier, operating along the same current that infused Achad. Whether he named this force Sophia or Babalon, Parsons had a dynamic focus for which he acted as Prophetic vehicle. 

Above the Abyss, in the Supernal Triad, The Sophia *IS* Babalon, and the Christos *is* To Mega Therion-- the Union of Opposites


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einDoppelganger
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31/01/2012 9:41 pm  

Israel Regardie noted that once an adept reached a certain level within the G.'.D.'. they tended to either break with the order and go on to greatness or remain with the order in relative comfort. Examples include Crowley and Fortune. I wish I could source the original quote.

It seems to me that Jack left the OTO at such a juncture. I think anyone who reaches that level of attainment and intensity would buck against any system.


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Michael Staley
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01/02/2012 9:37 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Israel Regardie noted that once an adept reached a certain level within the G.'.D.'. they tended to either break with the order and go on to greatness or remain with the order in relative comfort. Examples include Crowley and Fortune. I wish I could source the original quote.

It seems to me that Jack left the OTO at such a juncture. I think anyone who reaches that level of attainment and intensity would buck against any system.

I don't think this observation of Regardie's is necessarily true. Crowley, for instance, never left the Golden Dawn, but simply redeveloped the Order around him. I doubt that Parsons could have remained a member of any Order.

Sometimes the way of "relative comfort" is by leaving the Order and thus avoiding challenges to cherished personal values.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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einDoppelganger
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01/02/2012 10:40 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
I don't think this observation of Regardie's is necessarily true. Crowley, for instance, never left the Golden Dawn, but simply redeveloped the Order around him.

I don't think it was possible for Crowley to develop anywhere close to what he accomplished within the confines of the G.'.D.'. under Mathers. For better or worse, he had already begun to "kick against the pricks" by the time of the revolt.  Personally, I think Crowley did more than just reform the Golden Dawn. He reformulated the rituals and the order around himself but he also pushed far beyond the confines of what was "comfortable" within the Golden Dawn magical system.

I doubt that Parsons could have remained a member of any Order.

Probably not, but neither could Crowley.  As a result of this see them both taking steps toward starting their own Orders. Spare couldn't remain in an order either which is probably why he refrained from "active" membership in New Isis Lodge. I also suspect the dissolution of the masonic  system by Grant was partially a mechanism to allow individual inspirations to develop within the group unfettered by an artificially imposed limiting structure.

Sometimes the way of "relative comfort" is by leaving the Order and thus avoiding challenges to cherished personal values.

Perhaps, if the people in question went on to do little of merit or failed to explore new territory or otherwise expand upon the lessons learned from the original body. I don't think that fits Parsons or Crowley. Both of them seemed more than willing and able to challenge their own values or in the case of Parsons - who absolutely ventured outside the "comfort zone" he also upheld many of his deeply rooted values to his own detriment.

Now, none of this is meant to imply those that work within a system are failing. They are working for themselves with great success and thats not to be dismissed. The systems work  and works for some people. True for everything from oto, to Typhonians, to Voudon Gnosis, to Gnostic Christianity, Catholics, etc.  Its also important that these systems are maintained and clarified  for other seekers. I just think that those who break ways and create something new are as vitally important to the evolution. If it werent for thwir experiences within the originating systems, these "pioneers" would never have had the shoulders to stand on.

Cheers!
S


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einDoppelganger
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01/02/2012 11:59 am  

Also, there is a vast world of difference between those who break ranks to create something new and those habitually break from their former mentor or order to endlessly act out a deep seated aversion to father figures and/or authority. I can think of a couple folks offhand who fit that particular moduis operandi and its a far cry from the kind of individual I see in Crowley, Spare, Parsons, and Achad. I think its important not to underestimate the need for the student to shed the master and the system to strike out and make something new.


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Shiva
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01/02/2012 4:34 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
True for everything from oto, to Typhonians, to Voudon Gnosis, to Gnostic Christianity, Catholics, etc.

We had a saying. It's still true. "Many Roman Catholics attain despite the Church."


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Walterfive
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01/02/2012 6:16 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Also, there is a vast world of difference between those who break ranks to create something new and those habitually break from their former mentor or order to endlessly act out a deep seated aversion to father figures and/or authority.

Truer words were never spoken. Another in the long list of Student/Teacher Relationship Abuses. *sigh*


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 Anonymous
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01/02/2012 7:21 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
I don't think this observation of Regardie's is necessarily true. Crowley, for instance, never left the Golden Dawn, but simply redeveloped the Order around him.

Quite true, Michael.

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Sometimes the way of "relative comfort" is by leaving the Order and thus avoiding challenges to cherished personal values.

And truer still, in many cases.

Parson's personal issues seem to have been factors in many of these twists and turns in his short life.

And I wouldn't have poked fun at you if I'd known that you weren't familiar with Poke, by the way. 😉


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einDoppelganger
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01/02/2012 7:31 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Parson's personal issues seem to have been factors in many of these twists and turns in his short life.

profound  ::) I'd venture personal issues factor into all our lives. I wonder if you have any specific examples that pertain to the discussion at hand of Jack's iconoclastic nature? Barring credulity and susceptibility to folks like L Ron, which really does not apply to the question of rebellious nature etc, I'd venture Jack's "personal issues" were far more "personal integrity" maintained to a degree outside the comfort of the average Thelemite. 


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kidneyhawk
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01/02/2012 7:54 pm  

"I'd venture Jack's "personal issues" were far more "personal integrity" maintained to a degree outside the comfort of the average Thelemite."

Jack did examine his upbringing and personal "issues," identifying them as fuel for the particular spirit he would grow into. He frankly addresses the impact on his consciousness of an absent father, a strong and even sexual attachment to his mother and so on. If we wish to psychoanalyze Parsons' motivations, he was already ahead of this game and wrote to inform US of what was going on his psyche as he traversed the Path.   


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 Anonymous
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01/02/2012 8:14 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
"I'd venture Jack's "personal issues" were far more "personal integrity" maintained to a degree outside the comfort of the average Thelemite."

Jack did examine his upbringing and personal "issues," identifying them as fuel for the particular spirit he would grow into. He frankly addresses the impact on his consciousness of an absent father, a strong and even sexual attachment to his mother and so on. If we wish to psychoanalyze Parsons' motivations, he was already ahead of this game and wrote to inform US of what was going on his psyche as he traversed the Path.   

This is the critical stage of Initiation for each of us, to my way of thinking, yes, and it will remain so for as long as Initiation is the sort of Self-recovery program for adults that it is today. And yes, Parson's knew this very well, I believe. As for his decisions on any particular occasions, I see no value in second-guessing them at this point, unless it is to learn from them.


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einDoppelganger
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01/02/2012 8:15 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Jack did examine his upbringing and personal "issues," identifying them as fuel for the particular spirit he would grow into. He frankly addresses the impact on his consciousness of an absent father, a strong and even sexual attachment to his mother and so on. If we wish to psychoanalyze Parsons' motivations, he was already ahead of this game and wrote to inform US of what was going on his psyche as he traversed the Path.   

True, well put. I would suggest that the only "personal issues" which pose a problem are the unexamined ones.  Jack seemed to have been more than willing to be aware of his own and merciless in their examination. 


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 Anonymous
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01/02/2012 8:17 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
I wonder if you have any specific examples that pertain to the discussion at hand of Jack's iconoclastic nature? Barring credulity and susceptibility to folks like L Rom, I'd venture Jack's "personal issues" were far more "personal integrity" to a fault.

I loved Jack's response to L Ron attempting to knick his boat.  😀  Just for good measure he went and summoned a spirit of Mars, and the boat had to come back into harbour after a storm at sea.  It's a great story.  It's very Hollywood: - the wronged Hero has assistance from the spirit world and everything goes right for him.  On the other hand, if you don't believe that a man can perform a ritual and cause a storm to happen then what happened there is explained off as coincidence; of 'magical thinking', and as some species of delusion or personal problem.   

...I just gotta love a man who breaks out a ritual when the chips are down.  😀  Each to their own! 

I think studying Jack's iconoclastic image is a worth while thing, but I'm also interested in the all too human man.  'Jack' is a name with quite an archetypal heritage.  A 'Jack' is the young man on the front of the Fool tarot card, and a score of nursery rhymes and folk stories.  Do you think that one of the reasons for the iconoclastic image of Jack might stem from him channelling this archetype in his psyche?


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 Anonymous
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01/02/2012 8:31 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Jack did examine his upbringing and personal "issues," identifying them as fuel for the particular spirit he would grow into. He frankly addresses the impact on his consciousness of an absent father, a strong and even sexual attachment to his mother and so on. If we wish to psychoanalyze Parsons' motivations, he was already ahead of this game and wrote to inform US of what was going on his psyche as he traversed the Path.   

True, well put. I would suggest that the only "personal issues" which pose a problem are the unexamined ones.  Jack seemed to have been more than willing to be aware of his own and merciless in their examination. 

I would stipulate that a "personal issue" remains a potential problem until it is fully resolved. A diagnosis is a step in the right direction, certainly but a full resolution does not automatically follow. We see evidence of this in many of our 'heroes' and 'anti-heroes.'


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einDoppelganger
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01/02/2012 9:17 pm  

Give us a call when all your "personal issues" are resolved, Cam. I consider "issues" character aspects in the range of positive to negative. You are suggesting that these can be fully addressed and eradicated which is absurd. There will always be factes to the personality with a range of positive to negative reprocussions - these things you call "personal issues." If they stand in the way of your advancement because of an inherently limiting factor or your own inability to reconcile them - then they are a detriment. Address, reassess, and move on. 

Even good old Uncle Al was a selfish old broke ass sociopath on his death bed. 


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 Anonymous
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01/02/2012 9:35 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Give us a call when all your "personal issues" are resolved, Cam. I consider "issues" character aspects in the range of positive to negative. You are suggesting that these can be fully addressed and eradicated which is absurd. There will always be factes to the personality with a range of positive to negative reprocussions - these things you call "personal issues." If they stand in the way of your advancement because of an inherently limiting factor or your own inability to reconcile them - then they are a detriment. Address, reassess, and move on. 

Even good old Uncle Al was a selfish old broke ass sociopath on his death bed. 

Yes, I was thinking of "old Uncle Al" when I used the word "heroes" above. For the record, I disagree with you, a point that I want to make clearly for the benefit of other readers who might be new at all this. There is really no excuse for a lazy or sloppy attempt at the 'Great Work.' Any attempt to justify this is simply irresponsible advice to be giving. 


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einDoppelganger
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01/02/2012 9:50 pm  

I'm not suggesting lazy or sloppy attempt at "the Great Work."  I'm saying you are blanketing a generic term of "personal issues" on personalities and suggesting that these ephemeral "issues" can and will all be resolved to the point that "you" would assess the person as "clear." Have you considered Dianetics? You could be one heluva auditor
(Yes, hello - yes, hello - look at that picture - is it persisting?)
[sub:12295hly]23 crowley points for anyone who gets that reference...[/sub:12295hly]

I am saying that "personal issues" is a glib little term you are tossing into the discussion and going nowhere with it. Jack had many facets to his personality - just like Crowley. Some of these aspects were positive, some negative, and some a combination of both. The fact that they addressed, examined. and resolved or reassessed them is the important fact. the old adage "an unexamined life" and all. Your whole point is so reductionist and banal its hardly worth derailing the thread. What 'ascended master" does not display horrid personality defects in retrospect?

So yeah. Jack, Crowley, Achad, and others had personal issues. I suppose I'm just amused by Camlion, self-styled elder statesman of Thelema, sycophant of the celestial spheres, and unsung hero of 1960s occulture and author of (unreleased) "Hermosa beach Abbey of Thelema" sitting in internet forum judgment on the personalities of men infinitely more accomplished than him. Thanks for the opinion though. I'm sure those readers "new to this" will benefit from your "experience."

Irony- its not what you do when you want to make that Grateful Dead 1974 tour shirt look crisp.
::)


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 Anonymous
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01/02/2012 10:33 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
(Yes, hello - yes, hello - look at that picture - is it persisting?)
[sub:1gbqq7so]23 crowley points for anyone who gets that reference...[/sub:1gbqq7so]

Psychic TV - Towards Thee Infinite Beat album, track is "Bliss", right? WHere do I score my 23 points? 🙂


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lashtal
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01/02/2012 10:40 pm  

It's William Burroughs, I think… Re-used by PTV and others.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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