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Lola Zaza


kidneyhawk
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Reading through the Sutin Bio ("Do What Thou WIlt," I quote:

"In the autumn of 1911, Rose was committed to an asylum with a diagnosis of alcoholic dementia; she ultimately recovered and remarried and passed completely out of Crowley's life, as did-but for very occasional correspondence-their daughter."

Whatever happened to Lola Zaza-and is anyone aware of any surviving correspondence to or from her from AC?

Kyle


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kidneyhawk
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93

I'm interested in this as well. Anyone know anything about her?

93
Adonia444


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kidneyhawk
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No, I'm not Adonia444 😯 ...my wife forgot to sign me out before SHE signed on and kicked this out with my screen name (yes, I'm only here under one name!).

Anyway, we were BOTH discussing Crowley's marriage to Rose the other night and digging through some bios regarding his early family life-so that's TWO of us interested in what happened to Ms. Lola as Crowley's life "got on."

Lashtal historians?

A fiver?

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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👿
My grandmother's name is Lola Zaza Stein. I'm having a hard time finding out if she is the REAL Lola Zaza! She passed away in 1974. I need anybody's help with this, PLEASE.

Thanks,
voodoo84044

voodoo84044@yahoo.com


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 Anonymous
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I thought AC's daughter died very young.


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belmurru
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"uranus" wrote:
I thought AC's daughter died very young.

That was the other one, Nuit Ma Ahathoor Hecate Sappho Jezebel Lilith Crowley.

I'm very interested in Lola Zaza's subsequent life too, and if vodoo84044 is related to her.


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 Anonymous
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93:.

Gerald Kelly, Rose's brother, and his wife raised Lola Zaza as their daughter when Rose became too ill to look after her.

93:.

WillIAm


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kidneyhawk
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This is very interesting...do we know if any of the

very occasional correspondence

regarding Lola is "out there" to be read? Was there any contact between Lola herself (or even Gerald Kelly) and AC after custody of his daughter was passed?


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 Anonymous
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I just hope Lola Z. had a good life, and was happy. From what I've read most of A.C.'s children didn't fare too well.

Creating children, magickal or otherwise, is no big trick. Being a parent is a huge responsibility and magickal undertaking. I say this from observation only: I have no children myself. Don't think I have it in me in this incarnation.

But I think this is one area in which Mr. Crowley failed miserably. Sad, but true. Sad for him, and his children.

nick


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 Anonymous
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On a tangentially related note, I once got an e-mail from a woman who claimed she was the daughter of Frater Achad. Now a school teacher in British Columbia. Daughter of A.C.'s magickal son, if it's true. Can anyone share info on C.S. Jones's children, with privacy being respected, of course?

nick


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 Anonymous
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Creating children, magickal or otherwise, is no big trick. Being a parent is a huge responsibility and magickal undertaking.

Two snaps and a twist Nick! Well said. *grin*

It does somewhat baffle me that there hasn't been any more detailed replies to this thread. With all the Crowley scholars on this forum you'd think something concrete would have been posted. Do we really not know what happened to her? Paul, do you know?
I find it hard to believe on so many levels but it could have happen that she just slipped off into obscurity and lived her life out. Probably good for her if that did happen. Of course this pushes one into further speculation and wonder then if she had children and if so where are they and so on.

Well regardless, any information, even if thats stating that nobody knows what happened to her would be appreciated.

I just hope Lola Z. had a good life, and was happy.

I couldnt agree more.
Agape,
Kym


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 Anonymous
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On a tangentially related note, I once got an e-mail from a woman who claimed she was the daughter of Frater Achad.

Why did she write to you Nick? You didn't know who this person was and just out of the blue she sent you an email saying she was Frater Achad's daughter? That would be kind of...weird. Care to share more details behind this?

Agape,
Kym...you know me, always curious. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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I had a website called "Pestilence Central" years ago and several websites had a link to it as a Thelemic resource. That's the only way I think she could have gotten my e-mail address. Don't know why she thought I'd know anything about Achad.

Of course, these were the days before Lashtal.com, so there was no public forum for discussion of these matters. 🙂

nick


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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"adonia444" wrote:
Do we really not know what happened to her? Paul, do you know?

Not much more than has been presented here and in Sutin's biography, I'm afraid.

I've heard a little about contact made with her by, er, a prominent member of our community, contact that wasn't well received.

I have a problem with this sort of enquiry, though, in such a public forum. There are families to consider...

It really is time that I did what I said I'd do months ago: activate an area of LAShTAL.COM for members of The Aleister Crowley Society. Members whose seriousness is self-evident and where membership would be by invitation only... In such a secure area this sort of conversation would be so much more appropriate.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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I have a problem with this sort of enquiry, though, in such a public forum. There are families to consider...

Yes, you're VERY correct Paul. I'm sure if there is family and we dont know much about them it's probably on purpose I.E they dont want to be bothered. Never my intention in the first place. Just a general curiosity but you do make a good point and I DO apologise for any indiscretion.

Your reply DOES answer the question however. Seems as if we dont have any details about her and with that I guess this thread could be closed. 🙂

Thanks for your reply.
Agape,
Kym


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 Anonymous
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Well, hmmm, I says, scratching my bald head (which needs a shave...)

I understand completely the desire to shelter children from the perceived sins of the father. If I was the son of a vilified figure, and wanted to live my life as a norm and not an heir, I would hope people would respect that. But I haven't seen anything in this thread that violates that.

Biographers of Crowley have certainly looked into this, and I assume, maybe wrongly, they published what little they could uncover. In the end, do the lives and opinions of the offspring of well-known Thelemites matter to us? IMO that only matters if they are magickal as well as material heirs to their parents.

What is definitely lacking, and perhaps telling in this area is the succession, the passing of the torch from King to Prince or Queen to Princess. The children of outstanding occultists tend to distance themselves from their heritage in this regards. Why is that? Normal teenage rebellion against whatever the parents think? Whatever it is, I agree it should be respected.

I have no problem with a more private area of LAShTAL.com, I only question what "members of The Aleister Crowley Society" means. I didn't get a pledge card in the post, so I assume I'm not invited, which is okay, I'm not a joiner anyway.

Agape,

nick


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 Anonymous
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The following from Richard Kaczynski's excellent biography 'Perdurabo':

'When, on December 14, 1928 - nearly a year after he first met Crowley - Yorke became trustee of the fund set up for Lola Zaza, he wrote A.C.'s oldest daughter and suggested that she, now a woman of 22 making 17 shillings a week as a showroom assistant for a West End dressmaker, meet her father. She replied:
"I wrote to my uncle, and he said that I am old enough to choose for myself. I will give you certain books to read, he said, and they will help you think. So I read parts of them. After all, an author's work is a part of himself. So I have judged him by his own works and what could be fairer? But the answer is no. I really have no time to spend on a man so rude or conceited. His works are a part of him and I am very sorry for the other part. What a hash he has made of it" (Lola Zaza Crowley to Gerald Yorke, Yorke Collection)
Her polite refusal must have been a disappointment for Crowley, who so desperately wanted a family.'


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 Anonymous
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The Aleister Crowley Society" means. I didn't get a pledge card in the post, so I assume I'm not invited, which is okay, I'm not a joiner anyway.

Nick, love, he hasn't made this section yet. NOBODY has gotten an invite at this point. 🙂

You do make a valid observation that to a degree people of a "certain line" are going to have to understand public interest in their ancestors but keeping within a fine line of discretion is the key, which you clearly agree with, of course. I dont believe we've done anything "wrong" here either but I think the idea was that is "could" go that way.

What do I know? LOL. Either way it's saturday! Lets be happy!

Agape!
Kym..who adores you 🙂


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 Anonymous
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arcturus418 wrote, quoting Kaczynski:

"I wrote to my uncle, and he said that I am old enough to choose for myself. I will give you certain books to read, he said, and they will help you think. So I read parts of them. After all, an author's work is a part of himself. So I have judged him by his own works and what could be fairer? But the answer is no. I really have no time to spend on a man so rude or conceited. His works are a part of him and I am very sorry for the other part. What a hash he has made of it" (Lola Zaza Crowley to Gerald Yorke, Yorke Collection)

Thank you for that.

You know, this discussion of AC's children makes an important point, I think. Crowley had a glorious vision, but failed in so many ways, both personally and magickally. He let down so many people around him, almost consistently, because he placed himself on such a high pedestal. King Lamus, the Rehab King of the 1920s, ended his life as an unreformed heroin addict.

He failed his children.

He failed his chelas.

He did not complete the Great Work.

But that's alright. He tried his damnedest, and mapped out a Way. It is up to US, his spiritual children, to do it right. Let's do it, in his honor.

Q


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 Anonymous
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'Do what thou wilt...' really took on a lot of different meanings after my daughter came along. I'm not saying that snap, overnight I realised that everything I had ever believed was a nonsensical lie (That only happens once, I think), but my priorities altered drastically. I can see why Crowley had trouble.

Keeping children safe is so hard. They do everything they can to wound themselves. Loving them is, luckily, extremely easy.

Anyway, I'm not trying to hijack the thread. I thought that letter from his daughter was incredibly sad, and it made me think of Billy Burroughs's letters to his father, William S. Billy was born addicted to amphetemine to a psychotic mother and a junkie father. His father then shot his mother and abandoned him. Anybody who has ever seen footage of Billy as an adult will understand the great tragedy that those who make certain choices in their life and thought create in their children.

Creating children, magickal or otherwise, is no big trick

Not to sound crass, but all babies are magic. As anyone who has spent an hour trying to make one smile will tell you. 🙂


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kidneyhawk
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This thread is wonderful!

Crowley was such a complex personality that he seems destined to eternally baffle those who would approach his legacy. We love him-we hate him-we switch our opinions around and yet just can't shake the man!

Informutation-! You beat me to the allusion to Burroughs! But I was thinking much the same thing. What is sad is that Burroughs did try to connect with his son later in life but it was much too little, much too late. Having read much of the man and his letters, I think it's evident that it wasn't merely the drugs which kept him from a relationship with his children. He was quite happy to "stash the brats" and be off on his way. Enigmatically, his "way," was a grand adventure and Burroughs remains one of the great psychonauts of all time. He pushes the limits of MIND and EXPERIENCE to the end of his mortality. I'm a HUGE admirer and fan of Burroughs' work and yet (perhaps especially) as a Father, I find certain aspects of the man "beyond excuse."

Now, addressing Crowley, it seems that his impetus to adventure and exploration took precedence over being "Dad." And I agree with Papanick...it's very sad for all parties involved. We might "excuse" him as he was the "Prophet" etc etc. but I think this is a weak argument. This is the man who could perform High Magick on donkey-back. He made his choices. They had consequences.

Before this seems like a complete finger-pointing at AC, I want to add that I have always admired the anecdotes regarding Children in his life. I don't doubt that AC loved kids and that THEY loved his dramatic energy. That story from Sutin's bio of AC in his old age attending a child's birthday party (by REQUEST of that child!) dressed up in his turban and robe with a dagger thrust in the belt always makes me smile. He showed up to bestow wonderment.

This is why I asked about his letters to Rose re: Lola. I was curious as to what he expressed, how he felt.

Oh, by the way:

Not to sound crass, but all babies are magic. As anyone who has spent an hour trying to make one smile will tell you.

I don't see HOW this could possibly be "crass."

I agree wholeheartedly!

93,

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I don't see HOW this could possibly be "crass."

I agree wholeheartedly!

Maybe crass is the wrong word, but it is an inescapable truth that amongst the many Uncanny and Reality Warping powers of a child's is numbered its ability to make one speak Exactly Like A Hallmark Card.

The precise nature of this Art is as yet unknown to me, but with study I will discover the Infants' secret.


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 Anonymous
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Lola Zaza died, she was my distant ancestor. I was told she died in Vietnam of typhoid. She was born 1907 in Paddington, London. Update: SORRY, just spoke to my grandad and he says she DIDNT die, it was her sister. Its not something I know much about but there is a LOT of inaccuracy written about the family when it comes to names and dates. Havent been on this site b4, just wanted to clarify that. Alick (Aleister) had a son named Dyonisus, but the 2 books Ive read on him havent named this son.....yet we know he existed!! I was looking into doing the family tree but half his kids were born abroad, and he had LOADS of women!! I was also told his daughter Poupe's name was realy Anna Leah (born 1920). Poupe was his special name for her.


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 Anonymous
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How did AC fail the great work which is Knowledge & Conversation? He achieved that spectacularly.


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 Anonymous
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Incidentally, Rose Kelly's mum was Blanche Bradford born in Hampstead, London in 1844 or 45. If anyone is related to this family we'd love to hear from you. She married in 1873 to Frederic, the curate of Camberwell church.


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lashtal
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Any more information you can supply would be enthusiastically received here. Any anecdotes or documents?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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We don't understand your fascination with them, but if anyone wants scans of birth certs etc theyre welcome to them lol. Who exactly in the family is it you nwant to know about? Theres a lot of people descended from Alick (Aleister), or was it Rose you were more interested in? There must be tons more peeps out there who know much more than we do, to be honest. I know Fred was (allegedly) supposed to be very Victorian, very stern and strict. Blanche's family was from Devon somewhere, although she was actually born in Hampstead, London. Fred was from Bloomsbury I think. Rose Kelly, their daughter, was born Paddington.


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the_real_simon_iff
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I don't want to seem unpolite but why would your family keep an eye on the later kids of Mr. Crowley if you don't understand our fascination with him? I sense a little understatement here. Anyway, what I don't get is: Rose and AC seperated, so only Lola Zaza is a descendant from AC, right? Who are the other descendants of him in your family? Or is there a connection between families of AC's various women? Or what is it I am just missing? Anyway, it would be highly interesting to learn about some secret family life of Mr. Crowley, so please keep updating.

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
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I would love to know more too Lutz, good questions!

I found Kyle's comment a few post's back quite interesting regarding the whole Prophet/Parent issue. I can see your point Kyle and I to some extent feel the same however didn't Crowley give everything for everything?

Maybe this belongs as part of another thread.

Ps: Lola Zaza is a fantastic name, LOL - and she was a cutey (from the pictures). Sorry being very gooey I know! 😆

Raych X


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 Anonymous
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I don't have an interest in his numerous brood, but it seems common knowledge about his kids (or it was to us). I may well be wrong but i was told he had TWO daughters by Rose...one died, one didnt (Lola). Considering he and his other women werent accepted, its not something I can help you with, I do know some names etc but certainly couldnt give you birth places. Just looked on here out of curiosity really. Dyonisios (sorry spelt wrong) apparently was a kid of Aleister's, which would make him half sibling to the others. So they're all related, even if only half-blood. I'll say bye anyway, sorry haven't been much help. Lutz (or whatever) we're trying to put a family tree together, hence the later kids, who are still blood. Being half-related to my siblings, I think it does count.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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why would your family keep an eye on the later kids of Mr. Crowley if you don't understand our fascination with him?

I can understand someone having an interest in people they are related to. (I have a relative who has systematically tracked down everyone he can find on the planet sharing our surname and traced us all back to two parishes in Cornwall in the 16th/17th century. There aren't lots of us and we all seem to be related. Only some of us are mad though 😆 )
It might be more odd to be excessively interested in the progeny of a figure whose work one admires when it seems they had no real desire to continue it or be associated with it.


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 Anonymous
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🙄 Dippy me, forgot to say, Lola married in Reading, and died there as Lola Hill, in 1990. Her birthdate was 3 December 1906. My mums putting a family tree together, its a very complex business lol! Bye again all.


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 Anonymous
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papanick & kidneyhawk,
As a parent just a quick note on judging Crowley as a father. Having a child is easy raising them is the ultimate challenge and I gently warn anyone, especially anyone without them on judging another persons legacy in regards to their offspring. You do the best you can at all times.

By the sounds of the "perdurabo" account Lola Zaza at least sounds very healthy and succesful and in full control of her destiny. She choose not to get in touch with him again or her mother by the sounds of it and go it on her own. Is not the will of any parent that their "stars" have the ability to control their own destinies? Sounds to me that she was very smart to distance herself and do her own thing.

She looked at her parents and said "The way you chose to live is not the way I want to live..." and she by the sounds of it lived out her life on her terms. As a parent I would be very proud that she was that strong and recognized that "MY" choices led to this separation and hopefully setting the example to her of what "Not" to do if you want a functioning family.

He hardly had the stable family background to use as a benchmark and having kids raised by nannies, sent off to boarding schools and generally ignored by their parents was quite the norm for people with money in those days. Remember in those days the attitude towards parenting was radically different than now and it was not unusual to have one or more of your children to die off of some disease.

Have any of you turned your back on any of your family you wish to have no part of?

Imagine in 1928 what your father's reputation was and having it confirmed in his own words as well as having been abondened as a child by BOTH parents.

Sounds to me like she was very well balanced and stable and lived a long and "loved" family life on her own terms. What more would you wish for your "Stars..."

My whole attitude towards my own parents was completely transformed and my empathy to them has grown as I deal with my own stars and learn just how tricky it is.


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 Anonymous
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The only question I have in my mind is did Lola Hill have any surviving children?


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 Anonymous
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[Edit]


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 Anonymous
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"papanick" wrote:
On a tangentially related note, I once got an e-mail from a woman who claimed she was the daughter of Frater Achad. Now a school teacher in British Columbia. Daughter of A.C.'s magickal son, if it's true. Can anyone share info on C.S. Jones's children, with privacy being respected, of course?

nick

There is an excellent Interview With Fr Achads Son on one of the Thelema Coast to Coast Episodes I will look it up and post the link ..

http://www.evocationmagic.com


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 Anonymous
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Here is a link to a picture of Lola Zaza Crowley and parents:

http://www.villarevak.org/bio/crowley_1.html


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 Anonymous
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Ancestry.com transcription:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1984-2005
about Lola Zaza Hill
Name: Lola Zaza Hill
Birth Date: 3 Dec 1906
Death Registration Month/Year: Mar 1990
Age at death (estimated): 83
Registration district: Reading and Wokingham
Inferred County: Berkshire
Volume: 19
Page: 396


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 Anonymous
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this may be a bit off thread but what became of Hansi and Howard the sons of Leah and Nanette? If alive both would be in their 80's I suppose.


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 Anonymous
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Having had a more than somewhat morbid interest in Crowley offspring at one point earlier in my Thelemic experience, I'm now inclined to think that it was rather shameful. I frankly don't see any good reason for any of us to want to know about Crowley's descendants who've either dropped into obscurity or made clear that they prefer no association whatsoever with their infamous ancestor.

What does this desire to know represent other than an opportunity to indulge in nosiness to no useful end?

It seems to me more civilized as well as respectful to leave the details of their lives to themselves and their families and not to be trying to ferret out such information.


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 Anonymous
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"mistyrose" wrote:
I don't have an interest in his numerous brood, but it seems common knowledge about his kids (or it was to us). I may well be wrong but i was told he had TWO daughters by Rose...one died, one didnt (Lola). Considering he and his other women werent accepted, its not something I can help you with, I do know some names etc but certainly couldnt give you birth places. Just looked on here out of curiosity really. Dyonisios (sorry spelt wrong) apparently was a kid of Aleister's, which would make him half sibling to the others. So they're all related, even if only half-blood. I'll say bye anyway, sorry haven't been much help. Lutz (or whatever) we're trying to put a family tree together, hence the later kids, who are still blood. Being half-related to my siblings, I think it does count.

From what I've gathered from a wee bit of research, Aleister Crowley only had two acknowledged children that went on to produce offspring of their own. The first was Lola Zaza, from whom you are descended. Do you know how many children she had? The second was Astarte Lulu Panthea born of Ninette Shumway in 1920, who has four children of her own, whom now have their own children (Aleister's great-grandchildren). One child of Astarte Lulu is a noted jazz musician, Eric Muhler. You can read his own post here: http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=10954 (although you have to go closer to the bottom of the page)

Does your branch of the family keep in contact with that branch? I am curious, because I find it difficult to keep in contact with distant relatives. I often wonder if sharing a famous relative in common helps to forge ties.


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