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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
27/10/2020 9:37 pm  

@shiva,

The answer is yes, 50 years ago. Did it about three times, didn’t like it, so I quit.

Hey, did you know that there is a measure on the Oregon ballot to legalize psilocybin therapy for use with psychiatric disorders? I think it is just a reason to legalize a recreational drug, like the marijuana initiatives, but you may disagree. Does oriental medicine use hallucinogens for therapy?

 

@ignant666,

You sound much like me when I was young. I have been interested in spiritual things since age 12 or so, but didn’t really pursue anything much until I was about 17. That was when I went away to university and had a wealth things to pick from. It was a hippie university at the time, and I even took a class called, “Altered States of Consciousness.” Got an A on my final paper. My motto was “I’ll try anything once, except needles.” Ironically, later I became a nurse and made my living sticking needles in other people.


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
27/10/2020 10:08 pm  

Interesting question there at the end, @jamie. I don’t think I could ever totally leave my God, because I believe so strongly in the basic foundation of Christianity, that we are all depraved (ie. sinful) and need a saviour. I have been very angry at God sometimes when things didn’t go my way, but I have always believed. It’s kind of like a petulant child with a benevolent parent. No matter how much the child whines, the parent isn’t going to give them what is not good for them.

As far as the damnation part of your question goes, I do not believe that anyone who has been truly saved can be lost unless they shake their fist at God, so to speak, and say “go away and leave me alone. I don’t want you anymore.” After all, God gave us a free will, so I do think it is possible. But not if I just drifted away for a time. People do that all the time.

Barbara

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1656
27/10/2020 10:41 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

I don’t think I could ever totally leave my God, because I believe so strongly in the basic foundation of Christianity, that we are all depraved (ie. sinful) and need a saviour.

There is no Guilt.  There is no Grace, either.  (They sort of - cancel out!)

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I have been very angry at God sometimes when things didn’t go my way, but I have always believed.

Another way of putting this would be, that your neurological hardware always (=for this lifetime) took a pretty strong imprint.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

It’s kind of like a petulant child with a benevolent parent. No matter how much the child whines, the parent isn’t going to give them what is not good for them.

What's not good for you that the parent (=God) is not going to give you, for whatever reason?

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I do not believe that anyone who has been truly saved can be lost unless ...

But not if I just drifted away for a time. People do that all the time.

As long as you come back again in time for the Last Judgement call, of course?  Though isn't everyone who doesn't believe that salvation can Only come through Jesus Christ meant to be 'damned' (i.e. not allowed to go to Paradise)?

N Joy


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1645
28/10/2020 10:18 am  

The old Aeon no loner needs to hold sway.
The human experiment no longer needs to hold the vision that they are the result of sin.
You are a Star ! Experience !


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
28/10/2020 5:44 pm  

@tiger

“For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23 Look around at the world and see all the misery man has caused. I look at the misery I have caused in my lifetime, and I cringe. I do appreciate the uplifting thought, Tiger, but I am sorry, I just don’t believe that I am a star. “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
28/10/2020 6:34 pm  

@jamie,

Yes, my neurological hardware has been strongly imprinted. I am very grateful to God for delivering me from the depraved life I was living. It was an astounding 180, and I can’t thank Him enough. When I cried out into the “abyss,” to use one of your terms, I meant it wholeheartedly.

As far as your question regarding eternal damnation, I have been avoiding answering it directly because I so strongly believe in a free will, and I also do not believe in an eternal hell. But since you obviously want an answer to the question, I will tell you what the Bible says:

”And Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me.” John 14:6

Barbara


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Posts: 1645
29/10/2020 8:56 am  

@barbaragreen
“Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6

The substances for the achievement of enlightenment are within.
Seek not for enlightenment outside of yourself.
Use the unskillful states to awaken and transform.
Love.
Thus going travel come arrive.


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
29/10/2020 4:58 pm  

@tiger,

Thank you for the kind encouragement, but I am quite content with my path. I find great joy in knowing what I am and knowing that I am forgiven for it. Also, God has given me a new life, miles apart from the degrading one I used to lead, and I am infinitely grateful for that.

I really do appreciate that you are concerned with my well being. However, I don’t feel deprived, either, actually I feel very free. Free from the bondage of sin and death, and free from myself, basically.

For example, my parents were abusive, and passed down that lovely trait to me. When my third child was born, I was so tired that I began yelling at my children like my mom used to do. Anyway, I did not want to be like my mom, who could yell for hours, so I prayed that God would give me the grace to stop. I never yelled at them again. In fact, they don’t even remember me yelling at them.

I know that this is just a small example of the grace of God, but I could give many more. In short, God has been very gracious to me. Not that I am perfect, far from it. I’m just a regular person striving for something higher, just like you.

Barbara


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1656
29/10/2020 6:33 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

“abyss,” to use one of your terms

I don't think I've used it in this thread, nor is it one I usually use a lot.  Perhaps you mean "your" collectively (as in "most people here")?  It's not a word that actually conveys a great amount of information.  Rather similar in a way to how Crowley also found the term "Holy Guardian Angel" to be, perhaps.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

As far as your question regarding eternal damnation,

I don't think I brought this subject up, either - hey, you're putting words into my mouth!  I did pose a sort of question relating to why some people should be free to exclusively bask in Paradise whilst everyone else - doesn't...

Posted by: @barbaragreen

and I also do not believe in an eternal hell.

But do you believe in Paradise to come?  And if not, what's it all for & in aid of?

Posted by: @barbaragreen

But since you obviously want an answer to the question, I will tell you what the Bible says:

I'm not sure that particular quote was the one I had in mind - I think it specifically mentioned Salvation and suggested "Christians" (as in believers in JC as The Way) had some sort of a monopoly on it.

So you're still "quoting scripture" then!  I don't know, I'm getting just a little bit bored with having to do that all the time, aren't you?!

I notice you also seem to have omitted to reply to some parts of my post, Barbara.  Would that have been a deliberate decision on your part or an accidental oversight?

N Joy


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
29/10/2020 8:05 pm  

@jamie,

You say I’m putting words in your mouth, but I feel that you are misconstruing things I say from your preconceived notions of what a Christian is and believes. I guess we don’t communicate well.

As far as me not answering all of your questions, I thought some of them were rhetorical and the answer was obvious, so I didn’t answer them. However, I am doing my best to try to communicate with you, as I think you are with me.

As far as quoting scripture goes, I never get tired of it, except the typing of it. 
Barbara

 


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Posts: 1656
29/10/2020 8:53 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

You say I’m putting words in your mouth

You're not in fact denying then that it's pretty obvious that's what you were doing?  (That's really no problem, so long as we're all aware of it!)

Posted by: @barbaragreen

but I feel that you are misconstruing things I say from your preconceived notions of what a Christian is and believes

We all have preconceptions, but I'm not sure what you think mine are which would cause me to misconstrue what you said.  You appear to have preconceived notions about my having preconceived notions, in fact!  (Could you just remind me what they were/are please?)

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I guess we don’t communicate well.

Oh, I wouldn't say that!  In fact you go on to optimistically say

Posted by: @barbaragreen

However, I am doing my best to try to communicate with you, as I think you are with me.

As for

Posted by: @barbaragreen

As far as me not answering all of your questions, I thought some of them were rhetorical and the answer was obvious, so I didn’t answer them.

Apart from what exactly constitutes your views on Grace you didn't address the following at all (which wasn't rhetorical!):

Posted by: @jamiejbarter
Posted by: @barbaragreen

It’s kind of like a petulant child with a benevolent parent. No matter how much the child whines, the parent isn’t going to give them what is not good for them.

What's not good for you that the parent (=God) is not going to give you, for whatever reason?

I'm not the one preoccupied with hellfire and damnation here, I'm coming at the whole 'problem' from the other way and asking what you think of the idea of Paradise or Heaven, wherein a goodly portion of humanity will not necessarily get in past those Pearly Gates and be allowed to participate with their friends & families - not because they're intrinsically bad or evil, but because they backed the wrong religion and/or refused to accept J.C. as their personal saviour who (quite unasked for) went and died for their sins. 

Posted by: @barbaragreen

As far as quoting scripture goes, I never get tired of it, except the typing of it.

Oh, don't you?!  (While I hardly ever say 'never'!)

"I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy: nor do I demand aught in sacrifice." (The Book of the Law, 1:58).

N Joy


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
29/10/2020 9:49 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

the parent isn’t going to give them what is not good for them.

There are exceptions to that observation ...

.

image

.

image

.

image

.

image

.

 

 


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
29/10/2020 10:01 pm  
@jamie,

 

“I'm not the one preoccupied with hellfire and damnation here, I'm coming at the whole 'problem' from the other way and asking what you think of the idea of Paradise or Heaven, wherein a goodly portion of humanity will not necessarily get in past those Pearly Gates and be allowed to participate with their friends & families - not because they're intrinsically bad or evil, but because they backed the wrong religion and/or refused to accept J.C. as their personal saviour who (quite unasked for) went and died for their sins.“

 

Actually, for most of my Christian life, I was not preoccupied with either hell or heaven. I was just thankful that I wasn’t living the life I had before I got saved. Then I joined a Baptist church, which was really big on hell, in particular. I started having long discussions with the pastor about the inconsistency of an eternal hell with a loving God. He finally said, “Barb, I hope you are right,” and we left it at that.

I do believe that all of humankind is intrinsically bad/depraved/sinful, and therefore not worthy of heaven to be with a sinless God, including and especially me. I am the chief of sinners, as the apostle Paul says. (I’ll spare you the quote.) But, I do think that God is more gracious than we give him credit for sometimes. @ignant says he doesn’t want to live forever. Do you?

As far as Jesus dying for our sins unasked for, that is the beauty of the gospel. God loves us even when we don’t love him. He also thinks that you and me are worth dying for. (Again, I’ll spare you the quote.)

This is all I have the energy for right now. I will get to your other questions later.

Barbara


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
29/10/2020 10:48 pm  

@shiva

@jamie

Ah, Shiva, you are too funny. But I did say a “benevolent” parent. Since you posted just the right pictures, I might as well answer Jamie’s question regarding what a parent would withhold from a child for it’s own good. The pictures are worth 1000s of words.

I believe that God withholds things we want from us to teach us things on a higher spiritual level. As an example from my own life: when I was first married, I wanted a baby right away, but no baby came. (And no jokes about not knowing how to do it, because I’ve heard them all already.) I waited seven years before I got pregnant.

But the things I learned during that time were invaluable; things like patience, compassion, trust, etc. These are things that I value highly and think it was worth the wait. Not that I thought so at the time, mind you. I was hopping mad at God for withholding from me the thing I wanted most. In retrospect, however, the years flew by, and my children are all in their 30s now.

I hope this answers your question, Jamie. It is a very personal story, and I do not share it lightly.

Barbara


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1645
29/10/2020 11:01 pm  

@barbaragreen

“ a goodly portion of humanity will not necessarily get in past those Pearly Gates and be allowed to participate with their friends & families - not because they're intrinsically bad or evil, but because they backed the wrong religion and/or refused to accept J.C. as their personal saviour who (quite unasked for) went and died for their sins.“ “

Reading scripture and merging your mind with your belief system is like concentration = atmadarshan.
Stilling the mind and letting go of the belief system is the next stage = Shivadarshan.


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Posts: 1656
29/10/2020 11:13 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

@ignant says he doesn’t want to live forever. Do you?

Who in their right mind does, in fact?  Well, (some) Christians do, obviously!

But it would be nice to at least be given the option to, all the same...

N Joy


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
30/10/2020 12:12 am  

@jamie,

I wouldn’t want to live forever in this world, certainly. But to live forever in heaven with God, has a great appeal to me. You do have the option to do this; Jesus died for your sins, too, even though you didn’t ask him to. All you have to do is recognize your own sinfulness, repent, and cry out to God. You don’t even have to believe that he exists yet. God will take care of that part. “Ask, and ye shall receive.”

There, I’ve laid down my colors. You (collectively speaking) who are reading this have the same offer before you.

With love, 

Barbara


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
30/10/2020 12:17 am  

@tiger,

I choose to stay in the atmadarshan level, but thanks for the offer.

Do you subscribe to all Hindu philosophy? Just asking out of curiosity.

Barbara


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
30/10/2020 12:25 am  

@ignant666,

We haven’t heard from you lately. What are you thinking? I would really like to know.

Barbara


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
30/10/2020 3:35 am  
Posted by: @tiger

Stilling the mind and letting go of the belief system is the next stage

Oh, please neti-not. You are being blasphemous (add it up). The belief system is the core of the organized Christian religion. Faith, it is called. The Christian Faith believes in the Redeemer and in eternal life after death ... if you behave yourself while alive and atone for any imbalance such as bad-thinking or (especially) a wavering faith belief system.

 


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Tiger
(@tiger)
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Posts: 1645
30/10/2020 9:58 am  

@barbaragreen
I digest what ever seems apropos for the moment,
and trust that i am not the genesis of some being that created a fickle sinner; that in after thought needs to be ransomed.
Nor that the world sits on a elephant that sits on a turtle.
I love myths, stories, and belief systems but not as a promise in an after life. ( though some consider that those that think they are living are really dead. In which case i might agree; That the Christ principle, Buddha nature, and whatever Logos the poor beings before Anno Domini cultivated within; can awaken one beyond establishing an identity with restriction. )
As far as death we all go through it; at the moment i Believe its the end as i know it at this moment; if not i will find out when i get there; and maybe even ban Hell if they don't worship me there.


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
30/10/2020 12:22 pm  

@shiva,

I suppose I am being blasphemous from your worldview, but keep in mind that this is the path I have chosen, and I find contentment and great joy in it. Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law. I am doing what I want to do.

As far as organized religion goes, I think you can see that I am definitely not organized. I have yet to find a church that I totally agree with. I only participate for the fellowship.

You said that a person must behave themselves in order to get to heaven. You couldn’t be more wrong. I try to be good, not to get into heaven, but because it is the right thing to do. Inside, I am far from good. “There is none righteous, no not one.” But not am forgiven, because of Christ’s sacrifice.

@tiger,

God did not create the fickle sinner. The people He created were perfect, until they chose to sin. Then God provided a plan that they could be redeemed. Do you think that it is so far fetched that there might actually be a Creator God? I certainly don’t, as I have experienced Him.

Barbara


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
30/10/2020 10:52 pm  
Posted by: @tiger

I digest what ever seems apropos for the moment,
and trust that i am not the genesis of some being that created a fickle sinner

"Every unit has the ability to figure out and solve the game by itself." - Book of life

Posted by: @tiger

and maybe even ban Hell if they don't worship me there.

Hell. Yes it is real. On its own plane, which is the lowest sub-plane of the astral plane. Anyone who takes LSD (or similar) and gets stuck in Hell, or the other lower sub-planes where they feel disturbed. The initiate has to pass through this zone, and it is called (the beginning of) the burning ground (of purification).

Higher-level initiates, who have either controlled this level in a previous life ... or .... inherited this control from an ancestor via DNA, pass directly through this zone on their first astral projections.

It is, after all, the lowest level of illusion, but it is real enough for the inexperienced projector as well as the dying person ... real enough on its own sub-plane domain. It is located above the Earth (Malkuth)(see Tree of Life), not down below. It's funny how these things get inverted.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I suppose I am being blasphemous from your worldview, but keep in mind that this is the path I have chosen

WTF? I have used blasphemous as a sarcastic jibe aimed at Tiger. Surely, you have not fallen into that trap wherein you take me seriously when I was merely being frivolous. Here, let me be perfectly serious for sure. This relates to the core subject.

Christianity, and other devotional religions, depend entirely on Faith, which is Belief.

Thelema basically postulates that Belief is just wishful thinking,
and is mostly illusionary.
Thelemites are inclined toward discounting belief systems
(although there are some beliefs within some Thelemites).

This difference is also expressed in the concept of the 6th ray of devotion being supplanted by the 7th ray of magic. It fits perfectly with the Osiris-Jesus vs Horus-Hoor Paar and the changing of the Aeons.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law. I am doing what I want to do.

Um ... this has been misquoted and misinterpreted in the basi basic and usual manner.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I only participate for the fellowship.

You want friends who belong to a church you do not agree with.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

You said that a person must behave themselves in order to get to heaven. You couldn’t be more wrong.

No, I was exactly correct. I was quoting (via paraphrase) the position of the Church.. It is very difficult to discuss religion down here at the lowest levels of belief, which is illusion. You have been caught a second time in the Sarcastic Trap, which was not set intentionally.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

God did not create the fickle sinner. The people He created were perfect, until they chose to sin.

Then they weren't perfect in the first place, what with the "planned obsolescence" built in.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Then God provided a plan that they could be redeemed.

This is all backwards. God said, "Let me be a man in order to see what Life is like in the dense realm. The plan for incarnation and redemption (return) is built in so God can save himself from eternal Life on the hard side.

You are actually defining this God person as a separate identity from yourself, which is the separating illusion that creates problems. Get it straight: You are God!  Of course, you have to be in that "state" to gnosis this. Otherwise, you (and the rest of us) are just a separated being typing away down here at the LAShTAL lower astral level.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Do you think that it is so far fetched that there might actually be a Creator God?

Something created all this (mess). I have taken full responsibility for it. So have a few others. Have you?

 


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Posts: 101
30/10/2020 11:50 pm  

@shiva,

i apologize for answering a post meant for @tiger. Somehow I thought it was meant for me. Had I realized that it was meant for @tiger, I would have gotten the sarcasm, and laughed about it. 

Many people say I am too serious. I often wonder if that is true. Although one thing you said, I totally disagree with: I am NOT god. God is the creator of the universe, while I couldn’t even create an amoeba. He created me (and you, whether or not you believe it.)

Yes, this world is messed up, but God is not responsible for that. It is sinful man that has messed things up. You say you have taken responsibility for this and question whether or not I have. I would say the question is backwards.

Sorry for being so serious.

Barbara 


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
31/10/2020 2:03 am  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

,

i apologize for answering a post meant for Tiger ....

No, everyone gets to comment on anything, especially messages not intended for them. It was merely the misinterpretation that I relayed.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I am NOT god.

That's too bad. It means you have not hit the "higher" states, visions, or perceptions..

Posted by: @barbaragreen

God is the creator of the universe, while I couldn’t even create an amoeba.

I see. So you have not accepted full responsibility for the mess in front of, and around, you. We now have enough confessional data to see that you are not a "Master." Perhaps, if this continues, we will see if you are an Adeptus, or one of the other grades.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

He created me (and you, whether or not you believe it.)

Did you thump the Bible as you dared to tell me about the True Nature of the Universe, based on your belief? Which is an illusion - a dim reflection of the nature of reality, with special belief-words designed to imprison consciousness.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Yes, this world is messed up, but God is not responsible for that.

No, it is his Son (or Dotter) who must take up that burden. Guess what? In Thelema, every aspirant who lives through the third initiation (some call it the 5=6 accomplishment) takes up that burden. And in the end He, and they, announce, "I and my Father are One!"

So, you (will probably not) see, God is ultimately responsible for this whole mess, and He's walking around down here, seeing through the eyes of the Adepts, making what adjustments are necessary (the "adjustments" are made at the 6=5 level, which is one sub-plane up from the 5=6 level. To fill out the triad, the sub-plane next up, and highest sub-plane that deals with this matter, is known to us as 7=4. This is where Jesus gives a Lecture up on the Mountain (his "thesis"), the core of which is, "I and my Father are One!"

The 7=4 (a rather high grade in the Thelemic hierarchy - probably equal to a Bishop in the Jesus Church) is required to "attain perfection" and to write a book (a "thesis"). I am perfectly willing to accept works of Art, recorded speeches, even daring maneuvers, as suitable forms of a "thesis."

Posted by: @barbaragreen

I would say the question is backwards.

No, the whole juxtaposition is confused. The sixth ray (including Christianity, Islam, Jewery, and Guru Yoga) does not mix or blend well with the 7th ray (magic, order, architecture, masonry, music, films). I remember way back, when Ignant told you, "Shiva has gone to great lengths to get you to see we're all on the same path, but you won't buy it." (a paraphrase - the dogs of accurate quotery may go sniff it out - somewhere above, in the old Aeon before the viral menace).

I have again laid it out here, showing how the Son and the Aspirant are One. But for each critical (important) point I make, you stand adamantly opposed, self-assured in your cocoon that is well-insulated from the Path of Return.

Frankly, (does that mean French people are straight-forward), Thelema is not a religion. It runs under the extended motto ...

We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon
Our method is science, the aim of religion

Posted by: @barbaragreen

Sorry for being so serious.

That's okay, we're at a Sirius juncture here, right now. I have stated my case in full comparison, with Bible quotes, between the Christian concept of Devotion and Abstract Idealism ... and the Thelemic concept of not believing any of this illusionary crap and getting on with finding out the Truth one's self. It's sort of like I'm pretending to issue a "mini-thesis," and you are free to take it or leave it, scream or laugh at it, it doesn't matter. We are standing on top of the Mount of Perfection. If you reject even a single concept in my pretended "min-thesis," the I will wu away, tendering you Victory.

Note: "Victory is the name of the 7th sphere, down below, where cultural and religious paradigms get imprinted into everyone's brain. More aspirants fail in the House of Victory, and its environs, than at any other stopover on the long path up the hill.

 


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
31/10/2020 3:03 am  

@shiva,

Actually, the quote “I and my Father are One” is not in the Sermon on the Mount. It is John 10:30.

Are you kidding me or what? 5=6, 6=5, 7=4. I have no idea what that means. Are you making it up just to tease me?

Barbara

 

 


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
31/10/2020 4:45 am  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

5=6, 6=5, 7=4. I have no idea what that means. Are you making it up just to tease me?

They are the designations of the degrees in Thelemic initiation. I tried to surround each equation with words describing it in English. Each degree represents a level or a sub-plane of a level of consciousness. Hard Earth is at the bottom. The degree is called "Neophyte," and the mysterious designation is 1=10. All that matters for our purposes is the first number (1). This is the first degree.

God, as understood by most, is up at 10.

If you think of it a Stairway to Heaven, then there are ten steps, The bottom one is #1.

Or it's a ladder with ten rungs.

Forget the = sign and the second number. Those are just dangling doodads invented to confuse the profane. Then re-read my post (understanding how the first number gets you ranked higher or lower on the universal spectrum of consciousness) and see if it makes more sense.

I like to twist the tales, mam, for the sake of humor, which is uplifting, but I hardly ever "make things up" just to "tease" somebody. Isn't something like that a minor felony?

 


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
31/10/2020 4:16 pm  

@shiva,

 I get it now. What stage are you at? It doesn’t seem like something one could claim for oneself. And, more importantly, how did you get there?

Barbara


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
31/10/2020 7:33 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

I get it now.

Hallelujah and Hosannas too. The 4=7s, etc, are standard grade level designations around here and used often. Now you have the secret information.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

What stage are you at?

It is called "old age."

Posted by: @barbaragreen

It doesn’t seem like something one could claim for oneself.

Some people claim these numbers all the time. Others get them bestowed after passing a test based on doing the work. From 5=6 and up, it's almost entirely a matter of self-initiation, and therefor self-claiming. But, you see, from the 5th on up, one has the HGA (Holy Guardian Angel) to guide one.

Note: Many of the people who claim high grades, like 7, 8, or 9, are delusional. Like Crowley said, "They stick the straw [for making bricks] in their hair, and think they are Jesus Christ."

Some people (like Ignant) just do the work. They are no interested in the grades. They do their own investigation and, not being stupid, they claim no grades ... or anything ... even though they know the key to liberation.

Posted by: @barbaragreen

And, more importantly, how did you get there?

I just published a book that documents every boring step. Before that there was a book about just the early stages.

Save your money, save your time.
Save at Shiva's every time
by going to the free website
where it's all told with clear insight

http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/title.htm

 


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Barbara Green
(@barbaragreen)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 101
02/11/2020 2:18 pm  

@shiva, etc.

I must sign off for a while. I am probably going where there is no internet.

Barbara


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3339
02/11/2020 3:13 pm  

A wise move considering the likely madness over the coming days around the election. Safe travels, Barbara.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
02/11/2020 7:01 pm  
Posted by: @barbaragreen

Shiva, etc.

That should be "Shiva, et al" if your concerned about Latin. You must be escaping to the wilderness and are in a hurry.

 


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 535
07/11/2020 10:04 pm  
  • @Barbara Green

  • I've been reading you for awhile & I've concluded that you're a Dyonisos worshipper who has somehow become confused. That is likely to happen with self-professed 'christians' who are ignorant of history. The early Roman church took a great deal from their cult without crediting the source & thus we have adherents who are unaware. This would explain your inability to function properly within your current 'christian' framework & your appeal to us here. Why else would you come here? Scouting?...I don't think so.

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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3339
07/11/2020 10:13 pm  

Barbara does not strike me as very Dionysian, but rather quite Apollonian, if we are talking in those terms.

Perhaps you mean something else by this cryptic post, which will certainly puzzle poor dear Barbara even more than it does me, after she returns some day to internet communication.

Or are you just trolling her for being an Xian? At least she's one with the courage to face the lions here in the Octagon, and may the many gods and godesses bless and keep her.


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
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Posts: 535
08/11/2020 2:12 am  

It's curious to me that you bring up "trolling" Ignant as I thought that you'd be more clever than to bring up your modus operandi over this forum for years on end. I wasn't talking to you. 


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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08/11/2020 2:20 am  

Gotcha; you weren't talking to me, you were just being an incoherent boob with poor reading comprehension, and limited historical understanding, being a jerk to a nice visitor. And you have crap formatting skills, BTW.

Yes, i am #1 troll here; thanx.


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 535
08/11/2020 4:46 am  

I actually  put you behind Shiva. No one else can breath in here. Two ancient guys from USA run this forum, apparently. You're the self proclaimed experts on Aleister Crowley except, I suspect, that he wouldn't think so. Oh! Are you going to insult me again?! 


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1885
08/11/2020 6:08 am  

I've followed this thread with some interest. I have nothing to add or comment re: Amado. I never knew or read him. From what I gather, he was a dysfunctional and questionable claimant to big shot heritage ala Crowley. I don't think I've ever heard a single testimony to the effect that he offered anything significant or substantial. And yet he does seem to have had an influence and impact on some who came int his orbit. As I have said, I am utterly an outsider to his “cultus.”

 

Barbara is always a pleasant read-and it is nice to see how she, as a Christian, is received here. She doesn't seem to have an insincere bone in her body and is a genuine seeker after Truth, Light and Goodness.

 

Has anyone here read Allen Greenfield's book on Therion and Christ? I've not but have been interested in it.

 

Crowley wanted to restore Christianity, restore Taoism and pretty much be revered as the Prophet (with due paychecks) during his earth life. I think he left us all with the task of treating his work through Alchemy. I also think the regulars here at Lashtal do a good job at this (since OTO members were instructed that posting on this site was verboten).

 

Shiva does a good job of relating Crowley to the Mainframe of the Non-Dogmatic Initiatory Schematic. I think the many posts from Barbara shine a spotlight on this.

 

For myself, Crowley remains a very hot or cold persona. He is easy to love and easy to hate. It's always when I have gotten far away from him and then return to one of his books that I find my heart opening to the Depth and Wisdom he penned. When I have no need to “accept” or “condemn,” I can read his words as pure poetry and find my mind opening into the Gnosis he gave expression to via the written word. And for all his flaws, he did this with amazing finesse.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
08/11/2020 6:39 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

... does not strike me as very Dionysian, but rather quite Apollonian, if we are talking in those terms.

I know about Dio, but only the basics. His membership constituted the first known AA. Apollo is not in my ballpark. So I can't be caught talking in thos terms.

Please note that the Nice Nicean Council took from Mithras, Krishna, Dio, Osiris, et al. Everything was up for grabs. They needed a tool, a system, that would make the most folks happy. Holi-dates, creation myths, the cruxed and risen initiate ... these were all ass-ess-ed and woven into the mainstream story that says they will intermediate for you (anyone) if you have faith and believe in their story.

Actually, it runs right up the Tree to MT 8=3, but they don't tell you that. YOU can't go there if you're still alive.

Posted by: @ignant666

after she returns some day

I believe she has gone on a Vision Quest, practicing survival without clothing or tools (to start). Isn't it great that we inspired someone to actually do the work?

Posted by: @horemakhet

I wasn't talking to you. 

The trolls all say this. Exactly, word for word, just like that Toadshroom. You (trollers) fail to realize where you are - on a public forum, where anything typed or uttered is fair game. The PM function has been disable so that disaffected mumblers cannot whisper in the back row.

Posted by: @ignant666

Yes, i am #1 troll here; thanx.

It's about time somebody recognized your skills.

 

 


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1885
09/11/2020 4:47 am  

Horemakhet is not a troll and has been a member here for as long as anyone.

 

I think some may be intimidated by the activity of Shiva and Ignant. As I previously indicated, the membership of OTO, Inc has been informed that posting here is not an “OK” activity. I don't need to add any comment as to the absurdity of this edict. It is clear that the “Official Order” aims to prevent bright eyed and blinkered dues paying members avoiding contact with the “Tangins.” Shiva and Ignant are as the Pillars of Boaz and Jachin. You don't get to waltz on through without having your bullshit jumped on.

 

Horemakhet, however, is not a troll and is one of our strange online Brotherhood.

 

It is my understanding that the “DIO” reference is an allusion to pre-Christian models of the Christ-Form. Wasn't there a Jesuit who conjured the theory of “Satanic Time Travel” to account for the similarities between Jesus and Mithras? Satan went back in time and created the Mithraic religion to discredit Christianity.

 

This is all very Joseph Campbell, yes?

 

Again, I appreciate Shiva “reading” Barbara in terms of the Trans-Dogmatic Template. I appreciate Barbara for expressing her view of Life, The Universe and Everything. And I also appreciate Horemakhet for pointing toward an antecedent of Christic Symbology.


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Posts: 1656
09/11/2020 5:28 am  
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

This is all very Joseph Campbell, yes?

Sort of, yes!

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Shiva and Ignant are as the Pillars of Boaz and Jachin.

And so would this make you the middle pillar?

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Again, I appreciate ... I appreciate ... And I also appreciate ....

For "blessed are the peacemakers..." (Matthew 5:9)

🤩 N Joy


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1885
09/11/2020 5:40 am  
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Posted by:

 

Again, I appreciate ... I appreciate ... And I also appreciate ....

I think appreciation can be a nice thing, don't you? It was a quality Chogyam Trunga emphasized. It's also a way in which we can bring diverse elements together. Instead of being caught in a head-butting game of A vs. B, we might, perchance, find a means to escape the battle-pit (over which the Archons place their bets) and launch into new possibilities.   

 


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laethe
(@laethe)
Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 9
09/11/2020 11:00 am  

On the topic of this thread, I was interested today to discover that the Amado Crowley community facebook page has become reasonably active this year, after lying pretty much dormant since 2012.

It has a couple of very nice photos of Amado. One probably taken in his forties - quite nostalgic for me to see this, as it is very much how I remember him. Another taken in his twenties.

BTW, I have no connection with the facebook page, do not know who the administrator is, and am not following the page.

https://www.facebook.com/Amado-Crowley-146109855462189/


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3339
09/11/2020 12:14 pm  
Posted by: @horemakhet

Two ancient guys from USA run this forum, apparently.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I think some may be intimidated by the activity of Shiva and Ignant.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Shiva and Ignant are as the Pillars of Boaz and Jachin.

I mean, we do both post often, but it's not like that stops anyone else from posting, or disagreeing with us, or proving us wrong.

Show us all your superior knowledge and understanding of AC's work, or of The Work; shame us, humiliate us, dazzle us! Of course, since Shiva has been digging into these matters since the early '60s, and i since the early '70s, that may take some doing.

And it's not as if we are some monolith who always agree about everything- while we are friends, there's lots we differ on. Shiva is apolitical or anti-political, i am a Far Left nut, to pick an obvious example. And when we first encountered each other here, we were not exactly friendly.

I don't run this forum, but i, just like all of you, am allowed to post here, just like anyone else is allowed to post and call me an idiot. So posts like the above "you stupid Xians are just a sublimated Dionysian cult and are too 'ignorant of history' to know it, unlike me, who am Intelligent and Enlightened" can expect to get called on their ignorance of history, and rudeness to a visiting outsider.

 


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2569
09/11/2020 4:18 pm  

@hormakhet

How old are you our friend?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3339
09/11/2020 4:39 pm  

@Horemakhet was 26 in November 2004, so he is now a spritely 42 years young, fully entitled to call an aged crock of 61 like me "ancient".

Presumably, with this mocking folks for being older than him, he still plans to "die before he gets old", and is busy living fast, so he can die middle-aged, and leave a good-looking corpse.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5341
09/11/2020 9:26 pm  
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Horemakhet is not a troll and has been a member here for as long as anyone.

He has sided with the long-term member Mal/Xon against the "the old farts." He was there when the long-term Mal transformed into Xon the Terrible, but then he ducked aside.

In general, H.'. is not a troll, but he has his moments ("breaks"). Long Term Membership doesn't mean anything when someone takes a break and runs with it.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I think some may be intimidated by the activity of Shiva and Ignant.

Yeah, it's hard to stand up against the twin warriors. It seems like new folks who are nice get nicely treated by both of us, in a kindly manner. But if anyone quotes Fake News or displays Importance, Ignant the Terrible will start the rending. If anyone Confuses the Plains or Defines Higher States with their Mind, I take to the soap box.

I am proud to hear that the Tong has put us on the Blacklist.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Shiva and Ignant are as the Pillars of Boaz and Jachin. You don't get to waltz on through without having your bullshit jumped on.

Tyler! Tyler! Where's the Tyler?

The Old Farts, Farter Ignant and Farter Shiva, are snoozing in the back room.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Wasn't there a Jesuit who conjured the theory of “Satanic Time Travel” to account for the similarities between Jesus and Mithras? Satan went back in time and created the Mithraic religion to discredit Christianity.

I hadn't heard that joke before. I'm still looking for the punch bowl line.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

And so would this make you the middle pillar?

Pretty much, yes. The Middle Pillar (MP = 120) has a pretty good number, and he will live to a ripe old RC age.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Chogyam Trung[p]a

I really appreciated Chog's Cutting Though Spiritual Materialism at a critical point in my journey. It later emerged that he had a rather healthy cocaine habit. That's okay, but he'd never get the II* in the Official Organ, because a clause in the I* prohibits addiction. I wonder how BafometR got through those early grades. Oh, yes, he was catapulted to the higher levels. Reuss accused him of jump-claiming and made him take the secret Oath.

Posted by: @ignant666

anyone else is allowed to post and call me an idiot.

The funny thing is, you are. Me, too. The original meaning of an Idiot in Ancient Greekland was a person who stood "alone." He would be glimpsed moving about in the shadows outside the forum where everyone was gathered for social democracy.

"Idio-" is a prefix essentially meaning "alone." An idiopathic is a disease that is unique and falls into no known category of maladies. 

The Order of Idiots (OI = 80, a key number linked to 61, Nothing) is hereby initiated. Here is our Manifesto.


Members must pay their fees and dues in advance


Enough, enough! Go to your back room and snooze.

 


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3339
09/11/2020 10:42 pm  

Worth noting that the very youthful Hormemakhet has already been threatened by Paul with banning for an earlier post in this thread, asking Barbara essentially the same question he has here, although this time it is gussied up in pompous pseudo-intellectual verbiage reflecting Horemakhet's lack of understanding of the cult of Dionysus, or of Xianity, and isn't so frankly vulgar and offensive.

Which is i guess some sort of improvement.

 


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dom
 dom
(@dom)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 2569
10/11/2020 6:41 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

@Horemakhet was 26 in November 2004, so he is now a spritely 42 years young, fully entitled to call an aged crock of 61 like me "ancient".

Presumably, with this mocking folks for being older than him, he still plans to "die before he gets old", and is busy living fast, so he can die middle-aged, and leave a good-looking corpse.

..and he permanently has a water-bottle by his side? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 3339
10/11/2020 6:53 pm  

Although he is also from British Columbia, i do not think he is Mal/Xon, nor do i offer any hypotheses as to his possible habits.

Other than the obvious "Live fast, die middle-aged, leave a good-looking corpse" part, to ensure that he does not endure the horror of living another 19 years, and becoming "ancient" like me.


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