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Yeats's poetry "lacked virlity"?

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David Dom Lemieux
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 Crowley in his G.D. years commented that Yeats's poetry "lacked virlity"? 

 

Page 50 Colin Wilson's Aleister Crolwey The Nature Of The Beast, Aquarian Press 1987.

 

What do you think?  Did it and if yes then why?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

What do you think?

I think Crowley down-played, down-shot, and down-sized anybody else who had an interest in things that he (AC) was interested in ... poetry, mysticism, women, men, etc.  The competition all got the verbal ax, the bad word, the derogatory dump. 


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David Dom Lemieux
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I was thinking more of a fan of Yeats who could tell us if the work did actually lack virility. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @dom

I was thinking more of a fan of Yeats who could tell us if the work did actually lack virility. 

It did not.

Crowley was jealous. Unfortunately for him (Crowley, that is), history does not (nor shall it) side with his accusation that Yeats was envious of him, in any way. 

I've made this remark on many an occasion-and, of course, the perspective is only my own. Crowley was not in any way an original poet. He was very talented, very skilled. He shows off in his verse and wants us all to know what a wonderful wordsmith he is. But for all his vocabulary, all his meter and rhyme, all his thematic allusions, he crafts "by the book" and brings nothing new to the table (unless we regard his vulgarities as something more than novelties).

It's clear that "being a poet of renown" was very important to Crowley. Thus, his output is voluminous. Alas, it's a bore compared to someone like...Yeats.

But please don't misunderstand me here. I think Crowley's PROSE is second to none-and this is influenced endlessly by his poetic pursuits. There is verse he has written which I enjoy-but I cannot pretend it is revolutionary in any regard. 

Shiva is correct:

Posted by: @shiva

The competition all got the verbal ax, the bad word, the derogatory dump.

As much as Crowley WROTE about wanting something more than slavish followers, wanting his readers "to cut their own way through the jungle, " he really couldn't handle anyone doing that if it seemed they'd outpace him.

And Yeats outpaced him.

 

 

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

And Yeats outpaced him.

There was also this person, Edwin Arthwaite by name, who wrote many magic books and even a Tarot setup that was very popular (perhaps the most popular?).  Crowley crucified him in The Equinox and in his novel.

I would nominate Mathers, Yeats, and Waite to the dark triad that propelled Perdurabo to new heights ... and new depths of character assassination. 


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @shiva

I would nominate Mathers, Yeats, and Waite to the dark triad that propelled Perdurabo to new heights ... and new depths of character assassination. 

It may be arguable that AC pushed beyond what Mathers and Waite offered in terms of Magic. But it may also be argued that he shot off into his own sphere of dysfunction and personal obsession. Still, the question remains: was Yeats the better poet? 

I think, for Crowley, that this problem may have bothered him more than his claims to authoritative titles such as Magus and Ipsissimus. After all, you can be the most Holy and Enlightened and still be a mediocre poet.

Which was the case with Crowley.

Yeats was better. And there would only be a flood of poets who would outshine the Beast. Dylan Thomas. Ezra Pound. E.E. Cummings. And more-!

Crowley envisioned a "New Aeon." But he wrote of it in "Old Aeon" aesthetics.

 

 

 

 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

 

I've made this remark on many an occasion-and, of course, the perspective is only my own. Crowley was not in any way an original poet. He was very talented, very skilled. He shows off in his verse and wants us all to know what a wonderful wordsmith he is. But for all his vocabulary, all his meter and rhyme, all his thematic allusions, he crafts "by the book" and brings nothing new to the table (unless we regard his vulgarities as something more than novelties).

But please don't misunderstand me here. I think Crowley's PROSE is second to none-and this is influenced endlessly by his poetic pursuits. There is verse he has written which I enjoy-but I cannot pretend it is revolutionary in any regard. 

 

 

 

 

Ditto here.

I think Hymn to Pan stands out. I'd say it transcends mere poetry, into actual incantation.

Then there are the verses he got via magick, such as Mu pa telai and Omari tessala marax. These are more than poetry.

But as a wordsmith, counting feet and torturing rhymes, his work is mostly tedious, despite some sublime lines. 

 


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Horemakhet
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https://youtu.be/lWV4jufVvdA

... speaking of 'virility'!


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hadgigegenraum
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@horemakhet

Yes speaking of poetic 'virility'..."My Gitana, my Saliya, I am coming back to you!"

...Of a man who dared to disturb the universe and kiss the lips...rather than some Prufrockian shut in...

Yes what a gift to hear from a poet who lived the longing, upon a recitation long enough to envelope one into pulsating whorls of an inextinguishable passion, enfolded into a such bursts of refrain among some of his most potent lines...not destroyed by smothering filagrees he once indulged...with out end...

 


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christibrany
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@kidneyhawk

 

I think in general when Crowley sat down 'to write a poem' the results were often too verbose and not very evocative.  You have some exceptions mentioned already like Gitana or Hym to Pan, or even I would argue, AHA! and some bits in book of Lies.  

 

When he really shone as a poet, was when he was not (supposedly) thinking of the lines but rather inspired by God and channeled them into the Holy Books.  Parts of Liber LXV and Liber VII are totally gorgeous and sublime. 

 

  1. Verily and Amen! I passed through the deep sea, and by the rivers of running water that abound therein, and I came unto the Land of No Desire.
  2. Wherein was a white unicorn with a silver collar, whereon was graven the aphorism Linea viridis gyrat universa.
  3. Then the word of Adonai came unto me by the mouth of the Magister mine, saying: O heart that art girt about with the coils of the old serpent, lift up thyself unto the mountain of initiation!
  4. But I remembered. Yea, Than, yea, Theli, yea, Lilith! these three were about me from of old. For they are one.
  5. Beautiful wast thou, O Lilith, thou serpent-woman!
  6. Thou wast lithe and delicious to the taste, and thy perfume was of musk mingled with ambergris.
  7. Close didst thou cling with thy coils unto the heart, and it was as the joy of all the spring.
  8. But I beheld in thee a certain taint, even in that wherein I delighted.
  9. I beheld in thee the taint of thy father the ape, of thy grandsire the Blind Worm of Slime.
  10. I gazed upon the Crystal of the Future, and I saw the horror of the End of thee.
  11. Further, I destroyed the time Past, and the time to Come—had I not the Power of the Sand-glass?
  12. But in the very hour I beheld corruption.
  13. Then I said: O my beloved, O Lord Adonai, I pray thee to loosen the coils of the serpent!

...

 

 

1. O my beautiful God! I swim in Thy heart like a trout in the mountain torrent.

2. I leap from pool to pool in my joy; I am goodly with brown and gold and silver.

3. Why, I am lovelier than the russet autumn woods at the first snowfall.

4. And the crystal cave of my thought is lovelier than I.

5. Only one fish-hook can draw me out; it is a woman kneeling by the bank of the stream. It is she that pours the bright dew over herself, and into the sand so that the river gushes forth.

6. There is a bird on yonder myrtle; only the song of that bird can draw me out of the pool of Thy heart, O my God!


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hadgigegenraum
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Yes the Holy Books do represent a certain Crowning... beyond the foams of form and formulations found in the Collected Works...though not lacking in distillations of such allusions steeped in lyric Grecian Revival garb spun with Old Testament threads, might the cretans worship the very cyclops of such wonders condensed later into perfumes issuing from the writ in sigils of spermatic secrets upon the menstrums of amens...

Or come to find such in such inventive trails of ink from the scuttlefish, such plumes of wafting words the evidence in many lines and verse of genius strived for....

Thus regarding virility of poetry, something went viral with Crowley's poetry or rather venereal one could say,  or hear, to which the comment about the genius of his prose I would agree and to which Yeats's line that Eddy wrote say six lines of decent poetry is the virile retort to a rich braggart then...

Over the years I havel attempt to read the Collected Works to which I still marvel at the sheer volume of voluminousness output that all seems like a warm up for greater pretense to which I am quite amazed as I  get completely lost in what the fuck is being said, as I am sure that is crossing minds this very moment...

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

I  get completely lost in what the fuck is being said, as I am sure that is crossing minds this very moment...

This very moment is one in which I recommend the Class D stuff, with caution warnings on the other letters.


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the_real_simon_iff
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I think he also has some good love poetry, he fell in love so easily. I like this one, maybe because there is this this beautiful recital by Genesis P Orridge.

 

At Stockholm

We could not speak, although the sudden glow
Of passion mantling to the crimson cheek

Of either, told our tale of love, although
We could not speak.

What need of language, barren and false and bleak,
While our white arms could link each other so,

And fond red lips their partners mutely seek?

What time for language, when our kisses flow
Eloquent, warm, as words are cold and weak? —

Or now — Ah! sweetheart, even were it so
We could not speak.

 

Love=Law

Lutz


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ignant666
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

At Stockholm

This poem of course commemorates AC having sex with a man for the first time- a "virile" topic if ever there was one!

 


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hadgigegenraum
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Stockholm Syndrome...


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Tiger
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Oh is that what happened in Stockholm ?
i was thinking it was about a moment where the Sun light of ego and the moon light of intuition were in ah enchanted rapport unheard of by the false and bleak, barren tongue of ordinary complexion.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

At Stockholm

This poem of course commemorates AC having sex with a man for the first time- a "virile" topic if ever there was one!

 

Where are you finding this odd definition of the adjective 'virile'?  I say this because here's mine (i.e. the traditional one);

 
virile
/ˈvɪrʌɪl/
 
adjective
  1. having strength, energy, and a strong sex drive (typically used of a man).
    "he was a powerful, virile man"...............
     

.....so as you can see 'homosexuality' is not equated with virility.    

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @dom

'homosexuality' is not equated with virility.    

"Vir", the root of "virile", is Latin for "man".

"Homosexuality" is manly men having manly sex with other manly men- your definition says "having strength, energy, and a strong sex drive (typically used of a man)." Hetero sex involves women, who are not men.

Small hint: i was making a joke (that everyone else seems to have gotten). I think also that you may have some work to do on dealing with homophobia?

 

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666

"Vir", the root of "virile", is Latin for "man".

"Homosexuality" is manly men having manly sex with other manly men-

 

But we don't know if this Swedish partner of AC's was about as manly as Peewee Herman.

Me homophobic?  One of my best friends doesn't seem to think that (he's gay). 

 

OT; how is poetry 'virile' anyway?  AC was attacking Yeat's  (perceived) scrawniness I guess. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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kidneyhawk
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Posted by: @dom

OT; how is poetry 'virile' anyway?  AC was attacking Yeat's  (perceived) scrawniness I guess. 

 

I discovered Yeats through Blake, as the former poet was mentioned in various books I was pawing through on the latter's work. Both he and Crowley (who I would not read for years yet) owed a debt of gratitude to London's spiritual genius. So my younger self would be steering his bark in the general direction of the library once again. When I read The Second Coming, I was immediately taken into its space and impacted by its figures. It felt like a vast and apocalyptic storm, an instance of experiencing the “Sublime” of the Romantics. No lack of “virility” there.

 

But the issue of “virility” seems two-fold. Is it one of style or theme? I've already expressed my thought that Crowley tends toward the restraint of form as opposed to creating new form via poetic daring. Ergo, he may write of “virile and manly” things-but he does so from clinging to a formulaic foundation (not so "virile").

 

Now, I don't wish to come across as if I disdain all of Crowley's poetry or feel he was a failure because he was less experimental than others who came after. There is no question that he wrote some very rousing lines. But here's the thing...I don't think there is ANYTHING “Crowleyan” about Crowley. In other words, no one is ever going to read some verse and think “that really seems like Crowley.” There is nothing in Crowley's style to distinguish himself (save his “naughtiness”-which is thematic). By contrast, there are passages in, say, Ginsburg which clearly remind one of both Whitman and Blake. One can indicate a clear and unique style being identified here.

 

But I think Shiva pegged the problem early on here. Crowley made things a contest with Yeats. It didn't have to be that way-or maybe it did. His accusation against Yeats, if substantiated, is silly and foolish. I doubt any Yeats scholar would think for a moment that Crowley was even a close contender with the “Man of Ireland.”


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

.....so as you can see 'homosexuality' is not equated with virility.    

I must have missed the part of your quoted definition where it said "heterosexual."

I believe gay or bi people have a sex drive. I may be wrong.

I'll bet you catch a raft full of shinola for your concept or your conclusion ... but not from me.

Posted by: @ignant666

you may have some work to do on dealing with homophobia?

Such a gentle touch for such a wide breach in logic and genderism.

Posted by: @dom

Peewee Herman.

Now there was a dude.

"Sometime in 1979 Reubens debuted his character on the television show The Dating Game, appearing three times." - wiki

Posted by: @dom

AC was attacking Yeat's  (perceived) scrawniness I guess. 

Well, when they faced off the epic encounter, The Battle of Blythe Road, Yeats had brought a pugilist along. I think, today, we call such a companion a thug, or a bodyguard.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

 

...I don't think there is ANYTHING “Crowleyan” about Crowley. In other words, no one is ever going to read some verse and think “that really seems like Crowley.” There is nothing in Crowley's style to distinguish himself (save his “naughtiness”-which is thematic).

How about the directness and total disregard for the creative-restraints of society i.e. the 'telling it like it is-ness' in e.g. Leah Sublime but he did that in other poems also?  I mean  yeah it's crazy and that seems to be Crowleyan.  Mind you my appreciation for poetry generally stops with Keats and Rimbaud.  

You call the following 'genius'?

 

I was angry with my friend:
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

And I watered it in fears,
Night and morning with my tears;
And I sunned it with smiles,
And with soft deceitful wiles.

And it grew both day and night,
Till it bore an apple bright.
And my foe beheld it shine.
And he knew that it was mine,

And into my garden stole
When the night had veiled the pole;
In the morning glad I see
My foe outstretched beneath the tree.

 

How?

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Horemakhet
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Even Yeat's father was out to make trouble for AC when he was in America. So any of these fantasies that Yeats was so far above him ethically is balderdash. The guy was a complete ***_.


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Tiger
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“ Beneath his feet is the kingdom, and upon his head the crown.
He is spirit and matter; he is peace and power; in him is Chaos and Night and Pan,
and upon BABALON his concubine, that hath made him drunk upon the blood of the saints
that she hath gathered in her golden cup,
hath he begotten the virgin that now he doth deflower.
And this is that which is written:
Malkuth shall be uplifted and set upon the throne of Binah.
And this is the stone of the philosophers that is set
as a seal upon the tomb of Tetragrammaton,
and the elixir of life that is distilled from the blood of the saints,
and the red powder that is the grinding-up of the bones of Choronzon.

Terrible and wonderful is the Mystery thereof,
O thou Titan666
that hast climbed into the bed of Juno!
Surely thou art bound unto, and broken upon, the wheel;
yet hast thou uncovered the nakedness of the Holy One, and the Queen of Heaven
is in travail of child, and his name shall be called

Vir, and Vis, and Virus, and Virtus, and Viridis, VVVVV

in one name that is all these, and above all these. “

A.C.
The Cry of the 4th Aethyr,
Which is Called PAZ


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Michael Staley
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Posted by: @dom

How about the directness and total disregard for the creative-restraints of society i.e. the 'telling it like it is-ness' in e.g. Leah Sublime but he did that in other poems also?

Personally I think that Leah Sublime is tedious rubbish, irrespective of any "directness" and "total disregard for the creative restraints of society" that may be there. I agree with Kyle and others, that it is unlikely that Yeats was jealous of Crowley's prowess as a poet.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @michael-staley

. I agree with Kyle and others, that it is unlikely that Yeats was jealous of Crowley's prowess as a poet.

Just to be clear I never argued about what Yeats may've thought about Crowley, however for what it's worth I read some Yeats years ago and found it to be nauseating. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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Posted by: @dom

i [...] found [Yeats] to be nauseating. 

This from a fan of poems about eating syphilitic pus and shit?

Umm, well, "different strokes for different folks", i guess.

 


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Horemakhet
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I consider AC to be, at least, on the level of William Blake as a poet. They both share certain characteristics as men. AC went out of his way to shock the conservative mentality of his time as to what constitutes Art & Spirituality. If we include works such as 'The Book Of Lies' & 'The Vision & The Voice'. then there is no contest between Yeats & himself. Yeats represents the establishment. They have to tell you how great he was. A poem like 'Leah Sublime' is a middle finger to them. He had others. If some here have a problem with that then perhaps they should start/join a Yeats society. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @horemakhet

Even Yeat's father was out to make trouble for AC when he was in America. So any of these fantasies that Yeats was so far above him ethically is balderdash. The guy was a complete _.

I am confused. Why does the father's actions have anything to do with caste and condescension? "Balderdash" is recogizable, but "-" is not dictionariable, so the puch-word in your punch-line cannot be deciphered or punched..

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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A poem by Yeats in which Zeus as a Swan rapes a female;

Leda and the Swan

A sudden blow: the great wings beating still

Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed

By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,

He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

 

How can those terrified vague fingers push

The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?

And how can body, laid in that white rush,

But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

 

A shudder in the loins engenders there

The broken wall, the burning roof and tower

And Agamemnon dead.

Being so caught up,

So mastered by the brute blood of the air,

Did she put on his knowledge with his power

Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?

 

I dunno am I missing something here?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Horemakhet
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@shiva

The son must have told the father about his rival in the same terms that he did within the Golden Dawn. We're not talking about just 'jealousy' here. We have one guy (Yeats) who uses every means necessary to hurt AC. That is Hate. 


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Tiger
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A.C. was probably into the Decadent movement and a Punk Rocker without an instrument before rock n roll as well.


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @dom

i [...] found [Yeats] to be nauseating. 

This from a fan of poems about eating syphilitic pus and shit?

Umm, well, "different strokes for different folks", i guess.

 

Crowley had more than a passing interest in medicine, I'm looking for the details of a book he wrote on the subject.    

Somewhere in here;

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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david (who has now been dom for longer than he was david i think): You responded to me commenting about what seemed to me to be your eccentric views on the degree of  disgusting-ness of AC's poems about

Posted by: @ignant666

eating syphilitic pus and shit

by saying

Posted by: @dom

Crowley had more than a passing interest in medicine

Can you perhaps connect the dots here for me, or is this the total non sequitur it appears to be?

Is eating poo-poos, and vaginal pus discharges, somehow connected in your mind with the practice of medicine? Just baffled by this post of yours, not for the first time.


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Shiva
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As far as I can tell (and being one of them), Crowley had no more than a passing interest in medicine. His writings and bios do not reflect any medical abilities or practices (except for self-medicating). People, including kids, were known to die all around him, so why did he not save them with the Universal Medicine (which is supposed to be a boon if you're in the Ordo)?

Actually, he did not even have a passing interest in what we call wellness tody (the healthy lifestyle, similar to Taoist longevity practices in dit and moderation).

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva

As far as I can tell (and being one of them), Crowley had no more than a passing interest in medicine. His writings and bios do not reflect any medical abilities or practices (except for self-medicating). People, including kids, were known to die all around him, so why did he not save them with the Universal Medicine (which is supposed to be a boon if you're in the Ordo)?

Actually, he did not even have a passing interest in what we call wellness tody (the healthy lifestyle, similar to Taoist longevity practices in dit and moderation).

 

That's actually bullshit but you're entitled to it.  I think it was Alan Watts who said that Crowley aspired to be a healer in the Hermetic tradition.

@Ignant666

I said that that poem was 'crazy' and it is of course in the perverted sense.  It's certainly not a poem I'd want to read at a recital event however I can see that it was written in the vein of facing aversion and also Crowley's interest in medicine i.e. diseases.  He said that a doctor must 'love' cholera in order to find a cure.  He wrote some prose about such things i think with help from a Dr friend of his and I can't find the reference.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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David Dom Lemieux
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Below is is a quote from Yeats on the AC timeline;
  • April 17: At the request of Mathers, AC attempts to seize the Vault of the Adepts and the property of Isis-Urania that was housed at 36 Blythe Road. With the lease not being in his name he had no legal right to any of the property and left without anything. William Butler Yeats writes of it, "...(Mathers) sent a mad man- whom we refused to initiate- to take possession of the rooms and papers of the Society. ..." Yeats continues, "The envoy is really Crowley, a quite unspeakable person. He is I believe seeking vengeance for us not initiating him......Mathers like all despots must have a favourite and this is the lad."

 

..

I wonder why even at this stage Yeats describes AC as a quite unspeakable person.

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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belmurru
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Posted by: @dom

 Crowley in his G.D. years commented that Yeats's poetry "lacked virlity"? 

 

Page 50 Colin Wilson's Aleister Crolwey The Nature Of The Beast, Aquarian Press 1987.

 

 

Wilson, maddeningly, does not give a reference for the apparent quotation. It took me awhile to find it. 

Confessions, page 165: 

I remember one curious incident in connection with this volume [Mysteries, Lyrical and Dramatic]. I had a set of paged proofs in my pocket one evening, when I went to call on W. B. Yeats. I had never thought much of his work; it seemed to me lack virility. I have given an extended criticism of it in The Equinox (vol. I, no. II, page 307). However, at that time I should have been glad to have a kindly word from an elder man. I showed him the proofs accordingly and he glanced through them. He forced himself to utter a few polite conventionalities, but I could see what the truth of the matter was. 

I had by this time become fairly expert in clairvoyance, clairaudience and clairsentience. But it would have been a very dull person indeed who failed to recognize the black, bilious rage that shook him to the soul. I instance this as a proof that Yeats was a genuine poet at heart, for a mere charlatan would have known that he had no cause to fear an authentic poet. What hurt him was the knowledge of his own incomparable inferiority.


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belmurru
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What about Crowley's "extended criticism" of Yeats in "The Equinox (vol. I, no. II, page 307)"? 

It's not there. 

I checked the 1929 edition of Confessions, to see if the 1969 had mangled the reference. Nope, pp. 229-230 give the same reference. 

Googling around, I finally found it with some magical keywords, partially quoted on somebody's Facebook page. The quotations aren't sourced, but a phrase of a few words brings up the source -

"The Shadowy Dill-Waters, or, Mr. Sludge the Medium" in The Equinox I, vol. III, pages 327-331

It begins - 

In our investigation of the trumpery tin Pantheon of Aunt Sallies which our country calls 'literary gents,' one of the most striking figures is a certain lame duck that suggests a mixed ancestry of Bringand manqué and the Ghost in the Bab Ballads.

Historically, too, the subject has its advantage, for not only does the work of Weary Willie suggest primal Chaos, but himself recalls the Flood. He seems to have desired to emulate Noah, but the modern tendency to specialisation has led him to confine his attentions to the Insect World, and the remarkable jumping qualities of some of his specimens have their correspondence in the metre of those treacly emulsions which it is our present purpose to study.

Come with me! Behold the scene of action. What? You can see nothing? Of course not. It's out of focus, and the limelight is but a farthing dip. Never mind; take the slide, and hold it to the light! Ah! there's a well - a druid well; a wood - a druid wood; a boat (druid) on a druid sea. Why Druid? Because Willie is not a British workman. The expletive is harmless enough. Look! More wells and woods and boats and apple-blossoms. When in doubt, play apple-blossom. Try and scan it as a dactyl. You can't? He can.

Yeats is nowhere mentioned by name - he is only called "Weary Willie." 

The work criticised is Yeats' The Shadowy Waters, published 1901.


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belmurru
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Typo in my transcription of the original quote. It should be -

"... it seemed to me to lack virility."


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David Dom Lemieux
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I could not find what I thought was a reference about Crowley's series of prose or poems on various medical diseases done with the help of a Dr friend.  I thought it was in his Cambridge days but there's nothing in the official Lashtal AC timeline unless I somehow missed it...or dreamt it. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @dom

it was Alan Watts who said that Crowley aspired to be a healer in the Hermetic tradition.

Then why did (many) people die around him; why were they (all) often sick; why do we not have one example of anyone being cured by the Universal Medicine, herbs, or the Master Healer's touch??? (That's a three point question).

You are very quick with the BS engram. Let's put it this way: If you were really deathly sick (or even had a mild headache), would you seek out the Master Therion, or would you seek out a professional medic?

Posted by: @dom

AC as a quite unspeakable person.

Yeats then goes on to speak about him, so it seems he wasn't "unspeakable."

 


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hadgigegenraum
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@belmurru

Thanks for more research!

Here is a link to scan of Yeats's "The Shadowy Waters" from Archive.org so people can judge for themselves...

https://archive.org/details/waters00yeatshadowyrich/mode/2up

I suppose that Howley showing his bile per the review in The Equinox Vol. III, etc... thus qualified himself, AC,  "a genuine poet at heart" per his own definition in this attack upon his old pal Willy: 

"But it would have been a very dull person indeed who failed to recognize the black, bilious rage that shook him to the soul. I instance this as a proof that Yeats was a genuine poet at heart, for a mere charlatan would have known that he had no cause to fear an authentic poet. What hurt him was the knowledge of his own incomparable inferiority." Confessions of Aleister Crowley p. 165


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belmurru
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@belmurru

Thanks for more research!

Here is a link to scan of Yeats's "The Shadowy Waters" from Archive.org so people can judge for themselves...

https://archive.org/details/waters00yeatshadowyrich/mode/2up

I suppose that Howley showing his bile per the review in The Equinox Vol. III, etc... thus qualified himself, AC,  "a genuine poet at heart" per his own definition in this attack upon his old pal Willy: 

"But it would have been a very dull person indeed who failed to recognize the black, bilious rage that shook him to the soul. I instance this as a proof that Yeats was a genuine poet at heart, for a mere charlatan would have known that he had no cause to fear an authentic poet. What hurt him was the knowledge of his own incomparable inferiority." Confessions of Aleister Crowley p. 165

Dom David's conversation starters aren't always well-referenced, so it's helpful to put his offhand remarks in context. More importantly, it helps to refresh one's memory and educate people interested in the topic. Not that there's anything wrong with flitting around like a butterfly! 

I disagree with your characterisation of Crowley's attitude towards Yeats (Re: "Howley" - It's also self-defeating to openly mock the object of your comments if you want your readers to take your comments as reasonable appraisals). 

I think Crowley was being perfectly honest in his feelings about Yeats, rather than projecting his own sense of inferiority. That is, he really thought Yeats' verse was just soft, vague, pastel-coloured rubbish. He couldn't understand what anyone really got from it. The fact that most people thought, and think, Yeats the better poet, just means that Crowley had no respect for the opinions of most people. He was not in denial about who was the better poet, he just had other standards of what constitutes true poetry. 

And is it a popularity contest, or a majority vote?  


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David Dom Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @dom

it was Alan Watts who said that Crowley aspired to be a healer in the Hermetic tradition.

Then why did (many) people die around him; why were they (all) often sick; why do we not have one example of anyone being cured by the Universal Medicine, herbs, or the Master Healer's touch??? (That's a three point question).

You are very quick with the BS engram. Let's put it this way: If you were really deathly sick (or even had a mild headache), would you seek out the Master Therion, or would you seek out a professional medic?

Loveday yes great example of how AC was not a Dr but I didn't claim that he was a Dr.
 
AC and his preoccupation with Thelema was all about well-being e.g. if you read his Yoga for Yahoos blurb he talks about how businessmen who have bad nerves (etc) would benefit from the book.  He tutored Jane Wolfe on how to still her nerves at Cefalu by sending her on a mountain retreat and likewise it could be argued that his speech to Bennet at Cefalu would not go amiss in any lecture on modern psychotherapy.  He also pointed out that (was it  Mudd?)  had "never made love to a woman.. thanks to his neuroses'' etc.   
 
In fact it's almost like AC saw his Cefalu experiment as  a solution to modern psychological ills e.g. loosening the shockability towards pornographic murals and encouraging children to learn about morality by not interfering with their own autonomous exploration (of e.g. the dangers of cigarettes).  Now it can also be be argued that he was delusional and it went off the rails like the Spahn Ranch did but we're talking about his self-image here and not necessarily reality.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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hadgigegenraum
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@belmurru

Dom's question seems to have a bit of virility to it...it may not be up to your standards, but he got the bitch pregnant & as other threads are on life support or otherwise confined to scatological interests...

On that note "Howley" is appropriate considering the context of the spat with Willie, but I suppose AC is the only one that can call people names....but of course the Wander of the Waste could never be jealous, and of course was never interested in getting mass attention, like the World Teacher project or the fact that Magick in Theory and Practices is for the proletariate 

But back to poetry to which I do think it a howl that Crowley would, in your words, think Yeats's work to be "soft, vague, pastel-colored rubbish" but not Crowley's, as being a forced mash of primary colors suffocating from so many lips like sunsets hurled against rocks as the myriad of mythic allusions pasted together in facile rhyme requires a classics library at hand...

Anyways it would seem one fellow had a publisher the other a vanity press! One nearly forgotten the other fodder for titillating video voyeurism or other fetishes at the edge of mass culture...

And lest we forget some serious work known as the invitation to the Great Work!

93


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hadgigegenraum
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@Dom

Maybe a Crowley as healer thread might be appropriate...this one is about poetry...I think....


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hadgigegenraum
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@dom

Yes it would seem you have been reading Colin Wilson...Good!


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belmurru
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

@belmurru

On that note "Howley" is appropriate considering the context of the spat with Willie, but I suppose AC is the only one that can call people names....but of course the Wander of the Waste could never be jealous, and of course was never interested in getting mass attention, like the World Teacher project or the fact that Magick in Theory and Practices is for the proletariate 

 

93

Of course you may do as you please, but then I'll be as inclined to take your criticism of Crowley as seriously as I take his of W. B. Yeats or A. E. Waite, and many others he mocked. Crowley's style makes the irrelevance of the substance of most of his critiques a pleasure to read, and when he was most biting he was also at his funniest. If you can match his facility with the language, then maybe I'll laugh along with your “Howley.” Otherwise, it is just a childish taunt, and detracts from your argument.

Crowley is the object of my study, not my model for writing. So, insofar as the reviews reveal what moved him, they have intrinsic value, however little insight I gain about the actual work or person he himself was addressing.

Dom's question seems to have a bit of virility to it...it may not be up to your standards, but he got the bitch pregnant & as other threads are on life support or otherwise confined to scatological interests...

Concerning Dom's own virility I have no opinion. Getting the bitch pregnant is not the first metaphor that comes to mind. But let's go with it. Sure, he says he knocked her up, then splits for the next easy lay. And they are easy, because they're usually in the form of “hey, I read/heard somebody say this about such and such, what do you think?”, and the rest of us have to step in and raise the child, if we care to. My typical contribution is to find the real paternity.

I don't mind this method, as I said, there's nothing wrong with flitting about like a butterfly, and it gives me a chance to learn more about Crowley and his commentators, among other things. To each his own.

But back to poetry to which I do think it a howl that Crowley would, in your words, think Yeats's work to be "soft, vague, pastel-colored rubbish" but not Crowley's, as being a forced mash of primary colors suffocating from so many lips like sunsets hurled against rocks as the myriad of mythic allusions pasted together in facile rhyme requires a classics library at hand...

Anyways it would seem one fellow had a publisher the other a vanity press! One nearly forgotten the other fodder for titillating video voyeurism or other fetishes at the edge of mass culture...

I myself enjoy Yeats' poetry much more than Crowley's. I'm with the mainstream on this, I don't think the consensus is wrong. 


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belmurru
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

 

But back to poetry to which I do think it a howl that Crowley would, in your words, think Yeats's work to be "soft, vague, pastel-colored rubbish" but not Crowley's, as being a forced mash of primary colors suffocating from so many lips like sunsets hurled against rocks as the myriad of mythic allusions pasted together in facile rhyme requires a classics library at hand...

 

I think you have a good insight here for why most people find Crowley's poetry so "bad." They aren't self-contained, but require a key, or many keys. We naturally want a poem to speak for itself, to have everything it needs to be understood, to strike us immediately, with simplicity and clarity. We shouldn't have to fight to make any sense of it, let alone to merely enjoy it. 

Not all of Crowley's poetry is so academic or erudite, along with being formally rigid, but so much is that it makes it seem like he was a terrible poet for the most part. 


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