You're referring to AL Chapter 3:44;
Yes, and III:43, and 45:
43 Let the Scarlet Woman beware! If pity and compassion and tenderness visit her heart; if she leave my work to toy with old sweetnesses; then shall my vengeance be known. I will slay me her child: I will alienate her heart: I will cast her out from men: as a shrinking and despised harlot shall she crawl through dusk wet streets, and die cold and an-hungered.
45 Then will I lift her to pinnacles of power: then will I breed from her a child mightier than all the kings of the earth. I will fill her with joy: with my force shall she see & strike at the worship of Nu: she shall achieve Hadit.
and of course also III:55-6:
55 Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!56 Also for beauty's sake and love's!
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
You're referring to AL Chapter 3:44;
Yes, and III:43, and 45:
43 Let the Scarlet Woman beware! If pity and compassion and tenderness visit her heart; if she leave my work to toy with old sweetnesses; then shall my vengeance be known. I will slay me her child: I will alienate her heart: I will cast her out from men: as a shrinking and despised harlot shall she crawl through dusk wet streets, and die cold and an-hungered.
45 Then will I lift her to pinnacles of power: then will I breed from her a child mightier than all the kings of the earth. I will fill her with joy: with my force shall she see & strike at the worship of Nu: she shall achieve Hadit.
and of course also III:55-6:
55 Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!56 Also for beauty's sake and love's!
Yet you fail to acknowledge my point that you miss the point. Yeah you don't need to preach to me about the crackpot weirdness sections of The Bible. I've met and talked to Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses. That is the poison of the Old Aeon yes...
Micah 7:18-19 "Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea."
and so on.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
the crackpot weirdness sections of The Bible
The point i was making, that you seem to be missing, is that whatever old Bible-writing Jew who didn't want his kids to see his wee-wee (see also Rodney Dangerfield (a Jew): "My daughter saw me coming out of the shower naked. She said 'Daddy! It's like a penis, only smaller!") is lost to history, but AC's desire that his wife Rose screw other men while he watched is more recent.
These sections of purported "holy books" are both (obvious) products of some human sexual hang-ups, but are in each case presented as being of divine origin. Anyone who swallows AL is in a very poor position to be skeptical of Genesis. And vice versa.
Leviticus 14 gives very specific and precise commandments re: how to deal with potential plague or infection in the home:
“And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house; Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city.”
In other words, if your house is riddled with infectious disease and we can't fix it in 7 days, we're dissembling and hauling it out of town! Too bad, so sad. Obviously, we handle things much differently in our brave new world. Is this in defiance of the direct commands of the Allmighty? OR...do we try to read the archaic weirdnesses of the Old Testament in terms of context? In this particular instance, to allow the house to stand would be to doom the community as the contagion would spread and render everyone infected, homeless and dying. Many other “commands” have unique contexts which need to be understood if we understand how the Spirit giveth life but the Letter killeth. Perhaps a more modern example would be wearing a mask in Coivd-Times. There are those who shriek about their rights and the Constitution...it's a public health issue and a means to curb sickness, suffering and death.
Women: cover your heads. Well, this was to ensure there would be no confusion between the early Christian Women and the prostitutes who did not cover their heads and wore their hair short. But today we have Churches where women spend an exorbitant amount of money on lavish hats and completely miss the point Paul was making. THAT would be an example of rigid fundamentalism. Obey and never question.
Ignant is correct. There are a shit-ton of WTF moments in the Bible and I think they can be examined with some curiosity and interest as opposed to damning an entire religion based on an immediate and knee-jerk reaction. People point to Onan as an example of why one shouldn't masturbate-but the tale of Onan is really one of selfishly shirking responsibility to honor and care for one's family.
I am not saying the Canonical Scriptures are all Hunky Dory. Even in the NT, I find Philemon to be repulsive and an example of co-opting a belief system to support temporal power structures. But we have the whole process of a political committee weighing in to determine what constitutes the Canonical. Some would argue that this was the Work of God. I would argue that it all left threads untied which will undo the dogmatic domain of the orthodox when examined closely. They left things out which “Open The Kingdom.” And still, the Key Initiatory Elements remain.
Any person more fortunate than myself who did not have to attend Sunday School until puberty/Confirmation, and who is thus unfamiliar with the Holy Bible, would do well to read the superb Ken's Guide To The Bible, a "guide to the Bible with a focus on sex, gore and lunacy [the 3 main topics, for those unfamiliar with the Bible]"
Obviously, i am preaching to the choir recommending this book here (though Barbara might want to give it a look), but when will we get a Ken's Guide To Liber AL?
when will we get a Ken's Guide To Liber AL?
You mean with the blood of children and how to smash insects to crush your enemies and why we all need to get our own island and eat the eyes of Jesus while we slap Mohamed this way and that and the poor scarlet women who can't keep up will be dragged through the streets?
Well, yes, exactly.
You are aware that there are folks who treat AL exactly the way Xian fundies treat the Bible?
Some of them post here when they dare (seldom), but mostly they belong to a certain Caliphornian organization (and its Associated .'. Affiliate .'.).
Who are forbidden to post here, and may read these words only under threat of the Thelemite Holy Vehm & Inquisition.
Maybe someone could oblige if I'm missing something, but I'm just sort of curious how the past page and a half of this thread (at least) has some sort of relation to the OT (i.e., "the man behind Amado Crowley")?
N Joy
You are aware that there are folks who treat AL exactly the way Xian fundies treat the Bible?
Yep.
I think Jesus was a Man before his Time. In fact, I think Jesus belongs to the Aeon of Ma'at.
And I think there is a neurosis in the knee-jerk condemnation of the "Osirian." Notice how no one emerges to condemn the "Isisian?"
Some of them post here when they dare (seldom), but mostly they belong to a certain Caliphornian organization (and its Associated .'. Affiliate .'.).
Who are forbidden to post here, and may read these words only under threat of the Thelemite Holy Vehm & Inquisition.
Ignant, I remember when you first joined Lashtal. I remember when there were LOTS of OTO members here. There were wonderful threads full of impassioned argument and dispute. I would, of course, engage on the "side" of the Typhonians. It was great fun, really. I recall when the SOTO jumped in and there were all sorts of great three-way battles.
Now it feels like there are less than a dozen who show up at the bar and carry the torch. We KNOW that OTO, Inc has been forbidden to come to Lashtal and engage. What irony. And what a sad and sorry testimony for an organization supposedly devoted to the promulgation of the Law of Thelema.
In the meantime, here's a toast to the Lashtalians present! Here's to Ignant, Shiva and Dom! Here's to Barbara and Horemaket and Michael Staley! Here's to Wellbred! Here's to Duck and here's to all those we quarrel with (Xon and Mal-and each other)!
We're a decent lot, I think.
Maybe someone could oblige if I'm missing something, but I'm just sort of curious how the past page and a half of this thread (at least) has some sort of relation to the OT (i.e., "the man behind Amado Crowley")?
N Joy
It's spiraling off but who cares....
I forgot to toast YOU, Jamie! Cheers!
We KNOW that OTO, Inc has been forbidden to come to Lashtal and engage.
I know, because I've seen it asserted here (and there here), and in all probability I suppose it's quite likely to be true, but I can't recall ever having seen any proof there is some sort of prohibitive order from on high to their members about this. Would it be possible to supply some actual evidence?
"PS" Cheers to you too Kyle, by the way!
Invisiblyishly yours,
N Joy
Would it be possible to supply some actual evidence?
I will appeal to our now very small circle to help me out. I had received a private communication re: someone name Keith Readdy and a book about "One Spirit, One Truth"....apparently, this person had written some footnote or passage condemning all known groups outside of the one and only OTO, Inc.
OTO, INC MEMBERS, I implore you! Please help clarify this issue!
At one time, OTO, Inc was on this site every night fighting TOTO in a copyright battle. They have since vanished. Narry a Knight to lift the Sword on behalf of the King. And yet-are we not the Home of the Aleister Crowley Society?!
Should I be proved wrong, I will humbly acknowledge my error! I would love it if OTO, Inc Members would join us here! We will, most certainly, have MUCH to ask of them!
I have made the same plea for the (c)OTOs to move therefore and show themselves, but with no result. And i also miss the days when they posted here, and am also appalled that they have been forbidden to do so.
Of course, i am even more appalled that folks who fancy themselves as "Thelemites" would obey such a dictum. And baffled at how/why folks inclined to obey would have an interest in Thelema. These damn kids these days, etc.
And as to Jamie's question as to what this thread now has to do with the OT: our new friend Barbara, an Xian, and and an ex-Amado disciple, and several of us have been just conversating a bit. She has lasted much longer here than any previous Xian poster that i can recall, and has refrained from apologetics/proselytizing, and has just been talking with us.
+++++++++++++++
Although, were one to slum over at the "New Fruitcake Factory" (aka reddit/Thelema), where they are very definitely allowed to post, and in fact run the joint, one might be inclined to wonder just how much the very obedient members of the (c)OTO, and its Associated .'. Affiliate .'., might be able to contribute to an intelligent discussion of the work and legacy of AC, Thelema, or indeed much else.
And we can bear in mind that Barbara has regarded SOME of her contacts here as “friends.”
THIS is a wonderful thing. It's easy to jump onto any online forum and draw a sword. It's another thing to express oneself as authentically as possible and look to make a genuine connection with other humans swimming in the same soup.
We are so small a group now that I am not worried about “going off topic.” If need be, I would be happy to see a new thread re: Christianity and Thelema. Either way, I find this particular topic to be of great personal interest. I'm a simultaneous fan of both AC and JC. I regard rigid Aeonic Demarcations as a Dogmatism appealing to fundamentalist psychology.
Shiva makes appeal to Bailey and the Seven Rays School. This connects to the Model of Circuits. I am quite fond of this and, in fact, finalizing a Tarot based on this Super Structure.
THIS, I regard, as a continuance of the Legacy of Crowley. Crowley was a wise man, despite his follies. He was a dysfunctional and fucked up guy....but I still regard many of his works as manifestations of the Super-Consciousness.
This should also give us encouragement...no matter how much we may seem to be “fucked up” (which is how Philip Dick described being in a State of “Sin”), we ARE “Stars” and unique beacons of the Divine Light.
Notice how no one emerges to condemn the "Isisian?"
I have made confessions about my Holy Guru, The Grand Master of the Many Days herself, who was all for an Isis brigade, with her being the Isis-Mama-Boss person. This worked out rather well during the early Isis stage. But when the Establishment (Osiris) came after her, she became brittle and hard, eventually leading to actions that are easily re-cognized as the work of a Black Sister. It became bad and then got worse. I have told this tale under many banners, even here. Bitchy, elderly ladies are fine examples of this "Kranky-Isis Syndrome. I have known younger gals who fell into the same rut.
On the other hand, my second teacher actually had the name Isis legally inserted between her first and last names. She lived up to the proper standard, for decades.
There are even further insights on both these, et al, in Hot Zones of ... coming soon.
an organization supposedly devoted to the promulgation of the Law of Thelema.
Um, look, I have good, real experience in the OTO, now retroactively abrogated due to clandestine activities (we had verbal orders to "Go!," a pile of secret docs up to the IX*, and a talisman from Crowley to Wolfe to Aquarius, to us. But we had no Written Charter signed by the G.'.M.'. BafomethR (who was dead). Thus we fell under the thing that you are describing.
It is called "The Them versus Us Imperative." It is very Horus-Setian. There are actually people here who might criticize or downplay some act or word of the Org, and the fill/kill debate was probably the critical breaking point. I know all about the Them vs Us. It was not paranoia. We had things "they" (The Establishment) wanted. We had no opportunity to get along with other Thelemites, because there were none. There were imposter Thelemites, but at our initiations we were taught to be cautious. Them vs Us vs Them. See Ch 3, AL. Go on, go on, in my strength. Heck, you have to have some dharana to get across The Burning Ground.
Anyway, to finish up my self-imposed second paragraph (but you bring up such interesting topics), do you know who I get random inquiry emails from? Members of the Oriental Templar Org who are ill at ease with their circumstances. Because of my reputation in Oriental Temporal matters, and my big mouth (or active keyboard), they ask me to explain certain "whys," and I entertain them with "becauses," and I usually reassure them that something is rotten in Norway (was it?).
Summary: We are the over-blown scum of LAShTAL, a sacred name stolen by a Moderator who lets people speak up ... with only minimal, reasonable rules. If only LAShTAL had been properly trademarked (TM), the fit would be hitting the Shan.
I've often criticized the Isisian Aeon as a simple obsolete period because that's what it was. I don't have disdain I just call out nomadic wandering with only stone tools at one's disposal as being a springboard for better things. Likewise I don't have disdain for my childhood when I thrilled at lighting fires and used stone tools in the wild in my gang.
The parable of the talents what's all that about? Don't bury your talents with asceticism?
My main critique of Jesus is that he gave no instructions in the work other than say that particular prayer daily. Crowley on the other hand produced a concise library full of instructions.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I get it now. I am a “star” because I am a unique beacon of the Divine Light. I am a child of the Living God! Though my path is different, we are all pressing upward toward the light. Hallelujah! Thank you @kidneyhawk for just the right words to get me to see this. Mostly I don’t understand what you folks are saying, but I understand that we are all stars, including me.
Barbara
My main critique of Jesus is that he gave no instructions in the work other than say that particular prayer daily. Crowley on the other hand produced a concise library full of instructions.
Aha! I see you have discovered the difference between the 6th ray and the 7th.
I understand that we are all stars
"Every man & every woman is a star."
Sez so in one of the Thelemic Holy Books.
Shiva makes appeal to Bailey and the Seven Rays School. This connects to the Model of Circuits. I am quite fond of this and, in fact, finalizing a Tarot based on this Super Structure.
Rays? What is that about?
What do you make of Crowley's critique of Christ? Christ seemed to give no scientific instructions other than a) submit to his status as YHVH Jnr and as the only way to 'salvation' and b) repeat the Our Father prayer daily.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
blogging is Choronzon
memorandum circulating discouraging discussions on social media mentioned in
One Truth One Spirit pg 280
All i m looking for is more gossip on the woman that slept with Adam before Eve.
And more on
the one that shifted,
and gave the fruit
of vision
that looketh;
thou art.
It's been said that the figure Jesus was an occultist in the tradition that became known as The Cabbalah. "On Earth as it is in Heaven" is a Hermetic principle. "Thy Kingdom come" refers to Malkuth (Kingdom) which 'earths' astral machinations at the base of The Tree of Life;
.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Well then, lets hear more on
the yod-he-vau-shin-ayin; and
the occult body brought into being by BapometR,
set forth in the passage of the magical path.
And the concealed aspect of Nachash the Shiny One,
and the initiation of the liberation of the child.
memorandum circulating discouraging discussions on social media mentioned in
One Truth One Spirit pg 280
It would be too much to ask for, of course, for you to type out the relevant couple of sentences in order that we would all have some sort of an idea exactly what verbotenism it is you're referring to, tiger? For all those (including myself) unlucky - or perhaps lucky - enough not to have purchased the relevant volume for ourselves...
N Joy
I get it now. I am a “star” because I am a unique beacon of the Divine Light. I am a child of the Living God! Though my path is different, we are all pressing upward toward the light. Hallelujah! Thank you @kidneyhawk for just the right words to get me to see this. Mostly I don’t understand what you folks are saying, but I understand that we are all stars, including me.
But stars without any trace of (original) sin, guilt or grace - it should naturally go without saying...
N Joy
All i m looking for is more gossip on the woman that slept with Adam before Eve.
Have you read Liber Lilith? Quite good.
Don't forget poor ol' Tiger an' me.
I been lurkin'
Enjoying your Hoodoo book btw,
I have made the same plea for the (c)OTOs to move therefore and show themselves, but with no result. And i also miss the days when they posted here, and am also appalled that they have been forbidden to do so.
If that is true that they are forbidden to read/post here that is certainly not very Thelemic! Perhaps that is an Amendment to Liber Oz: Man and woman have the right to read and post what and where they Wilt.
Thanks for the recco RE Ken's guide to the Bible. I was looking for something like that, or a novelisation of the book. Which would be fairly huge I would imagine.
a novelisation of the book
The closest thing to that might be R. Crumb's monumental version of Genesis:
https://www.crumbproducts.com/The-Illustrated-Book-of-Genesis-hardcover_p_324.html
Rays? What is that about?
I have only been posting comments, docs, and videos on the Science of the Seven rays, here on LAShTAL, for a few years.
If that is true that they are forbidden to read/post here that is certainly not very Thelemic!
From Day One, the Great BofometR said the Swiss Tong was to be the physical vehicle for the promulgation of Thelems. But even in that first degree, one is counseled about the restrictions that would be placed upon the initiate (the "tent pole" speech), and how they would lead to illumination, or Will, or something good.
Don't you (anyone) get it? They are The Tong. Have you ever heard of Absolute Dictatorship? Read The Constitution of 1917. Not now, I have it coming, with subtle commentary, in Hot Zones ...
Man and woman have the right to read and post what and where they Wilt.
This is theoretical idealism. 6th ray stuff. Devotion. If one wavers just a tad from political correctness on the Wild world web, they will instantly be accused of racism, hate crimes, blasphemy, sedition, and the other cultural 4th circuit sins. They may go to jail. In The Tong, you will do whatever the boss says, or you will never see the next higher degree. Chris, remember the Army? I do. The Tong is a metaphysical Army, but you don't get paid. Members are expected to pay all dues and fees in advance ... and to follow the Orders issued from the military temple.
Also, as dom mentioned, they do not have a training program. You know, like in any 6th ray org. Devotion! You need to join The One True A.'.A.'. Order to get to the 7th ray, supervised, curriculum of how to do it. Or ... one can just read The Libers and forget the dues. There is usually a fee associated with any Liber, unless you have a working computer and an internet connection.
Internet minutes fees may apply, depending on your IP (Ipsissimus).
What do you make of Crowley's critique of Christ? Christ seemed to give no scientific instructions other than a) submit to his status as YHVH Jnr and as the only way to 'salvation' and b) repeat the Our Father prayer daily.
If you take a look at the gospels there are innumerable occasions when Christ offers instruction to his disciples. Certainly too many to cite each one in a small post like this. Unlike Crowley he tended to be more opportunistic in his teaching methods, using situations as they arose to demonstrate certain principles, and certainly not 'scientific' (but then neither was Crowley really, but that's another topic), which is to my mind suitable enough, considering that he was teaching 1st century peasants around the sea of Galilee, not the middle classes of 20th century Europe.
To summarise however, he was quite terse to a certain Lawyer who sought to bamboozle him (Luke 10:27) "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself". Which is clearly a form of Bhakti yoga, although if you ask me that last point about loving thy neighbour brings the whole thing far beyond a simple devotion to a God to a whole other outlook on life and on other people. But as before, he demonstrated this in his teachings and proclivity for healing people and feeding the poor.
Don't forget poor ol' Tiger an' me
Cheers to you both! 🙂 Although I think Tiger is better prefaced with "Burning bright in the forests of the night!"
using situations as they arose
Yeah. Wu-wei.
clearly a form of Bhakti yoga
Yeah. 6th ray. Devotion. Abstract Idealism.
a whole other outlook on life and on other people.
Yeah. Samadhi.
.
What do you make of Crowley's critique of Christ? Christ seemed to give no scientific instructions other than a) submit to his status as YHVH Jnr and as the only way to 'salvation' and b) repeat the Our Father prayer daily.
If you take a look at the gospels there are innumerable occasions when Christ offers instruction to his disciples. Certainly too many to cite each one in a small post like this. Unlike Crowley he tended to be more opportunistic in his teaching methods, using situations as they arose to demonstrate certain principles, and certainly not 'scientific' (but then neither was Crowley really, but that's another topic), which is to my mind suitable enough, considering that he was teaching 1st century peasants around the sea of Galilee, not the middle classes of 20th century Europe.
Bhakti yoga yes good point. Maybe we should do a new thread;
https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/christianity-and-thelema/
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
And we can bear in mind that Barbara has regarded SOME of her contacts here as “friends.”
THIS is a wonderful thing. It's easy to jump onto any online forum and draw a sword. It's another thing to express oneself as authentically as possible and look to make a genuine connection with other humans swimming in the same soup.
We are so small a group now that I am not worried about “going off topic.” If need be, I would be happy to see a new thread re: Christianity and Thelema.
Good idea;
https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/christianity-and-thelema/
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
@christibrany
Wow
Thanks !
I hear that's the fastest growing Grimoire in the underground.
In another rumor I heard she refused to lie under Adam.
@jamiejbarter
Hope This Works
Hope This Works
Thank you for that, tiger. This provides something to go on -
It is known to the author that a memorandum has been circulated in the Outer College of the A.'. A.'. discouraging any such engagement in discussions on social media, and that policies for social media are being considered at certain administrative levels of the O.T.O..
However it is still really hearsay on the next level up, though: ideally now, the next best thing would be for somebody to be able to have sight of & relay the actual "memorandum" which was circulated, together with any further information regarding the "policies" which are under consideration (but not apparently yet in effect?) by the Caliphornian OTO itself.
N Joy
not apparently yet in effect?
The Readdy book is two years old at this point. No one admitting to (c)OTO membership has posted here in years, whereas at least half the regular posters here when i joined were (c)OTOs.
So perhaps the Caliphornians are faster at promulgating speech/thought restrictions than they are at "publishing Crowley books", implementing the little-known "Liber OZ footnote"?
Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will*---------------------
* Except when We say otherwise.
The "no social media" rule clearly does not apply to the Thelema reddit which is run by, and features daily posts by, self-identified (c)OTOs. I believe they are also active on the Book Of Faces (which i have no contact with).
And, given the exceptions to the "no social media" rule for the reddit group they control, and possible similar Facebook groups (and the Thelemic Union site, which has many posts by (c)OTOs), we should be clear that this is actually a "No posting on/reading Lashtal" rule.
Maybe when it was promulgated 2 years ago, it also included "No posting on/reading Heruraha [aka the "Fruitcake Factory" (credit where due, this was S.'. H.'. Fra. Dr. Los P (PhD 8=3's best joke)]", which was still active then.
But, other than the (c)OTO-controlled exceptions to the "no social media" rule, and us, what else is there? This is a rule to prevent their members' delicate, shell-like ears, and tiny minds, being confused by the thoughts of us heretics/Thelemic Protestants.
kidneyhawk: "In the meantime, here's a toast to the Lashtalians present! Here's to Ignant, Shiva and Dom! Here's to Barbara and Horemaket and Michael Staley! Here's to Wellbred! Here's to Duck and here's to all those we quarrel with (Xon and Mal-and each other)! "
Thanks, a toast in return from me to you kidneyhawk, and to all the regulars (both direct participants and lurkers)."
ignant666: "Since you seem unaware of YHVH's great obsession with prohibiting men from seeing their father's penises, i will did out those quotes tomorrow."
Will you please provide those quotes?
Check the paragraph after the one you quote for a longish quote from Genesis re the evils of seeing one's father's penis. This charming little anecdote is also the main Biblical "justification" for human slavery- it was OK, and indeed God-approved, to enslave Black humans, because Ham saw Noah's penis when Noah passed out drunk.
i would think a man as familiar with Xian apologetics as you would have no problem finding the other times this pops up, all OT as far as i can recall.
does anyone know who the OP was of this?
Amado Crowley was known as Mike to students and friends as his real name was Michael Paul Finbar Walker. His communication address in 2000, was Dr. M P Walker, 16 Charlotte Street, Brighton, BN2 1AG. He died in hospital in Burgundy, France on the morning of 6th February 2010. His body was brought back to England and the funeral took place on the morning of the 19th February 2010 at the Woodland Burial Ground, Bear Road Cemetry in Brighton. Michael Walker was buried next to his mother. Details can be verified by contacing the cemetery.
On the 15th September 1962 the marriage took place between Michael Paul Finbar Walker and Lillian Shu Chao Pang at the Registry Office, Huddersfield. Michael states on the marriage certificate that he was formerly known as Vernon Leslie Walker, is 31 years old, is a University medical research worker and resides at 63, Swan Lane, Lockwood, Huddersfield. His father's name is Leslie Walker. The rank or profession box has no details entered, so he could be retired. Lillian Pang states that she is 35 years old, is a Pathologist BSc MD PhD and resides at 9, Chatsworth Road, London NW2. Her father's name is Chi Ta Pang, a medical practitioner. Several of her works can be downloaded from the internet. As of 2012, she is still listed in the London telephone directory.
On the 13th February 1931, Vernon Leslie Walker was born at the Huddersfield Municipal Maternity Home. His mother was Edna Walker (nee Steele) and his father was Leslie Walker a Railway Platelayer. The address given is 7, Bridge Street, Lockwood, Huddersfield.
On the 4th October 1930 the marriage took place in the parish church, Lockwood, Huddersfield between Leslie Walker aged 25, a Platelayer of 19, Lower Well house, Golcar, Huddersfield and Edna Steele aged 21, of 7 Bridges Street, Huddersfield. Leslie's father is John Walker, a mason's labourer and Edna's father is George Steele, a miner.
On the 3rd November 1935, Edna Walker gave birth to a daughter named Rita Ann. The father was Leslie Walker, a platelayer and the address given is 16, Back Bradford Road, Huddersfield. Rita Ann died in the December quarter of 1936.
The claim made by Amado in his writings is that he is the biological son of Aleister Crowley. In his book The Secrets of Aleister Crowley, he explains that Aleister Crowley went to great lengths in order to have sexual relations with Amado's mother (Stella in the story) and is even supposed to have planned not only the exact location where the conception would occur but even the 'polarity' (orientation?) of the bed. The conception occurred in a room in a chateau near to Boulogne during the first night of a 'naughty weekend' that had been planned and paid for by Len Standish; the boyfriend of Stella. A taxi came for Stella and drove her on a short journey through the night to a champagne party in a chateau. While she was in the clutches of the 'Great Beast', Len was befriended at a bar by an Englishman who explained that he had just had some luck at a casino and was going to 'paint the town red'. He invited Len to join him and even started Len off with a modest stake and in the space of five hours, Len had won four hundred pounds. When Stella awoke in the modest hotel in Boulogne, she wondered if it had all been a dream. She realised that she would have to make it up to her husband Len and salvage their naughty weekend.
Len was shocked when Stella told him that she was pregnant just a few weeks after the weekend in France. They were married two months later in a registry office. Len couldn't work out how he was responsible; but knew that Stella hadn't been out with another man. This implies that Len didn't have sex with his girlfriend/fiancée during weekend away. This must have made him annoyed as he had spent a small fortune on the event and didn't even get to enjoy a naughty weekend.
The pair moved into a small rented house and Andrew Standish (Amado) was born on the 26th January 1930. A huge toy rabbit was delivered for the new baby (from Aleister) and Stella explained that it was from the baby's grandad Wilfred who was a coalminer living in Kent. Stella's mother quickly corrected her, stating that his grandad's name was George. Everyone thought the baby looked more like his mother than his father.There are several problems with this story. Aleister tells Stella at the start of the ferry journey to Boulogne that a car will arrive at the hotel at 9'oclock that same night. The journey across the channel takes about two hours so in order for Stella and Len to make the crossing, disembark, collect their luggage, get to the hotel, check in and sort themselves out, they must have left Folkestone no later than 5 pm. This means that they would have had to leave their home in Yorkshire about 9.30 am. as the train journey would have taken at least five and a half hours in 1929. The working day was until at least 6 pm. and they would both have had to somehow arrange to have the Friday and the Saturday off work as people worked a six-day week in 1929 with the lucky ones working a five and a half day week. They would have had to forgo their wages; and in 1929 every single farthing counted! So it is highly unlikely that Len and Stella could have had a naughty weekend in Boulogne as they each would have to have had two days off work in order to accomplish the weekend away and lose two days pay.
Why would a total stranger befriend Len and give him a stake? Are we to suppose that Aleister arranged this as well? Four hundred pounds was definitely a small fortune, it was the equivalent three and a half year's wages for Len! Len, Stella and family didn't move into better accommodation and there is no mention of how the money was spent.The conservative estimate of the costs of a weekend away in 1929 is £25 12s (twenty five pounds and twelve shillings).
A railway worker's wage was around £3 3s per working week, so this would use up about eight weeks worth of pay.
Putting aside 10 shillings per month it would take over five years.
Putting away £1 per month would take over two years.
Putting away £3 per month would take just over eight months.
Len would not be able to go on the spur of the moment; the weekend would take a lot of time to plan. Len was working in a very lowly job. He wouldn't have much education as he probably left school when 14 years old. Railway workers had to work a 12 hour day (6am. to 6pm.) and for 6 days a week.There are other problems/inconsistencies. On pages 141 - 143 of The Riddles of Aleister Crowley, Amado explains how he had an operation to correct an undescended testicle whilst doing his national service. He goes on to say that the man (Bernie Tocker)in the bed next to him is also in for the same operation, shares the same birthday, was also both born at four o'clock in the afternoon and that Bernie's late father was a magician; albeit a stage magician. Yet on page 21 Aleister is claimed to have said to Amado that the undescended testicle was put right he was five years old. Which is the truth? On page 33 of The Secrets of Aleister Crowley, Amado states that he was born on the 26th January 1930. Which is correct, 26th January or 13th February?.
Michael Walker (formerly Vernon Leslie) was born on Friday 13th February 1931. On page 237 of The History of British Magick After Crowley, by Dave Evans, the last day that Aleister Crowley was in France was (Tuesday) 16th Aril 1929. If Aleister Crowley did meet up with Michael Walker's mother it would have had to have been Friday 12th April as the alleged 'naughty weekend' would have been Saturday 13th and Sunday 14th April. If the pregnancy was a normal 38 weeks duration, the birth would have occurred around the 3rd January 1930 (Friday) and not over three weeks later on the 26th January 1930 (Sunday) as stated in the book The Secrets of Aleister Crowley. As already shown above, Vernon Leslie Walker was born on Friday 13th February 1931, so the pregnancy would have lasted over 21 months! He wasn't the biological son of Aleister Crowley.
Birth and Marriage records can be obtained from the General Register Office, PO Box 2, Southport, Merseyside, PR8 2JD, United Kingdom.
Marriage between Michael Paul Finbar Walker and Lillian Shu Chao Pang: Year 1962. Quarter: SEP. Volume: 0213. Page:155S.
Birth of Vernon Leslie Walker: Year 1931. Quarter: MAR. Volume: 09a. Page: 418.
Marriage of Leslie Walker and Edna Steele: Year 1930. Quarter: DEC. Volume: 09a. Page 619.
Birth of Rita Ann Walker: Year 1935. Quarter DEC. Volume: 9B. Page: 376.The death certificate can be obtained by contacting the French Embassy in London.
Amado was not the son of Aleister Crowley, he was a self-proclaimed 'Master' who set up several 'Occult Communes' between 1962 and 2003. Amado had always wanted to have a rural occult commune that would be the basis of an occult 'University'. The grand plan was to have several communes that were under the auspices of the one in Derbyshire. In 2003 Amado announced that he was founding a new occult order and members who signed up could expect formal training in the theory and practice of magic as well as a manual of rituals. This was quickly followed by the launch of the occult 'University'. Residential study courses became available for students and prospective students, but in 2008, the whole project collapsed when the bulk of students decide to leave (a pattern that had been played out in previous communes). The occult order was never mentioned again and both the training and the manual never materialised. In 2009 Amado decided to go and live in the one remaining commune in Burgundy, France.
In 1973 Amado produced 'The Magus'. A privately published booklet that explained Aleister Crowley's reputation, beliefs and teachings. A first edition copy is currently for sale on Amazon for £135 and is being sold by David Ford Books. He also has a copy of volume 7 of Liber Lucis and this is also for sale on Amazon for £95. In 1975 Amado produced Liber Alba, a list of questions asked by would be occult students. He claimed that he wasn't allowed to advertise, yet he had a long-running advert in The Fellowship of the Sphinx, an online contacts service. He wasn't 'The Chalice 777', he didn't usher in the 'Aeon of Horus', and he didn't publish the 'Book of Desolation'; which was a fabrication of his own wild imagination. He would have probably fared better if he had told the truth about himself.
Carpe Vita
The initial post was by someone with the forum name "Mal"; i don't think they ever posted again after the OP.
See this post, where Paul thanks him by name.
The initial post was by someone with the forum name "Mal"; i don't think they ever posted again after the OP.
See this post, where Paul thanks him by name.
ah thanks for that ignant
bit suspicious. Trying to research Amado for a video and i have three different names for the guy.
going back to the OP, why would someone sign up, post a huge info dump on him and then just vanish? A jilted ex member? Intentional disinfo? It’s very suspicious, but intriguing nonetheless.
I’ve unearthed a load of info about Amado, some stuff that I find a bit disturbing but need to verify still. It seems regardless of his claims, he did actually create a system of his own, and did appear to help a load of ‘wayward’ people.
Carpe Vita
[W]hy would someone sign up, post a huge info dump on him and then just vanish? A jilted ex member? Intentional disinfo? It’s very suspicious, but intriguing nonetheless.
I don't recall any of the ex-disciples who responded to the thread challenging any of OP's facts, but i could be mistaken.
I’ve unearthed a load of info about Amado, some stuff that I find a bit disturbing but need to verify still. I
Have you or anyone else ever gotten in contact with Jason Brett Serle, the only other person said to have seen the Book of Desolation?
What an interesting and entertaining thread this was. Most of it came at a time when I was out of the game a little and I only ollowed it in its beginnings 10 years ago. It also got me thinking: quite a few ex-Amado "followers" were engaging here for the first time. Why? Were they silent AC Society followers who needed to come out of the closet when Amado was mentioned? Confirming by this that the Crowley heritage claim of Amado was important to them? Or did they have an "Amado mention" alarm, which is also quite curious? I am also missing some of the regulars, dom, jamiebarter and so on. Three hours of reading well spent.
@the_real_simon_iff What was the point of resurrecting this thread anyway? Have you all run out of new ideas? Is the LAShTAL well dried-up?
@the_real_simon_iff What was the point of resurrecting this thread anyway? Have you all run out of new ideas? Is the LAShTAL well dried-up?
You should take better care. @sittingnow has resurrected it since he is working on an Amado video and is looking for more info. Seems like a perfectly adequate reason to resurrect a thread. Since I missed much of this thread at its time I reread it (took a while), found it interesting and did let everybody know I do so. It also isn't necessary to come up with new ideas here. Old ideas can be discussed too. And since you are part of the "Lashtal well", have you dried up?
someone with the forum name "Mal";
Which was the long-time name of a poster here, who then changed his name to Xon, and then to a series of emojis, shortly before going completely psycho, in (by far) the worst decompensation-meltdown ever seen on lasthal, and getting hisself banned.
As those who have been around for a while will recall, he cursed me to be possessed by a character in the Wizard of Oz book series. Actually, to be precise, his curse caused my head, and not the rest of me, to be possessed by that character. Very troublesome, of course.
But Paul's "[j]ust one post here so far - but what a post!" comment seems to indicate that this thread's OP is this person's first/only post on lashtal, so it couldn't be that Mal. Probably.
As those who have been around for a while will recall, he cursed me to be possessed by a character in the Wizard of Oz book series. Actually, to be precise, his curse caused my head, and not the rest of me, to be possessed by that character. Very troublesome, of course.
That was absolutely fascinating. . .
Then he at one time alluded that he didn't just 'predict' a comet, he manifested it, or something....
As for Amado, I recall a female member that posted about being his 'disciple,' maybe it is earlier on this thread.
Men-an-tol in Cornwall, as the myth goes, is where AC did some ritual to give birth to his 'son' Amado, at least per Amado's books and Peter Moon's as well.
See: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/crowley-clippings/a-stone-with-a-hole/
@the_real_simon_iff I'm glad you found it interesting. I was not aware that a video was being researched. So yes digging from the archives is certainly appropriate. We all know that putting my foot in my mouth is one of my more endearing qualities. Keeps me humble. If anyone is interested, I acquired for $45.00 a fairly rare book by Gerald Suster, Hitler: The Occult Messiah. (Yes, it includes Crowley and Liber al vel Ligis) I'd love to discuss it, but I know the subject leaves a bad taste in most people's mouths.