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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 3:16 pm  

I've found sources (which the veracity I cannot assure 100%) alleging that the use of Qlippoth in magic (paganism) predates the known use of the Sephiroth. The same "sources" say Qlippoth's use was first registered in Babylon and that they have Sumerian origin. Also, each one of the ten Qlippoth would be represented by a Sumerian (or Babylonian) God.

I usually don't give credit to sources like this, without reliable beddings, but as I use to work with Goetia, I took the same reasoning above mentioned and aplied it to the work of MacGregor Mathers. If we use a skeptic/sociological method of analysis, we'll realize that the goetic Bael is related to the God Baal, Astaroth is plural for Astart (Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, Inanna), Adramelech is a sun god from Sepharvaim (Assyria), and thus follows... what makes the so called "Demons" to be actually Gods pertaining to pantheons of Hebrew's antagonistic civilizations (Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc...).

Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?

Zagreus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 3:59 pm  

Zagreus you seem to be putting the goetia in the same category has the Qlippoth. There hasnt been any work or study put into proving or correlating a relation between them. Although there is correlation between the goetia names and certain deitites that is a separate issue/system from the Qlippoth.

Have you come across any material that makes this claim? I would be interested to here more about it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 4:13 pm  

Thank you for replying me, Russel.

Well, actually I didn't come across something that claims it. I mean, I put all toghether, trying to draw a conclusion.
I know Qlippoth and Goetia aren't systematically related. What I put in the same plane is that both of them came to us through the Hebrew sources, and what I tried to point is that maybe the two of them (the systems) were not created by the Hebrews, but adopted by them.

Also, the Qlippoth are characterized as being "imbalances" between the Sephiroth, thus "Demons".

Sorry if I don't make myself clear easily. English is not my mother language.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 5:33 pm  
"zagreus" wrote:
I've found sources (which the veracity I cannot assure 100%) alleging that the use of Qlippoth in magic (paganism) predates the known use of the Sephiroth. The same "sources" say Qlippoth's use was first registered in Babylon and that they have Sumerian origin. Also, each one of the ten Qlippoth would be represented by a Sumerian (or Babylonian) God.

I usually don't give credit to sources like this, without reliable beddings, but as I use to work with Goetia, I took the same reasoning above mentioned and aplied it to the work of MacGregor Mathers. If we use a skeptic/sociological method of analysis, we'll realize that the goetic Bael is related to the God Baal, Astaroth is plural for Astart (Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, Inanna), Adramelech is a sun god from Sepharvaim (Assyria), and thus follows... what makes the so called "Demons" to be actually Gods pertaining to pantheons of Hebrew's antagonistic civilizations (Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc...).

Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?

Zagreus

Very interesting - is it possible that, instead of these Qliphoth actually being related to those more ancietn Gods and Goetia, that instead the Hebrew Rabbis named their 'shells' of evil after the different gods that were in competition with their system? Identifying foreign gods with your own evil is a common practice (at least in Xtianity).

The actal idea of the Qliphoth is much different from both the Goetia and the ancient gods (which would more likely be the Sephiroth). The Qliphoth implies something naturally without any coherency/balance - convoluted shells cast off in the production line. The gods have by definition a certain amount of 'unity' in that they are related to the Sephiroth. As for the Goetia, I believe demons and Qliphoth are two things - the Qliphoth are much more universal and macrocosmic in a lot of cases whereas demons are much more specific in function (it seems). Nothing definitive - I just wanted to make a few comments.

210 & 65,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 5:45 pm  

Thanks, Aum. I liked your explanation.

You mean, while Qlippoth are "Universal Devices", Demons are conscientious, half independent beings, right? I think I got it.

Zagreus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 5:48 pm  
"zagreus" wrote:
Thanks, Aum. I liked your explanation.

You mean, while Qlippoth are "Universal Devices", Demons are conscientious, half independent beings, right?

Sort of I guess - Qlipphoth could easily be considered 'demons' in that htey are usually averse and not too happy to be met. Demons have a sort of autonomous and somewhat coherent existence that seems to be on a different level than the Qlipphoth, so yes, I think youve got it about right. Either way, I am making no final judgments - I think it is silly to do such especially about such nebulous idea/entities as these.

210 & 65,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 5:58 pm  

However, it is usual to attribute a Demon ruler to a given qelippah, as Asmodeus, Astaroth, Baal or Belphegor, isn't it?
That was the association that made me to do the link between the systems, because most of these rulers have the same name of some goetics. What do you think about this association?

Zagreus


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 6:04 pm  
"zagreus" wrote:
However, it is usual to attribute a Demon ruler to a given qelippah, as Asmodeus, Astaroth, Baal or Belphegor, isn't it?
That was the association that made me to do the link between the systems, because most of these rulers have the same name of some goetics. What do you think about this association?

Zagreus

I think, like I said, that Qlipphoth could be considered 'demons' as well. Goetia are, perhaps, a specific set that were contacted by that person who wrote Legementon and such. I really do not know - just speculating, perhaps to give you some ideas.

65 & 210,
111-418


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/06/2007 6:05 pm  

Ok, Thank you again.
________________________________________

Anyone else can express anything about it?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/07/2007 8:07 pm  

I see the Qabalah as a system of explanations. Therefore, the belief systems that came before and after the conception of Qabalah are merely being illuminated upon by the study of Qabalah. Sumerian, Babylonian demons/gods and Goetic demonology are represented as Veils of Negativity and are one and the same.


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Proteus
(@proteus)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 243
23/07/2007 1:59 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The Qlippoth are considered the obverse complement of the Sephiroth (negative/infernal emanations). They came about as each Sephira was created in its turn. The unequilibrated force that existed as one Sephira overflowed into another from the Divine Source created/enabled each of the Qlippoth.

Now that the Sephiroth are developed, the negative energies of the Qlippoth continue to multiply and are assumed to operate independent of the Divine Source. It is impossible to contact the Angelic force associated with a Sephira without contacting its corresponding Qlipottic 'demon'. One can only learn to work effectively in such an environment - not avoid it. Goetic invocations account for this environment.

John

Love is the law, love under will.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
23/07/2007 9:59 am  

93,

I agree with Proteus' comments concerning the Qlippoth being related to the "Angelic" forces of the Sephiroth. I always had one thought of the main Qlippothic Entities being akin to the Archangels, while their servants more like the Angelic Choirs, etc. It can be broken down a few ways.

There are also the Elemental Kings, don't forget. In Traditional Hebrew there is Paralda, Nichsa, Djiin, and Ghob - for Air, Water, Fire, and Earth, respectively. Likewise, there are indeed demonic equivalents. It's been quite a while for me to remember these exactly, but I'm pretty sure Bael Asmodai, Beelzebub, and Belial fit into this category (Don't quote me, I am probably wrong, it's been years). At any rate, David Godwin has a nifty book entitled _Godwin's Cabalistic Encylopedia_ which is very helpful in this effort, and in relating the Demons to the Angels, mainly by Sign.

For a better instruction on the Qlippoth and more specifically "The Tunnels of Set", you can maybe get your hands on a copy of _The Shadow Tarot_ by Linda Falorio.

As for the Goetia... the Goetia itself is a collection of 72 Spirits which, traditionally, King Solomon placed into obedience and contained them within the Ark of the Covenant. This is very like the modern interpretation in which the Magickian, after Attaining the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, is to summon each of these Demons in turn, forcing them into obedience by the authority of his HGA, essentially "locking them" into his own "Ark". Another thing which comes to mind in dealing with these 72 spirits is the 72 fold name, or Shemhamephorash, the "Beard of God." For a more in-depth explanation of this, Mathers' _The Kabbalah Unveiled_ has been recently reprinted and is widely available.

Of course there is an even further consideration of one culture's gods being another culture's demons. As such, even something like the Necronomicon, with its Seven Gates, can be related to the lower seven Sephira which exist below the Abyss.

Happy hunting.

93 93/93,

Az


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/09/2007 1:41 am  

Thomas Karlsson, a prominent member of the Dragon Rouge (Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis) has written a wonderful book on the issue of Qliphoth and Goetia: "Qabala, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic." It was first released in swedish, then italian and german and now it seems The Ajna Offensive will be publishing it in the english version.

The book deals with the different classical qabalistic doctrines on the qliphoth, as for instance the qliphoth in relation to creation, the fall of Lucifer and Daäth, the problem of evil, Shekinah, Sophia and Lilith. One part of the book presents the way that the Dragon Rouge has worked with Goetia as a part of the Qliphotic intiation.

it also contains descriptions of the different qliphas, the qliphotic initiation, the sigils for the qliphas and artwork by members of the order and zeena schreck of the storm, some rituals for the lower qliphotic spheres and a pathworking for one of the qliphotic tunnels.


The tree of Knowledge (The Qliphoth)

Here is an outline of the Qliphotic Initiatory path:
1. Lilith 1.0°. The gate to the unknown.
———
2. Gamaliel 2.0°. The dark dreams. Astral magic. Witchcraft. The mysteries of the dark moon. The dark Goddess.
3. Samael 3.0°. The philosophy of the left hand path. The wisdom of insanity. Yezidi magic. The dark side of the Chakras.
4. A'arab Zaraq 4.0°. Luciferian magic. The dark side of Venus. Eroto-mysticism and the path of the warrior.
5. Thagirion. 5.0°. The illumination of the nightside. The black sun. The union of the god and the beast.
6. Golachab 6.0°. Ragnarök. The activation of Surt/Sorath. The magnetism of lust and suffering.
7. Gha'agsheblah 7.0°. The higher levels of eroto mysticism. Preparations for the abyss.
8. Satariel 8.0°. The opening of the eye os Lucifer/Shiva/Odin. The Drakon principle.
9. Ghagiel 9.0°. The lightening of the Luciferian star.
10. Thaumiel 10.0°. The accomplishment of the promise given by the serpent. Divinity.
———
11 Thaumiel 11.0°. The black hole. The step into the new creation. Universe B.

For more information on the Dragon Rouge:
http://www.dragonrouge.net


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/09/2007 5:16 pm  

A question, as I have no experience with the Qlippoth...

You mention, Tree of Knowledge - Is that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or something unrelated?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/09/2007 9:38 pm  
"Uni_Verse" wrote:
A question, as I have no experience with the Qlippoth...
You mention, Tree of Knowledge - Is that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or something unrelated?

Qliphoth = The Shells of the Dead = Tree of Knowledge = Tree of Death = Tree of Evil = The Tree in the North = Sitra Ahra

In occult qabala also called things like "The Tunnels of Set".

So, yes.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/09/2007 10:06 pm  

I don't know that much about Qliphothic tree, but Wiki says this much:

"In what may be the most widely-accepted teaching, they are the "[empty] husks" of "[holy] sparks" (nitzotzot) that were cast down after Adam and Eve defied God's command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden as told in the Book of Genesis."

I wonder how much modern magicians actually use the Qliphotic tree which seems like an an evil twin of Tree of Life. However, I don't really see it very applicable for me, because it seems that the Tree of Life can already contain the Qliphotic or evil ideas. Though I don't know, perhaps researching the Qliphotic tree would give some novel ideas..


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/09/2007 10:24 pm  
"anpi" wrote:
I don't know that much about Qliphothic tree, but Wiki says this much:

"In what may be the most widely-accepted teaching, they are the "[empty] husks" of "[holy] sparks" (nitzotzot) that were cast down after Adam and Eve defied God's command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden as told in the Book of Genesis."

I thought they were the 'left-overs' from creation, but I guess I might be wrong.

I wonder how much modern magicians actually use the Qliphotic tree which seems like an an evil twin of Tree of Life. However, I don't really see it very applicable for me, because it seems that the Tree of Life can already contain the Qliphotic or evil ideas. Though I don't know, perhaps researching the Qliphotic tree would give some novel ideas..

Its not a separate tree. Its usually placed a mirror image of the tree under malkuth.

65 & 210,
111-418


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Te23
 Te23
(@te23)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 23
13/09/2007 2:27 am  
"Aum418" wrote:
I thought they were the 'left-overs' from creation, but I guess I might be wrong.

Or maybe just asking the question that first interested magicians. What exactly are the Qlippoth?

93!
-Te23


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/09/2007 3:39 am  

Actually, classic qabalistic sources have different ideas on how the Qliphoth was created. Among the ideas are the following:

* The qliphoth is the result of either Geburah (Din) or Binah wreaking havoc (this is actually the usual idea).
The line of thought is as follows: Geburah (or sometimes Binah) which is the central sephirotic agent of division, the sword of God that separates. This is a highly destructive sefira that is balanced by the right side of the tree. Due to mankind eating of the fruits from the tree of Knowledge, the original world falls and thus the powers of Geburah becomes totally uncontrolled and highly destructive, Thomas Karlsson writes (please forget my own translation):
"When the original unity is broken, Geburah becomes an independent force that comes to dominate Malkuth and the world of men. The potentiall evil becomes actualised and becomes a radical evil power that inflicts pain... A part of God becomes an independent evil force due to the lack of obedience of man." Sa'el becomes -Samael- , the angel of Death.

* The qliphoth pre-dates creation, and sometimes actually is God in the most absolute way imaginable. Karlsson writes that just as "The kings of Edom pre-dates Israel and Kain is born before Abel, the darkness and Sitra Ahra (the other side) are seen in some interpretations as something original.", and quotes Rachel Elior: "The general origin of existences, then, was within darkness, in the Sitra Ahra, which ruled alone before the Creation.
Another version is how the dark light of Ain Sof known as the she-ein bo mahshavah (the light without thought)! Karlsson quotes Scholem: "What is called the power of evil, the kelippah, is the last resort rooted in the noncreative light in God himself... In fact, the thoughtless lights, too, build structures of their own - the demonic worlds of the kelippot whose sole intent is to destroy what the houghtful light has wrought. These forces are called the "serpents dwelling in the great abyss". The satanic power, called in the Zohar sitra ahra ("the other side"), are none other than the other side of Ein-Sof itself insofar as, by its very resistance, it became onvolved in the process of creation itself."

* The qliphoth pre-dates _this_ creation, and is dead parts of old creations that were left to wither as they did not please God. There are many different versions of this idea.

* In Lurias work the world God creates has a strange phenomenon; from the eyes of man there radiates a strange light that gives rise to "olam hanekudoth" (the world of punctual light) or "olam ha-tohu" (the world of confusion). Karlsson explains: "Different vessels are created to get this punctual light and give it's energy a form in the demarcated creation. The three vessels for the top sephirotic triad catches the light, but when the lights flows down to the six vessels below it happens too fast, so these vessels burst and falls together. The bottomn sefira is also damaged, but it is not destroyed. The shards falls down into the abyss and with them 288 sparks of divine light. The clean and holy is thereby blended with the unclean and unholy, which results in the rise of demonic antiworlds to the creation." This is viewed as both necessary in creation and a catastrophy.
Karlsson quotes Scholem: "As the seed must burst to grow and bear fruit, the first vessels must burst so that the divine light in them, the crop of the world, shall get to its mission.

* The qliphoth are middleworlds between man and God.

Talking on the issue if the Tree of Knowledge is a tree of its own might, it is probably pretty clear that this of course differs. It depends on what you mean with it and different ideas would have it different ways.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/09/2007 4:38 am  

I personally have always viewed the Qilpoth as the false tree of Da'ath

As it was the tree of "Good and Evil," dualities.

So it has a "false crown" as it sits below the first Sephira.

But as I said, I never worked with it. Have not even thought about it much either 😀


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/09/2007 12:13 pm  
"Uni_Verse" wrote:
I personally have always viewed the Qilpoth as the false tree of Da'ath

That is of course also true. Many sources explains how Daath (Lucifer) falls as a result of either man eating the fruits from the tree of Death, or getting to KNOW the angels of Lucifer. This is actually seen as a part of the other explanations of qliphoth.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/10/2007 2:25 pm  

Im very interested in the Qliphoth myself, waiting for my copy of "Qabala, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic".
To bad there isnt alot of information to find about it. seems like you almost have to derive your own system to work sufficiently with it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/10/2007 12:36 am  

There are loads and loads of information. That book is only a fragment of the vast documented information about the qliphoth within the group as presented by the author.
But sure, there is not much in print.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/10/2007 1:22 am  

The Dragon Rouge lodge looks very interesting.

Charles


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/10/2007 3:30 am  

Indeed, the Dragon Rouge does look interesting but perhaps too 'dark' for me...somewhat reminiscent of the T.O.T.O. at least in tone. But then again that's what I said about Grant and ended up purchasing his OOP books at this pretty cool place in the Village (nyc) for about 65bucks a pop (I'm still missing 5 of his works 🙁 ). So yea who knows... 😛

As for the Qlippoth, does anyone think they are to be found as 'high' up as Atziluth? Also I do think that the Qlippoth and Demons represent different strata of being, although as was said elsewhere many demons names are simply corruptions of Deities names so perhaps the whole idea of demons should be given another look when comparing to the Qlippoth.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/10/2007 7:57 am  

93

The Dragon Rouge seems a bit too dark for me as well. It just seems as if there is no BALANCE there.
________________________________

Come see for yourself what is beyond the gate.-Kisuke Urahara (Bleach)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/10/2007 12:42 am  
"Martialis" wrote:
As for the Qlippoth, does anyone think they are to be found as 'high' up as Atziluth? Also I do think that the Qlippoth and Demons represent different strata of being, although as was said elsewhere many demons names are simply corruptions of Deities names so perhaps the whole idea of demons should be given another look when comparing to the Qlippoth.

It depends on what we mean. This is a very tricky question. The best answer would probably be, "Yes, but.." this depends on what you mean with Atziluth. Within the qabalistic tradition, again, we see that the higher levels of the sephiroth is perceived in different ways.
From a thelemite-crowleyan perspective my best answer would be: "I don't know" since I not familiar with Crowley enough, and so I don't know how his views on this level differs from other systems.

What can be said though is that the Qliphoth and the systems of initiation connected to it also has it's levels connected to the void, behind the highest sephirah/qliphah.

Actually, this is not something that is differing from traditional qabalistic doctrine, but rather it harmonizes with parts of very traditional doctrines.

Also, it can be noted that the initiationsystem of the "Typhonian" OTO differs from the one of the Dragon Rouge in that they work with the sephiroth before working with qliphoth, while the Dragon Rouge works with both the qliphoth and the sephiroth simultaneously.

If one does not in some way feel drawn to working with the qliphoth and the left hand path, because one does not feel that working with powers that renders unbalance, then one is probably best off not approaching it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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12/10/2007 1:02 am  

When it comes to paths I don't really see left or right hand paths just what's useful and effective for me. Working with a Sephirah and its corresponding Qliphah in the manner in which you describe the Dragon Rouge work seems quite logical and perhaps a progressive step, but that depends on which interpretation one prefers.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/10/2007 6:42 am  

I see the Qlippoth in a very Samekh point of view (with use of Thisharb). A person remembered in your memory is not the actual person, its rather a "shell", a "demon" (with commands) veiled with the image (or shell) of a person, and must be handled as such. These shells are at the thresholds of the tunnels of the Qlippoth, which are actually the unilluminated tunnels of the memory. The shells seem to possess different classifications and commands but always use pain which they have locked one way or another in the memory to keep you from passing and illuminating the tunnels, or rather taking back control of your own mind. The qaballistic relevance seems obscure to me, I would only use it for the classification of demons, yet I suppose each to thier own.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
12/10/2007 12:42 pm  
"ROTHGATE" wrote:
I see the Qlippoth in a very Samekh point of view (with use of Thisharb). A person remembered in your memory is not the actual person, its rather a "shell", a "demon" (with commands) veiled with the image (or shell) of a person, and must be handled as such. These shells are at the thresholds of the tunnels of the Qlippoth, which are actually the unilluminated tunnels of the memory. [...]

93,

I like this explanation! Mind if I use it? 🙂

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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12/10/2007 3:22 pm  

I read it in the writings of my brother Spartacus, but yes use it as you will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/05/2008 9:43 pm  

Actually I regard Qlippoth (in contecst of personal advencement) as left-hand way to being god. Please look at this: . In my opinion we all start from Malkuth-the earth, whith is an ego as well. Inititations in right handed orders are based on sephiroth, and it leads to kether- Great White Light. Right handed orders are leading lower- into their ego- from Malkuth to Thaumiel. They are going to create sub-universe inside them and that will make them separate gods of their own world(kind of autism?;)). Thaumiel is Kether of universe B, and that would bring conclusion that we actually live in multiversum that looks like chain of binded trees;)

Sorry for my poor english- I'm doing my best, but I have still much to learn.

inc0


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wolfangel
(@wolfangel)
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Posts: 32
18/05/2008 2:31 am  

An explanation of Dr. Simo Parpola observations on the relationship between the Assyrian tree and the jewish can be found here, there appears to be some criticism of his ideas even thou he is a well known Assyriologist. Having read it there do seem to be a few leaps but then this is not my field of study.

http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevents/simolecture/lecture.html The Mesopotamian Soul of Western Culture Lecture By Dr. Simo Parpola
on November 1, 2000 at Harvard University. The original paper which i cannot get access to is on Jstor entitled - The Assyrian Tree of Life: Tracing the Origins of Jewish Monotheism and Greek Philosophy.

Obviously this has little to do with the qliphoth but it does shed some light on the initial posters question, i hope. Anybody whom could get a copy of the above Jstor article i would be very interested to read it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/05/2008 8:32 am  

93

Well, the usual confusion!

For a start, Daath is an old (pre-Zohar) term for Kether, Chokmah and Binah combined that was already in disuse by de Leon's time. When it was rediscovered in about the 16th century it was wrongly thought to be an eleventh sphere. Sorry guys, that's the way it is.

However, the abyss, as originally thought of when the 10 sephiroth was described as a river rather than a tree, is supposed to be full of energy pouring from Chokmah to Chesed and Binah to Geburah, so go there expecting a void and you'll likely find two columns of energy.

As for the Qlipoth being shells left over from creation, that depends whether you consider creation a one-off done deal or a constant process. Rabbis were often arguing this point. Qlippoth are seen either (by analogy) as sparks flying from the anvil of creation or as shells like egg-shells after birth has happened. Ordering them by whichever stage of the process they refer to makes sense, but doesn't create an equal and opposite tree, any more than you can make roast chicken from eggshells. Doesn't mean to say they are of no use, however.

As for Babylonian names appearing, heck, some of the Hebrew months are named after Babylonian gods. The Babylonian influence on Judaism (which arguably doesn't pre-date the Babylonian exile in any meaningful way) is far greater than often realised, there is nothing surprising about that, but it doesn't demonstrate a direct influence. Most of what we call Qabalah is no more than 800 years old - apart from Sefer Yetsirah, and that was originally just a list of the ten spheres, the 22 connections and astrological aspects were added later.

And those Orders proudly boasting they do things differently, good for you. But please don't mistake creativity for research, there's been enough of that in the last fifty years.

I recommend a thorough immersion in the works of Gershom Scholem,

93 93/93

Steve W


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/05/2008 4:45 pm  
"sethur666" wrote:
93

Well, the usual confusion!

For a start, Daath is an old (pre-Zohar) term for Kether, Chokmah and Binah combined that was already in disuse by de Leon's time. When it was rediscovered in about the 16th century it was wrongly thought to be an eleventh sphere. Sorry guys, that's the way it is.

However, the abyss, as originally thought of when the 10 sephiroth was described as a river rather than a tree, is supposed to be full of energy pouring from Chokmah to Chesed and Binah to Geburah, so go there expecting a void and you'll likely find two columns of energy.

Steve - can you provide a source for your claims about Daath? I know serious Kabbalists look down on AC's Qabala and 777, but the above statements, if true, would cast doubt on AC's claims about The Dweller in the Abyss, Crossing the Abyss to the City of Pyramids, etc.


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wolfangel
(@wolfangel)
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18/05/2008 8:48 pm  

I could speculate that there are at least three well established schools of Kabbalah - Jewish, Christian and Hermetic. Crowleys seems to fit quite snugly in the Hermetic camp, It also reflects the times he was living in (culturally) and the influences of other occultists upon him living or dead (as in there writings).

Much can be said the same about the traditional kabbalah as the poster above noted it changes due to the cultural influences that surround it, so for example the rediscovery of the merkabah literature in the medieval period effected kabbalah and its development to some degree, as did the travelling of the Jews into various parts of Europe and the cultures of the time. A person or people are not isolated from the cultural environment they are in.

The Hermetic Kabbalah seems to have a strong influence from Alchemy and the Grimoire traditions, this including the archaeology of the middle east/ Egypt seems to have also influenced Crowley quite strongly in his conceptions, as do his own personal experiences. In a similar way you can see the effects of popular culture on the ideas presented as identifiers for a modern audience to become accustomed to the ideas presented in kabbalah now. Folk Customs seem to play a large part in Kabbalistic theurgy. As they also do within the Grimoire traditions along with a mixture and confusion of many other influences.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2008 4:59 am  

I was once presented with the position that Malchuth was where Daath, now is. Malchuth descended into its current place, stepping down spiritual forces that would be superfluous to what a physical entity would need and in all possibility be destroyed by. This accounts for the presence of Yesod, Hod and Netzach, Tipharet, Geburrah and Chesed, Daath, Binah and Chokmah, with Keter the destination of all below, and the departure for all above.

I suspect Qliphoth are what we present in our physical form per each Qliphoth to its corresponding Sephiroth, to anyone looking at us. For example, the main attribute of the Sepheroth Netzach would be seen in a man by anyone looking, in the Qliphoth physical representative appearance corresponding to Netzach. But, I also think aliens in UFO's won't let us nuke each other to cinders.


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 Anonymous
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04/07/2008 2:37 pm  

IIIAAAMMM wrote:

"I suspect Qliphoth are what we present in our physical form per each Qliphoth to its corresponding Sephiroth"

Actually, this is one of the ways the qliphoth is interpreted. But to understand what that means, you have to understand what that part of the Qabalistic tradition means when they talk about the material. Lets remember that Qabalah is a long tradition where words and meaning are not static.
Also, as I just pointed out, this is only one of the ways the qliphoth is interpreted.

If you are seriously interested in qliphoth, I suggest you read Thomas Karlssons book Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic.


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 Anonymous
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04/07/2008 6:07 pm  

Hi rzk,

Yes, now there is a man (Mr. Karlsson) who has put some work into creating a fantastic book on the Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetia.

Keep up the Great Work Dragon Rouge.

My very best wishes

Charles


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gurugeorge
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04/07/2008 7:14 pm  
"zagreus" wrote:
I've found sources (which the veracity I cannot assure 100%) alleging that the use of Qlippoth in magic (paganism) predates the known use of the Sephiroth. The same "sources" say Qlippoth's use was first registered in Babylon and that they have Sumerian origin. Also, each one of the ten Qlippoth would be represented by a Sumerian (or Babylonian) God.

I usually don't give credit to sources like this, without reliable beddings, but as I use to work with Goetia, I took the same reasoning above mentioned and aplied it to the work of MacGregor Mathers. If we use a skeptic/sociological method of analysis, we'll realize that the goetic Bael is related to the God Baal, Astaroth is plural for Astart (Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, Inanna), Adramelech is a sun god from Sepharvaim (Assyria), and thus follows... what makes the so called "Demons" to be actually Gods pertaining to pantheons of Hebrew's antagonistic civilizations (Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc...).

Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?

Zagreus

I've seen scholarship that equates the Qliphoth with non-Jewish deities - basically all the deities of the tribes who lived in the same area as the Jews at a certain period. It's a way of the Jews thumbing their noses at all the other cults around them. So it's not as if they were used qua Qliphoth in those non-Jewish religions - they were their full-on, perfectly respectable deities.

But actually it may be a lot more intersting and complicated than even that. The idea we have of Judaism as a sort of monolithic, monotheistic religion is something that comes partly from the view of Judaism in the New Testament, but there are signs that this may be a rather skewed view of what it was actually like at the time (incidentally, this rather shows up the relative lateness and post-Diaspora nature of the NT). Scholarship by people like Margaret Barker (The Great Angel) and others is showing that Judaism may well have been looser and indeed more polytheistic roundabout 0CE and earlier.

This would point to the Qabalistic view of the Qliphoth being a late invention (medieval) that hearkens back to a presumed ideal Judaism vs. local polytheisms.

An interesting translation of Qliphoth that seems to make a lot of sense is that it means "bark" - bark/Tree. That would point to a more rounded, Thelemic way of looking at it I think, in which the Qliphoth aren't viewed with contempt as mere discarded husks, but rather understood as something that's a necessary part of life, a dead shell that encases the living Tree of Life and helps protect it.


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 Anonymous
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05/07/2008 12:04 am  

Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture.


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gurugeorge
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05/07/2008 12:00 pm  
"Dogstar" wrote:
Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture.

I think people should get the whole picture. I think a great way of easing people into the Tree of Life would be to point them to Alan Moore's amazing Prometheaseries of comics (now in graphic novel format). He goes through the whole shebang. It's slighly idiosyncratic but a good intro nevertheless for someone who's never encountered any of this stuff before. He sets the Qlipoth in the context of the whole picture.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
05/07/2008 12:52 pm  

gurugeorge:
Anyone could say “oh, but the qliphoth is just the material world/other nations/whatever”, and really push the reductionist button to the limit, but then anyone that knows anything about qabalah would realize what kind of arguments those are; true, but reductionist and in the sense of esoterism possibly missing the point.

The question of qliphoth needs to be adressed from many different perspectives, as an integral part of the non-static qabalistic system. We have to realize that the question of the look on the qliphoth, or evil will change depending on different theological choices of explanation, tradition, practical realities and things like this.
A crash course in this would be to take a look at Thomas Karlssons presentation of it, where the question of the qliphoth will get different (in a way) answers depending on the questions you ask and the answers you give:

    What is the relation of qliphoth or “evil” to gods plan?

    Positive evil
    Negative evil
    Necessary evil
    Non necessary evil
    Dualistic position to evil
    Monistic position to evil
    Evil as the material world
    Personal evil
    Unpersonal evil
    Complementary evil

    What is the root of evil?

    Ain Sof
    Binah
    Geburah (Din)
    Hod
    Malkuth

    How does evil act?

    Separation
    Intrusion
    The Other
    Multitude

If you would like to have the opinion “well, the qliphoth are just the other desert-peoples that were attacking the jewish people, what Thomas Karlsson talks about as “the evil and cursed nations: the amalekites who are called “the agressors”, the geburim who are called “the violent”, the raphaim who are called “the cowards”, the nephilim who are called “the lustful” and the anakim that are talked about as “the anarchists”.” .. well, then indeed you could and will find theological support for that, just as you would find support for ideas like “well, satan is just those arabs/the west/whatever”.

Understanding the qliphoth and it's relation to the rest of the rest of the qabalistic system is a great theoretical key that through practise will make the understanding of the sephirotic realms much deeper.


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 Anonymous
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05/07/2008 1:00 pm  

Dogstar:
Well it depends which occult system you are working in. If you are an initiate of the (T)OTO for instance, you would go through several sephirotic spheres up to Daath before begin working the qliphoth (if you are not for some reason using the hidden and secret passageway to the qliphoth that Grant talks about in quite open words). If you are an initiate in the Dragon Rouge, where you begin working with the qliphothic spheres almost directly, it is a good idea to at least get some kind of theoretical information about it. The passageway that Grant talks about is taught in the very beginning of the initiation in the Dragon Rouge.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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05/07/2008 1:13 pm  

zagreus wrote:
Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?

Well, for starters the word Tiamat is etymologically connected to the hebrew word "Tehom" that in english is translated as "the deep" in Genesis 1:2:
"... and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Scholars have pointed at these and other early jewish mythological ideas as an indication of a more non-monotheistic past.
An intriguing thing about Genesis is also that nowhere it is stated that God created Tehom, something that might have influenced some qabalists who thought that the Qliphoth/The Sitra Ahra/The Dark Light existed even before JHVH.


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gurugeorge
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05/07/2008 3:44 pm  
"rzk" wrote:
gurugeorge:
Anyone could say “oh, but the qliphoth is just the material world/other nations/whatever”, and really push the reductionist button to the limit, but then anyone that knows anything about qabalah would realize what kind of arguments those are; true, but reductionist and in the sense of esoterism possibly missing the point. .

Well it wasn't me indulging in "nothing buttery" there, I was just reporting. I take the view that the Qabalah (in the sense of Zohar at least) is a late mediaeval thing, but I also take the view that it was designed by a profound mystic (or possibly a school of them), so of course it can have these profound kinds of resonances.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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05/07/2008 5:49 pm  
"rzk" wrote:
Dogstar:
Well it depends which occult system you are working in. If you are an initiate of the (T)OTO for instance, you would go through several sephirotic spheres up to Daath before begin working the qliphoth (if you are not for some reason using the hidden and secret passageway to the qliphoth that Grant talks about in quite open words). If you are an initiate in the Dragon Rouge, where you begin working with the qliphothic spheres almost directly, it is a good idea to at least get some kind of theoretical information about it. The passageway that Grant talks about is taught in the very beginning of the initiation in the Dragon Rouge.

Well, Typhonian or Caliphate, there seem to be a lot of work being done with the Liber 231 at the moment. I just meant that for the uninitiated seeker there are so much more recorded experiences with the Tree of life for people to begin with.


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 Anonymous
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08/07/2008 2:02 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Uni_Verse" wrote:
A question, as I have no experience with the Qlippoth...

You mention, Tree of Knowledge - Is that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or something unrelated?

I think there are several very different ideas floating about on this one. The alternative Black Tree of Life is not the same thing as the Tree Of Knowledge of Good & Evil. This issue as far as I am concerned though is whether or not there is a legitimate Left Hand Path version of The Tree Of Life. If you follow KABBALAH DENUDATA then this was The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good & Evil. A seven qlippoth (or spheres similar to sephiroth on the Tree Of Life) that counts down from right to left and has eight paths only two of which are above the abyss and with none but virtual joins to the 5 spheres below the abyss. It's other name is the formation of the soul, what is was called in Matthers translation anyway.
As fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge Good and Evil are the forbidden fruit (whilst the Tree Of Life's was fine), to study it even is to become a Black Brother of the Left Hand Path, why Crowley and co., side stepped it. This is the ultimate Left Hand Path tree at least in the Kabbalah of The Golden Dawn and Theosophists anyway. It even explains why the Great White Brotherhood think the Left Hand Path don't cross the abyss, a confusion between 7 grades and 10 (7 horns of the Red Dragon versus 10 of the Beast, aswell as the number of spheres and so on). It's all in the Bible of course too, in particular Genesis and Revelations.

The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good & Evil

1: The Absolute
2: Reason (left not right, of the top one)
3: Passion (level with 2 on right)
Abyss
4: Mikael [The Good Angel] (left again)
5: Samael [The Evil Angel] (level with 4 on right)
6: The Image
7: The Image of the Image (or is it the Object and will we ever know).

Paths exist from 1-2, 1-3, 4-5, 4-6, 4-7, 5-6, 5-7, 6-7.

Spheres 2 and 4 constitute the pillar of Good on the left and spheres 5 and 3 constitute the pillar of Evil. The middle pillar is then 1, 6 & 7.

If been studying the above for years and have more that I hope to include in a full right up some time. The whole thing can be summed up by the Ancient Egyptian symbol worn in later Egypt that has Set on the right and Horus on the Left both facing each other and supporting the eye of Horus (left again) and the eye of Ra before a small altar. This universal symbol is the understanding brought on by non-duality of very opposite natures in general. To face these things is to tempt madness and hence the Left Hand Path is the most dangerous path, why it was discouraged in all neophytes.
It is not the path of bigotry and moronic worshipers of destruction. No member of the Nazi party or similar idiots ever ascended to the real Black Lodge. True morality and taboos become irrelevant to the Black Brothers but amoral does not mean immoral. Satanism is more of a counter to Christianity than it ever was a Black Lodge version of it, protest theology doesn't count.
It is more the dangerous path of Alchemy rather than religious Theology (see Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkrutz) and for some people there is no alternative, except the madness that is coming for them or death. I would not advise the Left Hand Path (and I mean the true Black Brotherhood) to anyone who has an alternative, I just wasn’t given one.

Alex

Love is the law, love under will.


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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08/07/2008 2:29 pm  
"gurugeorge" wrote:
"Dogstar" wrote:
Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture.

I think people should get the whole picture. I think a great way of easing people into the Tree of Life would be to point them to Alan Moore's amazing Prometheaseries of comics (now in graphic novel format). He goes through the whole shebang. It's slighly idiosyncratic but a good intro nevertheless for someone who's never encountered any of this stuff before. He sets the Qlipoth in the context of the whole picture.

Excellent reccomendation there Gurugeorge! I have the complete set in hardback and require all my pagan/non Ceremonial origined students to read it. It gives them some ground to stand on. Moore (he's been discussed here before I know) is *at least* an Adeptus Major or the equivalent, from what he reveals in Promethea.


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gurugeorge
(@gurugeorge)
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08/07/2008 8:44 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
"gurugeorge" wrote:
"Dogstar" wrote:
Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture.

I think people should get the whole picture. I think a great way of easing people into the Tree of Life would be to point them to Alan Moore's amazing Prometheaseries of comics (now in graphic novel format). He goes through the whole shebang. It's slighly idiosyncratic but a good intro nevertheless for someone who's never encountered any of this stuff before. He sets the Qlipoth in the context of the whole picture.

Excellent reccomendation there Gurugeorge! I have the complete set in hardback and require all my pagan/non Ceremonial origined students to read it. It gives them some ground to stand on. Moore (he's been discussed here before I know) is *at least* an Adeptus Major or the equivalent, from what he reveals in Promethea.

Yeah, it's really quite an amazing thing in the world, when you think about it, that two of the most gifted and famous comics writers (Moore and Morrison) are quite hardcore, Crowley-respecting magicians. Spread those memes! 🙂


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