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herupakraath
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20/08/2012 12:16 pm  

The following link leads to a page that holds a solution to the riddle of verse II:76 of the Book of the Law: http://www.thelima.org/Solution.html


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lashtal
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20/08/2012 2:01 pm  

'A solution', no doubt, but certainly not 'the' solution, which requires little or no numerological games. Still, each to their own.

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Azidonis
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20/08/2012 9:18 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
'A solution', no doubt, but certainly not 'the' solution, which requires little or no numerological games. Still, each to their own.

What is 'the' solution, pray tell?

I don't doubt that many "qabalahs" can be derived from Liber AL. I think we've all seen enough proof of that. But, I think the the systems that are derived from those qabalahs is something to take a look at. And I did say derived, not contrived.


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 Anonymous
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21/08/2012 3:18 am  

http://www.thelima.org/Solution.html

You couldn't be just a bit creative with the name of your site, that a misspelling of Thelema seemed like the best option?  HAHA!


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 Anonymous
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21/08/2012 4:54 am  

That came off as me sounding like more of a dick than I intended.  Its just that you're less likely to get many visitors to your site with people searching "Thelema" and your site being spelled that way.


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lashtal
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21/08/2012 11:32 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
What is 'the' solution, pray tell?

If you think *I* profess to know 'the' solution, then you've missed the point of my post.

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herupakraath
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21/08/2012 12:46 pm  
"N.O.X" wrote:
http://www.thelima.org/Solution.html

You couldn't be just a bit creative with the name of your site, that a misspelling of Thelema seemed like the best option?  HAHA!

FYI, Thelema is the ancient pronunciation of the Greek form of the word, whereas Thelima is the modern pronunciation. Evidence has yet to be presented that the author of the Book of the Law prefers the ancient pronunciation over the modern one. On the other hand, evidence has been generated that shows the modern pronunciation is profound in regard to the established meaning of the word.

Using the gematria system of the Tahuti Key, Thelima has a enumeration of 43, the same as the enumeration of Will. The equation implies the author of TBOTL intends a modern view of Thelema / Thelima, as opposed to embracing and encouraging the pursuit ancient religious dogma.

In a related equation, The Law of Thelima has an enumeration of 97, the same as Do what thou wilt, which also supports the validity of Thelima as a a proper transliteration of the Greek word.


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herupakraath
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21/08/2012 1:06 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
'A solution', no doubt, but certainly not 'the' solution, which requires little or no numerological games. Still, each to their own.

I'm puzzled as to how you can exclude the use of numbers as a means of solving the riddle, when as a point of fact it contains numbers. Without the use of qabalistic methods of some sort--some which are supported by statements made in the Book of the Law--the riddle is nothing more than a string of nonsensical letters and numbers.

I could also demonstrate with total clarity and precision that my full name and place birth are encoded in the riddle, just as I can with verse III:47, but it would be wasted on those who consider such work "numerological games."  😉


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Los
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21/08/2012 2:12 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
I'm puzzled as to how you can exclude the use of numbers as a means of solving the riddle, when as a point of fact it contains numbers.

Riddles can contain numbers but still not involve numbers in the solution. Take, for example, the children's riddle, "I am an odd number. Remove one letter from my name, and I become even. Which number am I?"

The answer is "Seven," because removing the letter "S" leaves the word "even."

The trick to solving that riddle is thinking outside the box and not just blindly assuming that the solution involves the spelling of an odd number becoming the spelling of an even *number.*

I would suggest that "solving" the riddle in Liber AL probably involves similarly thinking outside the box. It seems to me that a "solution" that's nothing more than inane number games is both boring and unconvincing, exactly as your ridiculous "proofs" are.

Isn't it interesting that these preterhuman whatzamacallits supposedly have all this super-duper secret knowledge but they decide not to clearly and directly state any of this knowledge, instead leaving vague riddles and puzzles that people can read all sorts of information into? It's sort of like the way that the Christian God decided not to clearly and directly state in his Bible any knowledge not already possessed by the people who wrote it: the Bible just contains a bunch of vague passages that people can twist to fit later knowledge.

It's just pathetic.


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lashtal
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21/08/2012 2:45 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
I'm puzzled as to how you can exclude the use of numbers as a means of solving the riddle, when as a point of fact it contains numbers.

You need to read a post before responding to it. My post was quite clear and I said nothing about 'excluding the use of numbers'. I said:

"lashtal" wrote:
requires little or no numerological games

By 'numerological games' I was referring to the enormous number of feeble 'qabalistic noodlings' that infest the web and which we can all find through Google. Your 'noodlings' were no better or worse than most of the others out there, but they still utterly miss the point. Sometimes a number is just a number. Leave gematria and allied 'lucky number' games aside and what are you left with? What else do numbers in this sequence, supplemented by letters in their own sequence, sometimes represent?

Not for the first time, Los seems to 'get' it, by the way.

I'll add one last hint: look at a scan of the original manuscript.

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Azidonis
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21/08/2012 4:18 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
What is 'the' solution, pray tell?

If you think *I* profess to know 'the' solution, then you've missed the point of my post.

Well you seem to know what it's not, so I asked if you knew what it is. That's all.


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MoogPlayer
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22/08/2012 3:34 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
FYI, Thelema is the ancient pronunciation of the Greek form of the word, whereas Thelima is the modern pronunciation.

This is absolutely ridiculous. The rest of your post is nonsense. I fail to see how your reasoning supports the validity of anything you claim. Your sure generating something, but it's not evidence... it smells like BS!

"lashtal" wrote:
By 'numerological games' I was referring to the enormous number of feeble 'qabalistic noodlings' that infest the web and which we can all find through Google.

Herupakraath, how does it feel to know that your "proof" does not instantly convince anyone? I would think that if it were a literal prophecy, the person who comes to fulfill it would furnish some kind of proof that would settle the matter for good. The very nature of the proof would be universally accepted and we would know it beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the prophecy had been fulfilled. I have yet to see anyone making this kind of claim, support it with that kind of proof.

For now I agree with Los and Paul on an "outside the box" answer.

Even if you had solved the riddle, what then? Do we all submit ourselves to your learned council? Should we send you our money? What does this mean for thelema?

Also, have you ever considered that maybe your wrong? (honest question)


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herupakraath
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23/08/2012 2:12 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
By 'numerological games' I was referring to the enormous number of feeble 'qabalistic noodlings' that infest the web and which we can all find through Google. Your 'noodlings' were no better or worse than most of the others out there, but they still utterly miss the point. Sometimes a number is just a number. Leave gematria and allied 'lucky number' games aside and what are you left with? What else do numbers in this sequence, supplemented by letters in their own sequence, sometimes represent?

Not for the first time, Los seems to 'get' it, by the way.

I'll add one last hint: look at a scan of the original manuscript.

Perhaps you will consider skipping the hints and vague responses and provide specific information--I have.

So far, all that you and Los have added to the discussion are fleeting speculations, whereas I contributed tangible evidence supporting my position--I'll leave it up to the rest of the forum to decide which carries more weight.

I'm willing to go one step further if you and Obscuruspaintus are willing to participate in a simple exercise. On January 31st of this year I submitted a donation to you as payment for a book that Obscuruspaintus offered for sale with the proceeds going to Lashtal.com. I still have the private messages in my message folder in case either of you have erased them. As a result of the transaction, both you and Obscuruspaintus were made aware of my name and location. If I demonstrate to both of you that my name and location are encoded in the riddle of verse II:76 of TBOTL, will you verify it without revealing any of the specific details? Keep in mind that I reside in the USA, where in some areas we are but one election away from burning non-Christians at the stake.

If you verify the truth in my claim, I'll demonstrate the statistical improbability of such an occurrence happening at random.

As inferred, the riddle of verse II:76 is multidimensional and contains other revelations in it, all of which can be determined using nothing but the English gematria system derived from the letter counts in the Book of the Law, a system formed using the letters and numbers in the first two columns of the Tahuti Key. I can say with complete confidence that the Tahuti Key can and has been be used to successfully address every mystery posed in the Book of the Law, an aspect that separates my work from the "qabalistic noodlings" of others.


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Los
 Los
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23/08/2012 4:08 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
I contributed tangible evidence supporting my position

Ahahahahahahahahaha.

If I demonstrate to both of you that my name and location are encoded in the riddle of verse II:76 of TBOTL

You still don't get it. That's not surprising, but it is disappointing.


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HG
 HG
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23/08/2012 6:21 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
'A solution', no doubt, but certainly not 'the' solution, which requires little or no numerological games. Still, each to their own.

I could also demonstrate with total clarity and precision that my full name and place birth are encoded in the riddle,

Well of course you found your name and place of birth, because you were looking for them.

If you were to look for my name and place of birth instead, you would find them.

What we have here is a good example of the Law of Fives from Principia Discordia:

The Law of Fives states simply that: ALL THINGS HAPPEN IN FIVES, OR ARE DIVISIBLE BY OR ARE MULTIPLES OF FIVE, OR ARE SOMEHOW DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY APPROPRIATE TO 5.

The Law of Fives is never wrong.

In the Erisian Archives is an old memo from Omar to Mal-2: "I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look."

So before you get all exited about finding your own name in the riddle, try to find somebody else's name in the riddle as well.  I bet you'll find it if you look hard enough.


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lashtal
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23/08/2012 1:21 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
Perhaps you will consider skipping the hints and vague responses and provide specific information--I have.

No, you haven't provided 'information' - you've just made some bizarre assertions and attempted to support them with a variety of number games. I have made no 'hints and vague responses': you're misinterpreting clear instructions as obscure allusions.

"herupakraath" wrote:
So far, all that you and Los have added to the discussion are fleeting speculations, whereas I contributed tangible evidence supporting my position--I'll leave it up to the rest of the forum to decide which carries more weight.

I think we've already witnessed just how much 'weight' the members here believe your 'tangible evidence' to carry.

"herupakraath" wrote:
On January 31st of this year I submitted a donation to you as payment for a book that Obscuruspaintus offered for sale with the proceeds going to Lashtal.com.

Just for clarity: you bought a book, the proceeds of which were kindly and generously donated to this site by the seller. There's no reason you should have contributed, of course, but it's a little disingenuous to indicate that you have.

"herupakraath" wrote:
You and Obscuruspaintus were made aware of my name and location. If I demonstrate to both of you that my name and location are encoded in the riddle of verse II:76 of TBOTL, will you verify it without revealing any of the specific details?

I can't speak for Obscuruspaintus, but, yes, go on, let's give it a go. I don't hold out much hope for your claim but I commit to looking at it dispassionately and without revealing your address.

"herupakraath" wrote:
I can say with complete confidence that the Tahuti Key can and has been be used to successfully address every mystery posed in the Book of the Law, an aspect that separates my work from the "qabalistic noodlings" of others.

You've demonstrated nothing like this to date and, until you do, your 'noodlings' are no better or worse than the other numerous solutions available online. Perhaps you're keeping the best till last?

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wellreadwellbred
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23/08/2012 1:47 pm  

[The following verse] "... appears to be a Qablaistic test (on the regular pattern) of any person who may claim to be the Magical Heir of The Beast. Be ye well assured all that the solution, when it is found, will be unquestionable. It will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction." (Source: The New Comment to II,75:).

My reading of AC's new comment to II,76 above: II,76 might not be what it appears to be, "a Qablaistic test". The solution to the mystery of II,76 is simple.   

"It is the prophet, the 'forth-speaker' who is never to know this mystery. But that does not prevent it from lying within the comprehension of the Beast, kept secret by him in order to prove any one who should claim sonship. The last part of this verse presents no difficulty." (Source: The New Comment to II,76:).

My reading of AC's new comment to II,76 above: The mystery of II,76 is within my comprehension, but is kept secret by me in order to test any one who should claim to have solved it.

In his New Comment to II,75, AC also states the following:

"(The above paragraph was written previous to the communication of Charles Stansfeld Jones with regard to the 'numbers and the words' which constitute the Key to the cipher of this Book. See the Appendix to these comment. I prefer to leave my remark as it originally stood, in order to mark my attitude at the time of writing)."

But as pointed out by MichaelStaley in his first posting in the thread http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,5777.0.html - "QBL is vibration-based", Crowley considered the LA/AL polarity, as set out by Jones, to be "the Key of it all". But even though Charles Stansfeld Jones according to AC found this key which is mentioned in III, 47, this still leaves the mystery of II,76 unsolved.

Source for AC's New Comment to The Book of the Law: http://hermetic.com/legis/new-comment/


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Shiva
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23/08/2012 6:51 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
"But that does not prevent it from lying within the comprehension of the Beast, kept secret by him in order to prove any one who should claim sonship."

The phrase that was quoted is "does not prevent it from."

"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
My reading of AC's new comment to II,76 above: The mystery of II,76 is within my comprehension, but is kept secret by me in order to test any one who should claim to have solved it.

The word used in your "reading" is "is."

Is and does not prevent it from are worlds apart. We must consider that AC was known to drop these kinds of hints all over the place, especially in terms of the grade of Ipsissimus and the terrible secret of the ninth degree. To these, we now add the secret knowledge of the QBL mysteries of Liber AL.


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wellreadwellbred
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23/08/2012 8:39 pm  

About the solution to "this mystery", that is the mystery of II,76, AC states the following in the New Comment: 

"Be ye well assured all that the solution, when it is found, will be unquestionable. It will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction."

AC assures us that the solution to II,76, when it is found, will be unquestionable. I take this as an indication that the solution to II,76 was within AC's comprehension. In other words, to me this indicates that AC always knew that the solution to II,76 is both simple and unquestionable.

If it is the case that AC always knew the simple and unquestionable solution to the II,76-mystery without ever revealing it, then this would be a good example of his humor or humour.


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OKontrair
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23/08/2012 9:08 pm  

Or - not.

It is perfectly possible to define/outline the required characteristics a putative solution needs to have in order to be considered satisfactory without having any idea what it is.

OK


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kidneyhawk
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24/08/2012 5:28 am  

I'm interested in the reply to Paul's post.

Many years back, I took upon myself the name "Kidneyhawk." Hence, Kyle's screen name.

This name came from a conversation with a co-worker where we were joking about a Native American Tribe functioning as Kidney Thieves. I laughed and said: "Yeah, they'd led by a "Chief Kidneyhawk." As we chuckled, I looked up into the sky and was suddenly struck. "There is something about that name," I said.

Of course, I did Gematria on it-and, of course, I came up with convoluted interpretations based on 777 etc.

I discovered David Cherubim's English Qabalah MANY years down the line. For me, it worked. In fact, I reference this in my recent essay for Scarlet Imprint's "At The Crossroads" and I, to this day, work the system. After various revelations (some of which are shared in my essay), I typed in "Kidneyhawk."

It's value?

666.

Now let's look at what at what I can do with this.

Kyle's the Beast. He's back, Jack. I'm the Chosen One. Blah-blah.

Crock of Shit.

Remember Timothy Leary drawing his Tarot Card (see R.A.W.'s Cosmic Trigger)?

Yep, Leary was the Beast-back for the psychedelic attack.

What I got from Kindeyhawk=666 was in line with the Magi of Liber Aleph. Those who rise up as Magi are in line with the Word of the Beast. I hit that Current. It was a joke, a casual conversation-but it turned my eye to the Sun and I FELT something powerful. Years down the line...BANG! I couldn't have PLANNED this!

Fortunately, this all coincided with explorations in Kenneth Grant which led me far beyond Thelemic Megalomania. I discovered so much more. Kindeyhawk=666 was incidental.

Who wrote the Book of the Law? Aiwass? Crowley? Who cares? It says that all numbers are INFINITE!

I think that any Magician who wants to work with Gematria should avail themselves of Kenneth Grant's essay on "Creative Gematria" in Outer Gateways. How we handle our synchronicites and connections is of importance. It matters not only to the world at large but to our own Soul-Self.

I am working on an essay for the upcoming volume of Starfire which postulates that the Neophyte in ANY Order is taking upon Himself the Oath of the Abyss. We are ALL "Masters of the Temple" who are simply realizing ourselves as such.

I've been at this for a good while now. It's my feeling that the "riddle" of Liber AL is-like the rest of the book-possessed of a multidimensional nature.

Seriously, is the "Solver" who presents "Sublime Simplicty" to be regarded as some kind of "Aeonic Spokesperson?"

Crowley was "Spokesperson" of the "Aeon of Horus" and all us know that he was a dysfunctional human being who delivered great insight with great wit.

Guess what? That's each and every one of us! (Well-666...it's the "Number of a MAN!")

As I said, I am curious as to the "riddle" being applied to H's name and address. But whatever. Kidneyhawk is 666 and I'll argue the logic of my Gematria against any other with an exhausting tenacity.

The basic concern is this: what do numbers do for you? How do they impact your life, your reality? And is this impact really something of value? Does it change things up?

BTW-Kidneyhawk is a "handle." My real (ahem) "Magical Name" doesn't fit into any Magical System. And that's just fine. Let my idiosyncratic numbers be symbol-talk between me and God (ala C93, we're SICK SICK SICK of SIX SIX SIX).     

Looking forward to the continuance of this thread,

Kyle


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lashtal
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24/08/2012 12:23 pm  

A good, refreshing post, Kyle. As so often.

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obscurus
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24/08/2012 3:41 pm  

  93

For what it's worth, I did not keep the information referenced earlier in this thread.
Always willing to participate just the same.

93/93


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wellreadwellbred
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24/08/2012 9:45 pm  

The first posting in this thread contains a hyperlink to a solution to the riddle of verse II.76: of The Book of the Law

According to Charles Stansfield Jones (Fr. Achad), he sent his Liber 31 where he sets out the LA/AL polarity, to AC about
September 3, 1919, and on September 9, 1919 received this reply from

AC: " = 418."Thou knowest not." Your key opens Palace. CCXX has unfolded like a flower. All solved, even II.76 & III.47. Did you know Π = 3.141593? And oh! lots more!" Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib31.html

Is the solution to II.76:, mentioned above by AC in his reply to Achad, explained in detail elsewhere in AC's writings?

"I,55: The child of thy bowels, he shall behold them.

The New Comment [...]

[...] It is evident, moreover, from Chapter II, verse 39, that there is more than one 'child'. Further comment on this matter is to be found in the appropriate places. [...]

[...] As it turned out, this child [= Achad] justified his identification as such, not only in the cipher (there cometh one -- i.e. Achad -- to follow thee) but by discovering "the key of it all."" Source: http://hermetic.com/legis/new-comment/

According to the quotes above from AC's New Comment to the verse I,55:, Charles Stansfield Jones (Fr. Achad), "justified his identification as" [...] "The child of thy bowels" (= the child mentioned in the verse I,55:), in the cipher in II,76.

The verse II,76 contains both the chipher 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L, and the words "there cometh one to follow thee", words which AC quotes in his New Comment to the verse I,55:. The verse II,76 is by the way the only verse in The Book of the Law where the words "there cometh one to follow thee" are used.

Do anyone know a source containing Achad's use of the II:76 cipher to justify his identification as "The child of thy bowels" (= the child mentioned in the verse I,55:), or where AC explaines Achad's use of the II:76 cipher for this justification? 

Or am I missing AC's point in his New Comment to I,55:, his point being that the words "there cometh one to follow thee" is the cipher in II,76, and that the cipher is not 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L?


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OKontrair
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24/08/2012 10:56 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
the cipher is not 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L?

That's right. It isn't.

OK


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herupakraath
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25/08/2012 7:37 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
No, you haven't provided 'information' - you've just made some bizarre assertions and attempted to support them with a variety of number games. I have made no 'hints and vague responses': you're misinterpreting clear instructions as obscure allusions.

Well then, please excuse my ignorance; I have no idea what this statement means:

What else do numbers in this sequence, supplemented by letters in their own sequence, sometimes represent?

I'll add one last hint: look at a scan of the original manuscript.

Perhaps you can clarify the statement for the sake of someone who just doesn't "get it."

your 'noodlings' are no better or worse than the other numerous solutions available online. Perhaps you're keeping the best till last?

I am saving the best for last--35,000 words that include over150 unique gematria equations that were developed as a means of answering specific questions posed by the Book of the Law that until now have gone unanswered. The work is complex enough that trying to make a convincing case online in a forum such as Lashtal is impossible. My intention in starting this thread was to introduce the work to interested individuals, not to convince anyone of anything. Convincing evidence that approaches the level of proof requires a complex convergence of coincidences that cause all of the pieces to fall into place, an achievement that is beyond the space limitations of this forum. 

I'm amused by the responses that assume I'm ignorant of the mathematical nuances of gematria, including the possibility of random occurrences. The example provided by Kidneyhawk might apply to a newbie who recently decided to jump on the gematria bandwagon and has no conception of the problems inherent in gematria work, but I have thirty years experience in this field, which includes writing custom software to aid in my research.

My name and place of birth are encoded in the riddle of verse II:76 in the most simple manner, just as Aiwass intended. The gematria system that reveals the fact is derived from the counts of letters in both the published version of the Book of the Law and the Liber L holograph. While the counts of letters in each book are different, the hierarchy of letters is the same, and form the same gematria system:

E = 1, T = 2, O = 3, H = 4, A = 5, S = 6, I = 7, N = 8, R = 9, L = 10, D = 11, U = 12, F = 13, M = 14, Y = 15, W = 16, B = 17, C = 18, G = 19, P = 20, K = 21, V = 22, J = 23, X = 24, Q = 25, Z = 26.

The riddle of verse II:76 is formed by two lines of text in the holograph, with each line representing one of two parts. By enumerating the letters in each part of the riddle, my name is encoded in the first part, and my place of birth in the second:

4 6 3 8 ABK 2 4 ALGMOR 3 Y
X 24 89 RPSTOVAL

ABKALGMORY = 118 = (my full name as recorded on my birth certificate)
XRPSTOVAL = 101 = (the city and state of my birth)

Paul, I'm sending you a pm that states my full name.

The enumeration of all the letters in the riddle is 219; subtracting the sum of the numbers in the riddle, 143, from the value of the enumerated letters results in 76, the number of the verse the riddle appears in, and the enumeration of my first and last name. The value 89, the last number in the riddle, is the enumeration of my first and middle names.

The chances of all the coincidences related to my name occurring in the riddle at random are truly astronomical, but impossible to demonstrate as such. However, by concentrating on the probability of my full name and place of birth appearing in the riddle in form of gematria values, a telling statistic can be generated.

A software routine was written that assigns the values 1-26 to the English letters at random; each gematria system generated was tested to see if it could cause the letters in the two parts of the  riddle to have the same enumeration as my name and place of birth. Note that a specific enumeration for the letters in either part of the riddle was not required--any enumeration was allowed provided it could match that of my full name or location. Using a state of the art computer, hundreds of millions of gematria systems were generated and tested, and a statistic formed from the results. One system in every 3,300,000 systems generated was up to the task, which means the probability of my name and place of birth equaling the enumeration of the letters in the riddle at random are 1 / 3,300,000.

Have you ever wondered why Crowley refrained from assigning verse numbers to the first chapter of the holograph? The answer is simple: Aiwass wanted it that way. Adding the count of numbered pages in Liber L to the count of numbered verses produces a sum that equals the enumeration of the letters in the riddle of verse II:76: 65 pages + 79 verses + 75 verses = 219.

Thus ends my introduction to the Tahuti Key.


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wellreadwellbred
(@wellreadwellbred)
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25/08/2012 10:11 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
[...] Sometimes a number is just a number. Leave gematria and allied 'lucky number' games aside and what are you left with? What else do numbers in this sequence, supplemented by letters in their own sequence, sometimes represent?

Not for the first time, Los seems to 'get' it, by the way.

I'll add one last hint: look at a scan of the original manuscript.

Unlike what Los seems to do, I don't 'get' it, but others might do, and they can find a scan of the original manuscript of The Book of the Law through Google by searching for Liber XXXI HOLOGRAPH.


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HG
 HG
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25/08/2012 10:17 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
A software routine was written that assigns the values 1-26 to the English letters at random; each gematria system generated was tested to see if it could cause the letters in the two parts of the  riddle to have the same enumeration as my name and place of birth. Note that a specific enumeration for the letters in either part of the riddle was not required--any enumeration was allowed provided it could match that of my full name or location. Using a state of the art computer, hundreds of millions of gematria systems were generated and tested, and a statistic formed from the results. One system in every 3,300,000 systems generated was up to the task, which means the probability of my name and place of birth equaling the enumeration of the letters in the riddle at random are 1 / 3,300,000.

So what you're basically saying is:

You did a computer search to find a gematria system that makes your name appear in the Liber Al riddle.  And you found one.

Congratulations.  We're all very impressed here.

(slow clap)

Do you have that computer program anywhere?  I'd like to use it to find a gematria that makes my name and place of birth appear in the riddle.


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SatansAdvocaat
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25/08/2012 12:20 pm  

Just a quick pot-pourri of observations.

'Thelima' might be the way that the word for "will" is pronounced and transliterated into English in Modern Greek, but the word remains spelled as thelema - the underscoring noting an eta, so that in Greek gematria the word remains 93.

herupakraath has clearly spent far too much time working on computer programmes generating various number analyses of the text of Liber AL.  This is not gematria, its called number crunching.

Gematria is an apparently intellectual but essentially subjective mystical technique whereby personal interaction and meaning may be derived from the contemplation of esoteric texts.  That "newbie...jumping on the gematria bandwagon" (I paraphrase) a.k.a Kidneyhawk - how dare he have such audacity as to do such a thing without using a valid computer programme ? - is clearly aware of this.

My own little, simple "Qabbalistic Solution of  AL.II.76" was published in the penultimate issue of the Typhonian O.T.O. Newsletter KHABS back in the early 1990s - looked at my text last night, but did not dig out the newsletter.  Would not state that it revealed all of the potential mysteries of the cipher by any means, but it made a damn sight more straightforward sense than this 'Tahuti Key'.


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herupakraath
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29/08/2012 12:56 pm  
"HG" wrote:

So what you're basically saying is:

You did a computer search to find a gematria system that makes your name appear in the Liber Al riddle.  And you found one.

Congratulations.  We're all very impressed here.

(slow clap)

As stated more than once, the gematria system that shows my name and location concealed in the riddle of verse II:76 is derived from the counts of letters in the Book of the Law. Are you being intentionally obtuse, or is it your intention to twist my words around in order to make yourself look ignorant?


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herupakraath
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29/08/2012 2:53 pm  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
'Thelima' might be the way that the word for "will" is pronounced and transliterated into English in Modern Greek, but the word remains spelled as thelema - the underscoring noting an eta, so that in Greek gematria the word remains 93.

There has been zero evidence presented thus far that shows the author of the Book of the Law included the sole Greek word found in it with the goal of expressing the number 93 using Greek gematria. Ironically, such a connection can be demonstrated with the Tahuti Key in two different ways, an accomplishment that highlights the need for an English Qabala: to verify or discount the various theories that have emerged in regard to the content of the book.

herupakraath has clearly spent far too much time working on computer programmes generating various number analyses of the text of Liber AL.  This is not gematria, its called number crunching.

Would you mind stating your level of experience or qualifications for making such a judgment?

I spent several years writing gematria software and applying it to TBOTL in order to answer the question of whether someone--a discarnate entity for instance--could actually encode a complex body of secrets in the text of the book using English gematria. I came to the conclusion it could be done with an ordinal gematria system, but not with a cardinal system.

As for my work with the Tahuti Key, I wrote a simple routine that counts the letter occurrences in the Book of the Law, and created a gematria program that calculates the enumeration of words and and phrases that are typed individually into the program, which saves the laborious effort of performing hand calculations. The inference that I performed a blanket analysis of TBOTL with software is presumptuous on your part, and incorrect.


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kidneyhawk
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30/08/2012 4:19 am  

H-

Please know that I am not of the opinion that your discoveries are arbitrary or vain. Perhaps, I'll come to that view. Perhaps, not. But without requiring you to provide the details around your name or place of birth, I wish to ask:

What does this mean to you?

Let us say that I (and everyone else here in the "online Thelemic community") acknowledge the veracity of your discovery. What does this MEAN?

It is my experience (and I can only speak from this) that a "Gematriatic Hit" is proven in its power to the degree that it moves from the Realm of the Conceptual into the Realm of the Real. We have examples in Crowley's life of such movements. This is not because he was "chosen" but because he was "in the groove" of working the Magic.

Please know that I am not being snarky or cynical here. I am FAR beyond wanting to be the Beast's "Child" and I honestly don't care very much about the so-called "cipher." I'm too busy doing my own thing, my own WILL. Crowley is a portion of MY world.

Still, as a portion of my World, I have great interest in all those who "come after."

So, again, I'll repeat my question:

You ARE signified in the "riddle." So what does this MEAN? Is it simply a justification of your discovered system of EQ, a way of the Gods saying "Hey! Yo! Pay attention to THIS!"

Buddha told us that the world is on fire and asked why we're laughing. I'm not laughing. But I'm not buying into all the frowns that follow.

I crave my own liberation and also the liberation of all beings. I don't see these as distinct. I'm on the Path as much as I'm the Path.

You don't need to tell me your name or justify your system to me. All I am asking is: what is the VALUE? You posted this on a public forum (and I've done the same with my own Gematrias). We want to SHARE.

Target ME and tell me what this means for Kyle the Thelemite, Kyle the Spiritual Being, Kyle the Man.   


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SatansAdvocaat
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30/08/2012 2:03 pm  

Don't know much about computer programming, herupakraath, but I have been working with the text of Liber AL since the early 1980s - although I acquired my first copy c.1975 e.v.  Been working with Qabbalah and Hebrew gematria since about the same time; some Greek also, and even devoted some time to the so-called English Qabala when it first started emerging.  Getting more and more interested in the Greek at present, especially in relation to the Gnostic matrix.  Readers of STARFIRE may well be aware of some of the ways in which I have applied this particular interest over the years.

Your approach simply does not appeal to me, especially when you present it in such a dogmatic and evangelical way.  I believe that kidneyhawk feels much the same, viz his most recent posting.  Given the circumstances of your presentation of your gematriacal revelation, I believe that his request is not unreasonable.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
01/09/2012 3:19 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
H-

Please know that I am not of the opinion that your discoveries are arbitrary or vain. Perhaps, I'll come to that view. Perhaps, not. But without requiring you to provide the details around your name or place of birth, I wish to ask:

What does this mean to you?

Let us say that I (and everyone else here in the "online Thelemic community") acknowledge the veracity of your discovery. What does this MEAN?

It is my experience (and I can only speak from this) that a "Gematriatic Hit" is proven in its power to the degree that it moves from the Realm of the Conceptual into the Realm of the Real. We have examples in Crowley's life of such movements. This is not because he was "chosen" but because he was "in the groove" of working the Magic.

Please know that I am not being snarky or cynical here. I am FAR beyond wanting to be the Beast's "Child" and I honestly don't care very much about the so-called "cipher." I'm too busy doing my own thing, my own WILL. Crowley is a portion of MY world.

Still, as a portion of my World, I have great interest in all those who "come after."

So, again, I'll repeat my question:

You ARE signified in the "riddle." So what does this MEAN? Is it simply a justification of your discovered system of EQ, a way of the Gods saying "Hey! Yo! Pay attention to THIS!"

Buddha told us that the world is on fire and asked why we're laughing. I'm not laughing. But I'm not buying into all the frowns that follow.

I crave my own liberation and also the liberation of all beings. I don't see these as distinct. I'm on the Path as much as I'm the Path.

You don't need to tell me your name or justify your system to me. All I am asking is: what is the VALUE? You posted this on a public forum (and I've done the same with my own Gematrias). We want to SHARE.

Target ME and tell me what this means for Kyle the Thelemite, Kyle the Spiritual Being, Kyle the Man.   

Exquisite.


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herupakraath
(@herupakraath)
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03/09/2012 4:38 am  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
You ARE signified in the "riddle." So what does this MEAN? Is it simply a justification of your discovered system of EQ, a way of the Gods saying "Hey! Yo! Pay attention to THIS!"

Finding my name and location concealed in the riddle happened within a few days of first working with the system three years ago; the fact served as a guiding light that drove my efforts forward. Until overwhelming evidence suggested otherwise, I entertained the possibility the link between myself and the riddle was mere luck. Much later, I determined the statistical improbability of the link being random.

The view now held is the author of TBOTL knew decades before I was born that I would find the system in question and concealed evidence of the fact in the riddle.

I crave my own liberation and also the liberation of all beings.

As do I. The only thing that can liberate the human race is truth, or the freedom required to pursue potential truth. The first concern of all Thelemites should be the truth, regardless of all other considerations.

You don't need to tell me your name or justify your system to me. All I am asking is: what is the VALUE? You posted this on a public forum (and I've done the same with my own Gematrias). We want to SHARE.

Target ME and tell me what this means for Kyle the Thelemite, Kyle the Spiritual Being, Kyle the Man.   

My construction and use of the Tahuti Key has achieved a number of things that may interest you, with the most important being an understanding of the three grades named in verse I:40 of TBOTL. The key to mapping the grades is found in the irregular capitalization of the word Earth in the grade man of Earth; proper punctuation requires the word Man be capitalized instead of Earth, which suggests the word Earth is a deliberate clue that provides insight into the grades.

The enumeration of Earth is 21, the sum of the numbers 1-6: an important fact as will be demonstrated. There are only two trumps in the tarot deck that bear the imagery of a man and correlate to the element of earth; one is the Hermit, which is already associated with one of the grades, leaving the Hierophant to serve as the significator of the grade Man of Earth. The Hierophant corresponds to the earth sign Taurus, which occupies the sixth row of the Tahuti Key. The combined evidence suggests the grade Man of Earth consists of ordeals that correlate to the astrological features contained in the first six rows of the Tahuti Key. 

The grade Lover corresponds to the sign Gemini, which is represented in the tarot by the card The Lovers; the choice of the word Lover as the name of the grade instead of Lovers is also explained with gematria. The enumeration of Lover is 45, the sum of the numbers 7-11. The seventh row in the Tahuti Key is the location of Gemini, with the overall evidence suggesting the grade Lover consists of ordeals that correlate to the astrological features contained in rows 7-11 of the key.

The final pattern that defines the grade Hermit emerges upon realizing the twelfth row in the Tahuti Key is the location of the sign Virgo, represented in the tarot by the Hermit. Accordingly, the grade Hermit is defined as a series of ordeals that correlate to the remaining features of the key contained in rows 12-26.

The ordeals are initiated by invoking the idea within each row by using the symbol for it in column viii of the key. The symbols can be drawn in a clockwise direction to invoke, or in a counterclockwise direction to banish.

The ultimate significance of my name being concealed in the riddle of verse II:76 can only be understood completely by demonstrating the significance of all the names concealed in it.

The sum of the numbers in the second half of the riddle is 113, consisting of the enumeration of Aleister Crowley, Ankh-f-n-khonsu, and philosopher's stone. The equations support two claims made by Crowley: that he was Ankh-f-n-khonsu in a former life, and that he knew the secret to the philosopher's stone.

The equations are even more meaningful in light of the purpose of the Stele of Revealing and its inscriptions. The stele was created as a magical device to help project Ankh-f-n-khonsu into the future after his physical death. In the inscriptions, Ankh-f-n-khonsu is identified with Osiris, as are most beneficiaries of similar stelae. An obvious conclusion can be drawn about the links formed between the deceased and Osiris: the magical current of Osiris was used as a dynamic force to project the deceased into the future. The concept proposed can be confirmed with gematria:

24 + 89 = 113
Current of Osiris = 113
Ankh-f-n-khonsu = 113
Aleister Crowley = 113

The second half of the riddle contains the name of the Scarlet Woman concealed in the enumeration of its letters, revealing another profound aspect of the riddle that expands on the concept of magical currents associated with TBOTL:

XRPSTOVAL = 101
Rose Edith Kelly = 101
Current of Isis = 101

The equations linking Aleister Crowley and Rose Kelly to magical currents associated with Osiris and Isis confirm the explanation provided by Tahuti about what happened to A.C. and his wife  during the night spent in the Great Pyramid in November 1903. On that night, a link between the dormant magical currents of Osiris & Isis and humanity was established, which required appropriate human counterparts in order to form the links. The currents of Osiris and Isis are also correctly identified as those of the father and mother, which is an important point in understanding the dynamic properties of the two currents. Just as the physical union of the mother and father begets a child, the union of the magical currents of Osiris and Isis is required in order to produce the magical current of the child, or that of Horus. As a point of fact, nine months after the night spent in the Great Pyramid, Rose gave birth to their first child.

Also significant to the concept of magical currents is the preoccupation on the part  of A.C. with producing a magical child, and the repeated references to a child in TBOTL. The purpose of child described in TBOTL is to serve as the human link between the magical current of Horus and humanity. The riddle of verse II:76 also conceals a link between the current of the child and a human counterpart:

Current of Ra = 89
(My first and middle names) = 89

ABKALGMORY = 118
Current of Hoor the Son = 118
(My first, middle, and last names) = 118

The Great Equinox will occur on the vernal equinox of 2013, the first vernal equinox after the completion of the cycle of the precession of the equinoxes; on that day the full potency of the magical current of Horus will manifest itself, with the necessary links having already been formed.


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Los
 Los
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03/09/2012 8:23 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
Much later, I determined the statistical improbability of the link being random.
"Crowley" wrote:
The sequence B B B B B B B at roulette is most unlikely to occur; but so, in exactly the same degree, is the sequence B R B R R B R or any other sequence.  The one passes unnoticed, the other causes surprise, only because you have in your mind the idea of "a run on black."

Extend this line of thought a little, and link it up with what I was saying about the Magical Diary; you realize that every phenomenon soever is equally improbably, and "infinitely" so.  The Universe is therefore nothing but Coincidence!

"herupakraath" wrote:
The first concern of all Thelemites should be the truth, regardless of all other considerations.

The irony...it burns!


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
03/09/2012 10:50 am  
"Los" wrote:
"herupakraath" wrote:
Much later, I determined the statistical improbability of the link being random.
"Crowley" wrote:
The sequence B B B B B B B at roulette is most unlikely to occur; but so, in exactly the same degree, is the sequence B R B R R B R or any other sequence.  The one passes unnoticed, the other causes surprise, only because you have in your mind the idea of "a run on black."

Extend this line of thought a little, and link it up with what I was saying about the Magical Diary; you realize that every phenomenon soever is equally improbably, and "infinitely" so.  The Universe is therefore nothing but Coincidence!

"herupakraath" wrote:
The first concern of all Thelemites should be the truth, regardless of all other considerations.

The irony...it burns!

Another blinder from the enfant terrible of the Little Rock Junior Debating Society . . .


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
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03/09/2012 7:10 pm  

Mr. Staley, do you actually have anything to add to this debate yourself?

Or is it that you despise Los' opinions so badly, that you feel compelled to enter into every thread he is participating in, just to bust his balls?


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MoogPlayer
(@moogplayer)
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03/09/2012 7:29 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
Much later, I determined the statistical improbability of the link being random.

The view now held is the author of TBOTL knew decades before I was born that I would find the system in question and concealed evidence of the fact in the riddle.

Don't you understand that statements like this, aren't helping your argument?

This latest posting of yours doesn't actually explain or illuminate anything. Sorry.

I'm reposting these questions from earlier because you seem to have missed them:

Even if you had solved the riddle, what than? Do we all submit ourselves to your learned council? Should we send you our money? What does this mean for thelema?


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
04/09/2012 9:25 am  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
Mr. Staley, do you actually have anything to add to this debate yourself?

Yes.

"MoogPlayer" wrote:
Or is it that you despise Los' opinions so badly, that you feel compelled to enter into every thread he is participating in, just to bust his balls?

I don't despise Los's opinions; we agree on some things, differ on others. Contrary to your assertion, I don't participate in most of the threads in which he participates. I've no interest in "busting his balls".


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
05/09/2012 11:55 am  

I think he was responding in agreement with Los...


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Azidonis
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05/09/2012 2:12 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
You ARE signified in the "riddle." So what does this MEAN? Is it simply a justification of your discovered system of EQ, a way of the Gods saying "Hey! Yo! Pay attention to THIS!"

Finding my name and location concealed in the riddle happened within a few days of first working with the system three years ago; the fact served as a guiding light that drove my efforts forward. Until overwhelming evidence suggested otherwise, I entertained the possibility the link between myself and the riddle was mere luck. Much later, I determined the statistical improbability of the link being random.

The view now held is the author of TBOTL knew decades before I was born that I would find the system in question and concealed evidence of the fact in the riddle.

I'm not sure this adequately answers Kyle's question.


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herupakraath
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06/09/2012 1:23 am  
"Los" wrote:
"Crowley" wrote:
The sequence B B B B B B B at roulette is most unlikely to occur; but so, in exactly the same degree, is the sequence B R B R R B R or any other sequence.  The one passes unnoticed, the other causes surprise, only because you have in your mind the idea of "a run on black."

Extend this line of thought a little, and link it up with what I was saying about the Magical Diary; you realize that every phenomenon soever is equally improbably, and "infinitely" so.  The Universe is therefore nothing but Coincidence!

The implication that Crowley considered statistical calculations worthless is easily dismissed with another quote from him that shows him using a method similar to what I used for calculating the probability of an event occuring: from The Equinox of the Gods:

"Crowley" wrote:
One slip, and Fra. P. would have sent her to the devil. And that slip was not made. Calculate the odds! We cannot find a mathematical expression for tests 1,2,3,4,5, or 6, but the other 7 tests give us

    1/10 x 1/84 x 1/4 x 1/6 x 1/7 x 1/I0 x 1/15 = 1/21,168,000

Twenty-one million to one against her getting through half the ordeal!

Even if we suppose what is absurd, that she knew the correspondences of the Qabalah as well as Fra. P., and had know- ledge of his own secret relations with the Unseen, we must strain telepathy to explain test 12.

(Note. We may add, too, that Fra. P. thinks, but is not quite certain, that he also tested her with the Hebrew Alphabet and the Tarot trumps, in which case the long odds must be still further multiplied by 484, bringing them over the billion mark!


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Azidonis
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06/09/2012 2:50 am  

I still don't see what you are getting at with all of this, besides trying to prove you did some math. You haven't really answered Kyle's question yet.


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Los
 Los
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06/09/2012 5:10 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
The implication that Crowley considered statistical calculations worthless [...]

I didn't intend to imply such a thing at all. I was quoting a passage from Crowley in which he makes a good point about probability, one that you have yet to learn and that I will spell out for you below. What he may have expressed about probability elsewhere is irrelevant to this point.

First, consider this: what are the odds of being dealt a perfect hand in bridge? (Two through Ace, all of the same suit) The odds are somewhere in the realm of one in several billion. So, if you sat down to play your very first game of bridge and were dealt such a perfect hand, you might be inclined to say, "There must be some conscious effort at work here! Some entity (maybe the dealer) consciously arranged these cards so that I would get a perfect hand! It's the only way to explain this sheer improbability!!!"

And that might seem convincing to some people...until we consider what the odds are that any particular combination of cards is dealt. What are the odds of getting, for example, four of spades, queen of diamonds, two of hearts, eight of spades, etc., etc....some random hand that has no special meaning to a player? The odds are exactly the same as getting the perfect hand.

The difference -- and it should be clear where I'm going with this -- is in the mind of the person perceiving the supposed "improbability." You don't blink twice when you see the latter hand because you haven't defined it as anything special. When the former hand comes along -- even though it has the same odds of appearing as any other hand -- you think it special because you have the *idea* that it's special already. In other words, it's not some special coincidence...it's something you've gone looking for.

Let's consider a similar case. There are some theists who believe that the universe was created by an intelligent, non-corporeal being (they often call this being "God," but some theists have specific names/attributes for this being). Their evidence for this? Some make a "cosmological argument," pointing out that the odds of the universe forming exactly as it has (with the cosmological constants what they are, with the earth inhabiting a "Goldilocks Zone," with the events happening just right for abiogenesis and evolution to occur on this planet, etc.) are so wild (one in several trillion trillion billion, at least) that there must have been conscious agency at work to produce these results.

How else, they ask, can we account for such wild odds?

But they -- like our gamblers in the other examples -- make a crucial mistake: they fail to consider that the odds of the universe turning out in some different configuration are just as unlikely

And these examples have to do with the actual, external universe -- when we turn to number manipulations, in which you're free to invent your own system of numbering (or keep trying different systems until one produces results that you already want), in which you're free to add up the numbers in any way you please ("why, look, if you add the letters in the riddle, you get my name! The numbers? Oh, er, they add up to something else...."), in which you can basically keep trying stuff until you get a result that seems meaningful to you...you're incredibly likely to get a result that seems meaningful to you.

And if you have an ounce of creativity going into the process, the probability that you will find results that seem meaningful begin to approach what is technically called pretty fucking certain.

To talk about how "unlikely" it is that your name could "appear" in this book -- via the most convoluted method imaginable -- is gut-bustingly laughable.

Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that absolutely *no one* is swayed by anything you've said? Maybe not, since you can always delude yourself into thinking "a prophet is always despised in his own country" or whatnot, but seriously now, this sad little charade has gone on long enough, and the polite nudges of "Hmm, what does it mean to you?" are getting embarassing themselves at this point.

You're not some "special child" of a "magical book" dictated by some super-duper preternatural magic man in the sky. None of those things exist outside of fantasy novels. Nobody encoded your name in some obscure book because they're trying to send you messages. You're not a special little snowflake.

While I'm at it, I might as well tell you that there's no boogeyman or Santa Claus as well. Magick doesn't "cause coincidence" to happen, there aren't any spirits, and no, spirits can't help you find your lost cat. You're not a reincarnation of anyone, and you won't live again after you die. This life is the only one you get, and you flushed thirty years of yours down the drain chasing after some pathetic pipedream. Aside from any enjoyment you might have gotten while playing those number games, they haven't done a damn thing for you.

The whole thing is pitiful, and the ridiculous cult-like interest in finding a literal "child" predicted by some spiffy magical book dictated by a spaceman is worthy of nothing more than contempt, mockery, and derision.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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06/09/2012 5:31 am  
"Los" wrote:
some super-duper preternatural magic man in the sky. [...] some spiffy magical book dictated by a spaceman

Sometimes, Los, you write really good prose. 🙂

LXV 5:5: "So also is the end of the book, and the Lord Adonai is about it on all sides like a Thunderbolt, and a Pylon, and a Snake, and a Phallus, and in the midst thereof he is like the Woman that jetteth out the milk of the stars from her paps; yea, the milk of the stars from her paps."

Liber Milk: "Meow."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
06/09/2012 5:52 pm  
"Los" wrote:
And that might seem convincing to some people...until we consider what the odds are that any particular combination of cards is dealt. What are the odds of getting, for example, four of spades, queen of diamonds, two of hearts, eight of spades, etc., etc....some random hand that has no special meaning to a player? The odds are exactly the same as getting the perfect hand.

Naaa. You are confusing two different things. The first is a specific set of cards which as you say is as probable as getting a perfect hand. Yet that does not equal "some random hand that has no special meaning to a player?". A random hand is easy to get, a perfect hand very rare.
 
I have a question for some of the participants for in this thread. Why being so scornful?

 


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Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
06/09/2012 6:06 pm  
"2109" wrote:
Naaa. You are confusing two different things. The first is a specific set of cards which as you say is as probable as getting a perfect hand. Yet that does not equal "some random hand that has no special meaning to a player?". A random hand is easy to get, a perfect hand very rare.

You've misunderstood.

Any specific hand has the same probability of being drawn as any other specific hand. For example, the hand
"2ofSpades, 3ofSpades, 4ofSpades, 5ofSpades, 6ofSpades, 7ofSpades, 8ofSpades, 9ofSpades, 10of Spades, JackoSpaces, QueenofSpades, KingofSpades, AofSpades" -- has a probability of one in several billion, or whatever it is. That's a perfect hand.

The following hand has exactly the same probability of being drawn:
"3ofDiamonds, AofHearts, 7ofSpades, JackofClubs, 3ofHearts, 8ofClubs, 10ofDiamonds, KingofHearts, QueenofSpades, JackofSpades, 4ofDiamonds, 9ofClubs, AofDiamonds."

And so does the following hand:
"3ofClubs, AofDiamons, 7ofDiamonds, JackofSpades, 3ofHearts, 8ofDiamonds, 10ofSpades, KingofClubs, Queen of Clubs, JackofClubs, 5ofSpades, AofDiamonds, 10ofDiamonds."

I could keep going like this. Any combination of 13 cards has the same probability of coming out of the deck as any other combination of 13 cards.

Now, if we select one combination and declare it "special" -- which is what we do when we make up rules to games -- then yes, the odds that that the one combination we've defined as special will appear are much smaller than the odds that one of the billions of combinations we've defined as "not special" will appear. But the odds of any one particular combination appearing are still the same as any other.

Something similar happens in cosmological arguments. People using those arguments take the outcome of the blind processes that shaped the universe and treat it as if it were a goal, as if it's special. And they then marvel at the fact that this "special" combination has beat impossible odds to get here (unaware, apparently, that any combination of those blind processes would equally have to face just as impossible odds to get here).

That's why the "argument from improbability" fails every time, and that's before we even get to the whole "make up your own gematria" and "make up your own rules for which letters/numbers to add up" nonsense.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
06/09/2012 6:52 pm  
"Los" wrote:
we've defined as special will appear are much smaller than the odds that one of the billions of combinations we've defined as "not special" will appear. But the odds of any one particular combination appearing are still the same as any other.

Yet it is much more probable that one will get "some random hand which has no special meaning to the player" instead of getting a perfect hand. Aswell it is much more probable that one will not find one´s name and adress in Liber al Vel Legis then that one will.

Now, if we select one combination and declare it "special"

I think that the rules of example poker comes from the other way around. A Royal Straight Flush is considered special since it is much harder to get then a pair of seven for example. And the different combinations follow a certain logic. They are considered more special since they are showing an order instead of just being random cards. The more improbable the order is to get the more special they are considered.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5304
06/09/2012 8:34 pm  
"2109" wrote:
Why being so scornful?

1 - Because it's the same old nonsense we've seen here and elsewhere many times before.
2 - Because it's the modern equivalent of the juvenile 'I am the reincarnation of AC so you'd better believe what I say' rubbish.
3 - Because the claims are mathematically shallow and statistically void.
4 - Because the claim displays an inherent misunderstanding of the function and purpose of the verses in question.
5 - Because this is not an occult website and these numerological games are mumbo jumbo that have little to do with the site's function.
6 - Because, to be frank, the claims are worthy of scorn.

Now, would anyone mind if I close this worthless thread?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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