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 Anonymous
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06/09/2012 9:15 pm  

Nope!  Go for it, Paul!


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 Anonymous
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06/09/2012 9:34 pm  

I would prefer to finish what I´m discussing with Los.

 


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HG
 HG
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06/09/2012 9:35 pm  
"2109" wrote:
I have a question for some of the participants for in this thread. Why being so scornful?

Because scorn is the most appropriate reaction when someone claims to be The Chosen One Whose Coming Was Foretold.


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lashtal
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06/09/2012 9:41 pm  
"2109" wrote:
I would prefer to finish what I´m discussing with Los.

You do realise that comments as foolish or wilfully contrary as 'A random hand is easy to get, a perfect hand very rare' hardly constitute one side of a meaningful conversation, don't you?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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wellreadwellbred
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06/09/2012 10:17 pm  
"2109" wrote:
Why being so scornful?
"lashtal" wrote:
[...] 4 - Because the claim displays an inherent misunderstanding of the function and purpose of the verses in question.

5 - Because this is not an occult website and these numerological games are mumbo jumbo that have little to do with the site's function. [...]

Now, would anyone mind if I close this worthless thread?

I don't mind, but covering the function and purpose of the verses in question according to AC's legacy - would be in line with this site's function - and a most worthwhile addition to this thread, I think.


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 Anonymous
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06/09/2012 10:30 pm  

Well, even as the statement in itself is a truism my intention with what I wrote was to point out that we are looking at different ways of understanding probability. And what way we look upon it aswell can make a difference in how we relate to things as perhaps numerology or out in real life. 

A hand which is not special consists in itself of unique cards which as he says is as easy or hard to get as a Royal Straight Flush for example. Yet that is not the way most card games operates. What we are looking for there is the probability for "order" (instead of random cards) to take place. And the harder for it to happen the more we value it.

I strikes me that I think that humans operate in a similar way or logic IRL. When there are things which really sticks out of the ordinary this catches our attention.

 


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lashtal
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06/09/2012 10:57 pm  
"2109" wrote:
When there are things which really sticks out of the ordinary this catches our attention.

Exactly. But to assign meaning or significance just because we have a genetic predisposition to seek patterns in random phenomena is to act irrationally, especially if their random appearance results in claims such as we have seen in this thread. If you don't 'get' this then you really need to study - or perhaps just read for the first time - Crowley's standard texts. It really is no better than seeing simulacra in tree stumps, pyramids on Martian Cydonia and Jesus on toast.

I repeat in answer to your question:

"2109" wrote:
Why being so scornful?

1 - Because it's the same old nonsense we've seen here and elsewhere many times before.
2 - Because it's the modern equivalent of the juvenile 'I am the reincarnation of AC so you'd better believe what I say' rubbish.
3 - Because the claims are mathematically shallow and statistically void.
4 - Because the claim displays an inherent misunderstanding of the function and purpose of the verses in question.
5 - Because this is not an occult website and these numerological games are mumbo jumbo that have little to do with the site's function.
6 - Because, to be frank, the claims are worthy of scorn.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Los
 Los
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06/09/2012 11:08 pm  
"2109" wrote:
What we are looking for there is the probability for "order" (instead of random cards) to take place. And the harder for it to happen the more we value it.

The "order" deemed special by game rules is totally arbitrary. Why value a hand containing cards with numbers sequentially in a row? Why not value a hand containing cards that ascend by twos? Two, Four, Six, Eight, Ten, all of the same suit, are just as unlikely a combination as anything else, and there's an "order" to it, so why privilege one kind of order over another?

The "order" in question arises entirely from human brains attributing values arbitrarily.

I strikes me that I think that humans operate in a similar way or logic IRL. When there are things which really sticks out of the ordinary this catches our attention.

The human brain has been produced by evolution to seek patterns -- because seeking patterns is conducive to survival. The human brain also attributes causality because attributing causality also is conducive to survival.

The problem is that these pattern-recognizing and causality-seeking functions of the brain continue to work even in the absence of patterns to find or agents to attribute causality to: this leads us to make mistakes in perceiving reality.

For example, our pattern-recognizing brains sometimes induce us to think that Jesus' face appeared in that burnt toast or that our friends are plotting something behind our back -- but it turns out, often, these patterns are erroneously sensed by the brain. Similarly, we attribute causality even when there is no agent. When lightning strikes our car, we curse "fate" for "causing" this to happen or -- if we're foolish enough to believe in gods or spirits -- we attribute the causality to some ooky-spooky spirit.

In these ways, individuals build up a false impression of reality.

One of the purposes of practicing Thelema is to shift one's attention away from these distortions of reality that the brain creates, in order to see reality more clearly.


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lashtal
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06/09/2012 11:12 pm  
"Los" wrote:
One of the purposes of practicing Thelema is to shift one's attention away from these distortions of reality that the brain creates, in order to see reality more clearly.

Perfect!

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 Anonymous
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06/09/2012 11:58 pm  

But to assign meaning or significance just because we have a genetic predisposition to seek patterns in random phenomena is to act irrationally

What I meant is in one way rather breaks the pattern is what catches our attention. If we walk by the street in a city we´ll meet hundreds of people which is a unique event in the meaning that exactly these persons are walking here. (What Los is pointing out)

Yet we experience as just walking on the street since the street is normally filled with strangers which we don´t know. What breakes the pattern is when we meet someone we know (not so common in a really big city) or really breaks the pattern if we for example walks in to a flash mob.

And yes Paul I read the reply the first time. I came to the conclusion that we look at things in different light and didn´t think that it would yield anything by answering about why I disagree.

The "order" deemed special by game rules is totally arbitrary.

Yes I agree that one could have a poker-logic with ascending of two´s instead. Probably it says something about the human psyche that a straight row is prefered instead of ascending by two´s.

so why privilege one kind of order over another?

Because those which are harder to get are considered higher. 

all of the same suit, are just as unlikely a combination as anything else

No. The chans of getting a suit is lower then just anything else. 

One of the purposes of practicing Thelema is to shift one's attention away from these distortions of reality that the brain creates, in order to see reality more clearly.

Yes as most mystical systems.

For example, our pattern-recognizing brains sometimes induce us to think that Jesus' face appeared in that burnt toast or that our friends are plotting something behind our back -- but it turns out, often, these patterns are erroneously sensed by the brain. Similarly, we attribute causality even when there is no agent.

Yes.


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herupakraath
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07/09/2012 12:22 pm  

On a final note, I counter the various suggestions of delusion on my part with this true account:

http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html


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HG
 HG
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07/09/2012 2:42 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
On a final note, I counter the various suggestions of delusion on my part with this true account:

http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html

Oh Jesus fucking Christ.  "I'm not delusional, and to prove it, I'm telling this long and rambling story about how I can see the future by communicating with invisible Egyptian goblins."


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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07/09/2012 2:48 pm  
"HG" wrote:
"herupakraath" wrote:
On a final note, I counter the various suggestions of delusion on my part with this true account:

http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html

Oh Jesus fucking Christ.  "I'm not delusional, and to prove it, I'm telling this long and rambling story about how I can see the future by communicating with invisible Egyptian goblins."

Could you moderate your language, please?


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Michael Staley
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07/09/2012 3:07 pm  
"Los" wrote:
One of the purposes of practicing Thelema is to shift one's attention away from these distortions of reality that the brain creates, in order to see reality more clearly.

Thelema is the realisation and fulfillment of True Will. What you are alluding to here is one of a number of practices which may be of service in reaching that goal.


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HG
 HG
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07/09/2012 3:11 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"HG" wrote:
"herupakraath" wrote:
On a final note, I counter the various suggestions of delusion on my part with this true account:

http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html

Oh Jesus fucking Christ.  "I'm not delusional, and to prove it, I'm telling this long and rambling story about how I can see the future by communicating with invisible Egyptian goblins."

Could you moderate your language, please?

No.

If Paul asks, I will.  But this is not your web forum.


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herupakraath
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07/09/2012 3:31 pm  
"HG" wrote:
"herupakraath" wrote:
On a final note, I counter the various suggestions of delusion on my part with this true account:

http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html

Oh Jesus fucking Christ.  "I'm not delusional, and to prove it, I'm telling this long and rambling story about how I can see the future by communicating with invisible Egyptian goblins."

If a mere 3000 words strains your attention span I suggest you look for a different means of assimilating information.

The ignorant and fearful have been, and will always be critical of experiences that are beyond their level of experience and understanding.


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Azidonis
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07/09/2012 4:36 pm  

Told ya... it has come down to, "read my blog", "read my website", "buy my book".


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Los
 Los
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07/09/2012 4:57 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Thelema is the realisation and fulfillment of True Will. What you are alluding to here is one of a number of practices which may be of service in reaching that goal.

Well, this is one of our fundamental disagreements. I claim that the shifting of attention away from the illusory constructions of mind is, in fact, the equivalent of discovering the True Will and that all (ceremonial, meditative, etc.) "practices" are -- at best -- preparation for this Work.

You can read my run-down of my methods here: http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,5638.msg70826.html#msg70826

In that post, I explain what the Thelemic practitioner tries to accomplish, how the practices work to serve that end, and how the practitioner can tell that the practices do, in fact, work.

You are more than welcome to post -- either on that thread or here -- a similarly detailed explanation of how your preferred methods work, for the benefit of people who may wish to use them. Of course, in order for you to use your own methods effectively, you would have to have already answered these questions for yourself and thus it should be child's play for you to answer them out loud.

I would view that sort of conversation as productive (as opposed to the unproductive "look, I found my name in a secret code!" conversation going on now).


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arthuremerson
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07/09/2012 5:48 pm  

Los,

That would certainly be a better conversation than the one going on here which should have ended on page one with Paul's initial response. I don't imagine Mr. Staley will placate you, but that is neither here nor there as I am chiming in only to humbly request that this thread be closed.

Best to you all,
Jason


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MoogPlayer
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07/09/2012 6:52 pm  
"Los" wrote:
In that post, I explain what the Thelemic practitioner tries to accomplish, how the practices work to serve that end, and how the practitioner can tell that the practices do, in fact, work.

You are more than welcome to post -- either on that thread or here -- a similarly detailed explanation of how your preferred methods work, for the benefit of people who may wish to use them. Of course, in order for you to use your own methods effectively, you would have to have already answered these questions for yourself and thus it should be child's play for you to answer them out loud.

I would view that sort of conversation as productive (as opposed to the unproductive "look, I found my name in a secret code!" conversation going on now).

That was posted back in July. It's a shame you didn't have a single person take you up on this. The thread just kind of died.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
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07/09/2012 7:21 pm  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
That was posted back in July. It's a shame you didn't have a single person take you up on this. The thread just kind of died.

The lack of response was surely indicative of a lack of interest in the post.

Rather than bemoan the lack of response, why don't you respond now? Just a thought.


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Los
 Los
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07/09/2012 8:30 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
The lack of response was surely indicative of a lack of interest in the post.

That's one interpretation. Of course, it strains credulity to think that a serious discussion of the practice of Aleister Crowley's system would attract little interest on a website dedicated to the man's legacy. One would naturally assume that interest in such a subject would be rather high.

Indeed, you yourself, Michael, are interested in the subject of Thelema's definition and practices that aid one toward its goal, as demonstrated when you objected to me earlier in this thread: "Thelema is the realisation and fulfillment of True Will. What you are alluding to here is one of a number of practices which may be of service in reaching that goal."

If you're interested enough to object to this point in my writings, it follows that you would likely be interested enough to object even more strongly (and in more detail) to the post I linked to, where I give an elaborated version of the statement you responded to. As I say, it seems odd for someone to be interested enough to object to something I say but then implicitly claim not to be interested in responding at all when I explicate those comments further.

There are a few other ways to interpret a lack of response to my post. It could always be -- and just to be clear, I'm speaking generally here and not speaking about Michael or anyone in particular -- that people are interested in the subject but not interested in discussing it with me, for whatever reason (including not liking my attitude, or wishing to avoid a public confrontation of some kind), and they're certainly entitled to feel that way. However, if this were the case, it strikes me as odd that so many people who profess interest in Crowley's writings are so spineless as to want to back down from spirited textual exchanges.

The cynic in me compels me to at least consider the possibility that there are people so inept at their study of Crowley that they have no interest in seriously discussing how his system practically works. The other cynical interpretation is that there are people interested in the subject, but keenly aware that they are unable to discuss it in an intelligent way. Even worse, it may be that there are people who believe intelligent discussion of this subject is actually an impediment to progress, thus reversing the actual state of affairs.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
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07/09/2012 9:26 pm  
"Los" wrote:
That's one interpretation.

Clearly the likeliest, I'd have thought..

"Los" wrote:
Of course, it strains credulity to think that a serious discussion of the practice of Aleister Crowley's system would attract little interest on a website dedicated to the man's legacy. One would naturally assume that interest in such a subject would be rather high.

Indeed. It must have been the way you expressed yourself, therefore. It seems to me that your manner often detracts from the points you are making. I'm happy to go into this further, if you'll try not to take it personally.

"Los" wrote:
Indeed, you yourself, Michael, are interested in the subject of Thelema's definition and practices that aid one toward its goal, as demonstrated when you objected to me earlier in this thread: "Thelema is the realisation and fulfillment of True Will. What you are alluding to here is one of a number of practices which may be of service in reaching that goal."

Oh, I'm passionately interested in Thelema, and have been for more than three decades. However, my interest lies primarily in the work I undertake. Although I had enough of an interest to pick you up on that particular point, I'm not overly interested in speculating about defining this, that or the other; I'm happy to leave that to intellectuals such as yourself.

"Los" wrote:
If you're interested enough to object to this point in my writings, it follows that you would likely be interested enough to object even more strongly (and in more detail) to the post I linked to, where I give an elaborated version of the statement you responded to.

No, it doesn't follow at all.

"Los" wrote:
As I say, it seems odd for someone to be interested enough to object to something I say but then implicitly claim not to be interested in responding at all when I explicate those comments further.

I saw the post when you posted originally. I wasn't interested in responding then, otherwise I would have.

"Los" wrote:
There are a few other ways to interpret a lack of response to my post. It could always be -- and just to be clear, I'm speaking generally here and not speaking about Michael or anyone in particular -- that people are interested in the subject but not interested in discussing it with me, for whatever reason (including not liking my attitude, or wishing to avoid a public confrontation of some kind), and they're certainly entitled to feel that way. However, if this were the case, it strikes me as odd that so many people who profess interest in Crowley's writings are so spineless as to want to back down from spirited textual exchanges.

Have you ever considered the possibility that some don't find your opinions as interesting as you think they should? As boring, even? It might contribute to the lack of response. Just a thought.

"Los" wrote:
The cynic in me compels me to at least consider the possibility that there are people so inept at their study of Crowley that they have no interest in seriously discussing how his system practically works. The other cynical interpretation is that there are people interested in the subject, but keenly aware that they are unable to discuss it in an intelligent way. Even worse, it may be that there are people who believe intelligent discussion of this subject is actually an impediment to progress, thus reversing the actual state of affairs.

This forum doesn't revolve around you and what you consider we should or should not be interested in. There's plenty of intelligent discussion which goes on here. It was going on before either of us arrived here, and doubtless it will continue long after we have both departed.


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lashtal
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07/09/2012 10:00 pm  
"HG" wrote:
Oh Jesus fucking Christ. "I'm not delusional, and to prove it, I'm telling this long and rambling story about how I can see the future by communicating with invisible Egyptian goblins."

HG: Please tone down the language.

Having said that, your second sentence is spot on, as will be clear to anyone who has bothered to read http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Azidonis
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07/09/2012 10:23 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
Having said that, your second sentence is spot on, as will be clear to anyone who has bothered to read http://www.thelima.org/Presence.html
"Herupakraath's website" wrote:
"A. Extraordinary beings exist in dimensions that transcend the physical plane.
    B. Such beings have the ability to communicate with humans by projecting
thoughts into our minds.
    C. Said beings have the ability to affect the visual perceptions of multiple
individuals simultaneously, causing them to see identical phenomena that defy
rational explanation.
    D. Such beings are capable of manipulating,  foreseeing, and affecting the outcome
of complex scenarios of events.
    E. At least some of said beings are benevolent in nature, and have an interest in
the human race."

Found one!


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MoogPlayer
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08/09/2012 5:57 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
That was posted back in July. It's a shame you didn't have a single person take you up on this. The thread just kind of died.

The lack of response was surely indicative of a lack of interest in the post.

Rather than bemoan the lack of response, why don't you respond now? Just a thought.

Not exactly the present topic of the thread, but ok...

I gotta warn you, my response won't look much different from Los'. I don't really believe in aliens, or spirits, or magical powers.

My current daily practices consist of Liber Resh, Lesser Banishing/invoking ritual of the pentagram, meditation, and study. I also occasionally do divinations, invocations and other "operations" along those lines, when I feel the need to.

Do these practices work for me? Well, as far as I can tell yes.

Reciting Liber Resh at designated times keeps me on a particular schedule, and helps me to connect with the world outside of my own perception. I work for myself, and am naturally very introverted. This practice helps me break out of that state of mind, and stay focussed on interacting with the world. Theoretically I could do this many ways. I don't attribute the effectiveness of the ritual to some magical property of the words or actions. It simply works for me. I perform it because Crowley suggested it in his writings, and I write down how I think it's performance effects me in a journal. Reviewing the journal over long periods of time has shown me that it does indeed have this effect on my life.

I also perform the ritual of the pentagram often. It's useful to me when I feel my emotions are overwhelming my ability to think clearly and make decisions... or when I'm about to do something in which I need to significantly change my state of mind. Specific examples would be like when I'm about to play music, or be creative, or engage in some activity where I might "get in my own way". Does that makes sense?

I might use it when I am upset, or aggravated by something (or conversely, when I'm over joyed or stimulated). It helps me to change the "vibe" of my surroundings.

I record these results in a journal. Repeated performances of this ritual have helped me keep the feeling it produces at the forefront of my mind. This in turn has made it less necessary to repeat the ritual over time, as well as making it easier for me to achieve the result without having to perform all the actions.

As for divination, I might as well quote Los because he said almost exactly what I would have said:

By applying a randomly-generated set of symbols (with more or less objective meanings) to one’s life-situations, one can realize other ways of looking at one’s situation. Frequently, one tends to view situations in set ways, dictated by the mind’s thought patterns (overlays of the Khu). By exposing oneself to different ways of interpreting the situation – inspired by a random symbol-set – one can learn the limitations of one’s mind and begin to cultivate broader ways of thinking about situations.

When I feel stumped or need a fresh perspective something I use tarot, or I ching. it usually inspires a whole new rush of thoughts or possibilities that I may have not have been consciously paying attention to before the divination... I also ask friends for advice, but some matters are more private than others and I'd rather consult with "myself".

Meditation for me could mean anything from doing breathing exercises, along with reciting mantras (while sitting in "asana"), to performing specific visualizations and reflecting upon certain tarot cards, or other esoteric principles. I try to make time for this every day. half hour or more.

How do I know if it works? It provides a constant source of inspiration for my art and writing. Meditation actively helps me become better at maintaining the state of mind I would like to be living in. It provides a wealth of insight and drives me to ask questions about things that I would normally remain ignorant of.

Occasionally I perform invocations or other "magical" ceremonies like the construction of talismans and etc. These are usually created based off the principles given by Crowley, and adhere to hermetic and cabalistic symbolism. Subsequent ceremonies are also performed to create the equipment I use in this kind of practice.

I perform this kind of "magic" because I understand the cabalistic principles to represent certain aspects of my psyche. When I need access to, or balancing in one principle or another, these practices help my mind to change gears, and move more in the directions I would like it to. This is not just limited to magical ceremony either. I might also wear certain colors, eat certain foods, and do what I can to get in touch with the principle which I am trying to make contact with.

These practices help inspire and affect my art/music, as well as my state of mind, and possibly has effects on other areas of my life. I write any results in my journal, and typically fall back on 777 or other classical resources to analyze the experience.

My studies include any kind of reading or research I am doing... this could be magic, music, art, philosophy, politics, etc.

Throughout all of this I keep a journal, as suggested by Crowley. I'm also a member of a magical order which I will not name. Thats where I learned to perform Resh, and the other things I do (some of which are secret, obviously).

A big reason I do any of this is because it makes me happy, and it is what I like to spend my time doing. Also because I am trying to gain an idea about what True will is, and how it manifests. This is how Crowley has suggested to seek it out.

Reading about Thelema, and Liber Al, I feel a personal resonance with Crowley's philosophy. I feel that it makes more sense to me than any other way of life.

Now that I have answered, I hope others will continue do the same... In the appropriate thread of course.


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Azidonis
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08/09/2012 6:26 am  
"MoogPlayer" wrote:
Now that I have answered, I hope others will continue do the same... In the appropriate thread of course.

Is there a link to the appropriate thread?


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MoogPlayer
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08/09/2012 6:31 am  

http://www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php/topic,5638.msg70826.html#msg70826

Los linked to it on page 5 of this thread.

(Sorry for any typos in the last post... time for bed.)


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Azidonis
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08/09/2012 7:22 am  

Oh... right.


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MoogPlayer
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08/09/2012 8:35 am  

I also posted the response in Los' thread, just incase Michael or others want to pick the conversation back up again.


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Azidonis
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08/09/2012 9:06 am  

Actually, it wasn't "Los' thread".

It seems that both posts (yours and Los') along that subject matter should be a part of a completely new thread (ie. their own thread), instead of dropping it into other random ones.


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MoogPlayer
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08/09/2012 9:24 am  

Yeah, your right. It wasn't Los' thread. My bad. I wouldn't say it's necessarily 'random' though, considering the replies came about in the course of normal conversation.

If Los or someone else wants to start a new thread I'll leave that to them. :).

I guess this one has run it's course... (although I'd still like to see Herupakraath answer those questions.)


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SatansAdvocaat
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08/09/2012 12:04 pm  

Please oh Please, Paul, do terminate this thread as an act of mercy killing.

Truly it is making me lose the Will to live.  Worse than Facebook !


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lashtal
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08/09/2012 12:38 pm  
"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
Please oh Please, Paul, do terminate this thread as an act of mercy killing.

Truly it is making me lose the Will to live.  Worse than Facebook !

Agreed absolutely. Hopefully, members will understand now why I've resorted to the 'This is not an occult site' disclaimer!

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