Tzaddi and the Star
 
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herupakraath
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23/03/2013 3:59 pm  

I have added a new page to my site that delves into the He-Tzaddi switch conceived by Aleister Crowley, with special emphasis place on the ultimate purpose of the switch:

http://www.thelima.org/Tzaddi.html


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belmurru
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25/03/2013 9:55 am  

Thanks Herupakraath.

I think Crowley came to the Star-Emperor/Heh-Tzaddi switch gradually, between 1918 and 1920, for reasons detailed in this post collecting Crowley's remarks, arranged chronologically, on the issue -
http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3.msg12194#msg12194

From my reading it seems that the "Double Loop" insight came last, providing the decisive symmetry he was looking for. But he placed the Star on the path of Heh as early as the writing of Liber Aleph (although there is no evidence it occurred to him to switch it with Emperor-Heh yet. When he first expresses it, in 1920, it is in such an offhand manner, taken for granted, that he must have worked it out already some time before).

There seems to be an error in your chart of attributions, where you list Aries-IV- The Emperor twice, both under He and Tzaddi.

I am puzzled by your remark about a "problem" with historical decks -

"the need for the clarification is explained by the issue known to exist between trumps VIII and XI, cards that signify Libra and Leo in the zodiac. When the 12 trumps signifying the zodiac are arranged according to the order dictated by the zodiac, the roman numbers on the two cards are out of order, a problem seen in Tarot decks dating to the 16th century."

There really is no intrinsic problem - the order of these decks puts Strength or Fortitude at number XI. The perceived problem arose for the author of the Cipher Document, who could not understand how the apparently clear association between the Lion on the Strength card (of the so-called Tarot de Marseille decks) and the Scales of Justice could be so inverted when associated with the Hebrew Letter Astrological attributions of the Sepher Yetzirah. For him, Strength clearly belonged to Leo and Justice to Libra, so he invented a symbolic change originating in ancient Egypt to explain why they became "out of order" in the Tarot. This became the Golden Dawn's doctrine about the order of the cards - Strength is 8 (VIII) and Justice is 11 (XI).

But in reality the original Tarot trump sequence and subjects, invented in the early 15th century in northern Italy, had nothing to do with the Hebrew letters or their Sepher Yetzirah associations.


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herupakraath
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26/03/2013 5:57 am  
"belmurru" wrote:
I think Crowley came to the Star-Emperor/Heh-Tzaddi switch gradually, between 1918 and 1920, for reasons detailed in this post collecting Crowley's remarks, arranged chronologically, on the issue - http://www.lashtal.com/forum/http://www.lashtal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3.msg12194#msg12194

Thanks for link and the excellent research--I enjoyed revisiting your sources.

From my reading it seems that the "Double Loop" insight came last, providing the decisive symmetry he was looking for. But he placed the Star on the path of Heh as early as the writing of Liber Aleph (although there is no evidence it occurred to him to switch it with Emperor-Heh yet. When he first expresses it, in 1920, it is in such an offhand manner, taken for granted, that he must have worked it out already some time before).

Crowley's first inclination to attribute He' to the Star may have been intuitive. The link between the Star and He' as the mother letter of the Tetragrammaton is tenuous IMO, with a more meaningful purpose for the switch needed, which the double loop theory provides.

There seems to be an error in your chart of attributions, where you list Aries-IV- The Emperor twice, both under He and Tzaddi.

Indeed, and as of now has been corrected. Thanks for the heads up.

I am puzzled by your remark about a "problem" with historical decks -

"the need for the clarification is explained by the issue known to exist between trumps VIII and XI, cards that signify Libra and Leo in the zodiac. When the 12 trumps signifying the zodiac are arranged according to the order dictated by the zodiac, the roman numbers on the two cards are out of order, a problem seen in Tarot decks dating to the 16th century."

There really is no intrinsic problem - the order of these decks puts Strength or Fortitude at number XI.

There is a problem, as you explain below:

The perceived problem ( ;))arose for the author of the Cipher Document, who could not understand how the apparently clear association between the Lion on the Strength card (of the so-called Tarot de Marseille decks) and the Scales of Justice could be so inverted when associated with the Hebrew Letter Astrological attributions of the Sepher Yetzirah. For him, Strength clearly belonged to Leo and Justice to Libra, so he invented a symbolic change originating in ancient Egypt to explain why they became "out of order" in the Tarot. This became the Golden Dawn's doctrine about the order of the cards - Strength is 8 (VIII) and Justice is 11 (XI).

Regardless of any previous theories, based on the supposition some of the trumps are designed around the zodiac, or at least lend themselves to that end, the issue still remains that VIII and XI are out order in regard to the zodiac; in terms of symmetry, it is a problem, or was until the the double loop was conceived.

But in reality the original Tarot trump sequence and subjects, invented in the early 15th century in northern Italy, had nothing to do with the Hebrew letters or their Sepher Yetzirah associations.

We are in agreement. My point is the author of verse I:57 hints at counter-changing He' and Tzaddi as means of forming a link between the Hebrew alphabet and the zodiac that never existed before; it's a way of improving on a system that is inherently weak in many areas, while also providing a means of demonstrating how remarkably creative and clever he is.


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abn53
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11/03/2015 12:38 am  

Or, could Crowley be wrong?  See Liber 231 for Heh, and Liber 7, Ch. 5, v.5 for the Star!!


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herupakraath
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11/03/2015 12:08 pm  
"abn53" wrote:
Or, could Crowley be wrong?  See Liber 231 for Heh, and Liber 7, Ch. 5, v.5 for the Star!!

You suggest Crowley might be wrong, yet you direct us to two of his books for what I assume is some sort of solution to the issue: I find that ironic. What Thelema needs now more than ever is the clarification of issues concerning the Book of the Law, not more cryptic posturing by students of Crowley's system.

The better question is could Crowley be right in switching the letters, and someone else also be right by viewing the switch as unnecessary?

"All these old letters of my Book are aright; but {tzaddi} is not the Star" is a paradoxical statement that suggests there are two different yet correct points of view regarding the assignment of the letter tzaddi to the Star. Crowley's solution is well-known: in my opinion the solution is a cosmetic modification made to an antiquated magical alphabet that will be superseded by the English magical alphabet predicted in verse II: 55 of TBOTL. Using the gematria system of what I consider the magical alphabet predicted in verse II: 55, I can demonstrate that Crowley is correct in implementing the Heh-Tzaddi switch, yet also demonstrate there is a double meaning to the quoted sentence meant to be revealed by the Child of the Prophet.

The following proof is beyond a doubt the most bizarre solution to a verse in TBOTL I have penned, and happens to be the last one added to a book on the subject recently completed, some of which I intend to release this year: the following is a taste of what is to come.

The English gematria system used in this exegesis is derived from the counts of letters in the Book of the Law.

Examining the last sentence in the verse, my prophet shall reveal it to the wise, it generates the enumeration 222, the enumeration of The Beast Six Hundred Sixty-Six; the equation identifies Crowley as the prophet referred to in the verse, and in doing so verifies the correctness of the Heh-Tzaddi switch. The element missing in Crowley's solution is an explanation of how the old letters can be aright and yet require the change implemented.

Most of my work with the English gematria system being demonstrated utilizes standard gematria technique; there are however a few gems tucked away in the TBOTL that are revealed using a combination of notariqon and gematria. Applying notariqon to the words All these old letters of my Book are aright results in the letters ATOLOMBAA; enumerating the letters with gematria results in the value 64, the enumeration of Heh is not the Star. Notariqon for the entire quoted sentence excluding the letter tzaddi is ATOLOMBAABINTS; the enumeration of the letters is 104, the enumeration of Tzaddi is the Star.

Both of the notariqon sequences express outright that the Heh-Tzaddi switch is unnecessary, and from the point of view of someone working with the predicted English magical alphabet, such a position is justified.

To complete the exegesis, and to demonstrate the position taken by the Child of the Prophet is equally valid to that taken by Crowley, notariqon and gematria are also applied to the last sentence in the verse, mirroring the process of identification that names Crowley as the prophet referred to in the verse. Notariqon for my prophet shall reveal it to the wise is MPSRITTW: the letters enumerate as the value 76, the enumeration of the first and last names of the Child of the Prophet.

The above demonstrates how there can be both traditional elements of Qabalah referred to in TBOTL, while also concealing elements that define a new paradigm for Thelema.


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Anonymous
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12/03/2015 6:44 pm  

On a purely practical level I think the Emperor is more fitting for Tzaddi which links Netzach desire/emotions to Yesod unstable murky autonomic consciousness.  In terms of evolution/initiation an austere and dominant male force is appropriate to control and connect those two aspects/sephiroth.  OTOH the Star is clearly more "celestial" and appropriate for future work.

For further clarification I suggest this essay;  http://thelema-and-skepticism.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/paths-on-tree-of-life-sephiroth-7-10.html#more


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sagus93
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13/03/2019 10:26 pm  

[Moderator's Note: Spam deleted.]


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ignant666
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13/03/2019 11:07 pm  

Or some self promotion, or a sign that, despite all these "bomb cyclones" and whatnot, Spring is coming soon.

The music reminds me of the old line "Just say "Heck, no' to techno!".

Link review: Thelemic content ,minimal; exposition or useful information as to the OT, zilch. Things are for sale. Looks like a spam-duck, quacks like a spam-duck, maybe it is a spam-duck?


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sagus93
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08/08/2019 4:43 pm  

yes, there is some self promotion, but I thought the work on the cards have some merit.

and as a solitary adept with no connection to any wider circle, brotherhood or even aquaintances in the same field, its kind of my only last hope of finding friends.

yes, things are for sale, I need to eat too and never seen anybody giving his work away for free. Link is for the pdf, you could ignore the shop and the music section.

I guess doing art with no audience, putting all my soul in it and funding it by slaving my ass off in all kinds of ways is what I deserve for being a quack. You made my day a bit shittier, so thanks. Honest aspiration and pire intentions deserve nothing less, I guess.


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sagus93
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08/08/2019 4:45 pm  

but at least you saied something, thats a progress on my part... like, almost 5 people gave feedback to it so wow, gee, thanks again


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Shiva
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08/08/2019 6:07 pm  

s93: yes, things are for sale, I need to eat too ...

The gov should provide free food for adepts.

... and never seen anybody giving his work away for free.

Frater Shiva, that idiotus in terms of gaining financial profit, gives away much of his written work, Sometimes key Chapters. Sometimes a choice of Chapters. Sometimes a whole book in pdf drag.


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ignant666
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08/08/2019 6:27 pm  

Another place our petulant brother can go to see folks "giving [their] work away for free" would be academic publishing, where every single article-author, peer-reviewer, editor, etc does so 100% without any compensation.

This is not to say that the product of all this unpaid labor is available for free- the giant corporations that own all the journal publishing companies charge big bucks for access, and are constantly suing folks for unauthorized copying. The scam is starting to unravel of course, with "open source" publishing, labor boycotts, and a certain infamous Russian site that starts with "Sci" and ends with "Hub".

It is impressive that sagus 93 shows up here IN AUGUST to complain about me IN MARCH panning whatever utterly forgettable material was in the video. One would think he would have starved in the meantime, if he is relying on this stuff to eat.


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sagus93
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08/08/2019 8:08 pm  

as I wrote in the FREE pdf linked above (not a video... what video are u talking about?) , after 10 years of doing anything from IT support through warehouses, hypermarkets to social care for disabled ppl, I found a place on this planet where all that sustains me is nature around me, my garden, and magick. So no, I didnt starve to death, and yes, I answered after half year because my purpose here is to share my work and not argue on internet with sad closeminded individuals such as yourself, and unlike your courage, pouring selfassurance and big shoulders, my life happens mostly offline.

And FYI, I gave away much more of my art than what I sold, and what I sell is heavily underpriced anyway, so what the fuck is your deal? Even if its not like this, whats wrong on putting price on a painting?
The only reason I have almost no sales, no following and no real exposure of my work anywhere is, that I have no interest in becoming spambot or go down to commonly used promo methods widely used these days, as my integrity means much more to me than this shit. There is nothing else than childish enthusiasm and sincere dedication to the Work in my doings... and every time I stick nose out of my abode in mountains, I hit into vultures and braindamaged idiots such as yourself.

Dont worry, its more than enough for me to never show up on this place again and you can continue feeling awesome without interference, you mummified piece of shit....


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sagus93
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08/08/2019 8:34 pm  

last thing... I painted two new tarot cards, I explained all about them, I put them in context of Crowleys research and unresolved issues, and I posted it as a free pdf.

And here we are, having extensive debate on whether I have right to have an eshop on my page and how awfull music I like is..

Seriously, this is so dumb, sad and bizzare I dont believe my eyes.. you call yourself thelemites? My dog has more manners and common decency that what you demonstrated here. I dont know what drugs you take, but perhaps you should try less of them for your own good.

And frater Shiva... please go fuck yourself aswell.


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ignant666
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08/08/2019 8:51 pm  

Good golly Moses, what a charmer you are.

Sorry your work was so forgettable i thought a pdf i looked at 6 months ago was a video.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass your way out...


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Shiva
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08/08/2019 9:21 pm  

s93: my purpose here is to share my work and not argue on internet with sad closeminded individuals such as yourself ...

That's good. I approve of your FREE-lance working. Ignant is closeminded and argumentative because he is a lawyer. He will defend your right to be anarchistic and self-reliant, but you will have to prove your case before Judge Ignant before he sees your point of view.

If your point of view is teetery, wobbly, or misaligned, you will be exposed. If your point is stable, solid, and true, you will be upheld in the annals (anals?) of Thelemic history.

I have not yet read your point, but have now engaged interest, and I will download said pdf, peruse it, maybe study it. Then I will come back here and advise Ignant, your judge and defense attorney, as to what's going on from my limited perspective, being a married householder, yet a seasoned ascetic, out here in the middle of nowhere. It's Magick!


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ignant666
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08/08/2019 9:44 pm  

Ignant is closeminded and argumentative because he is a lawyer.

Could be that you have cause and effect backwards here. It's the old "Do cops become assholes, or do assholes become cops?" dilemma in a different form.

Perhaps you will be more impressed with our charming new friend's work than i was.


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Shiva
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08/08/2019 10:16 pm  

s93: I am a miserable writer, unpatient and too exited

Dx: Suboptimal emotional/mental control. Tx: Pranayama, dharana, grass.

Of course I didn't call it Oath of the Abyss back then, I made a magickal affirmtion of my intention to interpret everything I experience in life as a direct message from God, in my own words.

This has nothing to do with The Oath o the Abyss. It is a condensed form of the Oath of a Magister Templi, 8=3, equal to Los, 8=3, and other folks, like V.V.V.V.V., Achad, Motta, etc. You are now officially on the "big hook," which will be examined.

But I was hooked and in my mind ...

Yes, you see?

The case of "Tzaddi is not the Star" which this paper deals with is one of these unfinished and unresolved little details, even if I am not so sure now whether our prophet didn't left such a mess on purpose in order to speak only 'to the wise'. Who knows.

I do. And so do a bunch (amount unspecified) of other folks around here. The pro-fet explained how this switcheroo is switched (Mobius Ribbon).

"A normal Möbius strip is a surface with only one side. You can create one easily by taking a strip of paper, twisting it once, and then sticking it together."

The profit did not leave a mess. He inherited it via Liber AL. Then he figured it out and explained it. It involves a twisting of space-time. Since space-time is already twisted, due to Coriolis effect, anyone can figure this reasoning out.

Co·ri·o·lis ef·fect
/ˌkôrēˈōləs iˌfekt/
nounPhysics
noun: Coriolis effect; noun: Coriolis force

" an effect whereby a mass moving in a rotating system experiences a force (the Coriolis force ) acting perpendicular to the direction of motion and to the axis of rotation."

This is what gets wires, extensions cords, cables, and minds twisted. "Straighten UP! " Isay. "Get yourself properly aligned."

The rest of your essay is composed of you, yourself, trudging through several pages of symbols, correlation, and surfers. It is a lengthy, almost burdensomely detailed, process of you figuring something out, yet never completely desribing your results in a single paragraphed abstract. (An "abstract" is a summary.

Did you know that surfers were, originally, beachfront, territorial anarchists. They surfed, drank heavily, listened to jazz, and defended their piece of beach with fierce aggression? The Beach Boys came along and softened their image.

As for your (as N Joy would say) "potty-mouth," you are invited to bring your Tai Chi to the Tai Chi capital of rural New Mexico, in order to put your skill where your potty-mouth is.

Tzaddi is not the Star, but the internal visions (and external events) have such a commonality that one could easily be confused.

The fact (?) that one is leading from Chokmah to Tiphareth, while the other runs out of Netzach to Yesod, demonstrates a parallelism, a synchronicity, and a similarity of angle and flow ... to two different, key, focal points of consciousness. That is, one is the same as the other, but one is in a "higher" frequency range. Which is considered "higher," but in fact is lower (lower brainwave frequency).

Ignant, I suggest that sagus93, the lonely Adept, be commended to twenty years of community service, wherein he will teach his theory at bookstore seminars to countless people, and receives his feedback via the terrestrial and cosmic law(s) of cause and effect.


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christibrany
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08/08/2019 10:45 pm  

'...but is it marketable?'

Lots of people show up here and just unleash a salvo of acid bullets only to leave in a pout. I don't understand the motivation. Engage or don't bother starting #it.


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Shiva
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08/08/2019 11:18 pm  

cs: Lots of people show up here and just unleash a salvo of acid bullets only to leave in a pout. I don’t understand the motivation.

No need to understand motivation. They shall be judged by their actions (or words ... or attitude ... or actual altitude). Welcome to the wonderful world of anarchy. Every star in its orbit. Sometimes, free-wheeling comets come along.


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christibrany
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08/08/2019 11:57 pm  

Sometimes, free-wheeling comets come along.
And explode, hitting everything in their way.
Course correction needed Cap'n'.
The orbit is unstable.


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Jamie J Barter
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09/08/2019 12:33 am  

@Shiva :

I will come back here and advise Ignant, your judge and defense attorney, as to what’s going on

If Ignant is acting as sagus93's defense attorney I would hate to be on the receiving end of his prosecution! But... he's gone!* I take it he's a bloke, but could as well be a lady of course. Lady with a potty mouth. (A turn on for some.) See what you've gone and started now though, dom, with all your effing and blinding? Hush! Is that the footfall of Paul I hear advancing from the wings?!

And I never even got to say 'hullo'. I thought some of his/her tarot images were quite pretty, actually... Still, too late for flattery now. Also, shouldn't adepts be able to adapt (to cruel circumstance, sort of thing)?

By their acts shall they be known, or some jive like that
Norma N Joy Conquest

* Unless sagus is premature and/or bluffing of course, as so many have been and done before upon quickly exiting in a huff.


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Shiva
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09/08/2019 1:03 am  

JJB: Unless sagus is premature and/or bluffing of course, as so many have been and done before upon quickly exiting in a huff.

Both Ignant and I have formally (in writing) forsworn the Political thread. Yet we keep popping back up, like dildos in a box. (Jack, was that his name?).

Sagus the Magus may reincarnate at any time. In the Tibetan manner, we will recognize him by his angry responses and potty mouth. He will become a Tulku, a recognized reincarnation.


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ignant666
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09/08/2019 1:28 am  

Lady with a potty mouth.

Well, and a beard (not that there's anything wrong with that), if you check the icon closely.

Yet we keep popping back up, like dildos in a box. (Jack, was that his name?).

Or moths to a flame?


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Tiger
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09/08/2019 2:08 am  

Perhaps, the being that abides in to expressing itself with a beard; claiming an artificial "ego dissolution" experience is still a babe.

So the images that wung the ego about should just be presented and the ego should stop talking about itself. after all it was admitted that the writer was not very good .

As always more work to do.


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 Anonymous
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09/08/2019 2:11 am  

From my reading it seems that the “Double Loop” insight came last, providing the decisive symmetry he was looking for. But he placed the Star on the path of Heh as early as the writing of Liber Aleph (although there is no evidence it occurred to him to switch it with Emperor-Heh yet. When he first expresses it, in 1920, it is in such an offhand manner, taken for granted, that he must have worked it out already some time before).

here's the double loops and my gosh Crowley your mind.. that penis.. or is it just my mind 😀

MIRRORS _ KARMA

RED Entrance Air Exit

04 17 The generational Pii

“the need for the clarification is explained by the issue known to exist between trumps VIII and XI, cards that signify Libra and Leo in the zodiac. When the 12 trumps signifying the zodiac are arranged according to the order dictated by the zodiac, the roman numbers on the two cards are out of order, a problem seen in Tarot decks dating to the 16th century.”

There really is no intrinsic problem – the order of these decks puts Strength or Fortitude at number XI. The perceived problem arose for the author of the Cipher Document, who could not understand how the apparently clear association between the Lion on the Strength card (of the so-called Tarot de Marseille decks) and the Scales of Justice could be so inverted when associated with the Hebrew Letter Astrological attributions of the Sepher Yetzirah. For him, Strength clearly belonged to Leo and Justice to Libra, so he invented a symbolic change originating in ancient Egypt to explain why they became “out of order” in the Tarot. This became the Golden Dawn’s doctrine about the order of the cards – Strength is 8 (VIII) and Justice is 11 (XI).

crowley made an ADJUSTMENT to show JUSTICE of which he is part of... Justice is not currently Libra, it is Born of the beastly balance of THOTH (crowley).

But in reality the original Tarot trump sequence and subjects, invented in the early 15th century in northern Italy, had nothing to do with the Hebrew letters or their Sepher Yetzirah associations.

There was rumour ... soon dismissed by the naysayers that be that the Tarot had come from Ancient Egypt.

It may of been a card game that was trendy in Medieval Europe. HOWEVER as a book of knowledge it existed long before that, back back back.... it was a hidden book of knowledge in basic same format as today, telling the story of our universe. ALMOST... as we know It was disguised as a card game or trendy fortune telling. People have said this before but there has been no scientific basis to back up or evidence. So down through time the secret societies and "witches" carried forward the book of thoth,(knowledge) by now no longer consciously, the amazing logos race erased from memory, the peoples forgot.

With time, as with everything, there was movement, around five changes of significance, that still loosely fit the "supernatural" theme but enough for the keys to the universe to be missing. See legends of Hiram and the Temple. Soloman and so on... creating suppression of instinct and light' blinding the glory of natures delight....

It has only come through as myths and legends and tales. It was the only way it could survive. And what was it? partly knowledge of Wicca, the womb, the way of the elemental earth spirit . Natural Immunity, healing, regeneration, creation, .. Not dying, the live'r..

hence when the sky gods came here, they had no natural immunity to the planets woes... no Natural Immunity, healing, regeneration, creation, .. Not dying, the live'r.. which loosely explains ....."The first recorded account of the Prometheus myth appeared in the late 8th-century BC Greek epic poet Hesiod's Theogony (507–616). He was a son of the Titan Iapetus by Clymene, one of the Oceanids. He was brother to Menoetius, Atlas, and Epimetheus. Hesiod, in Theogony, introduces Prometheus as a lowly challenger to Zeus's omniscience and omnipotence.

In the trick at Mekone (535–544), a sacrificial meal marking the "settling of accounts" between mortals and immortals, Prometheus played a trick against Zeus. He placed two sacrificial offerings before the Olympian: a selection of beef hidden inside an ox's stomach (nourishment hidden inside a displeasing exterior), and the bull's bones wrapped completely in "glistening fat" (something inedible hidden inside a pleasing exterior). Zeus chose the latter, setting a precedent for future sacrifices (556–557). Henceforth, humans would keep that meat for themselves and burn the bones wrapped in fat as an offering to the gods. This angered Zeus, who hid fire from humans in retribution. In this version of the myth, the use of fire was already known to humans, but withdrawn by Zeus.[13] Prometheus, however, stole fire back in a giant fennel-stalk and restored it to humanity (565–566). This further enraged Zeus, who sent the first woman to live with humanity (Pandora, not explicitly mentioned). The woman, a "shy maiden", was fashioned by Hephaestus out of clay and Athena helped to adorn her properly (571–574). Hesiod writes, "From her is the race of women and female kind: of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, no helpmeets in hateful poverty, but only in wealth" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

wiki -prometheus

wealth or health...
familiar with adam eve cain and abel ..

@Iggy Azazel It is impressive that sagus 93 shows up here IN AUGUST to complain about me IN MARCH panning whatever utterly forgettable material was in the video. One would think he would have starved in the meantime, if he is relying on this stuff to eat.

Didn't van gogh die poor?

I sent a plethora of complaints about you to the complaints department. I finally got a reply back from God's office

Yet we keep popping back up, like dildos in a box. (Jack, was that his name?).

Or moths to a flame?

Suicide moth
with the brains of a doth
you are banging away at the screen
It is night time outside
and it's a full lunar tide
Whether you'll live remains to be seen
the rain's pouring down
on your face like a clown
makes you look like an eerie dark green
I peer at your face
right out there in space
and wonder why nature is harsh and so mean
you're banging away
with wings beating in fray
to the light you seem to be keen
why don't you give up
There is glass is in the cup
the knowledge of which surely you glean
but seemingly not
you don't seem to stop
that banging away at the screen
I bid you goodnight
and close blinds out of sight
of that light from which your life is so lean
you would think you would learn
light also can burn
and charcoal can tarnish the sheen
- Mayet


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/08/2019 2:37 am  

“the need for the clarification is explained by the issue known to exist between trumps VIII and XI, cards that signify Libra and Leo in the zodiac. When the 12 trumps signifying the zodiac are arranged according to the order dictated by the zodiac, the roman numbers on the two cards are out of order, a problem seen in Tarot decks dating to the 16th century.”

it's perfect


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sagus93
(@sagus93)
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Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 9
09/08/2019 4:36 am  

finally some fun 🙂

The rest of your essay is composed of you, yourself, trudging through several pages of symbols, correlation, and surfers

I believed that tarot is an encyclopedy of pictorial symbols and relations between them, my mistake! I will follow your example and use the deck to compose a dildo for Chronozon's ass. Because thats how the rest of your pompose speech looks to me.

Dont waste more words and emotions on me please, there is no value in it for neither of us so save yourself some precious time and get an icecream instead or something.


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sagus93
(@sagus93)
Member
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 9
09/08/2019 5:11 am  

Btw, "brothers", the books on tarot in last two thousand years were all pretty shitty, wouldn't you agree?
I mean - cmon! I read them all and it was all just bunch of guys trudging through symbols and their correlations.. whats wrong with people these days?


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Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1374
09/08/2019 5:32 am  

The nature of a worldling
attributing a something or other;
mining,
uncovering a Pan Dora;
Is !
a door ah ?
I sis mat ground
worlds emerging collide
http://www.babynamewizard.com/baby-name/girl/isadora


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1225
09/08/2019 2:47 pm  

@sagus93 :

Hullo! Belated welcome to the forum! (Please leave profanities at the door except for judicious purposes of emphasis)

Btw, “brothers”, the books on tarot in last two thousand years were all pretty shitty, wouldn’t you agree?
I'm only familiar with the last <500 years myself; what other books in the preceding period are you referring to?

I mean – cmon! I read them all and it was all just bunch of guys trudging through symbols and their correlations
Including old Crow, of course! But what would you be looking to see as an alternative?

.. whats wrong with people these days?
They've all got those old 'End of Times' blues?

N Joy


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sagus93
(@sagus93)
Member
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 9
09/08/2019 3:27 pm  

@Jamie

I mean – cmon! I read them all and it was all just bunch of guys trudging through symbols and their correlations

Including old Crow, of course! But what would you be looking to see as an alternative?

ask Crater Shitva, he is the one who based his whole criticism of my writing about tarot on the fact that I spent too much words talking about meaning of symbols. I am just being ironic and honestly, I have no idea.

His mobius strip theory about switching of time space which is already switched and how one should straighten up is indeed very mysterious and intriguing, some beyond abyss material indeed... where you can say just about anything, then contradict yourself and still get out of it making an impression you actually said something.

At this point I lost all interest of serious debate on this forum, I am just comming back for lulz and trolling so dont even try to behave or civilise me... next time I can bring some penis surgery photos or something, to finally get a ban and be done with this comedy.

If there is someone who has an actuall constructive criticism on actuall topic of my little "essay", drop me an email or add me on facebook or something, I am always happy to have a real talk. What is going on here is just couple of internet heroes in their struggle to feel superior... judges, prosecution and a court process of determining my human value? LOL. Who the hell you guys think you are?


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1004
09/08/2019 3:39 pm  

Btw, “brothers”, the books on tarot in last two thousand years were all pretty shitty, wouldn’t you agree?
I mean – cmon! I read them all and it was all just bunch of guys trudging through symbols and their correlations.. whats wrong with people these days?

Like Jamie, I'm puzzled by what books on Tarot that you have read which are earlier than the 16th century. The earliest I know of are two essays, "discorsi," in Italian, which explain the symbolism and meaning of the Tarot deck. They both date to around 1565. I published the original texts - one edited from manuscript for the first time - in 2010, as "con gli occhi et con l'intelletto: Explaining the Tarot in Sixteenth-Century Italy" ("con gli occhi et con l'intelletto" means "with the eyes and with the intellect," which is a quote from one of the essays). See here -

http://www.lulu.com/shop/ross-caldwell-and-thierry-depaulis-and-marco-ponzi/con-gli-occhi-et-con-lintelletto/paperback/product-23657214.html


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2048
09/08/2019 4:12 pm  

So often these prophets, sons of prophets, cypher-solvers, and other assorted Magisters pop up here, cast their pearls before us swine, and then get grumpy when we fail to bow down and worship.

This particular smug and self-important cuckoo-bird was an early harbinger of spring this year, and is back just as summer is winding down. Surely this is an important weather omen.


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1004
09/08/2019 4:15 pm  

I do hope he is a very early omen, as I do so enjoy the fine weather, even if the sun is where it was in early May.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2048
09/08/2019 4:23 pm  

Well, your "fine weather" in summer is our "there is no way i am going out in that" weather in much of the US in summer, and this year has been a scorcher til this week; now it is very nice.

He was very early in spring, so i think his return may mean summer has a bit left to it yet.

Maybe we could introduce sagus93 to Brother Boaba The Love- i think they might get along.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2134
09/08/2019 5:08 pm  

@sagus93
I too am here (in this particular thread only) for the 'lulz' as you say.
I love Thelema but I believe it is important to be 'like water,' flexible, and above all, enjoy having a good sense of humour.
You seem like you need to lighten up a bit!

Since you mentioned this is a salad bar, of which I was unaware, can you please pass the bacon bits? It ain't a real salad unless you got some meat in it....

I used to be a romaine kinda guy but now I am red lettuce all the way.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2134
09/08/2019 5:09 pm  

His post that I am responding to seems to have disappeared.

CHORONZONNNNNN


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2048
09/08/2019 5:47 pm  

One benefit of all this sun is that my corn is like 9' tall, just picked the first corn off 'em today for dinner tonight. And i need much bigger tomato cages, they are going wild, and would be 5' or taller if i could hold them up (yes have staked them). All my lettuce bolted in the heat and i have not yet re-planted.

Everything else steady as she goes: hops, herbs, 2 kinds of beans, peas, sunflowers, fall squash, zucchinis (which foreigners in their perversity call "courgettes"), and eggplants ("aubergines" to the Brits).

Back in the Max's Kansas City days, maybe 1980, i had a girlfriend from Queens, a hairdresser. I loved to make her say what color her hair was, due to her larger-than-life Queens accent: "aw-budge-JEAN". I have never had a girlfriend who described her hair as courgette-colored though some could have.

And peppers- forgot them. And strawberries and raspberries but they are done; the blackberries are coming soon, then pears in the fall

Also would like to add my simple awe at mayet's baby-deafened Pope this morning, which i have lost track of what thread it is in, but is impressively nutty and quite amusing, to saddos like me at least.


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1004
09/08/2019 6:00 pm  

@ignant666

Maybe we could introduce sagus93 to Brother Boaba The Love- i think they might get along.

Who is Brother Boaba The Love? Or, are you sure that if I really put my mind to it, I'd figure it out? If that is the case, I'm happy to puzzle over it a while.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2048
09/08/2019 6:03 pm  

There was a recent thread of disciples of fraudulent AC son, "Amado Crowley".

Brother Boaba was a very belligerent ex-disciple of "Mike", who told us he was "The Love", in between spewing vitriol (by which i do not mean V.I.T.R.I.O.L.).

It is fair to say that Brother Boaba did not take a shine to me. We cannot please everybody in this life.

Duh- the baby-deafened and very-probably-baby-eating Pope is right on the previous page of this thread. So very silly, and thank you for making this.


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1004
09/08/2019 6:09 pm  

There was a recent thread of disciples of fraudulent AC son, “Amado Crowley”.

Brother Boaba was a very belligerent ex-disciple of “Mike”, who told us he was “The Love”, in between spewing vitriol (by which i do not mean V.I.T.R.I.O.L.).

Ah, I remember that thread, but not the particulars. Thank you very much, I understand what you mean about these two potentially getting along.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 3779
09/08/2019 6:20 pm  

s93: Btw, “brothers”, the books on tarot in last two thousand years were all pretty shitty, wouldn’t you agree

Sorry, I cannot agree. What with the Tarot being "invented" in the 1600s, there is no basis for evaluating their "toiletness."

By the way, welcome back. You are now a Tulku, a "recognized (re)incarnation," and I will let up on "wasting words" (no emotional drain, so far) if you will stop with the toilet-reproduction dirty words.

s93: His [my] mobius strip theory about switching of time space which is already switched and how one should straighten up is indeed very mysterious and intriguing ...

The Mobius deal was Crowley's explanation, not mine. The time-space switcheroo was his idea, not mine (see "Kinks in Time," in Magick with(out) Tears. There is no "beyond the Abyss" stuff in my scientific re-sounding. "Straighten Up!" is both a military command and my advice to attain Liberation.

s93: At this point I lost all interest of serious debate on this forum, I am just comming back for lulz and trolling so dont even try to behave or civilise me… next time I can bring some penis surgery photos or something, to finally get a ban and be done with this comedy.

Hmmm. I see! Having now revealed your true nature, as a licensed physician I recommend you See a Doctor. You are displaying seriously degraded mental concepts, and you are becoming tenaciously aggressive. These are signs of mental and/or emotional illness. We will get the Christians from the Amado thread to pray for you.

s93: Who the hell you guys think you are?

We are the boys of LAShTAL U.
We don't smoke and we don't chew.
And we don't go with girls who do.


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
Tangin
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2048
09/08/2019 6:34 pm  

The Love was the last to cast his pearls before the lashtal Gadarenes, and had a similar reaction to the collective swill-rejection to the current case.

Our new surfin' pal will doubtless know this ritual chant and dance, which might almost be describing him: "Gremmies get all mashed-up, Inside!"

https://youtu.be/O_LJHQy-idM

See also this hymn to the Yoni, by the only royalty America has ever known, The Kang [SPOILER ALERT: (c)OTO MEMBERS NOT YET INITIATED TO THE IX SHOULD NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO WHICH DISCLOSES IMPORTANT ORDER SECRETS!]:

https://youtu.be/MjsVrneeXn4

{See also "The Oyster", TBOL ch.3}


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belmurru
(@belmurru)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 1004
09/08/2019 6:53 pm  

@Shiva

What with the Tarot being “invented” in the 1600s,

Just curious - why the scare quotes around "invented"? Not 1600s, btw, but 1400s, shortly before 1440 to be precise.

This thread has no cohesion (somebody invoked Coronzom), so it is probably not the place to have a decent discussion about Tarot, any aspect of it, but it was indeed invented, like any new game.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 3779
09/08/2019 8:00 pm  

bel: Just curious – why the scare quotes around “invented”?

Well, there's a rumor that it was "inherited" from AEgypt, but I have found no actual, historical reference for that claim.

Not 1600s, btw, but 1400s, shortly before 1440 to be precise.

Oh gads, pedantry, podiatry, and pedophilia! I have a glitch in my mentat. I have an inability to synchronize centuries with 1000s, without stopping to think, which is hurtful.
ie, the fifth century was the 400s.

To be honest, I have no clear insight into Tarot genesis (but I'm pretty good at reading them, or applying their conceptual identity to practical tasks.

Today, we have the Tree, the Atu, and the Tasks of the Grades. It's all synchronized in one great paradigm. From this conglomerate, I have found one, apparently accurate, historical reference, which I have included in my Taro book (which does not include speculation on Tarot or Chess development):

"The Tree is possibly of Ancient Aegyptian origin [unlikely], certainly of Hebrew Qabalistic correlation (even if designed by a catholic priest), and is definitely a part of the Western Magickal tradition."

Somewhere, I have a description of a Jesuit priest who "invented" the Tree of Life in order to understand biblical terms. Some say it was 1652. It has been grabbed by the Western Esoteric Brotherhood, and survives intact to this day, even if certain "paths" have been switched ... thus the title of this thread.

A quick reference brings up the following website, but it's clearly an anti-Christian site, with paranoia thrown in.

As to Tarot origination, I'll leave that in your capable hands, because you have historical insight in that matter. Let me rephrase my earlier comments from "1600s" to "the Middle Ages."

https://livingmagickally.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/the-tree-of-life-is-a-jesuit-plot/


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2134
09/08/2019 8:03 pm  

(somebody invoked Coronzom),

Guilty as charged yer honour. Please go lightly, guv.
I 'as a woife 'n' foive sprouts.

*scene change*
*Camera pans across barren desert wastes to a lone naked figure, male*

I am I. I have shut myself up from the spendthrifts, my gold is safe in my treasure-chamber, and I have made every living thing my concubine, and none shall touch them, save only I. And yet I am scorched, even while I shiver in the wind....my precious.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/08/2019 3:55 am  

ask Crater Shitva, he is the one who based his whole criticism of my writing about tarot on the fact that I spent too much words talking about meaning of symbols. I am just being ironic and honestly, I have no idea.

I sEE what you did there.. I have never asked Frater Shiva if he is Typhonian

what do you call a deer with no eyes and no legs and No penis ...? STILL no F*cking idea

Go easy on the honestly bit .. even truth can lie

@sagus93 .. personally i find you AFAF *shrugs Matter not Law is for all...
Sagus93 ... if you are real, your work will stand the test .... and you will endure .. AKA if you are really real then no-thing the boys can say to you will stop you from your work.. and the anger and frustration you feel needs addressing before rising .. or falling...
Shiva is the destroyer ... you have choices.. either be destroyed or transmute to create faster than anyone can destroy... dance the dance of kali ...

I mean – cmon! I read them all and it was all just bunch of guys trudging through symbols and their correlations
Including old Crow, of course! But what would you be looking to see as an alternative?

better still ask yourself and answer it from YOU if you ask others what they see, you will miss your own view on matters

The Crow Crone Mayhaps?

The Love was the last to cast his pearls before the lashtal Gadarenes, and had a similar reaction to the collective swill-rejection to the current case.

Stop casting me massur my job to cast what has been cast into a castcast recast... When ra is re MAAt is me -Maet

Gadarenes Zazarenes Lazarenes ....

We are the boys of LAShTAL U.
We don’t smoke and we don’t chew.
And we don’t go with girls who do.

oh hell no... chewing brings a fascinating rip tearing rendering with the fangs of the queenly lion king

here have some power


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/08/2019 6:14 am  

At this point I lost all interest of serious debate on this forum, I am just comming back for lulz and trolling so dont even try to behave or civilise me… next time I can bring some penis surgery photos or something, to finally get a ban and be done with this comedy.

If there is someone who has an actuall constructive criticism on actuall topic of my little “essay”, drop me an email or add me on facebook or something, I am always happy to have a real talk. What is going on here is just couple of internet heroes in their struggle to feel superior… judges, prosecution and a court process of determining my human value? LOL. Who the hell you guys think you are?

at this point I WILL call that you Sagus93 are as fake as fuck and a familiar pattern

1, leave cancel change profile and your done with it
2, Bans are easy just ask Pegasus

Who the hell you guys think you are?

I don't think they think I know they know ....I think..

Me personally I am a friendly funny little devil... not so spikey and my personal penis is in how many pieces of that stupid pi now? ..

This thread has no cohesion (somebody invoked Coronzom), so it is probably not the place to have a decent discussion about Tarot, any aspect of it, but it was indeed invented, like any new game.

My old business was BurnIT Solutions.. need a solution? Burn IT

well multi dimensionally laterally thinking on matters that can matter to anti matter about non matter as above so below


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sagus93
(@sagus93)
Member
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 9
10/08/2019 11:09 pm  

fake as fuck? you mean I had stolen my paintings (and everything else for that matter) from someone else, the essay was written by esoteric bullshit generator dot net, as I am inventing a fantasy novel by building a fake personality in hope that some strangers or internet will give me thumbs up. Mybe even my profile picture is someone else! 🙂 . You know what? You are totaly right. In truth, I am an 22 years old female gay porn actor who just lost her job and now follows "how to get rich on internet fast" 30 days programme. Its not going well btw.

As my previous post was deleted and I have no hope thise one will remain, this is rly the last time I write here, so kisses, hugs and bye bye. You are all very skilled at arguing on internet and putting down strangers, and what else is thelema about these days .) 🙂

Ps: familiar pattern? We are 3 pages of discussion away from my original post and so far there was not a single reaction, positive or negative, to neither of the two new cards I designed. The sole motivation of why I showed up here. But I already know I am a liar, fake adept, girl with beard, weather allegory, potty mouth and what not. Also, that music I like is horrible and the fact that I offer original art on my page is despicable. What other reaction to this would you expect? From anbody? Enlighten me please, so I can be less fake in the future 🙂 .The kind of talk I witnessed here is something I am really not used to... since I left pre-school I mean 🙂 .


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