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Tzaddi is "The Stars"?

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fraterphoebus
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Recently, I've been spending some time contemplating the apparent conundrum presented to us by Liber AL's:
"All these old letters of my book are aright; but Tzaddi is not the Star."

Crowley took this to mean that:
- The Golden Dawn's system of correspondences between the 22 Hebrew letters and Tarot Trumps was otherwise correct, but:
- The correspondence of Tzaddi to "The Star" was incorrect, and therefore needed to be switched with another (also incorrect) correspondence. He took Tzaddi's correct correspondence to be "The Emperor", reassigning its Heh to "The Star".

As others have since observed, this solution - though broadly embraced by the Thelemic milieu - is unsatisfactory for a number of reasons. Besides the awkward zodiacal "double loop" it requires (which I won't go into here), it also makes a liar of Nuit, who offers Tzaddi - The Star as the sole error in the "letters of my book". She does not say "Tzaddi is not the Star, nor is Heh the Emperor".

There are other ways this message can be read. What if it is not the correspondence, but the name of the Trump which Nuit is correcting?

This came to me last night as I was poring over my recently acquired Visconti-Sforza deck, a close-ish replica of the earliest known Tarot deck, commissioned by the Duke of Milan in the mid 15th Century. See it?


"The Stars".

Now I gotta say, the image here is from a slightly different edition than mine, which has small golden stars printed all over the figure's coat, presenting her more as a sky-mother archetype (i.e. Nuit) - and I don't know which is most faithful to the original design. However, both name the card as "The Stars".

I understand that the original cards did not have names printed on them and I'm yet to find any clear lines of evidence proving that this card would in fact have been understood by that title at the time of its original use - it's possible that it's just an idiosyncrasy of these editions (though it's curious that two different editions would both feature this quirk). If not though - if the card really was understood as "The Stars" in the earlier days of Tarot - that would provide a sublimely simple and satisfying alternative solution to Nuit's statement, and one with profound significance - more appropriate to her all-encompassing point of view, and a punt towards a more collective view of hope and progress rather than a reliance on Messianic heroes or prophets. This is bolstered by the connotations of the letter "Tzaddi" itself - a "Tzaddik" is a righteous and saintly person, even a spiritual master; in Jewish tradition, they are thought to be exceedingly rare. Not so, according to Nuit - all are righteous; all having the same right to do their Will.

Ironically, this would make Crowley's response - to give Tzaddi to "The Emperor" - about as far from her intended meaning as possible. Perhaps it was his own little joke to throw people off the scent.

Would love to know what others think and whether anyone has any additional information or insight to bring to bear on this - it may of course be spurious, but it's fun. 😉 


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @fraterphoebus

However, both name the card as "The Stars".

 

R. L. Gillis made the same observation over 20 years ago.

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @fraterphoebus

the awkward zodiacal "double loop" it requires (which I won't go into here), it also makes a liar of Nuit

The double loop is simply an explanation of how certain opposites get juxtapositioned as based on a naturally-occuring belty-looper that seems to occur in nature. It gets even worse when one applies this geo-principle to concepts like timelines or the procession of the Equinoxes.

Anyway, one can't really "not go into it here" on an AC site, where AC says the ribbon is the square deal.

The funnier thing is that QBL is a system for ordering the mindOthe cultures and vocations may not use Hebrew-English(-Greek?) QBL as their mental framework. For example, a scientist may live in a mental world that is defined by The Periodic Table of the Elements, while a musician might have a house framed with notes, harmonics, and bars.

Personally, I embraced the AC (Bennett, actually) version of QBL and found it helpful for decades in filing (memorizing) data (for work, and for medical licensing exams). I memorized the Star as He, running from Chokmah to Tiph. And I was happy to put the Emp as Tz, running along from Netzach to Yesod. I find these placements to be perfectly comfortable.

Now, of course, no interpretation of any concept or statement is going to make a liar out of Nuit. To make such an observation implies that you might be stumbling around in some cul-de-sac on the mental plane. Liber AL, and all AC's comments based thereon or therein that doc, are simply AC talking to himself in QBL lingo, and then explaining it to himself, and others, in his writings. But he is explaining the AC (his) QBL.

Guess what? AC, himself, in some exalted state, wrote Every Initiate must build their own QBL. So it doesn't matter what AC or Anybody says about any sphere or path - if one runs into a paradox or a ripple (or a twisted ribbon of space fabric), the only choice is to go in (or up) and see what conditions prevail - for your own QBL.

I suspect that you will get no satisfaction within this thread whereby somebody else (not me) explains the He-Tz twist and reallocation maneuver. This mind-bender (He-Tz) and other minor joys (such as the AL code puzzle cipher stoval) have been drawn out and hammered for well over a decade in various threads.

There is only One Star in Sight in the cleared (banished) inner realm. A properly executed ceremony in the wilderness will result in One Star in Sight as accounted for in the document of that same name.


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katrice
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Given that the first mention of any connection between the Trumps and the Hebrew alphabet didn't occur until about 300 years after the  Visconti-Sforza deck was created, having it be about the name rather than the letter correspondence makes more sense to me.


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Given that the first mention of any connection between the Trumps and the Hebrew alphabet didn't occur until about 300 years after the  Visconti-Sforza deck was created ...

Okay. If you want to wipe out centuries of mistaken belief in the Egyptian origin concept (of the Atu, not the letters), then we can do that, and then let me toss in the whole matter from a different perspective ...

the path from Chokmah to Tiph is The Emp. Sure, that fits. But wait. The Emp is holding and orb/cross doo-dad that signifies Dominion over the lower planes. The Emp also is the "power" (dominion) of dhyana over the (lower) mind. I like the Emp down at the Netzach-Yesod train track.

So that leaves The Star on the Chokmah-Tiph track, which is right-on according to my "vision" of how the Will overshadows the Abstract (Higher) Mind.

I see that I can run on, and on, for a long time with more details of how I see the deal, which is not necessarily how any other person (including AC) might see it. So I call a "STOP" and suggest that anyone or everyone get on with their own HGA work, so that they might write their own (dictated to me) Book of their own Law, leading to the revelation of their own QBL, which allows their lower mind to run smoothly so as to not distract the real work under way.

I wonder if that was clear enough?

 


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fraterphoebus
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@herupakraath
Ahah, I was wondering whether anyone else had already spotted this - figured someone probably had, but couldn't find any references (it's a pretty niche topic, to be fair to Google!). Do you know where Gillis makes this observation? Would love to know more.

@shiva
Yep, it's all subjective - I'm not searching for the "correct" correspondences on the assumption that such a thing actually exists and is hiding under a rock somewhere. As @katrice points out there was no systematic link drawn between Tarot & Qabalah until the 18th century, furthermore the 22 path tree of life which we today recognise as emblematic of Qabalah simply didn't exist circa 1450 - nor had any of the early Kabbalistic writings yet made their way into Latin, so few in Christendom would have been aware of it. Having said that, I'm personally persuaded that the Visconti-Sforza does likely contain intentional Hermetic symbolism (just look at The Moon's belt strings) despite pre-dating the earliest Latin translations of the Corpus, so I'm keeping an open mind.

Personally I prefer my correspondences to have a clear symbolic resonance and be justifiable by tradition, and I find the Golden Dawn's disregard for the long-established (since Sefer Yetzirah!) grouping of the letters into 3 mothers, 7 doubles, and 12 singles (for horizontal, vertical, and diagonal paths respectively) in favour of putting them into mere alephbetical order too egregious to ignore, and possibly an intentional blind.


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Okay. If you want to wipe out centuries of mistaken belief in the Egyptian origin concept (of the Atu, not the letters), then we can do that,

I would prefer that.  😊 

the path from Chokmah to Tiph is The Emp. Sure, that fits. But wait. The Emp is holding and orb/cross doo-dad that signifies Dominion over the lower planes. The Emp also is the "power" (dominion) of dhyana over the (lower) mind. I like the Emp down at the Netzach-Yesod train track.

According to Bardon, the Emperor is also the Alchemist. 

 

So that leaves The Star on the Chokmah-Tiph track, which is right-on according to my "vision" of how the Will overshadows the Abstract (Higher) Mind.

In terms of UPG I'm sure it works, and Crowley's mind already had that model in it to work with, so it would be translated in terms he already understood. I'd never argue that people don't get results from this, Pathworking and such is a thing.  My argument has been for a different approach not as dependent on the Hebrew correspondences that only came in to being 3 centuries after the creation of the tarot and seem based completely on a coincidence of number. 

 

  So I call a "STOP" and suggest that anyone or everyone get on with their own HGA work, so that they might write their own (dictated to me) Book of their own Law, leading to the revelation of their own QBL, which allows their lower mind to run smoothly so as to not distract the real work under way.

 

Which we should be doing anyway.

 

Except for the part about dictating it to you of course.  😉 

 

I wonder if that was clear enough?

 

I think so!

 

Posted by: @fraterphoebus

Having said that, I'm personally persuaded that the Visconti-Sforza does likely contain intentional Hermetic symbolism (just look at The Moon's belt strings) despite pre-dating the earliest Latin translations of the Corpus, so I'm keeping an open mind.

 

True. For one thing, Ficino's Academy wasn't even founded until 1462, a little over a decade after the Pierpont-Morgan version of the Visconti-Sforza was produced. 

 


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fraterphoebus
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True. For one thing, Ficino's Academy wasn't even founded until 1462, a little over a decade after the Pierpont-Morgan version of the Visconti-Sforza was produced.  

Yep, although the Asclepius had been around for a while and it was known that other texts existed, even if they weren't widely available to western European scholars until after the fall of Constantinople. Nor do we know with confidence that the Visconti-Sforza decks were in fact the earliest; given that playing cards had only fairly recently come across from the Arab world (which hadn't forgotten Hermes Trismegistus aka Idris at all), it's conceivable that they might also have had picture decks which influenced the early Triomphe decks. But this is pure speculation, of course.


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herupakraath
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Posted by: @fraterphoebus

Do you know where Gillis makes this observation? Would love to know more.

The first time that I know of was in 1999, during The Holy Cram/Thelemic Cram verse by verse discussions of Liber Legis. It was held using one of the online groups that were available then, before Google Groups appeared.

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @fraterphoebu

Yep, although the Asclepius had been around for a while and it was known that other texts existed, even if they weren't widely available to western European scholars until after the fall of Constantinople. Nor do we know with confidence that the Visconti-Sforza decks were in fact the earliest; given that playing cards had only fairly recently come across from the Arab world (which hadn't forgotten Hermes Trismegistus aka Idris at all), it's conceivable that they might also have had picture decks which influenced the early Triomphe decks. But this is pure speculation, of course.

The earliest I've seen cited as an ancestor is the "Gods and Birds" deck of Besozzo and Tortona, which predates the Pierpont-Morgan by a few decades.  It's definitely not "tarot" as modern people think of it, though. 


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fraterihsan
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The contention I've had for a while now and I still wonder, is whether the symbol in the MS is actually Tzaddi at all, because it is an incredibly oddly shaped one if it actually is. It looks more like a Serpent/Snake than the Hebrew letter.

"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - Liber Legis 2:58
"To Me do ye reverence! to me come ye through tribulation of ordeal, which is bliss." - Liber Legis 3:62


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threefold31
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @fraterphoebus

Do you know where Gillis makes this observation? Would love to know more.

The first time that I know of was in 1999, during The Holy Cram/Thelemic Cram verse by verse discussions of Liber Legis. It was held using one of the online groups that were available then, before Google Groups appeared.

 

Dwtw

That's correct, it was during Holycram.

I still think that it is one of only two possible solutions to the status of Tzaddi in re: the Major Arcana.

Since Nuit says "ALL these old letters are aright", then the way to solve it is to change the name of the card. And I think either The Stars, (or even better The Galaxy) would be an appropriate title. And I don't claim to be the first to come up with the idea, but I did come up with it independently.

I will claim to be the first to devise the other solution, which is simply this:

Tzaddi is not the Star - Tzaddi sofit is the Star.

Tzaddi sofit, the final form of Tzaddi, is the same letter as Tzaddi, only having a different value, being 900 instead of 90. It's drawn a little differently, but it is still the same letter. The analogy would be with English letters. A capital 'T' and a lower-case 't' are both the letter T, just drawn differently.

So what is the purpose of the change? Two main reasons. Firstly, 900 is also the sum of the vertex angles of a regular heptagon. Within that heptagon are drawn the seven pointed Star of Venus and the Star of Babalon. Both of these stars are mentioned by the Prophet in his description of the Star Atu, and painted by his Artist Executant. These could be the Stars referred to in a purported name change. They are part of the purposeful design of the card. And they are drawn within the confines of a polygon whose perimeter angles are 900° which echoes the value of Tzaddi sofit as 900.

Secondly, if Tzaddi sofit is the letter of the Star, then the value of the letters on the 22 majors is increased from 1495 to 2305, whose only factors are the prime numbers 5 and 461. Now you add the factors together and get her name: 5 + 461 = 466 = NUIT in Hebrew.

That maneuver, in turn, marks the 22 Majors as "her book", as she claims it to be. Using Tzaddi sofit is the only way to change the letter without changing the letter.

 

Litlluw

RLG


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herupakraath
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I'll add that in order to understand why Tzaddi is not The Star, one must also understand how and why the Empress and the Hierophant are combined to equal eleven, neither of which have anything to do with traditional Qabalah.

 


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katrice
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"The Stars". 

 

 
Octava Sphera from the Tarocchi of Mantegna

 
 
 
 
 

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Shiva
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Yep. It's "Stars" all right.


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Yep. It's "Stars" all right.

Which is what I imagine the angel as thinking.  😉 

 

It was the first tarot-related image I could think of that addresses the celestial spheres as a concept unto themselves.


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herupakraath
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@katrice

The letters seen on the image posted, predate the association of the Hebrew letters with the Tarot by 400 years or so. Is it not obvious which letters are the oldest?

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @herupakraath

@katrice

The letters seen on the image posted, predate the association of the Hebrew letters with the Tarot by 400 years or so. Is it not obvious which letters are the oldest?

 

I am well aware of that, and of the origin of the association of the Hebrew letters with the tarot, and have expressed my opinion on that. I was just running with the idea of the line in AL possibly referring to the name rather than the letter.  I wasn't trying to make a point, just share an image. 

But, to be fair, the Mantegna isn't really tarot as we know it, more tarot adjacent. 


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gurugeorge
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Inspired by this thread (interesting idea!), I went on a little hunt re. the Tarot.  I remembered reading some of the philosopher Michael Dummett's deflating book on the origins of the Tarot years go (he thought it was just a game), but it turns out the real origins are also quite interesting.  The young count Visconti who commissioned and/or designed the first set (now lost IIRC) was bang into astrology, as it turns out. 

One interesting theory (by one of those seemingly ubiquitous modern scholars who's wangled an academic position studying occultism, lucky bitch 🙂 ) is that the Trumps were more or less (in play) a dynamic picture of the ups and downs of the Visconti family's fortunes, using several sets of interrelated symbols common in culture at the time.  Which makes perfect sense really - the ups and downs of life, how one thing trumps another, etc.

Interestingly, a philosopher who's not an occultist, who knew Dummett, points out very fairly I thought, that Dummett, in his rush to clean out the occult rubbish, dismisses the prevalence of occult and hermetic stuff just generally floating around in culture at the time.  If the good Count was into astrology, it's not too much of a stretch to think he was aware of some astrology-adjacent things too.  And his successor Sforza, commissioner of the classic, beautiful set, was also into astrology!  So Sun, Moon and Star(s) probably definitely refer to astrologers (the characters on the cards) and astrology, and therefore, in another sense, fortune.

So basically yes, just a game, but a game with a meaning that's actually quite close to the meaning we give it - something to do with the many factors, quirks, ups and downs that affect a life.

Sorry, rambling, this is probably old hat to everyone here. As you were! 🙂


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Shiva
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

Sorry, rambling, this is probably old hat to everyone here. As you were!

I have heard about and read about  the origins of Tarot and, yes, it's all an old crown hat - even though I never studied that era - but I appreciate the fortune/game details of the early "inventors."


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katrice
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@gurugeorge 

 

Robert M Place's Tarot: History, Symbolism, and Divination manages to keep a good balance between documented history and magickal interpretations. 

 

There was a lot more variance in the early days of the tarot, including multiple orderings of the trumps, different naming and images of some trumps, and some trumps that never made the cut when standardization began.  A real eye opener for those only familiar with the modern form. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

... when standardization began.

When was that? (Exactly or generally). Was there any particular persona(e) who said, "Enough of this Chaos! Let there be order in the decks!" ... ?


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @katrice

... when standardization began.

When was that? (Exactly or generally). Was there any particular persona(e) who said, "Enough of this Chaos! Let there be order in the decks!" ... ?

No particular person, mass production was what started it. The Marseilles pattern, created around 1650, became the standard.  


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gurugeorge
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@Katrice

Thanks for the reference!

It's a tricky thing isn't it, when you pin your hopes and dreams on some historical interpretation.  I mean, what if one day someone discovers a cache of something very much like Tarot cards in Egypt - then poor old Dummett would be rolling in his grave!  

But it really does seem on present evidence like it all goes back to the Visconti-Sforza pack, or only just shortly before.  As it was a game, one might expect there to be subsequent variation, but that original pack does, for all the world, look like it's imbued at least a bit with occult symbolism (in the sense of the stuff that was floating around at the time, you know, what Yates talks about).

(On the "don't pin your hopes on history" - it's also relevant to Christianity. As a "mythicist" I'm very dubious about a historical Jesus, and if there wasn't one, then the idea that Christians had for hundreds of years, that the gospels are historical proofs of something, goes out the window.  But then on the other hand, on that interpretation Jesus always was an "imaginary friend" in almost the same sense as he is for the Christian hicks who are the objects of rationalist vituperation today! 🙂 )


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

The Marseilles pattern, created around 1650, became the standard. 

Thank you. This [1650] provides my QBL with a static reference point for when the Atu came out of Chaos to say, "Here I Am!"

I consulted my data and found that the World Population was estimated at 500 million. Also, this is the year that some wit calculated (from The Book) that the world was created in 4000 BC - This later got modified to 4004, and it was the reason I decided not to pursue the "religious path."

All this has changed (since 50 of the 17th century. The world pop is now 16x [1650]. Except for flatlanders, everybody knows the 4000/4004 was one of those faked QBL experiments. I left religion behind and choose Atu instead. Today Atu is only barred from universal agreement by a Tzaddi and its extensions.

Posted by: @gurugeorge

It's a tricky thing isn't it, when you pin your hopes and dreams on some historical interpretation. 

No shinola there. It is best if one has no hopes or dreams, but unlike a clod, if one is able to reduce their importance to zero, and fully accept what is (not what can be), then the wu has found its wei.

 

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @gurugeorge

@Katrice

Thanks for the reference!

My pleasure!  I can't say that the book would hold a lot of shocking revelations for anyone who's been delving in to the subject for a while, but it's the best I know for approaching the historical aspects from the view of the practitioner, and it does a good job of putting a lot of the essential points between one set of covers.

It's a tricky thing isn't it, when you pin your hopes and dreams on some historical interpretation.  I mean, what if one day someone discovers a cache of something very much like Tarot cards in Egypt - then poor old Dummett would be rolling in his grave!  

 

 

True, but there hasn't been any verifiable evidence found anywhere yet.  Still, that's the risk we take. 

 

I think the "method of science, the aim of religion" also has value when applied to historical research.    

But it really does seem on present evidence like it all goes back to the Visconti-Sforza pack, or only just shortly before. 

 

As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, the "Gods and Birds" deck precedes the Pierpont Morgan, and is one of the earliest known antecedents of the tarot.

 

As it was a game, one might expect there to be subsequent variation, but that original pack does, for all the world, look like it's imbued at least a bit with occult symbolism (in the sense of the stuff that was floating around at the time, you know, what Yates talks about).

Ficino's Academy didn't just spring in to existence out of nowhere, there was an ongoing interest in the upper social classes.

 

. As a "mythicist" I'm very dubious about a historical Jesus, and if there wasn't one, then the idea that Christians had for hundreds of years, that the gospels are historical proofs of something, goes out the window.

I'm open to a euhemeristic origin but it could easily have been a composite of multiple people, and there were other prominent teachers around the same time too.

Posted by: @shiva

Thank you. This [1650] provides my QBL with a static reference point for when the Atu came out of Chaos to say, "Here I Am!"

The Gods and Birds deck was created around the 1420s, while the Pierpont Morgan dates to around 1451, with divergent things like the Minchiate and the Mantegna appearing around 1465-66. . 

 


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katrice
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I thought I'd add a little more to this discussion.

Besides there being no verified evidence of the association of the Hebrew Alphabet with the trumps existing before de Gebellin and de Mellet, and there being a number of variant and renamed trumps before the tarot was standardized, like Jupiter, Juno, Bacchus, the Spanish Captain, the Four Moors, etc, with some decks like the Minchiate adding multiple additional trumps, as I mentioned on another thread, there were a number of variant orderings of the trumps too.

Some decks have Temperance following the Heirophant

or the Fool following the World

or transpose Judgement and the World, or transpose the Wheel and the Hermit

Justice preceded the World in some decks, or appeared between the Lovers and the Chariot.

And some have Temperance, Justice, and Strength appearing in that order

while some transpose the Lovers and Chariot 

and the Priestess appears in position 3 or 4 in some decks.

The Sicilian pack has Sicilian  Temperance, Strength, Justice, Lovers, Chariot, Wheel, Hanged Man, Hermit, and World in that order preceding Death, with The Ship replacing the Devil and the Tower being depicted intact. In this ordering the Fool follows the World, with the Beggar appearing at the beginning of the trumps. 

So Alan Moore didn't invent the Beggar as he claimed. 😉 

The Rosewald, if the cards were supposed to appear in the order that the only existing uncut sheet has them in, has Lovers, Temperance, Justice, Strength, Chariot, Hermit, Hanged Man and Wheel occurring in that order.

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

while some transpose the Lovers and Chariot 

Whoa! I could go for that one. Never mind my thoughts on the matter, as I'm retired from QBL, Mental Stress Chess, and re-arranging the Deck.

 


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David Dom Lemieux
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This is a blasphemous heathen thread isn't it?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

This is a blasphemous heathen thread isn't it?

Totally blasphemous heathenry. 

 

But some people like a little history in their magick. 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

This is a blasphemous heathen thread isn't it?

Blast-feemee at Hod is only a minor Infraction of the Law, so it's okay. No burnings, dunkings, racks, hot pokers - that sort of thing (reserved for Arthwaite, RTC, and false pretenders).


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

This is a blasphemous heathen thread isn't it?

Blast-feemee at Hod is only a minor Infraction of the Law, so it's okay. No burnings, dunkings, racks, hot pokers - that sort of thing (reserved for Arthwaite, RTC, and false pretenders).

I'm really not sure how verified facts (very Hodian) could be seriously considered blasphemy anyway. 😉 

Now, when you get in to the earliest known divination interpretations, like the Pratesi's Cartomancer interpretations, you see more variance even in the meanings, which also weren't consistent throughout history. 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

... which also weren't consistent throughout history. 

I see a pattern emerging here, but is a pattern of a changing reality ... wherein my Tarot reading has different meanings in different time zones (like decades or centuries). 

Thank Perdurabo that he stabilized the shifting sands cards so that (some of) we could have a sturdy set of timbers and balls to use in our system of organizing our mind(s). If we had tried it early than, say, Bennett, we would have been as confused as Arthwaite and Yeats. Even today, our mental timbers (the paths) are being trembled by Tzaddi not being the Star, or Stars, but [gasp] other changes are being tossed around.

This will not matter for those who have already built the Tree, stabilized it with Glee, climbed it up high - Whee!  and burned it all down - Hee-hee!

 


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

I see a pattern emerging here, but is a pattern of a changing reality ... wherein my Tarot reading has different meanings in different time zones (like decades or centuries). 

Thank Perdurabo that he stabilized the shifting sands cards so that (some of) we could have a sturdy set of timbers and balls to use in our system of organizing our mind(s).

Well, strictly speaking, mass production of decks started that with establishing the Marseille pattern becoming the standard at the time, and much later the Waite-Smith defining modern tarot as we know it. 

 

Even today, our mental timbers (the paths) are being trembled by Tzaddi not being the Star, or Stars, but [gasp] other changes are being tossed around.

I prefer the theory that Tzaddi not being the Star is about the name rather than Hebrew letter attribution, given the history of the attributions.  Other changes become less dramatic in light of the patterns we know today not representing some mythic original tarot but rather being something that began to take shape a couple of centuries after the first tarot decks came in to being. 

 


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Posted by: @katrice

and much later the Waite-Smith defining modern tarot as we know it. 

Right. I never had any gripes about the Waite deal. He (Edwin Arthwaite) and he (Allan bennett) both were in the G.D. and used the same basic notes. Crowley merely adopted the Bennett Tables, while writing vilifying novels about Waite, which only left the final sustitution of "Tzaddi is not the Star."

"As we know it" is cool and it works. It is now under pressure to change, much like the fill/kill aberration.

 


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Posted by: @katrice

I prefer the theory that Tzaddi not being the Star is about the name rather than Hebrew letter attribution, given the history of the attributions.  Other changes become less dramatic in light of the patterns we know today not representing some mythic original tarot but rather being something that began to take shape a couple of centuries after the first tarot decks came in to being. 

 

Tzaddi is 'the fish hook', the path on the TOL that connects the Yesodic generative sex-force and how it relates the the Netzachian devotional desire force so in effect this is about controlling and raising instinctive energies via a raja-yoga fish- hook process on the approach to the HGA.  The Star ATU does not 'explain' this whereas The (martial warring) Emperor ATU does.  Maybe try and dig out what esteemed occult scholars (such as Jim Eshelman) have to say about why Tzaddi is not the Star.  Start with Crowley's holy poem Liber Tzaddi and see how it relates to the connection between those two Sephirah in terms of the ironing out of conflict and war, the  balancing of opposites for the aspirant who is learning to control and raise animal energy via pranayama, asana and raja yoga.   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva

Right. I never had any gripes about the Waite deal. He (Edwin Arthwaite) and he (Allan bennett) both were in the G.D. and used the same basic notes. Crowley merely adopted the Bennett Tables, while writing vilifying novels about Waite, which only left the final sustitution of "Tzaddi is not the Star."

Indeed, the Waite-Smith deck did set the standard. Tarot today would be very different without it. 

Smith drew at least some inspiration from the Sola Busca deck, the first to include full illustrations on the pips, rather than images of the suit symbols. 

"As we know it" is cool and it works. It is now under pressure to change, much like the fill/kill aberration.

As we know it pending any potential further information.

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Tzaddi is 'the fish hook', the path on the TOL that connects the Yesodic generative sex-force and how it relates the the Netzachian devotional desire force so in effect this is about controlling and raising instinctive energies via a raja-yoga fish- hook process on the approach to the HGA.  The Star ATU does not 'explain' this whereas The (martial warring) Emperor ATU does.  Maybe try and dig out what esteemed occult scholars (such as Jim Eshelman) have to say about why Tzaddi is not the Star

I am aware of these things, and of a number of theories, including the one that the symbol is not Tzaddi, and that the phrase should be "Tzaddi is not, The Star". I also have respect for Eshelman, his book on the A:.A:. in particular has been a huge influence on me. I am also familiar with all of the Class A works. 

That said, how does this stand up to the idea that the basis for the connection between the tarot and the Hebrew alphabet is just that two guys in the 1700s decided that since there were 22 letters and 22 trumps that they had to be connected?  Or that there was little in the way of standardization in the ordering of the trumps in the earlier years of the tarot?

 

 


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Posted by: @katrice

... pending any potential further information.

Yes. Further info needs to be accompanied by "proof" of some sort. I am considering mounting a campaign to switch the Lovers and their Chariot, as mentioned by yourself. It will be the KatShiv deck, and it will also reveal The Heru Toy (renamed to avoid phoney TradeMark claim altercations). It will be found in Atu XX. All this, and more, but first we must wait for RTC to befowl himself, and The End of the World to end.

Posted by: @katrice

I am aware of these things, and of a number of theories ...

Please allow the concept of direct perception. That is, one dons their astral ride and actually take a trip down these paths that are under consideration for transposition. I mean, if we're to build our own QBL, then each one has to decide which is what. Yes, they can buy into someone else's belief system, and that might work. I personally, bought into the switcheroo cited in AL and promoted (switched) by Therion and the Mobius Company, Ltd.

However, my own direct experience of these paths tells me that the quality of each is so similar to the other that there is indeed a lot of room for mixing the cards,, confusing the paths, and maybe mis-spelling The Lost Word (which Crowley found and gave to any III*).

Posted by: @katrice

That said, how does this stand up to the idea that the basis for the connection between the tarot and the Hebrew alphabet is just that two guys in the 1700s decided that since there were 22 letters and 22 trumps that they had to be connected?

I would agree with these fellows. I don't know that I would agree with their attributions. The historical changes you cite indicate that other people might not agree with the original "two-guy" correlation.

Frankly, I am overfedup with the Hebrew alphabeta (alephbeth). I am happy to apply the English equivalents and ride Anglicized. The only reason we are burdened with the alephbeth is because it's Bible-rooted (probably more Torah) and Christian scholars ( and Mystery Orders) needed that Jesus-Bible base because they were living in a Jesus Netzach Culture ... and why would they go study heathen Chinese?

Posted by: @katrice

Or that there was little in the way of standardization in the ordering of the trumps in the earlier years of the tarot?

Oh, yeah. Given time, nothing ends up like it started. 


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Posted by: @shiva

Yes. Further info needs to be accompanied by "proof" of some sort. I am considering mounting a campaign to switch the Lovers and their Chariot, as mentioned by yourself. It will be the KatShiv deck,

Why, thank you.  😊 

 

and it will also reveal The Heru Toy (renamed to avoid phoney TradeMark claim altercations).

Which will undoubtedly get released before RTC's.

 

 

It will be found in Atu XX.

A good place for it.

 

All this, and more, but first we must wait for RTC to befowl himself,  

That should give us more than enough time.

 

Please allow the concept of direct perception. That is, one dons their astral ride and actually take a trip down these paths that are under consideration for transposition. I mean, if we're to build our own QBL, then each one has to decide which is what.

 

UPG has its place, as long as it doesn't get confused with VPG. 

 

However, my own direct experience of these paths tells me that the quality of each is so similar to the other that there is indeed a lot of room for mixing the cards,, confusing the paths, and maybe mis-spelling The Lost Word (which Crowley found and gave to any III*).

I would definitely agree with that.

 

I would agree with these fellows. I don't know that I would agree with their attributions.

 

Even though their linking the trumps with the Hebrew alphabet has about as much logic and evidence to it as others' attempted to say that the tarot is based on the Runes?  

 

The historical changes you cite indicate that other people might not agree with the original "two-guy" correlation.

The connection with the Hebrew alphabet occurred three centuries after the first known decks were created, and the changes I mentioned predate De Gebelin and de Mellet's writings by some years, if not decades or centuries in some cases. 

 

The only reason we are burdened with the alephbeth is because it's Bible-rooted (probably more Torah) and Christian scholars ( and Mystery Orders) needed that Jesus-Bible base because they were living in a Jesus Netzach Culture ... and why would they go study heathen Chinese?

Not to mention the synthesis that formed Hermeticism drew some of those elements in as well. The Tree of Life itself is essentially little different in function from any of the other emanationist models of the time.  

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @shiva

why would they go study heathen Chinese?

Katrice replies: Not to mention the synthesis that formed Hermeticism drew some of those elements in as well. The Tree of Life itself is essentially little different in function from any of the other emanationist models of the time.  

Let me answer my own question: The Chinese were busy studing the  Ching since very long ago (circa 26th-26th century BC [Before Chin - Emperor Chin] ). The Western scholars and game players did not study Chinese systems probably because the heathen texts were not available. Didn't Evans-Wentz do the (first popular) translations of the heretical docs in the 1800s?

It seems like it took AC to correlate the trigrams to the spheres.

Let me know if I'm wrong about Evans-W or AC ... or both.

 


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Posted by: @katrice
 

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Tzaddi is 'the fish hook', the path on the TOL that connects the Yesodic generative sex-force and how it relates the the Netzachian devotional desire force so in effect this is about controlling and raising instinctive energies via a raja-yoga fish- hook process on the approach to the HGA.  The Star ATU does not 'explain' this whereas The (martial warring) Emperor ATU does.  Maybe try and dig out what esteemed occult scholars (such as Jim Eshelman) have to say about why Tzaddi is not the Star

I

That said, how does this stand up to the idea that the basis for the connection between the tarot and the Hebrew alphabet is just that two guys in the 1700s decided that since there were 22 letters and 22 trumps that they had to be connected?  Or that there was little in the way of standardization in the ordering of the trumps in the earlier years of the tarot?

 

 

Well sacred numerology usually is connected isn't it?  YHVH apparently spoke those letters into existence into a consecutive sequence like A to Z.   There is a generative yin yang with offspring reflected four times or five if you count Assiah Malkuth.  This makes 10 forces,  logically connect them all up and you have 22 paths.   The ATU were probably derived from the same source as the Hebrew alphabet/ alef beta.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

YHVH apparently spoke those letters into existence into a consecutive sequence like A to Z.

This "apparently" assumption falls under "Unproven Claims," and is a bed-fellow with RTC and Heru...  No proof. Just rumor. YHVH was never portrayed as "the creator" or as the Hebrew equivalent of Brahma. Elohim ("the gods") was/were the creator tribe. YHVH may, or may not, have been one of them.

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

 The ATU were probably derived from the same source as the Hebrew alphabet/ alef beta.

The basic, early definition of a SuperString (known to metaphysicians as The Monad, and known to Thelemites as quite a few things under the Kether correspondences) was "a point without dimensions [no height, width, depth] that oscillates [vibrates] in ten (10) or twenty-two (22) dimensions. 

Wow!  When I first read that, back in 1989, I was immediately impressed with the significance. You are pursuing the same concept, looking for an underlying code, vibration, or basis for the Tree being :invented" in the first place. It is more or less described in the 10/22 definition ... not that there's anything practical to take to the bank (while laughing).

 

 


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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

YHVH apparently spoke those letters into existence into a consecutive sequence like A to Z.

This "apparently" assumption falls under "Unproven Claims," and is a bed-fellow with RTC and Heru...  No proof. Just rumor.

You honestly think that i think that YHVH is real?  It's  a very convenient metaphor for what is, what is is the undeniable polarity that emerges in Nature and 'a third' factor is produced and the process is repeated.  If you were to give me time I could take any organization anywhere in the cosmos from biological systems to how McDonalds international works to how the functions of a computer come together and I could make a convincing case for how all of these processes conform to the principles inherent in the 3 Pillar's 10 Sephirah and their 22 interrelational paths.    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Posted by: @shiva

Let me answer my own question: 

I'm sorry, I thought your question was rhetorical

 The Western scholars and game players did not study Chinese systems probably because the heathen texts were not available. Didn't Evans-Wentz do the (first popular) translations of the heretical docs in the 1800s?

I believe that is so.

 

It seems like it took AC to correlate the trigrams to the spheres.

And his follower Dadaji Mahendranath went on to do some interesting work with the trigrams too.

 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Well sacred numerology usually is connected isn't it?  YHVH apparently spoke those letters into existence into a consecutive sequence like A to Z.   There is a generative yin yang with offspring reflected four times or five if you count Assiah Malkuth.  This makes 10 forces,  logically connect them all up and you have 22 paths.   The ATU were probably derived from the same source as the Hebrew alphabet/ alef beta.

But no evidence of that exists anywhere.  Three centuries of tarot before de Gebelin and de Mellet and not one reference linking the two. Nothing from any other Hermetic or Kabbalistic scholar, nothing from Ficino's Academy, nothing from Agrippa, not one word.  And no rationale from de Gebelin and de Mellet given aside from there being 22 of both.   I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I want evidence.  The method of science, the aim of religion should apply to history too.

 

I'm not dismissing the viability or legitimacy of results derived from connecting the two, but, as Shiva implied, the paths are broad enough to encompass the tarot, I just have yet to see proof of any historical connection. 

And again, what of the variations in ordering, cards, meanings before standardization?   The only reason that tarot took the form we know know was because a particular pattern, the Marseilles, was mass produced, there was no discovery of any "true" pattern. Even the attribution of the elements, planets and zodiac were later additions, with decks like the Minchiate having additional trumps for the elements and zodiac.  

 

Posted by: @shiva

"a point without dimensions [no height, width, depth] that oscillates [vibrates] in ten (10) or twenty-two (22) dimensions. 

Wow!  When I first read that, back in 1989, I was immediately impressed with the significance. You are pursuing the same concept, looking for an underlying code, vibration, or basis for the Tree being :invented" in the first place

 

Science catching up with the emanationist models.  😀

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

If you were to give me time I could take any organization anywhere in the cosmos from biological systems to how McDonalds international works to how the functions of a computer come together and I could make a convincing case for how all of these processes conform to the principles inherent in the 3 Pillar's 10 Sephirah and their 22 interrelational paths.    

 

See my comment, derived from Shiva's, regarding broad paths. 

 

 

 


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Posted by: @katrice

See my comment, derived from Shiva's, regarding broad paths. 

To analize further, with agony, let it be known that I specifically had in mind the Star and the Emp. They may look different as cards, but they are so almost identical in the tunnel(s) itself/themselves that one could get confused.


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Posted by: @katrice
 

But no evidence of that exists anywhere.  Three centuries of tarot before de Gebelin and de Mellet and not one reference linking the two. Nothing from any other Hermetic or Kabbalistic scholar, nothing from Ficino's Academy, nothing from Agrippa, not one word.  And no rationale from 

Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

If you were to give me time I could take any organization anywhere in the cosmos from biological systems to how McDonalds international works to how the functions of a computer come together and I could make a convincing case for how all of these processes conform to the principles inherent in the 3 Pillar's 10 Sephirah and their 22 interrelational paths.    

See my comment, derived from Shiva's, regarding broad paths. 

Fair enough,  chaos magicians are going to love this.  Make your own magical alphabet and Tarot.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Make your own magical alphabet and Tarot.

Although there have been many inclinations and admonitions mentioned regarding how one must figure out the inconsistencies for themselves, there has not been any advice given that suggests one must burn all their cards and books, and start from scratch (with the Chicken and the egg).

However, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so


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katrice
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Make your own magical alphabet and Tarot.

Although there have been many inclinations and admonitions mentioned regarding how one must figure out the inconsistencies for themselves, there has not been any advice given that suggests one must burn all their cards and books, and start from scratch (with the Chicken and the egg).

Done the right way, this would be what you referred to as building your own QBL.    

 

Stephen Mace, in Stealing the Fire From Heaven outlines a process of creating special sigils as a means of mapping your personal magickal universe, sigilizing everything in your system with unique personal sigils that have a tie to the deeper levels of your consciousness, like Spare's more advanced methods.  This can be an initiatory working unto itself.  

 

 


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Shiva
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Posted by: @katrice

Done the right way, this would be what you referred to as building your own QBL.

I'm not sure what the "right" way would be - what with all this LH stuff floating around and me suggesting burning AL - but here's how I did it, and I actually advise people to do it this way. It's simple ...

1. Memorize the Tables one finds significant in 777.

2. Adjust Atu IV and Atu XVII until one is no longer puzzled. This adjustment must take place in one's limbic brain (Hod-Netzach) or it may destabize the entire scaffold.

3. Take this (these correspondences) as being true.

4. Test-drive the system. The instructions are given in Magick Without Tears.

5. Adjust as necessary. I never found it necessary to adjust. It (777) is a well balanced presentation. But, then, all such systems break down at a certain point, or place, or time. My first breakdown was in the middle of Nowhere, Arizona (close to Winslow, but not there). When the numbers failed and became confused, I laughed, and turned my vehicle over to a different navigation system.

 


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Shiva
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Excuse me, but I failed to note why one would be wise to start with 777 ...

A. It is tight. This implies a sturdy structure. The basic compter in the limbic brain needs stable reference points.

B. It is understood by other people, and thus one is not a Stranger in a Strange Land speaking a Strange Language. Even if one decides to turn the whole thing upside down, like Achad the Strange Child did, one could still converse in esoteric symbols with others who have not.

Please keep in kind that all mental systems break down upon passing the outbound city limits of Chesed, AZ [insert your State, Province, or Gulag, if you know where your limits are].


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