Stephen Mace, in Stealing the Fire From Heaven outlines a process of creating special sigils as a means of mapping your personal magickal universe, sigilizing everything in your system with unique personal sigils that have a tie to the deeper levels of your consciousness, like Spare's more advanced methods. This can be an initiatory working unto itself.
You won't get much sympathy for Carroll and his Chaos Magic around these parts, roll with that DIY Chaos if you want, see how far you get.
Tradition! Tradition!
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Tradition! Tradition!
And "tradition" begins where?
Tradition! Tradition!
And "tradition" begins where?
With the tried and tested (centuries or more) methods that increase intelligence.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
With the tried and tested (centuries or more) methods that increase intelligence.
You seem to be pitting scientific knowledge against the creative tendencies of art and witchcraft. But we do not ascribe our basic principles of math, for example, to "tradition" in the same sense as we do religious and cultural ceremony. There certainly IS "tradition" in Crowleyanity. One performs Resh as the Prophet advised. One regards the Holy Books-and one to "rule them AL(l)." One says Will before scarfing down eyeballs. And so on. Relatively "new" traditions there but traditions none the less. And with "tradition" comes an association with "authority" and "dogma." Hence, the breaker of such "tradition" is a "heretic." Like Blake, who declared that he must create his own system lest he be enslaved by another's. This was a man Crowley regarded as a spiritual brother (and Crowley did, in fact, "create his own system"). I am reminded of the painter Franz Marc who once said traditions are beautiful to create-not follow.
You won't get much sympathy for Carroll and his Chaos Magic around these parts, roll with that DIY Chaos if you want, see how far you get.
I like some of Carroll's writing and it certainly had an influence on a younger me. "DIY." Didn't Crowley say something about wanting people to cut their own way through the jungle?
When I was in Boy Scouts, those of us attempting to earn our "Wilderness Survival" Merit Badge were sent off into the woods with a pocket knife and some matches. Figure it out. Make a shelter. Survive the night. To this day, I am fascinated with bushcraft vids on youtube. I love how people come up against a need or a threat and get creative.
I also spent a lot of time working Tarot systems which were at odds with each other. Big fan of the Kaplan "encyclopedias." I've painted 3 complete decks to date, designs all my own. Tradition and Dogma are great but I am also reminded of some simple words Kierkegaard penned in his journals:
"Truth must be truth for ME!"
I believe Wagner wrote words to similar effect with regards to criticism that he was taking liberties with "traditional" mythos in his operas. He said the impulse of the artist trumps all other concerns. And then he DID SOMETHING. He made music, gave his energy unto his art and we all catch a glimpse of that Otherworld by means of it.
Excuse me, but I failed to note why one would be wise to start with 777 ...
And I agree with that, it helps to have an existing system to start with. You need the training wheels first. I wasn't implying to start with making one's own system, you need a know the layout of the territory before you make your own map. What Mace was talking about was knowing the territory first, then making your own map, though not just making up sigils, more like receiving them from the deepest levels of your consciousness, thereby having each sigil have a pre-existing link to the regions where it came from, deeper than a rationally created sigil would.
Crafting your own tarot could be a similar thing.
Please keep in kind that all mental systems break down upon passing the outbound city limits of Chesed, AZ
The rational can only take us so far, and then we enter in to the territory of the transrational.
You won't get much sympathy for Carroll and his Chaos Magic around these parts, roll with that DIY Chaos if you want, see how far you get.
People have forgotten that the founders of Chaos Magick wanted people to actually know a system first. And now it's all degenerated in to "dosing yourself = magick lol"
With the tried and tested (centuries or more) methods that increase intelligence.
Every system started out as someone's personal system. UPG becomes SPG
it helps to have an existing system to start with
Even if we haven't been immersed in any esoteric or occult systems, we are immersed in our basic baseline reality tunnel. We have accepted many things as "true" or "baseline." We don't need "peer-reviewed studies." We exist in a "peer-reviewed reality." And then we begin to wake up (or at least stir a bit), question it, push up against its borders and get a sense that there might be something beyond.
receiving them from the deepest levels of your consciousness, thereby having each sigil have a pre-existing link to the regions where it came from, deeper than a rationally created sigil would.
This is such a great description of what is going on, Katrice. And it describes how great artwork is made. Dali once wrote that, when painting, one should think of anything BUT painting! The inspired artist learns how to access that deep, shadowy realm of raw creativity.
People have forgotten that the founders of Chaos Magick wanted people to actually know a system first.
I find it very interesting that a lot of Chaos Magicians got into the Runes and Germanic Culture and Tradition. The approach described by Carroll in his books does bust up forms-but it in the freed up space, the Will may be drawn into pre-existant forms more resonant with its Nature.
. And with "tradition" comes an association with "authority" and "dogma." Hence, the breaker of such "tradition" is a "heretic." Like Blake, who declared that he must create his own system lest he be enslaved by another's. This was a man Crowley regarded as a spiritual brother (and Crowley did, in fact, "create his own system"). I am reminded of the painter Franz Marc who once said traditions are beautiful to create-not follow.
So for example Crowley's book on Yoga was a radical new approach? No it wasn't other than eliminating the piety/morality BS. The actual core principles were not deviated from.
I like some of Carroll's writing and it certainly had an influence on a younger me.
Where is that 'younger you' now? How did Chaos magick somehow improve upon or it's parent Thelema?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
Typo; somehow improve upon it's parent Thelema?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
So for example Crowley's book on Yoga was a radical new approach? No it wasn't other than eliminating the piety/morality BS. The actual core principles were not deviated from.
So what? It's a nice book and has been helpful to lots of folks.
You may be missing my point. Have you done nothing in your own life which you see or identify as creatively contacting that raw primordial creative principle rising up through the strata of your own subconscious? I have a deep love for many occult symbols. I have also "birthed" too many sigils to count. The "established" and the "new" need not be at odds. In fact, I think they must have a powerful and dynamic relationship.
Where is that 'younger you' now?
Right here. Time is a Flat Circle as Rust Cole tells us.
How did Chaos magick somehow improve upon or it's parent Thelema?
Your question implies that CM improves upon Thelema. It also implies that Thelema is its parent. I don't know that these assertions are justified. For myself, CM strips magical systems of their symbols and examines the occult physics underpinning the tech. The tech does work with symbol systems and when removed from traditional sets, one is free to explore symbol systems more akin to one's liking or experience. One may find the Fantastic Four better suited to an establishment of the four quarters than Hebrew Angels. But in terms of "Results Magic," does it work? Is it solid?
I'm a fan of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles but I couldn't allocate them to the four suits of the Tarot. Not because it's wrong. It's simply that my mind is wired in such a way that I'd be suspicious of myself in doing so-and then flub things up with the attributions.
But this is relative to the mechanics of my mind. CM per Carroll also has methods and means of tinkering with these mechanics so that we may (to quote Michael Bertiaux) "get more mileage out of our Ontic Sphere."
Even if we haven't been immersed in any esoteric or occult systems, we are immersed in our basic baseline reality tunnel. We have accepted many things as "true" or "baseline." We don't need "peer-reviewed studies." We exist in a "peer-reviewed reality." And then we begin to wake up (or at least stir a bit), question it, push up against its borders and get a sense that there might be something beyond.
Illusion, Maya. Realizing that what you thought was the territory may be just another map.
This is such a great description of what is going on, Katrice.
Thank you! 😊
And it describes how great artwork is made. Dali once wrote that, when painting, one should think of anything BUT painting! The inspired artist learns how to access that deep, shadowy realm of raw creativity.
That is a really great analogy, and there can be some overlap in those areas. Art in general, but especially surrealism. I know that Grant wrote about that. Have you ever read A Book of Surrealist Games? Or Surrealism and the Occult? David Lynch's Catching the Big Fish also talks about this.
I find it very interesting that a lot of Chaos Magicians got into the Runes and Germanic Culture and Tradition.
I don't know much about the connection with Tradition, though it seems that a lot of the early IOT people were in to the Runes.
The approach described by Carroll in his books does bust up forms-but it in the freed up space, the Will may be drawn into pre-existant forms more resonant with its Nature.
That is a great way to put it. Chaos Magick in its original form does acknowledge Will and the HGA too, though much of its initiatory focus aims at developing magickal technique, per Liber Kaos Keraunos Kybernetos, though I'd argue that such a progression would come from initiatory work anyway.
Right here. Time is a Flat Circle as Rust Cole tells us.
I loved the first season of that show!
Your question implies that CM improves upon Thelema. It also implies that Thelema is its parent. I don't know that these assertions are justified. For myself, CM strips magical systems of their symbols and examines the occult physics underpinning the tech. The tech does work with symbol systems and when removed from traditional sets, one is free to explore symbol systems more akin to one's liking or experience.
CM teaches the underlying principles and leaves application up to the user. Carroll's own writings have a definite Thelemic influence. Do I remember right that he was involved with the OTO? His references to Will and the HGA as I mentioned show this. His mention of Choronzon too, and the colors of magic being a thinly disguised planetary magickal system could have come from that too.
One may find the Fantastic Four better suited to an establishment of the four quarters than Hebrew Angels. But in terms of "Results Magic," does it work? Is it solid?
Success is your proof.
But just because you like it doesn't mean that it'll work. That said, the Fantastic Four have deeper roots than the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, since the FF are more consciously based on the elements. 😉
So for example Crowley's book on Yoga was a radical new approach? No it wasn't other than eliminating the piety/morality BS.
You don't think that was a radical new approach for the time? Though Pierre Bernard's work might also qualify.
You won't get much sympathy for Carroll and his Chaos Magic around these parts, roll with that DIY Chaos if you want, see how far you get.
I never tried it at all, so I don't know how far I got. But I inquisitioned Peter C in-person, in the presence of his familiar cat-spirit girlfriend (1989). Ten years later (circa 1999), said girlfriend, under influence of corrosive fluid, in the middle of the infamous Last Chance Canyon, in the middle of the Mojave Desert, told me essentially what you just warned of. More or less.
By the way, in personal conversation, Peter was dismissive of, and condescending toward, our hero: Edward Alexander.
And "tradition" begins where?
You start with yerself. Then you go up the list to your guru, mentor, superior, link, or hero. Keep going up the list (of your hero's hero, etc) until you come to the first name at the top of the list. This should be the founder of the "tradition."
This applies to all traditions: Fraternal, magical, zen, martial arts, sports, auto racing, you name it. So some of us (possibly all) can be said to be of mixed traditional arts.
And "tradition" begins where?
Dom replies ... With the tried and tested (centuries or more) methods that increase intelligence.
I believe it develops through centuries, but it begins with the founder.
"In the beginning, elohim created the heaven and the earth." That's where the Judeo-Christian tradition began. It must be remarked that many traditions begin in unprovable myth. Around here, the founder was AC, and I personally grant credit to Allan Bennett as the godfounder.
This was and is cool. But then the OTO thing started and the tradition extended to the masonic brethren Saints, even back to ancient times, and gods.
I like some of Carroll's writing and it certainly had an influence on a younger me.
OHO! That's not Order Head of the Outer. I have told the story of how I laid my commission aside for a spell, then a book took a fell, of a shelf in a store (Chaos Magic). I bought it of course. I had an energizing experience from what was writ, but nothing that I remember well. This was followed by serious students (the kind that don't burn out) knocking on my door. A few months later we drove over to meet P.C. in concert.
Your question implies that CM improves upon Thelema. It also implies that Thelema is its parent. I don't know that these assertions are justified. For myself, CM strips magical systems of their symbols and examines the occult physics underpinning the tech. The tech does work with symbol systems and when removed from traditional sets, one is free to explore symbol systems more akin to one's liking or experience..................
But this is relative to the mechanics of my mind. CM per Carroll also has methods and means of tinkering with these mechanics so that we may (to quote Michael Bertiaux) "get more mileage out of our Ontic Sphere."
"The transmutation of the mind to magical consciousness has often been called the Great Work. It has a far-reaching purpose leading eventually to the discovery of the True Will" ~ P.J. Carroll Liber MMM, Liber Null and Psychonaut. True Will is a specifically Thelemic term so Carroll is here speaking as a Thelemite whether he likes it or not, so what's his entire schtick?
Answer;
I find it very interesting that a lot of Chaos Magicians got into the Runes and Germanic Culture and Tradition. The approach described by Carroll in his books does bust up forms-but it in the freed up space, the Will may be drawn into pre-existant forms more resonant with its Nature.
Uh-oh...but anyway ok you think that Carroll 'busted up forms.' By that phrase I understand that you therefore think that he imagined that he had something new to offer and that this therefore strongly implies that he (imo wrongly) saw Thelema as having become staid or even dogmatic? He emphasises paradigm-shifting and using 'belief' as a tool....but so did Crowley. He made inroads into scholarly studies in comparative religion which was pretty radical at the time. In fact one of AC's most popular quotes is from Liber O; "It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
How many times did Crowley prank people on shifting his beliefs on whether praeter- natural intelligences existed or not? Even in his final work, Magick Without Tears, we get comments like (in reference to his correspondent’s comments about the Archangels and Elemental Lords “watching” us): “did you invent these beings for no better purpose than to spy on you?
Now don't get me wrong, in terms of ass-backward Thelemic lineages I would agree that dogma set in and I pity anyone who thinks that joining some modern Thelema lodge is somehow going to help them to improve their work but getting back to PJC's alleged wonderful and radical overhaul of magick, his magickal writings appear to generally be a mere game of semantic-shifting of the content of AC's Magick in Theory and Practice and Book 4. If you don't beLIEve me then simply look at the contents page of Liber Null. The only innovation I can see is that apparently laughter is a form of banishing (hahaharrha) and AOS sentence of desire jumbling and launching the respective glyph..(which i have extensive experience of) blows away "smell sand bells" ceremonies. Add servitors to that mix as the apparent blowing away of trad evocation. Furthermore whose to say that Sigil-glyphs are merely another way of manipulating/calling Yetzirahic entities/forces that are already there for the traditionalist Cabbalist to call upon.
How is the AOS death-trance somehow a new and vigorous version of Buddhist/Thelemic Maranasati etc etc? PJC seems to look up to Austin Spare as a maverick who disregarded the Cabbalah, rising on the planes and Gematria. Personally I think AOS was an undisciplined nut as a lot of naturally great painters are. His writings are pure tedium and gobbledygook but that's just my narrow-minded opinion.
PJCarroll seemed to think that the dualistic magical alphabet and facing fear/loathing brings something new and more efficient. Again, Crowley often discussed these matters
It shall not be very long before you come to understand that such a life is the true Liberty. You will feel distractions from your Will as being what they are. They will no longer appear pleasant and attractive, but as bonds, as shames. And when you have attained this point, know that you have passed the Middle Gate of this Path. For you will have unified your Will.
Even thus, were a man sitting in a theatre where the play wearies him, he would welcome every distraction, and find amusement in any accident: but if he were intent upon the play, every such incident would annoy him. His attitude to these is then an indication of his attitude towards the play itself.
At first the habit of attention is hard to acquire. Persevere, and you will have spasms of revulsion periodically. Reason itself will attack you, saying: how can so strict a bondage be the Path of Freedom?
Persevere. You have never yet known Liberty. When the temptations are overcome, the voice of Reason silenced, then will your soul bound forward unhampered upon its chosen course, and for the first time will you experience the extreme delight of being Master of Yourself, and therefore of the Universe. ~ Liber CL De Lege Libellum L— L— L— L— L etc etc
Where is that 'younger you' now?
Right here. Time is a Flat Circle as Rust Cole tells us.
Well no, he's been shed like a snake's skin.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I do consider both Chaos Magick and Setianism as derivative of Thelema, but at least the Setians openly acknowledge it. Carroll seems to have some bitterness left over from his own involvement with Thelema, even though the connection is obvious to anyone who reads his books.
you think that Carroll 'busted up forms.'
Chaos Magick shifted the emphasis from form to pure function, leaving form up to the individual.
Is this anything "new"? Not as such. Sigils are essentially bindrunes, servitors are "artificial elementals", but an approach from this perspective, focusing purely on technique over belief system, was fresh for the time.
Before "chemognosis" and "meme magick" took over.
Furthermore whose to say that Sigil-glyphs are merely another way of manipulating/calling Yetzirahic entities/forces that are already there for the traditionalist Cabbalist to call upon.
With the works of people like Jason Miller representing a shift from the psychological approach to entities back to seeing them as objective entities.
Carroll seems to have some bitterness left over from his own involvement with Thelema, even though the connection is obvious to anyone who reads his books.
I recall that he recommended the reader of his Liber Chaos consume everything they could by Aleister Crowley. When I read Psybermagick (while driving at 80 mph on the Interstate-not the smartest thing to do), it was clear he was wishing to go beyond the basic tenets of Thelema.
you think that Carroll 'busted up forms.'
Chaos Magick shifted the emphasis from form to pure function, leaving form up to the individual.
Simply and succinctly stated. Yes, he did bust them up. He took the LBRP, for example, and shook off the Hebrew forms. What we are then left with is a "template" upon which may be hung any number of symbols, figures etc. Carroll even looked at what was left and saw further possibilities for the template itself. Hence, the LBRP could now describe a pyramid or other form as much as the "traditional" sphere.
a shift from the psychological approach to entities back to seeing them as objective entities
In my experience(s) with LAM, I found that, over time, each approach fed into the other, demanding a larger perspective. Both Crowley and Robert Anton Wilson heartily recommend skepticism as the sanest approach, the magical diary being a great asset. I do think there is great value in the "Maybe Logic." We enter dangerous territory, "Chapel Perilous." But we do so with escape portals wide open.
... it was clear he was wishing to go beyond the basic tenets of Thelema.
Beyond? Okay. But simpler or more complex?
... the LBRP, for example, and shook off the Hebrew forms.
Good.
We enter dangerous territory, "Chapel Perilous." But we do so with escape portals wide open.
Escape portals? Shall I recite the legion list of the dead, who died (prematurely) somewhere along the Path? No, not again, please.
Fine, then let me simply wonder what these portals are, and where they be?
I recall that he recommended the reader of his Liber Chaos consume everything they could by Aleister Crowley.
Something like "Read what you can, there is too much"
When I read Psybermagick (while driving at 80 mph on the Interstate-not the smartest thing to do), it was clear he was wishing to go beyond the basic tenets of Thelema.
And Psybermagick itself was structured like the Book of Lies.
But in his interactions, as Shiva mentioned, he tends to come off as dismissive. Other early Chaos Magick writers, like Phil Hine and Dave Lee, seem more positive in their comments.
Simply and succinctly stated.
Thank you.
Yes, he did bust them up. He took the LBRP, for example, and shook off the Hebrew forms. What we are then left with is a "template" upon which may be hung any number of symbols, figures etc. Carroll even looked at what was left and saw further possibilities for the template itself. Hence, the LBRP could now describe a pyramid or other form as much as the "traditional" sphere.
I did enjoy seeing that. And seeing the use of vowel sounds in his Gnostic Pentagram Ritual, reminiscent of the Recitation of the Heptagram from the PGM, making it a pared down version of the LBRP but still keeping with one of the most ancient recorded Hermetic rituals.
In my experience(s) with LAM, I found that, over time, each approach fed into the other, demanding a larger perspective. Both Crowley and Robert Anton Wilson heartily recommend skepticism as the sanest approach, the magical diary being a great asset. I do think there is great value in the "Maybe Logic." We enter dangerous territory, "Chapel Perilous." But we do so with escape portals wide open.
Very much so. We need to maintain the rational to keep from becoming Yellow Brick Roadkill, but still remain open to the transrational in order to work effectively. I may seem dismissive of UPG here and there but it's perfectly valid in your own sphere if it produces beneficial results for you when tested, it just becomes questionable if you insist it applies to others before it becomes SPG or VPG.
You keep making this distinction between "UPG" on the one hand, and "SPG" and "VPG" on the other.
These seem like useful categories, but are not terms i've encountered before.
- Where do they come from?, and
- Is there some recognized test for telling the difference? (can't imagine that there can be), and
- What is the "S" is "SPG"?
Perhaps you've explained these things somewhere that i've missed, and, if so, i apologize.
You keep making this distinction between "UPG" on the one hand, and "SPG" and "VPG" on the other.
These seem like useful categories, but are not terms i've encountered before.
- Where do they come from?, and
- Is there some recognized test for telling the difference? (can't imagine that there can be), and
- What is the "S" is "SPG"?
Perhaps you've explained these things somewhere that i've missed, and, if so, i apologize.
To be honest, I'm not sure of the exact origin of the terms but I believe they initially came out of modern polytheistic reconstructionism.
I have explained them here before, but in another thread, so you may have missed it.
I'll explain them all for anyone else who may have missed it.
UPG is Unverified Personal Gnosis- this is means a personal insight or revelation that has relevance to yourself but may not have relevance to others. Think of it as the magickal equivalent of headcanon. SPG is Shared Personal Gnosis, which represents when unconnected others have experiences that corroborate yours. These two are still in the realm of the subjective. VPG is Verified Personal Gnosis, which represents when UPG or SPG is verified by an objective outside source.
I don't know about any universally recognized test for UPG, or whether such a thing could exist, as you mention, but Jason Miller provides a useful Post Gnosis Checklist here: https://www.strategicsorcery.net/the-post-gnosis-checklist/
I believe they initially came out of modern polytheistic reconstructionism.
Aha - the attempted restitution of The Old Ones - possibly the elohim?
I don't know about any universally recognized test for UPG
This UPG seems to be applicable to Amazing Revelations (as sometimes posted around here), wherein individual folks discover "keys" or "solutions." but nobody else gets the joke ... or sees the same thing.
I believe they initially came out of modern polytheistic reconstructionism.
Aha - the attempted restitution of The Old Ones - possibly the elohim?
Recons are all about only following practices that have been historically verified, or, if no complete sources exist, what they can at least reconstruct from what historical information they have available. Not my thing, personally, but they are great for finding out about historically documented information on ancient practices.
This UPG seems to be applicable to Amazing Revelations (as sometimes posted around here), wherein individual folks discover "keys" or "solutions." but nobody else gets the joke ... or sees the same thing.
Pretty much. UPG isn't a bad thing in and of itself, as long as it's recognized as Unverified and Personal and treated as such.
Thank you for explaining, @katrice. I figured the "S" was something like "social" or "societal", so i had the idea more or less.
So "VPG" is a category of limited usefulness, as it takes very little disputing to turn most "gnosis" into the "unverified" kind, at least in the eyes of the disputers.
And normal folk, of course, not that we often concern ourselves with the views of such trogs around here.
UPG isn't a bad thing in and of itself
Of course not. The problems arise when UPGers begin to impose (not necssarily forecfully) their gnosis on other folks (who don't get the joke).
let me simply wonder what these portals are, and where they be?
E Prime is one such escape portal in that it offers a path out of obsession's oubliette by destroying that tendency to run off with conclusions of "objectivity" over one's..."UPG." First (and probably last) time I've ever used that expression-but it seemed apropos with regards to the direction of this thread...
In his own way, Crowley advised practice of E Prime in his Libers where he says we do certain things and certain results follow-but it is unwise to attribute any objective value to what we are experiencing. At least at that stage of the game.
Does that mean later on, we get enough wisdom to attribute such objective values? It seems to me that "later on" we move, in our outlook, into a vantage point beyond categories of "Objective" and "Subjective."
I generally think it's a bad idea to "break traditions" unless you've followed them for a while and gotten something out of them. There are phases where you think you're all sorts of a fine fellow and capable of breaking rules or inventing your own traditions, etc., but that could just be narcissism. Or not - really it's impossible to say until much later.
"Innovation," "breaking boundaries," "challenging" this or that, etc., only have meaning in relation to an existing tradition. If the tradition is constantly chipped away at so that there's no long a tradition, then the "innovations" are no longer innovations, but just chaos.
(That's part of the problem with Western civ atm.)
(Amusingly, Plato went on at great length about rock stars and how destructive of society they can be. Music carries the "harmonic" of a folk, it's supposed to be "boring" and samey, it's supposed to be the same thing over time and across generations and change only very slowly, to match the gradual evolution of the folk and their culture in relation to the slowly changing environment. He lamented the fact that you'd often get very talented musicians who'd be so enamoured of their skill and ability that they'd start all this "breaking boundaries" and "challenging conventions" business, and pretty soon the society would be fucked.)
Plato went on at great length about rock stars and how destructive of society they can be. Music carries the "harmonic" of a folk, it's supposed to be "boring" and samey, it's supposed to be the same thing over time and across generations and change only very slowly, to match the gradual evolution of the folk and their culture in relation to the slowly changing environment. He lamented the fact that you'd often get very talented musicians who'd be so enamoured of their skill and ability that they'd start all this "breaking boundaries" and "challenging conventions" business, and pretty soon the society would be fucked.)
So he wouldn't like Beefheart. But Socrates would have spun Trout Mask.
I generally think it's a bad idea to "break traditions" unless you've followed them for a while and gotten something out of them
I think this is the general consensus. It applies to art and many other disciplines and pursuits. It is very instructive to look at the evolution of Picasso or Mondrian, both of whom mastered the "rules" before breaking them again and again. And also: the breaking of the rules, departure from standards and so forth is best achieved when it arises from inspiration as opposed to insubordination. One may become insubordinate as a result but one isn't thumbing the nose at tradition just to be a rabble-rouser. There is a new idea, a fresh impulse, a compelling need to explore possibilities outside the mainframe. And I would also say that many rebels and inventors and creators continue to honor traditions even while revamping them. This is true of Crowley, yes?
Thank you for explaining, @katrice.
No problem. 😀
I figured the "S" was something like "social" or "societal", so i had the idea more or less.
I thought you probably would have
So "VPG" is a category of limited usefulness, as it takes very little disputing to turn most "gnosis" into the "unverified" kind, at least in the eyes of the disputers.
Not necessarily. Recons probably get more use out of it as they're more about having documentation to back up what they do. But let's approach it from something closer to Thelema.
Suppose I had a vision of the spirit Zemazrome. This would be UPG. If I then found that Zemazrome had been encountered by someone else without my or their knowledge, that would be SPG.
Now, if an archaeologist suddenly found an ancient hidden temple to a previously-unknown god named Zemazrome, and more if that Zemazrome had traits aligned with my Zemazrome and the other person's Zemazrome, that would be VPG, because a source based in objective research validated it.
And normal folk, of course, not that we often concern ourselves with the views of such trogs around here.
Normies need not apply lol 😉
Of course not. The problems arise when UPGers begin to impose (not necssarily forecfully) their gnosis on other folks (who don't get the joke).
We shall mention no names.
Suppose I had a vision of the spirit Zemazrome.
Many "suppose"-ings and "ifs" in this section of your reply.
To help a poor slow old guy like me, could you please specify three or four actually verified examples of this "VPG", verified in the sense of "credible to persons not enrolled in some cult, religion, or belief-system, affiliation with which is contingent on believing in X"?
One may become insubordinate as a result but one isn't thumbing the nose at tradition just to be a rabble-rouser. There is a new idea, a fresh impulse, a compelling need to explore possibilities outside the mainframe. And I would also say that many rebels and inventors and creators continue to honor traditions even while revamping them. This is true of Crowley, yes?
Oh yes, true of Crowley, and true of a lot of people at the crossover between the 19th and 20th centuries. But I think by about 3/4 of the way through the 20th "things just got out of hand" as Doctor Strange's evil multiverse twin says in the trailer for the relevant upcoming capeshit 🙂
There's a point at which "breaking boundaries" itself becomes an automatism and the revolutionaries just start gnawing each others' faces.
Many "suppose"-ings and "ifs" in this section of your reply.
To help a poor slow old guy like me, could you please specify three or four actually verified examples of this "VPG", verified in the sense of "credible to persons not enrolled in some cult, religion, or belief-system, affiliation with which is contingent on believing in X"?
I did use a pretty extreme example to illustrate the idea. It could also be something as minor as receiving gnosis about something you previously did not know and then finding evidence of it somewhere else, like maybe having a vision where a deity reveals an aspect to you that you previously had not known and then seeing a reference to it in a book. Or, for something that happened to me once, seeing a passage of a book you thought only existed in a vision and then reading that exact passage elsewhere.
Andy Collins's Psychic Questing can involve SPG and VPG.
But you do have a point, such things would be difficult to prove to someone who was not already friendly to the idea. How do you prove you had the gnostic experience in the first place? And even if you recorded it somewhere, it's not hard to fake such a thing.
VPG tends to be more about validation, and possibly opening doors for further exploration.
E Prime is one such escape portal in that it offers a path out of obsession's oubliette by destroying that tendency to run off with conclusions of "objectivity" over one's..."UPG." First (and probably last) time I've ever used that expression-but it seemed apropos with regards to the direction of this thread...
E-prime, or V-prime to use Carroll's broader term, can be a very powerful tool in general, and increasing use can really help with altering perspectives.
Does that mean later on, we get enough wisdom to attribute such objective values? It seems to me that "later on" we move, in our outlook, into a vantage point beyond categories of "Objective" and "Subjective
As we approach the transrational, the distinctions begin to blur.
There's a point at which "breaking boundaries" itself becomes an automatism and the revolutionaries just start gnawing each others' faces.
People here know I'm a fan of transgressive practices but empty rebellion is just that, empty. Does transgression for its own sake really accomplish anything?
You need to know the rules and boundaries in order to know what you're doing when you break them, and in order to break them constructively. To advance, create something new, or to liberate.
But just because you like it doesn't mean that it'll work. That said, the Fantastic Four have deeper roots than the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, since the FF are more consciously based on the elements. 😉
I was a Marvel Universe geek in the 70s when none of the normals were into it, now they voraciously lap it up for some reason (in blockbuster movies). Marvel Comics introduced me to the occult especially Dr Strange. The Rick Jones character with his bracelets clanging together when he wanted to invoke his cosmic Alien HGA, amazing.
Anyway the FF as the elements yeah I get that.
I remember I was honing my Chaos Magick alphabet of desire symbols (again) and i went out , got in my car and drove up the road, the first car in front of me (a big black one) contained the letters AOS in it's licence plate.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I was a Marvel Universe geek in the 70s when none of the normals were into it, now they voraciously lap it up for some reason (in blockbuster movies). Marvel Comics introduced me to the occult especially Dr Strange. The Rick Jones character with his bracelets clanging together when he wanted to invoke his cosmic Alien HGA, amazing.
Ah, reading comics as a kid on sunny days on the porch - the smell of the paper, the bright colours, the flight of the imagination. Happy days!
In the UK in the 60s and 70s, we only got US comics as sporadic imports in newsagents here and there, and there was also a line of black & white reprints of all sorts of US stuff (the Alan Class comics - Creepy Worlds, Secrets of the Unknown, etc.), not just from Marvel but from some of the more obscure publishers, all jumbled up in non-consecutive issues. So most British kids' impressions of the US comics lines was of these little fragments of stories that, over time, you might eventually piece together if you were lucky.
It's like that bit in Crowley's biog where he talks about getting telegrams about the time from someplace in China that arrived all out of sequence 🙂
Ah, reading comics as a kid on sunny days on the porch - the smell of the paper, the bright colours, the flight of the imagination. Happy days!
In the UK in the 60s and 70s, we only got US comics as sporadic imports in newsagents here and there, and there was also a line of black & white reprints of all sorts of US stuff (the Alan Class comics - Creepy Worlds, Secrets of the Unknown, etc.), not just from Marvel but from some of the more obscure publishers, all jumbled up in non-consecutive issues. So most British kids' impressions of the US comics lines was of these little fragments of stories that, over time, you might eventually piece together if you were lucky.
It's like that bit in Crowley's biog where he talks about getting telegrams about the time from someplace in China that arrived all out of sequence 🙂
As a UK resident I remember those black and white reprints but I think the actual coloured imports were monthly. I was fascinated with the tiny adverts packed into a page at a time, do you remember that 'sell grit' advert? I was like, Americans want kids to buy and sell grit to their adult neighbours?! I couldn't relate to anything that wasn't Marvel it seemed inferior. Here's the Mystic Master astrally projecting;
By the way I had the first 2000AD but thought that it generally sucked.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
do you remember that 'sell grit' advert? I was like, Americans want kids to buy and sell grit to their adult neighbours?!
I found the "Sell GRIT!" ads just as bizarre as you did, david. I have never seen a copy of this periodical in my life, and never heard of any kid who answered that ad. So pretty sure "Americans" in general thought the same as you.
Now Johnson and Smith ads on the other hand? And that giant submarine (which i heard was actually just cardboard)!
I was a DC guy myself (Silver Age Batman especially), although i bought a lot of Marvel books too, especially Jack Kirby stuff. My younger brother was a real comix obsessive and went on to work in the industry for a while.
I found the "Sell GRIT!" ads just as bizarre as you did, david. I have never seen a copy of this periodical in my life, and never heard of any kid who answered that ad. So pretty sure "Americans" in general thought the same as you.
Now Johnson and Smith ads on the other hand? And that giant submarine (which i heard was actually just cardboard)!
I was a DC guy myself (Silver Age Batman especially), although i bought a lot of Marvel books too, especially Jack Kirby stuff. My younger brother was a real comix obsessive and went on to work in the industry for a while.
A DC guy? How? The submarine haha I think i remember that. Ironically I could have done with lots of grit last month when I was repairing a loose flagstone. Regarding the buying and selling of grit for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about here is the ad;
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
the path from Chokmah to Tiph is The Emp. Sure, that fits. But wait. The Emp is holding and orb/cross doo-dad that signifies Dominion over the lower planes. The Emp also is the "power" (dominion) of dhyana over the (lower) mind. I like the Emp down at the Netzach-Yesod train track.
So that leaves The Star on the Chokmah-Tiph track, which is right-on according to my "vision" of how the Will overshadows the Abstract (Higher) Mind.
I see that I can run on, and on, for a long time with more details of how I see the deal, which is not necessarily how any other person (including AC) might see it. So I call a "STOP" and suggest that anyone or everyone get on with their own HGA work, so that they might write their own (dictated to me) Book of their own Law, leading to the revelation of their own QBL, which allows their lower mind to run smoothly so as to not distract the real work under way.
I wonder if that was clear enough?
I considered that any organization or process in the cosmos could conform to the 10 Sephirah and their interrelational 22 paths. Consider the childhood to adult stages of human development. I switched off my analytic mind and wrote the major crises that a well-adjusted adult has to pass through from birth and came up with this and they appear to fit nicely;
KETHER
A baby is born in 'bliss', on a functional level this is oneness, it literally thinks it is The Most High (how convenient is that for this Sephiroth?) and the World is at it's command.
CHOKMAH
The first major crisis is the 'come down', the relinquishing of that Most High status as it painfully realizes there is ...a Mother ...a second...that it relies on so boundaries are becoming established.
BINAH
The screeching feed-me neediness is literally unbearable and this crisis is dealt with by projection of it's own violence out there into the Mother. Again Binah would appear to be convenient for terrible mother concepts. This safety-valve function is the basis for paranoia by the way.
CHESED
The crisis here is the crawling phase where the baby painfully leaves Mother and explores. Handled badly (by an anxious mother) this will create a depressive uptight person.
GEBURAH
This is the martial toddler phase, angry territorial demands must be policed by a Father so that the baby can learn to contain his own explosive rocket-fuel as it were. Add to this the penis-envy and the Oedipal crisis which is also a rebellion that must be curbed by the parents particularly the male.
TIPARETH
An ego is developing particularly the individual's family role.
NETZACH
Bonding with other people outside of the family unit and later other peers are dealt with accordingly.
HOD
Learning..particularly the lessons of moral socialization as well as the obvious 'schooling'.
YESOD
Puberty, volatile lunar forces particularly teh first PMT for the ovulating female. Include the first conveniently lunar 'wet dream' for the male.
MALKUTH
The solidification of all previous forces moulding the adult personality.
If you link these 10 forces up can you see any significant relationship between the associated ATU on those 22 Paths?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I was a Marvel Universe geek in the 70s when none of the normals were into it, now they voraciously lap it up for some reason (in blockbuster movies). Marvel Comics introduced me to the occult especially Dr Strange.
I do love Dr Strange.
The Rick Jones character with his bracelets clanging together when he wanted to invoke his cosmic Alien HGA, amazing.
That's a fun way to interpret Captain Marvel.
Anyway the FF as the elements yeah I get that.
Jack Kirby was in to Joseph Campbell, Erich von Daniken, and stuff like that, so a lot of the symbolism was intentional.
I remember I was honing my Chaos Magick alphabet of desire symbols (again) and i went out , got in my car and drove up the road, the first car in front of me (a big black one) contained the letters AOS in it's licence plate.
I love synchronicities like that.
I was fascinated with the tiny adverts packed into a page at a time, do you remember that 'sell grit' advert?
I don't remember "sell grit" but I'm old enough to remember x-ray specs, Charles Atlas and the "instant seahorses" ads (can't remember the proper term) in the original imports in the 60s 🙂
(I actually had a FF #2 or #3 from those days - of course I didn't keep it because I had no idea how big the whole thing would get. For me it was just an annoyance that I only had that issue and not the earlier or later ones - although some of the rest of story I managed to fill in later from the Alan Class reprints, and it all finally made sense when they brought out the anthologies!)
Another nice thing about the US imports in the UK in the 60s is the DC lines at the time - there were fantastic things like The Spectre, Metal Men, Metamorpho the Element Man, and especially The Doom Patrol (the best name for a superhero team EVER!).
Interestingly, there's still some debate about whether X-Men, who came out shortly after the Doom Patrol, were a knock-off of the DP. The timing was close but far enough to be suspicious 🙂
the "instant seahorses" ads (can't remember the proper term)
You are thinking of the "Sea Monkeys".
My brother bought some. They were brine shrimp, about 1/2 an inch long and very dull. He was quite disappointed, and learned something about life, and small ads in comix, from this.
Apologies for double-post, but here is the submarine. My parents flat out refused to let us order it, and of course that was a lot of money for little kids back then:
You are thinking of the "Sea Monkeys".
My brother bought some. They were brine shrimp, about 1/2 an inch long and very dull. He was quite disappointed, and learned something about life, and small ads in comix, from this.
They're supposed to look like monkeys I take it?
That submarine rip-off is hilarious.
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
He was quite disappointed, and learned something about life, and small ads in comix, from this
I still wanted 132 Roman Soldiers.
Charles Atlas
I ordered the first introductory Atlas course in my 40's, I think, when I saw they were still available online. This was 40 year old me getting pressured by my every version of my childhood self who read the "sand kicked in the face" comics ad in the back of the many, many comics I collected all through my life. After all those years, I HAD to see what this actually was.
Atlas was an interesting guy and apparently, he really could rip a phone book in half. His genius was coming up with a body building schtick that didn't require all the overhead and expense of sending 98 lb weaklings free weights in the mail. Send him your cash and he would send you...paper. With the internet, the Atlas company went to NO overhead. Send cash...get a pdf.
And thus, Kyle, at last, learned the secrets of DYNAMIC TENSION. It was about 20 pages of wind up, followed by a single page of exercises to do. A couple involved chairs. Most were flexing your muscles, pulling on invisible rope etc.
I later learned that the muscular Mr. Charles supplemented his own instructions with...free weights.
His genius was coming up with a body building schtick that didn't require all the overhead and expense of sending 98 lb weaklings free weights in the mail. Send him your cash and he would send you...paper.
There's a whole interesting, obscure history of various bodybuilding/weight training things right back to the early 20th century.
There's a fascinating thing called "Maxalding" that was very popular for a long time, and it was actually one of the influences that went into the "posing" you get in bodybuilding nowadays, but it also involved something very similar to "Nauli" in Yoga. (Creating an abdominal vacuum and isolating abdominal muscles, tensing and relaxing them. There's no evidence that it came from the Indian tradition, it was just a parallel evolution type of thing, I suppose, because Maxalding's thing was isolating and tensing/relaxing muscles all over the body.)
The last popular remnant of Maxalding was a guy on Opportunity Knocks (I think it was), a quiz show in the UK in the 60s that had occasional "turns" for side-entertainment - he used to do the Nauli-like thing and some other muscle twitching, and was quite famous for a while.
The Doom Patrol (the best name for a superhero team EVER!).
I have read and enjoyed Grant Morrison's and Rachel Pollack's runs on Doom Patrol, but I haven't read any of the earlier comics.
So Crowley took the planetary associations from either disputed Paths and switched them along also? Obviously the core Hebrew meaning of each letter of it's Path remains i.e Tzaddi 'fish hook' and Heh 'window' but now the Aquarius-Star ATU is replaced by the Aries Emperor ATU where, in the latter, Mars is exalted and alchemically speaking it is Sulphuric. What about the associated Path intelligences (I don't mean Planetary Intelligence-entities) i.e Tzaddi was the Constituting intelligence prior to Liber AL? Heh never appeared to have a specific 'intelligence' feature identified.
However the verb 'to constitute' is 'to give legal or constitutional form to (an institution); establish by law' which smacks of the Aries Emperor ATU by me therefore I take it that the Path intelligences were switched by AC also?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
However the verb 'to constitute' is 'to give legal or constitutional form to (an institution); establish by law' which smacks of the Aries Emperor ATU by me therefore I take it that the Path intelligences were switched by AC also?
And none of those astrological correspondences really took form before the Golden Dawn. 😉
I have read and enjoyed Grant Morrison's and Rachel Pollack's runs on Doom Patrol, but I haven't read any of the earlier comics.
Oh you should check out the original 60s run at some point, it's pretty good (within the limitations of its time and budget ofc, as with all the older comics - they were basically disposable entertainment for kids that only occasionally reached anything like the level of art). It's a short, self-contained run.
Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol was amazing, and in this context it should be noted that he's very fond of that spread of DC comics in the mid-60s (most of the good ones, which I mentioned) because of the wild imagination on display.
It's like, you had your Marvels coming out at the time, and they first became famous for bringing superheroes down to earth (obviously Spidey in particular), exploring what they might be like in their secret identity, things like getting married, etc., what human problems they might have, and so on.
But at the same time you had this whole lesser-known DC efflorescence that went absolutely bananas. e.g. the Spectre had some amazing "cosmic" stuff going on in the 60s, with his powers ramped up to near-omnipotence, fighting gods and demons, an early introduction of the idea of parallel universes, etc. (at least that's how I remember it 🙂 ).
And none of those astrological correspondences really took form before the Golden Dawn. 😉
But can you answer my question? Did the Golden Dawn have Tzaddi as Aries and the constituting intelligence?
https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline
I have read and enjoyed Grant Morrison's and Rachel Pollack's runs on Doom Patrol, but I haven't read any of the earlier comics.
Oh you should check out the original 60s run at some point, it's pretty good
AND...the Post-Pollack material, also. So much more strangeness around every corner.
There's a fascinating thing called "Maxalding" that was very popular for a long time, and it was actually one of the influences that went into the "posing" you get in bodybuilding nowadays
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And none of those astrological correspondences really took form before the Golden Dawn. 😉
But can you answer my question? Did the Golden Dawn have Tzaddi as Aries and the constituting intelligence?
I wasn't trying to answer it, I just pointed out that the GD started piling correspondences on to the Tree and the Atus where nobody had done that before. They took de Mellet and de Gebelin and Levi and ran with it, but most of those correspondences didn't exist in the nearly four centuries of tarot history prior to that. This doesn't mean that they don't work if you want them to, just that the creators of the tarot didn't assign them and that they're comparatively recent, historically speaking.
But you know as well as I do that in the GD system Aquarius is originally attributed to the Star, Daughter of the Firmament, and Aries to the Emperor.
Levi attributed it to Peh, though, if I remember correctly.