A couple weeks too late for April Fools, so i suppose it is possible you are serious. If so:

Your "gematria" on "Vivian" uses two different systems- reading the repeated "vi" as Roman numerals "VI", and then for the "AN", you use ordinal values, with digits of two digit ordinal numbers added (ie, "N" is the 14th letter, so you value it at "1 + 4") to get where you want to get- "lust of result"?

Also, why don't you add the digits you extract (6 + 6 + 4 + 1) to get 17? Alternatively, "V" is the 22d letter, and "I" is the ninth letter- why not stick with ordinals (since not all letters have Roman numeral equivalents), and thus 2 + 2 + 9 + 2 + 2 + 9 + 1 + 1 + 4 = 32?

Then for "Stanshall", on the other hand, you extract a subset of letters (the ones that spell "Lashtal"), and use ordinal values, but do not for some reason add the digits of two digit ordinal numbers in this case (or your "result" would be 15 (1 + 4 + 1 + 9 =15)).

"Stanshall" was his family surname. It is true he adopted the name "Vivian" in adult life, but it was his father's birth name. His father was born Vivian and changed his name to Victor; our Vivian did the opposite.

You say that there is "not a chance in hell this is by coincidence". Who would you posit is doing the message-encoding here?

Is it possible that the artifact originates in your perception, not the source material? Using your methods, i suspect it is possible to extract messages from the Dog Star from the phonebook.

ape: Not a chance in hell this is by coincidence.
What do you think?

I think you have learned the Crowley version of QBL very well ideed.

Mixing up Roman numerals with the QBL of 9 numbers to arrive at a number that has "Though an S + N are left over:" tells us all that maybe you need to go back to remedial math class and start over.

Next thing we know, you'll be telling us how the dog has cracked the AL code.

Ig: ... it is possible to extract messages from the Dog Star from the phonebook.

Now you're getting serious. My phoneybook also indicates that I am the lofty chosen one from Serious, and furthermore that the Ape of Thoth is living up to his reputation.

I am sorry to report that the candidate has failed his examination to pass from Hod to Netzach. Better luck next time (hahaha rings down the hallowed hall of hilarity).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D-SqQV_T04

elitemachinery: [GONG]

Possible pot/kettle issues here?

"Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:4; see also Luke 6:41

@thothsape said:

STANSHALL: LASHTAL

Though an S + N are left over:

genius!

@ignant666 said:

Possible pot/kettle issues here?

Perhaps. But I don't recall you tearing apart my gematria and numerology like you did above. The thread is still open so feel free to attack if you wish.

Everyone deserves their day in court. And you and Shiva pretty much summed it up above. This post is probably a troll joker anyways.

@shiva said:

hahaha rings down the hallowed hall of hilarity

Gong!

What do you think? You may slander my name all over the place or tell me I’m a wise man. I know only fools rush in.

I think bands like this or The Fugs at the end of the 60s who namecheck Crowley are further from the war-engine of the aeon than the ones who don't have to. Dee Dee Ramone or Eddie Cochrane could teach you more about the aeon and Crowley than these guys.

The point of the thread, david, is that, far from name-checking AC, the Bonzos have nothing whatever to do with AC outside of some unusually delusional gematria-games.

I don't recall the Fugs ever mentioning AC either. Ed Sanders was not exactly a Crowley fan, as any reader of The Family knows. I can't recall if he slanders Shiva personally or just the Solar Lodge of the OTO generally as cultists and possible murder-zombies, but he certainly is in the John Symonds camp as to The Demon Crowley.

Your final point about some artists who never mention AC, and probably never heard of him, telling us more about the 93 Current than bands that wear their Crowley-fandom on their sleeves is well-taken.

It is surprising to hear you make this point, though, since you were so vociferous in denouncing this exact same point when i made it in connection with the death of free-jazz god Ornette Coleman a few years back.

Don't know what the Coleman reference is about. The Fugs used a photo of Crowley in his appalling beard-phase in one of their album sleeves and Coil and Throbbing Gristle are absolute swill also.

Gematria shouldn't have to be complicated. I'll get around to buying a Hebrew to English dictionary I guess. Disappointing that Crowley faffed around with Roman numerals to fudge results.

Which Fugs album is that, david? All the ones i'm familiar with have pictures of the band, and i wonder why Sanders would put a picture of someone he despised on his record.

Since your memory is failing you:

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/ornette-coleman-died-61115-ev/

As i recall it was a copy of "It crawled into my hand" LP. Photo of Crowley on a donkey.

@dom

Disappointing that Crowley faffed around with Roman numerals to fudge results.

Could you please provide an example to back up your assertion that Crowley "faffed around with Roman numerals to fudge results"?

@michaelstayley

Could you please provide an example to back up your assertion that Crowley “faffed around with Roman numerals to fudge results”

Yeah sure here;

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/gematria-in-liber-lviii/

Learned scholar Shiva points this out in the second post of that thread link.

@dom

Despite your casual "Yeah sure here", there is no example in the thread to back up your assertion; you've simply taken Shiva's word for it. He might well be right, but it's striking that you parrot the assertion without wanting to see an example. I must sell you a bridge one day.

But Michael, david only wants to see evidence for things that contradict his prejudices; anything that fits with his prejudices is swallowed whole.

This is because he is a "Skeptic".

I trust that Shiva is correct. I'd like to hear more about this Roman numeral Gematria issue.

@dom

Shiva may perhaps be referring to instances such as LAShTAL = 93. To arrive at this, LA = 31 and of course its mirror, AL, also = 31. As for the middle bit, ShT, Crowley equates Shin with Atu XX, and T with Atu XI, thus total 31. Thus we get 31 + 31 + 31 = 93.

Personally I think this is a million miles away from the computations - I use the word advisedly - of the OP.

As a matter of interest, and despite Sepher Sephiroth, Crowley did not use gematria that much, and was - in the correspondence of 1936 between the two men - critical of Achad for what he considered his over-reliance on it.

MS: Shiva may perhaps be referring to instances such as LAShTAL = 93.

Exactly so.

@Shiva

How much evidence if any do you have for AC fudging Gematria with Roman Numerals?

@dom

I think Shiva's already answered that question in the post above yours. The LAShTAL instance appeared in Magick in Theory and Practice. I wouldn't call it "fudging" though, since it was a word that - so far as I know - Crowley coined.

Besides, it's not as if Gematria is precision engineering. Dictionaries such as Sepher Sephiroth give a number of different and diverse words totalling a specific number. It's a question of context. A qabalist is generally trying to establish a case, to underpin an insight that he or she has already had; clearly, the appropriate materials will be selected for the construction.

I think what david is asking for is an instance where AC used letters in a word or name as Roman numerals directly, as did the OP (the two VIs in "Vivian" each being 6, eg), rather than using Roman numeral values of letters, as in the "LAShTAL" example.

@ignant666

Thanks for the clarification. I can't recall ever coming across gematria from Crowley as you describe. but we'll see if Shiva knows any. Personally I doubt it, but we'll see.

Yeah come to think of it, it sounds like Shiva has been totally misled on this issue. I mean it isn't rocket science, each Hebrew letter has a number.

@ignant666
I think what david is asking for is an instance where AC

Don't you think it's a bit silly to keep referring to me as 'david'? It's going to confuse any new lurkers for a start. You've made your point (some time ago)and i suggest you get over it.

Thanks.

Don’t you think it’s a bit silly to keep referring to me as ‘david’?

No.

If you say so.