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ianrons
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23/11/2008 10:31 am  

This being the "recommendations" section, and given this news story today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7744282.stm
I think it's high time John Lennon was recommended for canonization in the EGC, on the grounds of his having successfully stood up for rock 'n' roll against all comers (except the bloke who shot him). I'm sure Yoko would appreciate it, anyway.

My suggested dedication:

Sanctus Beatificus Johnus Lennonus, ante Inhabitantus Liverpudliensis, qui cum magnus dignitate in defensionis rockerus rollusque fit martyrionus, te salutamus in elongissime floridiensis ancientissime lingua incomprehensibilis, etc., etc.


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OKontrair
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23/11/2008 12:42 pm  

Ah! Those Pontiffs, how they pontificate.

What they are really up to is fascination theft. Attempting once again to toss their tawdry bundle of offerings into the elevator of someone else's prestige.

Lennon was right. And, compared to them, Lenin was right.

If the EGC is short of saints I'm surprised they haven't lit upon Joyce McKinney. Still on the run, still thumping policemen and now cloning dogs.

My dedication

Whata gallicus! Handcufficus Mormoni skipt der bailicus, bopped der plodicus zen productione da doggi syntheticus.

OK


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Walterfive
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23/11/2008 2:09 pm  

I suggested this to the Caliph 8 or 9 years ago, and he was receptive. He indicated that a case might be made...

However, when I broached the subject with Sabazius, (then T. Apiryon) he was rather dismissive. I gather that some people have wanted to make Jimmy Page a "Living Saint" too. Well, WTF? If he'd wanted to call himself OHO back in 1973 and claim his part in the publishing of "Secret Rituals", he could have gotten away with it, and the face of Thelema would be a rather different one today...

Oh well. Back before they codified such things, and folks were inserting the (now spurious) list of female Saints, I'd slip John in right before "an many a holy bard," and Brian Jones too, primarily for his effort in bringing the music of the Master Musicians of Jajouka out of Africa after 2000+ years. They're still celebrating the Lupercalia! The Night of Pan! Now *there* is a Thelemic contribution!

But as I say, the Caliph said that a case might be made... you're under auspices of International Grand Lodge, right? Go to it!!


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lashtal
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23/11/2008 2:41 pm  

I can feel a Poll coming on...

BTW, Walterfive, I realise you were being flippant, but I'd certainly propose Page as a Thelemic Saint. Or maybe we need another type of tribute: Knight Commander of the Order of Thelemic Endeavour (KC of the OTE). That sort of thing.

Hmmm, sounds like an administration job for LAShTAL.COM!

http://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Knights_Commander_of_the_Order_of_Thelemic_Endeavour

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Walterfive
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23/11/2008 3:14 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
I can feel a Poll coming on...

BTW, Walterfive, I realise you were being flippant, but I'd certainly propose Page as a Thelemic Saint. Or maybe we need another type of tribute: Knight Commander of the Order of Thelemic Endeavour (KC of the OTE). That sort of thing.

http://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Knights_Commander_of_the_Order_of_Thelemic_Endeavour

Well, only half-flippant, actually. Jimmy Page was no doubt in part responsible for bringing hundreds of thousands of folks now over the age of 40 to the ideas of Thelema... of course, so were the sensationalist rock journals of the day, that wrote dozens of inaccurate articles about Jimmy's so-called 'discipleship' to Aleister Crowley. But Jimmy figuratively whispered in our ear "Do What Thou Wilt... So Mote It Be" when he engraved those phrases in the run-off areas of the Led Zeppelin III LP,
(That's how you can spot a 1st edition, BTW) and many of us heard him, and started searching.


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kidneyhawk
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23/11/2008 3:36 pm  

I think it's high time John Lennon was recommended for canonization in the EGC

Magus Morrisson is already light years ahead of the programme.

He made Lennon a DEITY years ago in Invisibles # 1.

All you need is Love...one out of one Lon Milos agree.


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Walterfive
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23/11/2008 5:28 pm  

Morrison a Magus? That self-centered egotistic serial child molester?

Don't make me laugh! His only exposure to *any* mysteries came through the Wiccan Priestess he married and abandoned. Jimbo was a world-class Libertine, and I'll grant you that. But a Magus? Bwahahaha! It's a good thing for his legend he died when he did.


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lashtal
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23/11/2008 5:36 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
Morrison a Magus? That self-centered egotistic serial child molester?

Before the lawyers start swooping in for the kill, Walter, I think it's worth pointing out that Kidneyhawk is referring to Grant Morrison. And you -- quite clearly -- aren't.

8)

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Palamedes
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23/11/2008 8:11 pm  

Well, you guys seem to be very much aligned with Vatican's position on the issue:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/081123/entertainment/vatican_beatles


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 Anonymous
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23/11/2008 8:49 pm  
"Iskandar" wrote:
Well, you guys seem to be very much aligned with Vatican's position on the issue

It was the Vulcan's, er Vatican's, position that gave impetus to this thread, as seen above in the first post. That gave rise to all manner of wild cries and ecstatic nominations.

Although there appears to be no established criteria for becoming a Thelemic Saint, isn't it generally a rule (in other traditions) that one must demonstrate some sort of high-level illumination, or at least enact miracles somewhat beyond the mundane aspects of wild popularity and mass-hero-worship?

On the other hand, perhaps Madonna should be nominated for scarlet sainthood.


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Palamedes
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23/11/2008 9:52 pm  

Ooops, I obviously did not folow the link supplied by ianrons. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. 😳


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 Anonymous
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23/11/2008 11:02 pm  

Let me be the first to nominate the late Jhonn Balance.


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lashtal
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23/11/2008 11:09 pm  

No argument from me on that one...

But back to Lennon: is there any real evidence of a serious interest by Lennon in Thelema or Crowley? Answers on one side of A4, mentions of the cover of "Sgt Pepper" will result in a reduction in grade awarded...

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spike418
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23/11/2008 11:16 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
No argument from me on that one...

But back to Lennon: is there any real evidence of a serious interest by Lennon in Thelema or Crowley? Answers on one side of A4, mentions of the cover of "Sgt Pepper" will result in a reduction in grade awarded...

Bunch of vastly overated scousers.

And I was nearly lynched for saying that in Central Park

However. the oldies couldn't catch me πŸ‘Ώ


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Lucius
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24/11/2008 8:07 am  

I'd be interested to know whether there was a serious interest in Thelema there as well; the first thing that pops to mind is that they were the Beatles and "Northern" is a little boring for the name of your publishing company if you're not making a reference to Khephra the beetle.

I'd imagine someone like John Lennon would find himself in a similar philosophical position to Robert Anton Wilson and that even if there was a serious interest in Thelema and AC at some point, he diverged greatly from those ideas later on in his life.


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Aleisterion
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24/11/2008 8:56 am  

"I'd imagine someone like John Lennon would find himself in a similar philosophical position to Robert Anton Wilson and that even if there was a serious interest in Thelema and AC at some point, he diverged greatly from those ideas later on in his life."

Howso? You're speculating that there might've been serious interest --- we all know that, at the least, he found Aleister Crowley to be someone he liked --- but I'm curious as to why you think he might have "diverged greatly from those ideas"?


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thiebes
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24/11/2008 9:35 am  

OK, I would say something about arrogance, but come on, such a comment would only be tautological. This is the RCC we're talking about.

But now hold on. This is a PR effort, de facto. So... let me get this straight... no, seriously? The RCC is taking advantage of John Lennon's popularity, getting PR mileage out of him, in a public forgiveness for the fact that he claimed to be more popular than Jesus? Can it even get more ironic than that?

"Lennon told a British newspaper in 1966 - at the height of Beatlemania - that he did not know which would die out first, Christianity or rock and roll."

Guess we know who won that race. (Hint, it's not the ones who are sending off press releases about how they forgive John Lennon.)

Incidentally, if you think Lennon should be a Saint in EGC, maybe try writing up a nomination for his induction into the Order of the Lion. It's on Sabazius' site, you can google it I'm sure. I'd say that would be the first logical step.


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ianrons
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24/11/2008 11:45 am  
"Walterfive" wrote:
I suggested this to the Caliph 8 or 9 years ago, and he was receptive. He indicated that a case might be made...

Excellent! I shall try to get something together...

"Sphynx" wrote:
Although there appears to be no established criteria for becoming a Thelemic Saint, isn't it generally a rule (in other traditions) that one must demonstrate some sort of high-level illumination, or at least enact miracles somewhat beyond the mundane aspects of wild popularity and mass-hero-worship?

Lennon was clearly a musical genius, and could be classed along with St. Wagner in that respect; but his life and death was such that he could also go in as a martyr.

"Lucius" wrote:
the first thing that pops to mind is that they were the Beatles and "Northern" is a little boring for the name of your publishing company if you're not making a reference to Khephra the beetle.

A man appeared on a flaming pie, and said you are Beatles with an 'A'.

(He may have been joking, but "many a true word"...)


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2008 2:07 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
...is there any real evidence of a serious interest by Lennon in Thelema or Crowley?...

It requires dropping the word "serious" and following out this flimsy thread:

(1) Lennon was a member of the Beatles.
(2) The Beatles (for a while) were fans/disciples/chelas/adherents of the Maharishi.
(3) Crowley irreverently referred to Maharishi as a "greasy swami."
(4) Maharishi was not "the" greasy swami in the reference, but a vague linkage between him (and those like him) and the swami of Crowley's attention has been made by some Thelemites.

Thus the evidence is presented and is found lacking in support for Lennonization. A grade need not be awarded - its destined low-level designation is obvious.


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Patriarch156
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24/11/2008 3:00 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
Morrison a Magus? That self-centered egotistic serial child molester?

I have never heard that Him Morrisson were a child molestor, let alone serial. Care to elaborate?

I am also a bit unsure how much less self centered than John Lennon he were, the latter who were a violent man, known for being difficult and self centered, not to mention the fact that he beat his wife.

Not that either of this makes them unsuitable for canonisation, seeing that there are a lot of people like this on the saints list of the Gnostic Catholic Church, including Borgia.

I am however unsure how either of them transmitted the Gnosis to us their heirs.


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Michael Staley
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24/11/2008 3:27 pm  

Please don't elaborate on the allegation about Jim Morrison. As well as being so far off topic it may as well be on the moon, I don't think that Lashtal is an appropriate site for tawdry gossip about what some long-dead rock star may have got up to. I'm sure that there are private channels of communication that are more appropriate.

That aside, I agree with my young friend Patriarch156 in querying what it is about Lennon that makes him a candidate for inclusion in the roll-call of Gnostic Saints. I like the man's music, but I don't see how that elevates him to such hallowed ranks. If it goes ahead, I'll probably cancel my membership.

That's me characterised as a fuddy-duddy, then . . . I don't believe it!

Yours in the plangent wah-wah,

Michael.


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ianrons
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24/11/2008 3:53 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
is there any real evidence of a serious interest by Lennon in Thelema or Crowley?

I omitted to address this point. In fact, it's not necessary to show this, since as pointed out by Crowley one needn't be aware of Thelema to be a Thelemite, and the case of Samuel bar Aiwaz -- acknowledged by Crowley as a full member of A.'.A.'., i.e., a saint -- shows AC's own view of things.

"Patriarch156" wrote:
I am however unsure how either of them transmitted the Gnosis to us their heirs.

Through music -- which surely doesn't have to be overtly religious (in fact Imagine is anti-religious).


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Palamedes
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24/11/2008 4:31 pm  

I would be inclined to side with Patriarch 156 and Michael Staley in my reservations about Lennon's possible induction into Thelemic Sainthood. Please don't misunderstand me" The Beatles is one of my all-time favorite bands and there is no doubt in my mind about their genius and about the fact that in their music and irreverent, iconoclastic, and spontaneous behaviour John, Paul, George and Ringo DID express the spirit of Thelema. But the experience and transmission of the gnosis, with certainty not faith, based on the identification with one's secret self - I doubt that. To me this looks like confusing the planes (well, maybe I am confusing them too). If you ask me (and I know that nobody asks), I would say that Karl Gustav Jung is supposed to be added to the list: there is a life dedicated to exploration and transmission of the gnosis, with a capital g, if you know what I mean.


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ianrons
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24/11/2008 4:40 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
That aside, I agree with my young friend Patriarch156 in querying what it is about Lennon that makes him a candidate for inclusion in the roll-call of Gnostic Saints. I like the man's music, but I don't see how that elevates him to such hallowed ranks. If it goes ahead, I'll probably cancel my membership.

There was more to the man than his music, though -- and this I don't hear being discussed. There's not many people do things that make others want to murder them, especially if it really was a government hit. He was apparently regarded as extremely dangerous -- they tried to have him deported, of course; and given that the anti-war movement in the US is regarded as having been heavily sponsored by Russia, they may have regarded him as an enemy operative and hence gave themselves justification for his killing. At least, it's plausible. But that's not the point -- just an aside, really.

The point is that the various political stands he took, and his access to the global media, made him an important figure by the time of his death; however, I think whilst he may have been confused about politics in many ways, he did represent something greater than himself, and he represented it unselfishly. He used his fame for political ends, rather than simply lapping up the adoration and money. But the question for me comes down to whether or not he knew what he was doing, and had a vision that extended beyond national politics -- and I think he may well have done.

We live in an "age of celebrity", where hopeless desperadoes compete to be more outrageous than the last, and where fame is an end in itself. On the contrary, Lennon (in, e.g., "Watching the Wheels") talks about just relaxing and enjoying life, giving up the life of fame, whilst at the same time casually writing some of the most brilliant music we have. What's not to love?

I don't really see what more could have been asked of him, or what he didn't give. I don't think a saint is a saint because of the quality of their artistic output or "gnostic outpourings" (which in this case was exemplary), but the way they live and breathe with their work and give themselves up to life. It's an almost indefinable quality, but I think I perceive it in Lennon, and I think there are others who do too.

Paul McCartney, on the other hand, who after all co-wrote a lot of their songs, ended up making money supporting the Iraq war at that Superbowl, despite having claimed to be a pacifist. Yuck!

(As for Jung, he's another good candidate in my view; but it's not one or the other.)


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 Anonymous
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24/11/2008 6:22 pm  

My first two live concert experiences were the Beatles, in Los Angeles and San Diego. I must say that the ecstatic energy of those experiences was extraordinary, an atmosphere that would indeed be appropriate to Liber XV, on a very grand scale, if properly performed and received. I'm not certain if it was the Beatles themselves, or the nature and state of the audience, or the time in history, or myself; probably a unique combination of all of these in the same moment. A group religious experience of the truest, highest and rarest sort, when properly appreciated as such.

Oh, and pardon me Michael, but I also new Jim Morrison by very casual acquaintance. He used to buy beer for me and my school friends when we were underaged. I can attest that he did not sexually molest any of us, but did contribute to our 'delinquency' a bit. πŸ™‚


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gurugeorge
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24/11/2008 11:12 pm  

FWIW Motta mentioned the Beatles in passing as saints in one of his commentaries.

IMHO, it doesn't really matter whether anyone kowtows to, or is even aware of, the jargon, what counts is deeds. And the Beatles (along with a whole slew of people in the 60s) opened up the collective mind in a really powerful way. We are all a bit freer because of what they did. Of course they made mistakes (my understanding is that Lennon wasn't even a very nice guy till later in his life), but what they did was powerful - was magickal - irrespective of whether they toed the party line.

Toeing the party line is what got us into this mess (i.e. the clamping down by Roman Catholic orthodoxy on the spontaneous emissions of mystics in the early days of Christianity, the requirement to give lip service to the use of certain jargon terms).

Again, I remember that AC always thought of the artist as someone who could "finger the old school tie", and as a "natural" at what magickians strive to develop. Bringing stuff into the world that was never there before, inspiring stuff, is a sign of holiness, of being close to God - you have to be in a state of mind that's not a a million miles away from enlightenment to do good art anyway. I mean, you have to be in a "flow" state, which is a close next door neighbour to Samadhi. When not doing art, artists often take authorship of their work in an egotistical way, but if they're serious, when they're getting down and dirty and creating, they know that's not true, and that everything comes from one Source.


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 12:46 am  

Excellent post, gurugeorge -- it sums up my views on artistry; but ultimately I come back to his "martyrdom" and can't help thinking that's essentially an Old Aeon formula for sainthood, but I also suspect he was taken advantage of by his girlfriend which is probably very Thelemic if one remembers Crowley πŸ˜†


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Michael Staley
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25/11/2008 11:45 am  

Martyrdom? I doubt it. I noted your suggestion earlier in this thread that the intelligence service might be bhind Lennon's death. Do you think that the secret services were behind that chap who shot Reagan, thinking it would impress Jodie Foster? There was little reason for the intelligence services to kill Lennon. At the time of his death, the peak of his popularity was probably passed anyway. Until the album 'Double Fantasy', he'd spent the past few years away from the public gaze, bringing up his child.

Lennon seems to have been shot by a nobody who was deluded enough to think that he could become a somebody by killing a high-profile star. One of Chapman's arguments in his parole application a few years ago was that if John Lennon were still alive, he would have been campaigning for his release.

Much as I like Lennon's music, I don't agree that he should be canonised, and I'm finding this thread increasingly absurd.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 1:27 pm  

The fact of his death having been the result of his life's work makes him a martyr. It is irrelevant who did it, just as it's irrelevant for the Roman Catholic communion whether or not a particular saint was bumped off by a Muslim or another Christian.

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Much as I like Lennon's music, I don't agree that he should be canonised, and I'm finding this thread increasingly absurd.

You have chosen to focus on one aspect (an aspect I carefully marked as "just an aside") and make it the focus of a seemingly rather information-free tirade. I have no interest in assessing the likelihood of government involvement in the death of this high-profile political figure who had spoken against Nixon and the Vietnam war and who had, in the month before his death. I am not sure what he would have had to have done to give good enough "reason for the intelligence services to kill Lennon", but I know people can get killed for a lot less.

Now, I was a little unsure about the implications of the "martyr" formula before the thread took this turn, but to return to that topic I wonder what people's views are. I think in one sense it's totally fair to make someone a saint if -- in the course of their duties to Babalon -- they get topped. Everything to recommend a person of that type. However, I don't want to encourage future martyrs because I think the Horus formula is more about staying alive to rain down wrath on one's enemies.


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IAO131
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25/11/2008 4:39 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
The fact of his death having been the result of his life's work makes him a martyr. It is irrelevant who did it, just as it's irrelevant for the Roman Catholic communion whether or not a particular saint was bumped off by a Muslim or another Christian.

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Much as I like Lennon's music, I don't agree that he should be canonised, and I'm finding this thread increasingly absurd.

You have chosen to focus on one aspect (an aspect I carefully marked as "just an aside") and make it the focus of a seemingly rather information-free tirade. I have no interest in assessing the likelihood of government involvement in the death of this high-profile political figure who had spoken against Nixon and the Vietnam war and who had, in the month before his death. I am not sure what he would have had to have done to give good enough "reason for the intelligence services to kill Lennon", but I know people can get killed for a lot less.

Now, I was a little unsure about the implications of the "martyr" formula before the thread took this turn, but to return to that topic I wonder what people's views are. I think in one sense it's totally fair to make someone a saint if -- in the course of their duties to Babalon -- they get topped. Everything to recommend a person of that type. However, I don't want to encourage future martyrs because I think the Horus formula is more about staying alive to rain down wrath on one's enemies.

Youre really into those government conspiracies lately arent you?

Does the fact that Lennon's murderer was delusional and psychotic really mean he died as a 'result of his life's work' and therefore is a martyr'? Dont you think youre stretching that?

I still cant see how Lennon should be a saint in contrast to many others nor do I see why this is important in the least beyond recognizing the people you find influential in your own life. (to all people, not just ianrons)

IAO131


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kidneyhawk
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25/11/2008 4:53 pm  

I think the Horus formula is more about staying alive to rain down wrath on one's enemies.

I thought it was more about Doing One's Will and Thelema and stuff...


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 Anonymous
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25/11/2008 5:30 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:

I think the Horus formula is more about staying alive to rain down wrath on one's enemies.

I thought it was more about Doing One's Will and Thelema and stuff...

and also, of course, removing impediments to doing one's Will, and extending that courtesy to your brothers and sisters, if you Will...


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 5:41 pm  
"IAO131" wrote:
Youre really into those government conspiracies lately arent you?

Well, yes there has been a lot of that lately. But this is the Home of the Aleister Crowley Society, so what do you expect? If there's a le Carre Society (surely not!) then it would be odd not to talk about spying, etc., occasionally. I'm not pushing my interpretation on anyone, but I do take exception to the dismissive mode of criticism.

"IAO131" wrote:
Does the fact that Lennon's murderer was delusional and psychotic really mean he died as a 'result of his life's work' and therefore is a martyr'? Dont you think youre stretching that?

I interpret your question to resolve to whether it was Lennon's "work" that resulted in his death, or just a delusional person's arguably false perception of Lennon that prompted his killing. Taking a mechanistic viewpoint, everything Lennon had done prior to that moment led to him standing outside the Dakota building that day, so my answer is: yes, it was his "work" (i.e., his actions, his karma) that resulted in his death, if one looks at it from Lennon's perspective, which I have attempted to do in order to assess his qualifications for canonization. Equally, it was the sum of Chapman's "work" (in a different, dark sense) that led him to kill Lennon at that point in time.

Besides, it is clearly not possible to assess Lennon's work from another person's lens, if you start by admitting that that person is "delusional" -- else you could say that Hitler was an excellent leader because Himmler had a really great working relationship with him. It doesn't matter what was going through Chapman's head when he pulled the trigger, it matters that it was Lennon who was shot for being Lennon. i.e., necessarily Lennon was not shot because he was Roger Rabbit, nor was Roger Rabbit shot because he was Lennon.

Lennon was shot because he was Lennon; and because he was Lennon, it was Lennon's work that led him to death. Q.E.D.

I would argue that anyone who is killed is a martyr to their life's work -- good or bad. That includes soldiers. But that is my interpretation of the term "martyr", and doesn't necessarily help us in assessing sanctity. It is whether their life or "work" was for "Babalon" -- universal life -- that is in question.

"IAO131" wrote:
I still cant see how Lennon should be a saint in contrast to many others nor do I see why this is important in the least beyond recognizing the people you find influential in your own life. (to all people, not just ianrons)

This seems to be reliant on the idea that there's a limited amount of sainthood that the world can dispense, which is patently false according to the premise upon which the concept is based in Thelema -- universal life. And furthermore, it is absurd to say he would be a saint "in contrast" to anyone else, rather than according to what he -- and no-one else -- did in his life that he gave up to Babalon.


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 5:51 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
I think the Horus formula is more about staying alive to rain down wrath on one's enemies.
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I thought it was more about Doing One's Will and Thelema and stuff...

Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them.

I think he means it!


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kidneyhawk
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25/11/2008 6:07 pm  

Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them

I saw that coming as soon as I hit the "submit" button on my previous post.

Returning to Camlion's observation (which I absolutely agree with), there is a most definitely a warrior aspect to Horus. This expresses in places as a merciless approach to "enemies." However, I tend to read the word "first" as indicative of a process whereby Horus manifests...clearing the grounds before tending them. More intrapsychic and alchemical. This is not to relegate "War" to a wholly internal state of affairs whilst trying to make it fit with some external pacifism. But HOW we approach the "Wars" we are engaged in, on any level, is relevent to the True Will which theoretically reflects the proper course of action from a myriad of possibilities in any given situation.

Obviously we've seen the juvenile, OZ-waving enamorment with justifying violence (or simple rudeness) intrude upon these forums before. My response, Ian, was to indicate that the issues of combat (mental, physical, etc) are related to a vision which isn't simply about taking down one's perceived opponents but rather the maximum expansion and fullfillment of one's nature as it moves in a larger continuum. This may express in ways which are subtle or kind as much as it does it with a fiery fist.

LOL-"Imagine All The People..." πŸ˜‰


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OKontrair
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25/11/2008 6:15 pm  

"Give Peace a Chance" probably not on Horus's CD player then.


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 6:20 pm  

Yes, I generally agree with those sentiments Kyle. The warlike aspect, to me, could be interpreted as the shepherd who's prepared to kill wolves where necessary. Sometimes the shepherd needs to go out to hunt down wolves who've shown a predisposition to attacking the flock; but if the wolves simply understood that he'd do this (first of all) then they wouldn't dare come close. Of course, the ultimate development of this is that the wolf becomes the sheepdog... πŸ˜‰

"OKontrair" wrote:
"Give Peace a Chance" probably not on Horus's CD player then.

Yeah, someone had to mention that... and wasn't Tim Leary at the recording, or is that just someone who looks like him on the Wikipedia page?


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 Anonymous
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25/11/2008 7:25 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
Yes, I generally agree with those sentiments Kyle. The warlike aspect, to me, could be interpreted as the shepherd who's prepared to kill wolves where necessary. Sometimes the shepherd needs to go out to hunt down wolves who've shown a predisposition to attacking the flock; but if the wolves simply understood that he'd do this (first of all) then they wouldn't dare come close. Of course, the ultimate development of this is that the wolf becomes the sheepdog... πŸ˜‰

"OKontrair" wrote:
"Give Peace a Chance" probably not on Horus's CD player then.

Yeah, someone had to mention that... and wasn't Tim Leary at the recording, or is that just someone who looks like him on the Wikipedia page?

Yes, St. Tim was there. Agreed about the wolves.


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sonofthestar
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25/11/2008 8:42 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

We could say though, that the mind that β€œimagines no religion”---has declared war on, and won,
over that which has proven itself a curse (the organized religions of the slave gods).
Such a mind would then be fee to experience true spirituality---free from the dogmatic dross which
hindered it.
This would bring forth the β€œPeace” of understanding---won through the waging and winning,
of such war.

Love is the law, love under will.


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Los
 Los
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25/11/2008 9:43 pm  

Hmmm...what do you think Lennon himself would think of this idea?

I imagine he'd find the idea of himself as a "saint" (of anything) pretty amusing.


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amadan-De
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25/11/2008 10:02 pm  

If it is Ian's Will to see Lennon as a 'Saint' (Thelemic or otherwise) surely he is free to do so whether any individual or committee agrees or not?
Or am I missing a sub-clause to "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" ?


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 10:11 pm  

sonofthestar@Gmail.com: ...or perhaps "the peace that passeth understanding", referred to Kether? That's what I see in the lyrics -- and the white room. It could end up being prophetic, like Leonard Cohen's Democracy turned out to be.

Los: I think Lennon would probably have to beat down a reaction of anger before being amused by the idea. Or am I being too kind to the man?

amadan-De: Well, it's about EGC actually invoking him in the Gnostic Mass, and that's quite a different thing.


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kidneyhawk
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25/11/2008 10:52 pm  

it's about EGC actually invoking him in the Gnostic Mass

Which, I suppose, would really make the Beatles come crawling out of the cakes...


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ianrons
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25/11/2008 10:59 pm  

Where do you get them from? πŸ˜‰


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 Anonymous
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26/11/2008 5:17 am  

Well, as I reported above, I did witness an extraordinarily magical event when I saw Lennon and the Beatles, twice.

Politically, I always saw Lennon as a leftist simpleton, very simple.

He was no longer a threat to any government when he died.

He was amazed that he could walk around NYC without security and not be bothered, so he moved there. (He walked openly there, not just from limo to door, as on the occasion of his murder), He was mistaken. Anyone familiar with NYC would know better, he was ill-advised or didn't listen. NYC is a mostly a very dangerous shithole to walk around uninformed or unarmed.

His assassin was a victim of the slave gods, a typical one gone berserk, plain and simple. He knew not what he did.

Saints? That we might be asking for consensus in this forum, let alone a nod from HB, seems rather odd to me. It implies that this forum or HB is better suited to recognize a Gnostic saint than we are individually. Do I misunderstand the very personal nature of Gnosis? I see the idea of making a collective of it unjustified, at present. That will take more work and less wishful thinking.


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kidneyhawk
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26/11/2008 3:38 pm  

Saints? That we might be asking for consensus in this forum, let alone a nod from HB, seems rather odd to me. It implies that this forum or HB is better suited to recognize a Gnostic saint than we are individually. Do I misunderstand the very personal nature of Gnosis?

Well, you get a nod from KH. πŸ˜‰

If I might share a small something...

When performing Star Ruby I grew to envision the Teletarchai in the West as a massive rolling wave, a current, composed of all those who have fed and are feeding my growth and direction...obviously, my own "Teletarchai," called forth in that rite, are going to be as immensely personal as anyone else's. In fact, even if you or I "compared notes" and laughingly observe that we've got a "roll call" with much in common, our perspective and experience with regards to those "Names" will still be quite different.

One Man's Saint Lennon may be another Man's Teletarch. And another Man's Teletarch Lennon may be yet another Man's song on the radio.

Do What Thou Wilt.

πŸ™‚


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amadan-De
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26/11/2008 10:01 pm  

it's about EGC actually invoking him in the Gnostic Mass

..which would make the EGC a non-Thelemic body since there has to be agreement from an authority on high to allow beatification? (or it is a grouping of Thelemites that share the common Will to subordinate their individual Wills in this area to the decisions of the appointed authority - either way it makes criticism of the Roman Catholics a bit disingenuous.)

"This month I are bein' mostly iconoclastic"

P.S. re:

the Beatles come crawling out of the cakes

I haven't forgotten about my quest for info from the BM Ian and will post accordingly when I can crowbar the time to do it justice...


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ianrons
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26/11/2008 10:20 pm  

Camlion,

"Camlion" wrote:
Politically, I always saw Lennon as a leftist simpleton, very simple.

Erm... http://lyricwiki.org/John_Lennon:Working_Class_Hero seems to reflect the times he went through pretty well. But the term "simple" shouldn't be taken as necessarily bad. Folks like Jesus were very "simple" in the same way. "Do what thou wilt" is very "simple". Truth tends to be so, in my experience; and it's only lies that require for themselves a patina of complexity... but this is the message of "deepen not a superficies", upon which Crowley remarks rather belligerently: "It is useless to seek the soul of things beneath their surface; for their surface is their soul!".

He was a simple soul -- deluded, I think; and vexed, confused; ultimately murdered. A tragic story of a creative genius struggling to comprehend the world, and then to order it according to his vision. A true saint, in fact.

"Camlion" wrote:
He was no longer a threat to any government when he died.

There are two ways of reading this. Was that intentional?

"Camlion" wrote:
His assassin was a victim of the slave gods, a typical one gone berserk, plain and simple. He knew not what he did.

For sure, he didn't know what was going on. If he were sane, he wouldn't have done it. That much is obvious... but without going into the minutiae, the modus operandi is quite familiar, isn't it? But obviously it couldn't have been the CIA, because as everyone knows they can only operate outside of the US. I think I read that on Slashdot. But anyway, it says so on their website, so it must be true. The point is largely irrelevant to the general point about sainthood.

"Camlion" wrote:
Saints? That we might be asking for consensus in this forum, let alone a nod from HB, seems rather odd to me.

"We" aren't asking for anything. I raised the topic to garner opinions and attitudes, to challenge or support my initial position that Lennon is worthy of canonization. Frater Hymenaeus Beta can do exactly as he Wills regarding OTO or EGC, and even if he were to agree with the notion it would seem unlikely, don't you think, that he would respond directly to a forum discussion? But that wasn't why I raised the topic, although it is a facet of it. I raised the topic because I wanted to consider the idea myself, whether it held water for me as a concept I could live with in the Temple. I came in with no pre-conceived ideas, merely question marks. My final decision, from me personally which no-one else has to agree with, is that he can't be canonized unless and until the "issues" around the shooting are explained satisfactorily. But this is, in a sense, why I think he is a saint already: his work and his will are being manifest by those who question the "official story", and who listen to, enjoy and appreciate his music. Either he's in purgatory, or those who ordered his killing are. And no, I don't care one whit for the rabid denials... I would say: Turn off the noise, and let the truth percolate down, as it inevitably will, in the fulness of time. With that will and desire to "think anew and act anew", I would love to see Lennon on the list of saints in due course, to be invoked as someone who helped bring about change for the better in his own small way.

"Camlion" wrote:
It implies that this forum or HB is better suited to recognize a Gnostic saint than we are individually. Do I misunderstand the very personal nature of Gnosis? I see the idea of making a collective of it unjustified, at present. That will take more work and less wishful thinking.

In order for a saint to be recognized in EGC globally, it would require HB's say-so. Respecting that, what you do in your church is a matter for your own considered judgment. I find your confusion of "Gnostic" with "Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica" to be total arse, and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself!


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ianrons
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26/11/2008 10:26 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
it's about EGC actually invoking him in the Gnostic Mass
"amadan-De" wrote:
..which would make the EGC a non-Thelemic body since there has to be agreement from an authority on high to allow beatification? (or it is a grouping of Thelemites that share the common Will to subordinate their individual Wills in this area to the decisions of the appointed authority - either way it makes criticism of the Roman Catholics a bit disingenuous.)

"This month I are bein' mostly iconoclastic"

Do we look bovvered? πŸ˜‰

"amadan-De" wrote:
P.S. re:

the Beatles come crawling out of the cakes

I haven't forgotten about my quest for info from the BM Ian and will post accordingly when I can crowbar the time to do it justice...

Ah, excellent -- looking forward to it! πŸ™‚


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ianrons
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26/11/2008 10:39 pm  

Thanks Kyle, your response cheered me immensely, and your "nod" is very encouraging πŸ™‚ I may lay a memorial token at the Dakota when I get to New York.

Just watch out for those Crows in the West πŸ˜‰


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