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 Anonymous
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The only Gnostic Saint to have been officially added to the original list is William Blake, based on a discovered writing by Aleister Crowley who described him as such.

`


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Palamedes
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Giordano Bruno has also been officially added. See the Introduction to the new edition of Crowley/Adams' Astrology.


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michaelclarke18
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I disagree. The sangha, communitas, egregore, whichever term you prefer is important. The sense of lineage, of tradition, of fellowship, is important. Why would it be a chain to state these people are our spiritual predecessors and we honour their lives and their ideas? More importantly, there are chains of tradition as there are chains of isolation.

I'm not sure you are cut out for Thelema. You seem to want to create monuments.


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Walterfive
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"Patriarch156" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
Morrison a Magus? That self-centered egotistic serial child molester?

I have never heard that Him Morrisson were a child molestor, let alone serial. Care to elaborate?

Jim liked to bugger teenie-bopper groupies. Ages of consent vary from State to State, but Jim liked his girls young, and they were often younger than the law allowed, and sodomy laws were still on the books in most States in the U.S.A. He was hardly alone among rock celebrities in his jail-bait predilictions, (Jerry Lee Lewis immediately comes to mind, as does Mark Stein of the Vanilla Fudge, who made an 8mm film of a 15-year old groupie being juked with a mud shark by one of Led Zeppelin's roadies in 1969, not to mention every member of Grand Funk Railroad and most of the Eagles, just to name a few).

One of Jim's roadies wrote a tell-all book... must have been more than 25 years ago, after the Danny Sugerman biography, that told a lot of dirty little details about "Saint Jim." So much for all that hippie peace & love bullshit. What I've read makes me conclude that Jim Morrison was a reprehensible bigamist, woman-beater, and child molester who had little respect for anyone other than himself.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 53 years ago
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"Walterfive" wrote:
"Patriarch156" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
Morrison a Magus? That self-centered egotistic serial child molester?

I have never heard that Him Morrisson were a child molestor, let alone serial. Care to elaborate?

Jim liked to bugger teenie-bopper groupies. Ages of consent vary from State to State, but Jim liked his girls young, and they were often younger than the law allowed, and sodomy laws were still on the books in most States in the U.S.A. He was hardly alone among rock celebrities in his jail-bait predilictions, (Jerry Lee Lewis immediately comes to mind, as does Mark Stein of the Vanilla Fudge, who made an 8mm film of a 15-year old groupie being juked with a mud shark by one of Led Zeppelin's roadies in 1969, not to mention every member of Grand Funk Railroad and most of the Eagles, just to name a few).

One of Jim's roadies wrote a tell-all book... must have been more than 25 years ago, after the Danny Sugerman biography, that told a lot of dirty little details about "Saint Jim." So much for all that hippie peace & love bullshit. What I've read makes me conclude that Jim Morrison was a reprehensible bigamist, woman-beater, and child molester who had little respect for anyone other than himself.

As the poet said: 'Love peace and harmony, very nice: but maybe in the next world.'


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Walterfive
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"ianrons" wrote:
Yes, I generally agree with those sentiments Kyle. The warlike aspect, to me, could be interpreted as the shepherd who's prepared to kill wolves where necessary. Sometimes the shepherd needs to go out to hunt down wolves who've shown a predisposition to attacking the flock; but if the wolves simply understood that he'd do this (first of all) then they wouldn't dare come close. Of course, the ultimate development of this is that the wolf becomes the sheepdog... 😉

But there's only three reasons that Shepherds tend Sheep.
1. To fleece them
2. To fuck them
3. To lead them to the slaughterhouse, because they're too stupid to find their way to there themselves.

Very rare is the Shepherd who tends a flock simply out of his love for the quadrupedal ruminants. The Sheepdog is a Free Wolf who has been bred to be a Slave, serving his Master, the Shepherd. As St. Lenny said: "Good men can and should exist, but I'll fry their ass if they put me on the Jury."


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Walterfive
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Personally, I'd nominate Aldous Huxley, Albert Hoffman, and Timothy Leary for their contributions in the expansion of human conciousness and spirituality in the New Aeon.


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Keith418
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“'I dabbled in so-called politics in the late Sixties and Seventies more out of guilt than anything,' he revealed. 'Guilt for being rich, and guilt thinking that perhaps love and peace isn’t enough and you have to go and get shot or something, or get punched in the face, to prove I’m one of the people. I was doing it against my instincts.'”

- JL

More :

http://www.amconmag.com/blog/stop-imagining/

"He who prides himself upon his altruism is either deceiving himself or wishing to deceive others: all deception, even in the most innocent, is a waste of time and a source of confusion."

- AC

Notice how he points to his sense of guilt as the motivation. What happens when we stop feeling guilt? If there is "no grace" and there is "no guilt" then what happens?


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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"Keith418" wrote:
Notice how he points to his sense of guilt as the motivation. What happens when we stop feeling guilt? If there is "no grace" and there is "no guilt" then what happens?

I have no idea. Please, do tell us - doubtless we're all agog.


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Azidonis
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"MichaelStaley" wrote:
I have no idea. Please, do tell us - doubtless we're all agog.

I lol'd. 🙂


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Keith418
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What's interesting about Lennon's observation is, in part, his admission of guilt as a liberal motivator. Many of the people I know say they see this in liberals all the time, but the liberals tend to deny it - when they aren't jokingly referring to themselves as "guilty liberals." Lennon, at least, did not continue to go along with this guilt trip. Christians feel guilty about their "sins" and liberals feel guilty about their "sins." This is how we can see Judeo-Christianity influencing the development of left-liberal ideology. It's just Judeo-Christianity in a new disguise - the feelings of guilt are still there.

I think, if anything, we should consider Lennon's recantations as a in keeping with the Thelemic spirit. His giving up on liberal-guilt is something I suspect Crowley would applaud.


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einDoppelganger
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"Keith418" wrote:
What's interesting about Lennon's observation is, in part, his admission of guilt as a liberal motivator. Many of the people I know say they see this in liberals all the time, but the liberals tend to deny it - when they aren't jokingly referring to themselves as "guilty liberals." Lennon, at least, did not continue to go along with this guilt trip. Christians feel guilty about their "sins" and liberals feel guilty about their "sins." This is how we can see Judeo-Christianity influencing the development of left-liberal ideology. It's just Judeo-Christianity in a new disguise - the feelings of guilt are still there.

I think, if anything, we should consider Lennon's recantations as a in keeping with the Thelemic spirit. His giving up on liberal-guilt is something I suspect Crowley would applaud.

Hail the new right!


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michaelclarke18
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If you check out the interviews with Lennon throughout the 70s, he comes across as something of a sociopath...

*runs away*


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einDoppelganger
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"Walterfive" wrote:
"Patriarch156" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
Morrison a Magus? That self-centered egotistic serial child molester?

I have never heard that Him Morrisson were a child molestor, let alone serial. Care to elaborate?

Jim liked to bugger teenie-bopper groupies. Ages of consent vary from State to State, but Jim liked his girls young, and they were often younger than the law allowed, and sodomy laws were still on the books in most States in the U.S.A. He was hardly alone among rock celebrities in his jail-bait predilictions, (Jerry Lee Lewis immediately comes to mind, as does Mark Stein of the Vanilla Fudge, who made an 8mm film of a 15-year old groupie being juked with a mud shark by one of Led Zeppelin's roadies in 1969, not to mention every member of Grand Funk Railroad and most of the Eagles, just to name a few).

One of Jim's roadies wrote a tell-all book... must have been more than 25 years ago, after the Danny Sugerman biography, that told a lot of dirty little details about "Saint Jim." So much for all that hippie peace & love bullshit. What I've read makes me conclude that Jim Morrison was a reprehensible bigamist, woman-beater, and child molester who had little respect for anyone other than himself.

You know, Walter I have never associated Jim or The Doors with the peace and love movement. I think it is why I was so attracted to them when I found them as a kid (via the Sugarman bio). Morrison was a decadent to the bone - obsessed with Rimbaud, sex, violence, the occult and outsider. While most folks were singing anti war anthems he was actively trying to apply the theories of Antonin Artaud to rock performance, invoking incest in pop music, and channeling some "noble savage" idealized American Indian shaman archetype, and writing billboard hits about murder, drowning, fire, demons, and destruction....

I always thought the Doors, in no small degree, represented a bit of the 1969 zeitgeist that eventually manifested in so much Southern California bloodshed. Morrison was such an influence on early punk - especially in SoCal via folks like The Gun Club.

anyway - just my 2 cents. The most despicable Jim was, the more in keeping he was with his desire to emulate Rimbaud... too bad his poetry was such shit by comparison.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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"Keith418" wrote:
What's interesting about Lennon's observation is, in part, his admission of guilt as a liberal motivator. Many of the people I know say they see this in liberals all the time, but the liberals tend to deny it - when they aren't jokingly referring to themselves as "guilty liberals."

I'm happy to describe myself as liberal. I don't feel any of this guilt with which you and your buddies insist that liberals are riddled, nor do any of my liberal friends so far as I'm aware.


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Keith418
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"In this connection there was also the point that I was anxious to prove that spiritual progress did not depend on religious or moral codes, but was like any other science. Magick would yield its secrets to the infidel and the libertine, just as one does not have to be a churchwarden in order to discover a new kind of orchid."

- Crowley

In other words, you don't have to be PC liberal-leftist to be a great magician. You can even disdain those values and still be amazing - so much so that PC lefty-liberals will continue to be invested in you and your work, despite how much they claim to oppose your beliefs.

This is also true - obviously - for musicians and artists. Wagner, another Gnostic saint, would not be seen now - by PC liberals - as a "good person", but even many of the people who despise his ideas and opinions revere his music. I think we need to see Lennon in the same light. His "sins" - how important are they really?

On the other hand, the people people with liberal-left ideologies have a hard time admitting that one can be a great artist, musician, and magician without subscribing to any of their moralistic beliefs and agendas. To make this admission devalues their values. I suspect this is why Crowley's amoral observations here, no matter how true they might be, get so little play. In the time that he was alive, there lived many, many people who were more PC and "moral" than Crowley. Yet we all seem to find ourselves here on this board and not over on boards dedicated to those "good" or "better" people. I think this says quite a bit.


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Michael Staley
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"Keith418" wrote:
In other words, you don't have to be PC liberal-leftist to be a great magician. You can even disdain those values and still be amazing

Who are these people who allege that you need to be "PC-liberal-leftist" in order to be a great magician? Any chance that they might have a day-pass out of your imagination?

"Keith418" wrote:
Wagner, another Gnostic saint, would not be seen now - by PC liberals - as a "good person", but even many of the people who despise his ideas and opinions revere his music.

I've no doubt that's the case. So what?

"Keith418" wrote:
On the other hand, the people with liberal-left ideologies have a hard time admitting that one can be a great artist, musician, and magician without subscribing to any of their moralistic beliefs and agendas..

I don't like Wagner's beliefs, but I have no problem in recognising his artistic achievements.

You really are obsessed with these "PC-liberal-leftist" bogeymen, aren't you?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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"MichaelStaley" wrote:
You really are obsessed with these "PC-liberal-leftist" bogeymen, aren't you?

Excuse me, but I have become lost in this maze, mainly due to my ignorance of the term "PC."

WTF is a PC ?

Public Conservative?
Polymorphous Cohabitor?

I know it stands for "Personal Computer," which of course is the Borg technology, the instrument of the silicon-based Black Lodge. But, surely that's not what it means here.

I always had trouble knowing left from right, but I have the capacity to internally know the points of the compass. Will this help me to understand?

And anyway, what about Lennon? Is he a saint or a sinner? I need to know that too - so I know who to pray to, in the hour of my need. Hourly. Now that the Temple of Ma'at has been razed.

.....................


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Keith418
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I'm not the person saying JL should be disqualified from sainthood for his non-PC "sins." The people ready to condemn him, and Crowley, are the ones revealing their own "bogyman" problems. People judge Crowley's morality from a liberal-left POV all over the place on this board, in the same way they evidence great hostility at anyone who suggests some of his more "politically incorrect" ideas may be, in fact, sound - such as his criticisms of democracy, equality, etc. I think their judgments, and the anger directed at those who agree with him, are what's revealing.

The Thelemic community says it believes in "diversity" but anyone who deviates from PC orthodoxy (a belief in the values of equality, democracy, anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc.), an orthodoxy established and maintained by secular, non-Thelemic authorities, is immediately attacked. Rather than a multiplicity of truly different perspectives, we see an alarming degree of conformity. I suspect that this kind of iron-clad thinking, which is very dependent on guilt-trips and accusations of a kind of "secular sinning", is what retards the community's progress and, ironically, keeps it more dependent on thinkers like Crowley than it needs to be.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 53 years ago
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PC = Politically Correct. I have no idea what bogeyman sits in judgment of this correctness but that's what it stands for.

Bill Maher had a talk show on a major network called "Politically Incorrect" and got fired for saying something politically incorrect on it. Now he's on cable.


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Azidonis
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How did a thread on Lennon's Sainthood turn into a further rant on politics/spill over from the fascism thread?


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amadan-De
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Apparently, in common with most crusades, the desire to smight the wrong-thinking 'PC' infidels knows no borders.


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einDoppelganger
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"Keith418" wrote:
I'm not the person saying JL should be disqualified from sainthood for his non-PC "sins." The people ready to condemn him, and Crowley, are the ones revealing their own "bogyman" problems. People judge Crowley's morality from a liberal-left POV all over the place on this board, in the same way they evidence great hostility at anyone who suggests some of his more "politically incorrect" ideas may be, in fact, sound - such as his criticisms of democracy, equality, etc. I think their judgments, and the anger directed at those who agree with him, are what's revealing.

The Thelemic community says it believes in "diversity" but anyone who deviates from PC orthodoxy (a belief in the values of equality, democracy, anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc.), an orthodoxy established and maintained by secular, non-Thelemic authorities, is immediately attacked. Rather than a multiplicity of truly different perspectives, we see an alarming degree of conformity. I suspect that this kind of iron-clad thinking, which is very dependent on guilt-trips and accusations of a kind of "secular sinning", is what retards the community's progress and, ironically, keeps it more dependent on thinkers like Crowley than it needs to be.


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Azidonis
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"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Hilarious picture

Thanks for the lols.


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Shiva
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"zardoz" wrote:
PC = Politically Correct. I have no idea what bogeyman sits in judgment of this correctness but that's what it stands for.

Yes, I understand. Thank you. I am more likely to be "PI" so I missed the obvious.

I believe this "PC" stuff started when I was a kid. Black people were formally called "Negros" (negr- means "black"), but some (of them?) objected and so the official title became "black." After a while, I heard they were insulted and then they became encyclopedicly-called "African-Americans." I don't know what they were called elsewhere - "African-Englishmen?" I thought that was the end of of it, then...

I enrolled in Oriental Medicine school where the art was called Oriental Medicine. Then somebody decided that "Oriental" was a pejorative term and insisted the name be changed to "Asian Medicine." And it actually was, in many schools and clinics, because they wanted to be PC.

Pardon me if I laugh or am confused. You can call me "white," or "Caucasian" (it's the Caucasus Mountains in Georgia from where the name derives), or "Whitey," or "Honkey." I'll answer to any or all. I mean, a color's a color and a direction's a direction (Orient = East).

I suppose when Crowley wrote of Krishnamurti, "He's a nigger," he was PC ("in his time," they say), but today he'd be lynched.

"Keith418" wrote:
The Thelemic community says it believes in "diversity" but anyone who deviates from PC orthodoxy (a belief in the values of equality, democracy, anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc.), an orthodoxy established and maintained by secular, non-Thelemic authorities, is immediately attacked.

I wonder which "Thelemic Community" is being referenced, and who the spokesman is?

Personally, I really don't think everyone's equal (except in an ultimate way); I know that democracy is a "fatal folly," just like AC said (unless it's really a pure democracy, with a fully-informed AND QUALIFIED votership, and the "representatives" were gotten out of the way; even then there'll be trouble); I would not like my daughter to marry a man of another race (if I had a daughter, which I don't); I believe in the difference between the sexes (I can see it in people and my little dogs too); Etc? What etc? You mean there's more?

OK, I see the light. I'm not PC by the "Thelemic Community's" definition.

But as Zardoz indicated, it's hard to tell which bogeyman, er Thelemic Leader, has said these things and established their "correctness."

I guess it's all based on not letting there be any difference between any one thing and any other thing."

Or maybe this Thelemic Community is a fantasy, like Heaven, and the Kingdom of God, and the Aeon of Ma'at.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 53 years ago
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"alamantra" wrote:
Are there any significant synchronicities or coincidences that can be rendered in an objective manner that demonstrate an ongoing gnosis or spiritual revelation in John Lennon’s life?

Premonitions of his death:

In the beginning of the song, Come Together, Lennon says, “shoot me.”

“Christ you know it aint easy. You know how hard it can be. The way things are going, they’re gonna crucify me.”

“Rocky Raccoon: names the place (Dakota) and manner (but Daniel was hot, he drew first and shot and Rocky collapsed in the corner.) of Lennon’s death. Further, the song makes mention of Gideon’s Bible. Before leaving the hotel, John Lennon’s killer, opened the bible to the Book of John and wrote the word “Lennon.”

“He opened the Bible in his hotel room to the Book of John and added "Lennon" to it. He bought a new copy of "The Catcher in the Rye," and wrote in it, "This is my statement," above the title on the title page.”
http://archive.desertdispatch.com/2005/113379126891387.html

There is a web of synchronicity around Lennon's death. Rosemary's Baby has a moment where there is a blood-splattered Beetle outside the front of the Dakota building. Mark Chapman saw Mia Farrow the day he killed John Lennon. Lennon and Farrow were in India together where he wrote songs for the White Album, interpreted by Charlie Manson to justify murdering the pregnant Sharon Tate, wife of Roman Polanski who directed Rosemary's Baby.


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 Anonymous
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Andrew Woodhouse (the baby of RB) was born 25 June 1966. On that day the Beatles had a number one hit with Paperback Writer. The flipside was Rain, the first use of "evil" backwards tapes. IRA LEVIN = EVIL RAIN!


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 Anonymous
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"VRST" wrote:
Andrew Woodhouse (the baby of RB) was born 25 June 1966. On that day the Beatles had a number one hit with Paperback Writer. The flipside was Rain, the first use of "evil" backwards tapes. IRA LEVIN = EVIL RAIN!

And Paul McCartney is really Billy Shears...helter skelter! 😉

Why Lennon ?

Why not Jimmy Page? At least he was (is) a Thelemite, bought Boleskine, promoted thelema, started a bookshop for Crowley's books at a time when these were out of print and made great music!


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einDoppelganger
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"FraDiavolo" wrote:
"VRST" wrote:
Andrew Woodhouse (the baby of RB) was born 25 June 1966. On that day the Beatles had a number one hit with Paperback Writer. The flipside was Rain, the first use of "evil" backwards tapes. IRA LEVIN = EVIL RAIN!

And Paul McCartney is really Billy Shears...helter skelter! 😉

Why Lennon ?

Why not Jimmy Page? At least he was (is) a Thelemite, bought Boleskine, promoted thelema, started a bookshop for Crowley's books at a time when these were out of print and made great music!

hmm... I don't believe that Page is all that impressed with the American reconstructed OTO. I have heard tell that Grady and him didn't hit it off.


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Walterfive
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"einDoppelganger" wrote:
hmm... I don't believe that Page is all that impressed with the American reconstructed OTO. I have heard tell that Grady and him didn't hit it off.

Perhaps not, but he and the current Caliph are friends, and have friends in common. I have that on the authority of an old friend of both of them who had lunch with them a few years ago.


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einDoppelganger
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"Walterfive" wrote:
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
hmm... I don't believe that Page is all that impressed with the American reconstructed OTO. I have heard tell that Grady and him didn't hit it off.

Perhaps not, but he and the current Caliph are friends, and have friends in common. I have that on the authority of an old friend of both of them who had lunch with them a few years ago.

I'd imagine they are since both are avid Crowley collectors/readers as well as prominent Thelemites. Just like Anger and Bill are "friends." I dont think Kenneth A is outbidding Bill on Crowley materials, though...

Anyway, the point I make is I just don't think the folks who have been around before Grady resurfaced and saw the reconstruction take place see the Caliphate in the same light. With the obvious exception of those taking part, and those with something to gain by circumventing Motta.

I do understand that Anger got a IX* (and cash) out of his substantial concession to the cOTO archives...


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 Anonymous
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"einDoppelganger" wrote:
hmm... I don't believe that Page is all that impressed with the American reconstructed OTO. I have heard tell that Grady and him didn't hit it off.

I was suggesting ZOSA as a Thelemic saint not an OTO one 😉

Read here shiocking facts http://insiderockmusic.com/satanic.html after which you will know why Lennon is no Saint 😆


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einDoppelganger
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But the EGC is the new Vatican - dontcha' know 🙂


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