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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/01/2010 6:45 pm  

Two new books of Peter-R. König in German Language (!) will be published soon.

In Nomine Demiurgi Homunculi (about the late post 1970s Fraternitas Saturni)

OTO Phänomen Reload - 100 Jahre Magische Geheimbünde und ihre Protagonisten (new expanded edition of OTO Phänomen).

Info at:

ARW, Postfach 500107, 80971 München
ARW.Manfred_Ach@gmx.de


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alysa
(@alysa)
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06/01/2010 6:48 pm  

Seems I realy needs to learn German.


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
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06/01/2010 9:35 pm  

I wonder if more copies would be sold if they were written in English?


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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06/01/2010 10:01 pm  

And I trust these will be as fair, even-handed, and unbiased as his previous works?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/01/2010 10:45 pm  

Thanx for info moyal. If someone pay the books me, I will review them in return. Anyone up for the deal? 😉

Obs! I do know the German language.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/01/2010 6:12 am  
"Walterfive" wrote:
And I trust these will be as fair, even-handed, and unbiased as his previous works?

We will see. The good thing about the König-books is the quantity of rare material they contain, which would be hard to get from somewhere else. Best three books I have read where the one about Tränker, Levke and the OTOA-Reader (Bertiaux). Less 'lodge-gossip' and comments by König , more facsimile of the actual material the discussed protagonist produced by their own.


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
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07/01/2010 4:19 pm  
"moyal" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
And I trust these will be as fair, even-handed, and unbiased as his previous works?

We will see. The good thing about the König-books is the quantity of rare material they contain, which would be hard to get from somewhere else.

Some would say 'the only good thing about the König books' but I'll concede your point. 😉


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
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07/01/2010 8:16 pm  

Some would say 'the only good thing about the König books'

He doesn't seem to like the COTO?


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gurugeorge
(@gurugeorge)
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Posts: 456
07/01/2010 10:02 pm  

You've got to give Koenig marks for detective work and for being able to wheedle tidbits of this and that out of various people. It's always interesting to read his stuff for the facts (presuming they are such). It's really a bit of a treasure, what he's done, in terms of historical digging.

But his own analyses of the facts are curiously inept and scatterbrained.

That may be a deliberate blind of course. 😀

Or maybe not 😆


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/01/2010 9:17 pm  

I too wish all of his writings were published in English. I could always have my Grandmother read the German editions to me while I write them in Engish, but I'm not to sure she would enjoy reading that type of material!:lol: (She is actually an Athiest, so maybe it wouldn't bother her too much)


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stevensteven
(@stevensteven)
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08/01/2010 9:30 pm  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:

He doesn't seem to like the COTO?

By COTO do you mean OTO?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 2:10 pm  
"stevensteven" wrote:
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
He doesn't seem to like the COTO?

By COTO do you mean OTO?

I think he really meant COTO ...


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 2:44 pm  
"Alistair" wrote:
I think he really meant COTO ...

What is COTO then? I am not aware of any organization that goes by that name.


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alysa
(@alysa)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 655
09/01/2010 2:52 pm  

Caliphate O.T.O.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 8:14 pm  
"alysa" wrote:
Caliphate O.T.O.

Oh, you mean O.T.O?


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
09/01/2010 8:31 pm  
"sryan" wrote:
Oh, you mean O.T.O?

🙄

Welcome to LAShTAL, sryan.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Posts: 165
09/01/2010 8:33 pm  

Isn't using the acronym "C.O.T.O." rather prejudicial and hostile for an "unbiased" site?


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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09/01/2010 8:44 pm  

Isn't using the acronym "C.O.T.O." rather prejudicial and hostile for an "unbiased" site?

Hardly. We all know the O.T.O. has been referred to many times as "The Caliphate" or C.O.T.O. as a way of distinguishing it from the Typhonian Order and other groups, which themselves have been referred with names and acroymns such a TOTO etc. Although not the formal names of the organizations in question, we knew who was being alluded to in an environment where there were various groups associating with the simple acronym O.T.O. It was quite helpful as a descriptive term and not necessarily implying disdain or "prejudice."

Does the C.O.T.O. feel otherwise? 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 8:46 pm  

Does the C.O.T.O. feel otherwise

Wait for it......


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 501
09/01/2010 8:50 pm  

"Isn't using the acronym "C.O.T.O." rather prejudicial and hostile for an "unbiased" site?"

Not necessarily. This term used to be widely used and is now falling into abeyance. Perhaps it will disappear. But if some people still use it, or even if its use becomes entirely historic, future folk may care to know what was meant.

The only reason I have any interest at all in this is because I was minor tweaking in the Encyclopedia Thelemica just now and noticed its absence in places where it might have earned a useful footnote.

Possibly someone qualified to do so might supply one.

If terms like this are eradicated or expunged hypothetical future folk might mistake it for a secret society.

OK


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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09/01/2010 9:06 pm  
"thiebes" wrote:
Isn't using the acronym "C.O.T.O." rather prejudicial and hostile for an "unbiased" site?

No, it isn't.

"COTO" is an abbreviation that all here will recognise. It may not be the legally registered label but, given that the McMurtry-Grant-Motta issues of the past have been resolved and given that we all know what it means, I don't see how it can be considered pejorative within a Forum post. And just how its use in the context above can be considered to reflect on the site is entirely beyond me.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 9:20 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
"thiebes" wrote:
Isn't using the acronym "C.O.T.O." rather prejudicial and hostile for an "unbiased" site?

No, it isn't.

"COTO" is an abbreviation that all here will recognise. It may not be the legally registered label but, given that the McMurtry-Grant-Motta issues of the past have been resolved and given that we all know what it means, I don't see how it can be considered pejorative within a Forum post. And just how its use in the context above can be considered to reflect on the site is entirely beyond me.

Why not just refer to the order as their name only which is O.T.O.? Especially since there are no other organizations that use that name alone.


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 9:20 pm  

Interesting. Since there is no ambiguity in using the actual names of the organizations in question, I thought it was plain that the only reason someone would use "C.O.T.O." would be to question its legitimacy in using the legal name of the organization.

Certainly many members of O.T.O. would find it offensive and inherently pejorative. If that is how you want to run your site, so be it.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Joined: 17 years ago
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09/01/2010 9:28 pm  
"thiebes" wrote:
If that is how you want to run your site, so be it.

Charming…

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Posts: 165
09/01/2010 10:10 pm  

I don't understand. You have today supported the use of an insulting and incorrect name for O.T.O., publicly insinuated that I am doing something sinister in promoting my own work and the work of my colleagues, publicly chastised me for defending myself against the harassing and off-topic comments of Erwin Hessle, and now you make this sarcastic comment about *my* level of charm?


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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09/01/2010 10:21 pm  

Given that you're simply repeating here the same things you're also complaining about in our Private Message exchange, there's little point in me responding, other than to say that I have not "supported the use of an insulting and incorrect name for O.T.O." My feelings about the OTO are apparent on this site and have been consistent over the course of the eleven years I've been running LAShTAL.COM.

It's time for this thread to return to its topic.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/01/2010 8:12 am  
"michaelclarke18" wrote:
He doesn't seem to like the COTO?

After having a look over the relevant chapters in Der O.T.O. Phänomen REMIX, I would say he 'likes' them very much.
But I also understand, why 'they' don't like König very much.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
10/01/2010 10:59 am  

I think there is a wealth of useful historical information in Peter's books, and I have found them very interesting over the years. I agree with Michael Clarke and others that publishing in English translations would be useful. I also think that the material could be better marshalled perhaps. But I'm grateful that he has published them over the years. I also met him once, a few years ago, and liked him very much.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/01/2010 11:33 am  

93!
I have contacted Koenig by email and he allowed me to quote him:

"Dear cybercitizens,
those interested in my third book on the Fraternitas Saturni might get a glimpse at In Nomine Demiurgi Homunculi. You see some of the pictures that are included in said book."

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/01/2010 12:57 pm  

The publisher of König's books also has a lot of Fraternitas Saturni material on offer (mostly photo-copies of issues of the lodge journals). It will taken soon out of the catalog. He also has copies of some rare Peryt Shou works.
All this stuff is in German language of course.

Info:
ARW.Manfred_Ach@gmx.de


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alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 655
10/01/2010 5:35 pm  

Took a look at the website and it realy is intriguing what he has published in the past, it's worth the effort to learn German!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/01/2010 1:08 pm  

93. I doubt very much that Peryt Shou would have enjoyed such a publisher 🙁 But that's what happen when your stuff goes in the wrong hands after your death. Yet it is SO ironic that fame (at least in the "thelemic" world) and sometimes money come from what one criticizes.

Besides the biased yellow journalism and ripp-off activity of Mr Koenig itself, I don't see why scholars should refer to a group with a name disputed by the group itself - it goes against any basic sociological criterion. 93, 93/93


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
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Posts: 155
11/01/2010 2:16 pm  
"teth" wrote:
Besides the biased yellow journalism and ripp-off activity of Mr Koenig itself, I don't see why scholars should refer to a group with a name disputed by the group itself - it goes against any basic sociological criterion. 93, 93/93

93 teth,

I completely agree with the spirit of your post. The term "C.O.T.O." is a derrogatory term to me, which invokes and perpetuates the divisive current that has been apparent to me for quite some time. In my experience it is pretty much only ever used by old-school thelemites who have an axe to grind and therefore like to project an anti-OTO centiment, and newer Thelemites, who, having been exposed to all the negativity on the web today, have in many cases adopted the views of this minority, without having even taken the time to find out about the Order for themselves.

"The great bond of all bonds is ignorance. How shall a man be free to act if he know not his own purpose? You must therefore first of all discover which star of all the stars you are, your relation to the other stars about you, and your relation to, and identity with, the Whole.

In our Holy Books are given sundry means of making this discovery, and each must make it for himself, attaining absolute conviction by direct experience, not merely reasoning and calculating what is probable."-Liber 150

...wise advice that is often times not followed.

I'd also like to say that I realize that many on this site fall into the first category, being more informed and seasoned thelemites, who might possibly have real reasons for the way they feel... But this still doesn't change the fact that experiences vary widely, and using such derrogatory terms only perpetuates our problems further, because of the way they tend to influence NEW Thelemites to feel it is necessary to "Pick a side". I really think that people overlook the impact these types of things have on newbies. Either that, or perhaps it is intentional on their part. Either way, it is unfortunate IMO.

93 93/93,
Oz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/01/2010 3:53 pm  

ARW exists for many years and publishes many different studies about / rare original text of - very different religious/occult currents, including medieval texts. As far as I know, they don't have published anything of Peryt Shou. They sell, as I wrote photo copies of works hard to get.
About the letterrei: - Nicht mein Brei.
I've already done my comment and nothing to add. But its interesting to see how this thread develops. 🙂


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
11/01/2010 9:18 pm  
"sryan" wrote:
Why not just refer to the order as their name only which is O.T.O.? Especially since there are no other organizations that use that name alone.

What name does the "Swiss O.T.O." use? SOTO is already occupied. Maybe SWOTO?

🙄

I am waiting for the undisputable evidence that the OHO of Crowley's O.T.O., Karl Germer legitimated the Swiss O.T.O. group under Herman J. Metzger as 'authorized successors to the Master Therion' on Koenig's site. Which btw and relating to this thread is an invaluably interesting and important site for anyone who - well, anyone who actually can read Koenig's numerous disclaimers. And I am glad that there are enough COTO members who think so too and continue to feed him. And cheers to ARW too - I hope they will survive as long as possible.

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/01/2010 7:31 pm  

First .... sorry, i had another account but i lost the password and do not own the
E mail anymore. So i created a new account.

Lutz, It seems like you only know about the O.T.O. Schweiz through Koenig.
If you visited "them" you surely realised that there is not much beside Mr. Eschbach.
Gasthaus Rose is sold, in fact it is not even sure Mrs. Eschbach still living....her condtion was already about 3/4 years ago very bad.

With her dead the "Schweizer O.T.O." will be/is History....but don t worry the O.T.O. got a couple of Members in Switzerland.......

Back to Topic.

Forgeries do not remain undetected.

For everybody who is impressed by Peters collection of Documents,
this should be a very interesting Documentary how he faked at least one Document
and how his way of commentatorship is composed.

Sadly this is also in german, but the even only the pictures are telling a tale which should be
understandable. (just as i hope that my english is understandable)

http://www.mentopia.net/esoterik_philosophie_politik/esoterik_okkultismus_weltanschauungsbeauftragte_sektenjaeger/peter_robert_koenig.pdf

Alles Liebe
Dan


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
12/01/2010 8:56 pm  

93, Dan.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
Lutz, It seems like you only know about the O.T.O. Schweiz through Koenig.

Although I do not know very much about the Swiss O.T.O., most of what I know I have from other sources. My point was that it still exists (doesn't it?) and calls itself O.T.O. (doesn't it?). From what I hear things might be refreshed in the future, at the moment it is probably not more than a museum - which is good as well, because there is so much that should be preserved. People should never forgot where they come from and I see nothing condescending to use the word Caliphate in conversation.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
For everybody who is impressed by Peters collection of Documents, this should be a very interesting Documentary how he faked at least one Document and how his way of commentatorship is composed.

Thanks for the PDF. I haven't read it by now in its entirety but for anyone looking for a proof of forgery (in the meaning of legal proof): you won't find it. There is no forgery. Maybe intentional mis- and over-interpretation (especially by inserting knowledge of future evolvements), but not forgery. Anyway, Mr. Koenig's own interpretations are what I am usually not interested in, nor would I ever give them any factual weight, they are interpretations. In the same light I am reading this PDF, whose author gets carried away every now and again also by his preconceptions. So what? I agree with him that Marco Pasi is the "better" historian.

I guess the best (and most significant) passage in the PDF is that there are members of the "occult culture" that are actually worrying (fantasizing?) about seeing their correspondence in a Koenig book. I guess that says it all.

Mr. Koenig is actually living the Woody Allen (Groucho Marx) joke: I could never be a member of a club that allows people like me as a member. Yet he joined a lot of those clubs and now writes about it. Just as funny and as sad as real life.

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/01/2010 10:59 pm  

Lutz, the Schweizer O.T.O. from the Metzger lineage does not exist as an Organisation anymore.

---

Yes it is condescending and wrong.

If you know about the german language you also know which
wordplay is in C.O.T.O. hidden and thats why Peter love to use it constantly
and thats why i am not surely not affended by that acronym but ask people please not to use it.

Excrement is in german "Kot" and thats what this wordplay is evolved from.
This is in my book condescending.

It is just as condescending as the "Mc O.T.O." wordplay.

So maybe now you can see what is condescending for me as a member of the O.T.O. in the use of both.

---

it is forgery to fake a Gradus Solis Patent of Fraternitas Saturni.
On the Pages 7 and 8 you can find a *in my opinion* legal proof.
The author of that paper trys to write in the same sarcastic
way Peter does. It is obvious that this paper is a Fake.

Alles Liebe
Dan


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5323
12/01/2010 11:10 pm  

Hmmm… Your posts, "Daniel.M" appear to have been deleted in the last few minutes from the Facebook page of … one JT.

LAShTAL.COM is an impartial website - it's not the place to play "my OTO is bigger than your OTO" games.

And, as a matter of interest, just what is so "condescending" about: "the Mc.O.T.O. wordplay"?

As a matter of interest, which username did you use for your previous account?

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 12:43 am  

really?.. i think my last post there was about that sexy picture and it is still there!
If you didn t login you can t see them, i am guessing you are LAShTAL Members,
so you are in my friendlist and surely be able to see them.

I really wonder what kind of conspiracy you assumed to be going on 🙂


i didn t picked up the O.T.O. and that other acronym topic,
i just answered.

My intention was to talk about Peter and his stuff.
Thats why i also started my answer to Lutz with the words "i am GUESSING your informations about
Swiss O.T.O. is from Peter"

C´mon..... i am much to old for size games 😉

Mc O.T.O. was explained in one of Peters writings and i don t think that the quality
of the organsiation he is talking about is comparable with the quality of the food of a
well known fastfood restaurant. In my opinion this is very dismissive.

My intention was to explain to everybody who maybe uses this acronym with complete different intention that it is nothing but a bad joke of Peter.

I never used any wordplay against any organisation which shares the 3 letters,
so i really just don t understand why anyone else does it in a dissmissive way about the
Order i am a member off. (maybe even without knowing it is dissmissive)

(oh i made once a picture of a big blue Trashcan full off garbage with the name Motta on it ...a german icecream brand...and uploaded it to my FB page. Does this count?)

If people would start to take more objective view on his writings they would maybe
see that he is not only giving wrong informations between historical facts but also uses
partly faked papers.....and that his jokes are not funny at all.

----

To be honest this is my third account

My first one is years ago and i really don t remember which funky Name
it was, i am guessing anything with a 44, 93 or 718 or something like beasttherionthelema777
surely a common combination otherwise i would remember the name

My second account was because i didn t even remembered the Nickname of the first.
That was Adul Arslan and i had not much posts, but surely i never wrote something
dismissive. That account was created with a GMX E mail and i am not very good
in keeping passwords. I didn t want to have a very expensive call with gmx to get
the password yesterday back. But a Brother told me about the Germer letters (thank you)
and i really want to read them ... so i created a account with my real name.
is this ok for you, or is there any probleme with that?

Alles Liebe
Dan


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
13/01/2010 1:10 am  

Why is the prefix "Caliphate" to the initials O.T.O. deemed by some here to be pejorative, insulting, offensive and now dismissive?

I was under the impression that in the late 1960s McMurtry assumed the office of Caliph, on the basis of the Caliphate letters. I don't suppose he regarded the term as offensive, and I think he'd be somewhat surprised to see it so regarded today.

Now if you wanted to see something that was genuinely offensive, then you should have seen some of the effluent posted by some detractors to the Starfire catalogue news item yesterday evening . . .

Best wishes,

Michael.

Best wishes


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 1:57 am  

Hi Micheal,

you can see my explanation why it is dissmisive three posts above.
the akronym was made common thru Peter and his intention seems to me
was to mock the O.T.O. and thank you very much but you don t have to explain to me the history of
O.T.O.

Maybe you realized that i constantly talking about the acronym.
If that gone lost between my bad english, i am pointing it out now.

---

Sorry, i don t know what you talking about, i am still trying to get all the books from the
plenty of reading lists and courses together and i am not interested in new published books these days.

Maybe i have seen something like that, but i am not interested in opinions about stuff i am in general not interested in. I am much more interested in opinions about mythomaniacs like Peter.
(this name is so adequate... )

----

i feel a little bit pigeaonholed but ... however ... i like that pigeonhole.

Alles Liebe
Dan


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 526
13/01/2010 2:45 am  

. . It is amusing to me how you think that you are so clever. Perhaps you need a playpen all to yourself, to just practise. . . . .


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1847
13/01/2010 4:55 am  

i am not interested in opinions about stuff i am in general not interested in. I am much more interested in opinions about mythomaniacs like Peter

So, instead of being open to new perspectives from unfamiliar quarters, you are more interested in opinions about people you dislike? 🙄

The term "Caliphate" is no more a "put down" than "Those Typhonians." It's all a matter of context and how the terms are being used. These (and others) have been used in the past to designate which group or collective is being referred to. For example, there are many references in Kenneth Grant's books to the "OTO." It would be important to members of the (ahem) "Caliphate" to point out to any confused individuals that KG's allusion was to what they considered to be the "TOTO" and not their own group.

We are into a different atmosphere at present, post Trademark Case in the UK. Both groups have a history (including use of "OTO") and both groups have a differing perspective as to how Crowley's OTO moved along the flowchart. COTO and TOTO will persist in historic allusions and need to be understood in such a context. Evoking the allusion is emphatically NOT indicative of any lack of respect for either group. However, as Michael noted above, lack of respect (and outright immaturity and rudeness) can be noted by the nature of the comment.

Peter Koenig's site is absolutely one of interest. With some knowledge and wisdom, one can glean from its documentary content some very valuable information. Having assembled such a "cyber compendium," he is, of course, not above question. Hopefully, the "questioning" will lead to answers which are of help and benefit to our own Paths, be it a "yea" or "nay."

Aside from nitpicking over terminological details, it seems to me that an old battle has been put to rest. The Law of Thelema is finding expression in many venues, bursting "old wineskins" and flooding into the "new." I think it would be a mark of progress were self-understood "Thelemites" to acknowledge diversity of expression through diversity of means.

Sectarianism is so ..."Old Aeon." 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 8:15 am  

93!
I asked Mr Koenig and quote him with permission:

"The people behind said pdf are angry about me because I previously refused to mention them in my book SATAN - Jünger, Jäger und Justiz. True is that I clearly stated the facts about said Saturnian charter which is historically seen not a fake: it is issued by a Saturnian high degree member with a true succession in the lodge.
All the pertinent details in my third book on the Fraternitas Saturni: In Nomine Demiurgi Homunculi.

Regarding the Swiss O.T.O.:
Annemarie Aeschbach died in April 2008. In Switzerland, the Gnostic Catholic Church’s Crowleyan Masses are performed, without a break, as usual, on alternate Sundays. The museum and library remain active, as do Order operations. The finances have been merged with those of the Aeschbach-Stiftung, which is overseen by the cantonal authorities and run by a Foundation Committee, headed by Ernst Graf and Adalbert Schmid: The latter looks after the library and the estate business. Besides being the new president of the Psychosophische Gesellschaft, Graf is also its vice-president. A financial cushion results from the sale of the Haus Schedlern, where Fraeulein Aeschbach used to live; this also overcame any financial hurdles that might have thwarted the Society’s successful continuation. New members were also taken on.

Taken from the updated and enlarged History of the 'Caliphate'.

The huge library of the Swiss O.T.O. is currently being catalogued by the library service of Appenzell Canton, and will eventually be opened to the public.

Regarding the term 'Caliphate': It's something that used the group in question to describe itself - up to 1985. Not my invention."

93 93/93


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1836
13/01/2010 8:17 am  

93!

"Daniel.M" wrote:
Lutz, the Schweizer O.T.O. from the Metzger lineage does not exist as an Organisation anymore.

But as what then? Are there any official statements about this? I am genuinely interested.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
If you know about the german language you also know which wordplay is in C.O.T.O. hidden and thats why Peter love to use it constantly and thats why i am not surely not affended by that acronym but ask people please not to use it.

Okay, so I won't use it in conversation with you. By the way, I never thought of that silly wordplay and want to point out, that if you browse through the pages of Koenig's site, he mostly uses 'Caliphate O.T.O.', cOTO or COTO is mostly used in the sources he quotes. But I have no interest in defending Koenig.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
Excrement is in german "Kot" and thats what this wordplay is evolved from. This is in my book condescending.

I think it evolved from Caliphate. TOTO evolved from Typhonian and not from the German wordplay that it might be a dead lineage, "dead" is "tot" in German.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
It is just as condescending as the "Mc O.T.O." wordplay.

That's what you think. But as a matter of fact OTO-ish orders were founded without any "real" lineage just when Francis King's "Secret Rituals" were published. I think of that when reading McOTO. Times have changed and things get clearer but those "lineage quarrels" will probably survive, and that's what I think of when I hear McOTO, and no legal decisions will change that - unfortunately but understandably.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
So maybe now you can see what is condescending for me as a member of the O.T.O. in the use of both.

I can, but I think it is a superficial view you have.

"Daniel.M" wrote:
it is forgery to fake a Gradus Solis Patent of Fraternitas Saturni. On the Pages 7 and 8 you can find a *in my opinion* legal proof.

Maybe I must study it deeper but where is the forgery? He seems to have received a charter. He did not photoshop it, he did not fake it. What the charter is for and by which authority it was issued is probably a matter of discussion amongst "professionals" without any real legal basis - the same is true for nearly every charter Reuss once issued by the way. The significant thing is that people believe in charters and lineages and what else and this can be very deceiving. That's what I believe is what Koenig is saying (maybe he has other motives too).

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 9:19 am  

doppeltgemoppelt


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 9:30 am  
"Daniel.M" wrote:
Excrement is in german "Kot" and thats what this wordplay is evolved from.
This is in my book condescending.

'Condescending' in the meaning of "geruhend' or 'herablassend'?

TOTO, I have the feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.
Makes that Grant to a dog or reverse? How fits a fairy-tale ass in this?

König writes, that's its not really clear for what the 'C' stands. He also quotes the possibility that it could just stand for Calif = California.
I have the feeling, König acts like a little boy who likes to affright little girls with spiders.

You should stand above the childish play with 'secrets'. It's the crying what makes you 'suspicious', not the matter itself.

AL I, 22. Last sentence.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 5:11 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:

i am not interested in opinions about stuff i am in general not interested in. I am much more interested in opinions about mythomaniacs like Peter

So, instead of being open to new perspectives from unfamiliar quarters, you are more interested in opinions about people you dislike? 🙄

I dislike him for a constantly try to crash the self chossen mystical surrounding of a lot of people. Also for transporting his opinions thru to hidding them behind historical facts

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
The term "Caliphate" is no more a "put down" than "Those Typhonians." It's all a matter of context and how the terms are being used. These (and others) have been used in the past to designate which group or collective is being referred to. For example, there are many references in Kenneth Grant's books to the "OTO." It would be important to members of the (ahem) "Caliphate" to point out to any confused individuals that KG's allusion was to what they considered to be the "TOTO" and not their own group.

We are into a different atmosphere at present, post Trademark Case in the UK. Both groups have a history (including use of "OTO") and both groups have a differing perspective as to how Crowley's OTO moved along the flowchart. COTO and TOTO will persist in historic allusions and need to be understood in such a context. Evoking the allusion is emphaticallive of any lack of respect for either group. However, as Michael noted above, lack of respect (and outright immaturity and rudeness) can be noted by the nature of the comment.

It is not my idea that the acronym wordplay is a "put down" it is more that a fourth way "disciple" of P.R. Koenigs crony Mr. F.W. Haack pointed this out, when i meet him accidentaly.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Peter Koenig's site is absolutely one of interest. With some knowledge and wisdom, one can glean from its documentary content some very valuable information. Having assembled such a "cyber compendium," he is, of course, not above question. Hopefully, the "questioning" will lead to answers which are of help and benefit to our own Paths, be it a "yea" or "nay."

If the site would be that what it pretendf to be thiss would be true.
But sadly he uses to paint a picture which is adopted by a lot of persons in germany and i am now for many years confronted by his lies about the O.T.O. and the E.G.C.. On a nearly weekly base persons tell me my way
is false because of his Propaganda. Try to see it thru my Eyes, maybe you understand that i don t want to see his inflammatory pamphlet promotet and beeing very tired of narrow-gauge thelemics which use his silly arguments.

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Aside from nitpicking over terminological details, it seems to me that an old battle has been put to rest. The Law of Thelema is finding expression in many venues, bursting "old wineskins" and flooding into the "new." I think it would be a mark of progress were self-understood "Thelemites" to acknowledge diversity of expression through diversity of means.

Sectarianism is so ..."Old Aeon." 😉

True!

"Tenri-Kyo" wrote:
93!
I asked Mr Koenig and quote him with permission:

"The people behind said pdf are angry about me because I previously refused to mention them in my book SATAN - Jünger, Jäger und Justiz. True is that I clearly stated the facts about said Saturnian charter which is historically seen not a fake: it is issued by a Saturnian high degree member with a true succession in the lodge.
All the pertinent details in my third book on the Fraternitas Saturni: In Nomine Demiurgi Homunculi.

Regarding the Swiss O.T.O.:
Annemarie Aeschbach died in April 2008. In Switzerland, the Gnostic Catholic Church’s Crowleyan Masses are performed, without a break, as usual, on alternate Sundays. The museum and library remain active, as do Order operations. The finances have been merged with those of the Aeschbach-Stiftung, which is overseen by the cantonal authorities and run by a Foundation Committee, headed by Ernst Graf and Adalbert Schmid: The latter looks after the library and the estate business. Besides being the new president of the Psychosophische Gesellschaft, Graf is also its vice-president. A financial cushion results from the sale of the Haus Schedlern, where Fraeulein Aeschbach used to live; this also overcame any financial hurdles that might have thwarted the Society’s successful continuation. New members were also taken on.

Taken from the updated and enlarged History of the 'Caliphate'.

The huge library of the Swiss O.T.O. is currently being catalogued by the library service of Appenzell Canton, and will eventually be opened to the public.

Regarding the term 'Caliphate': It's something that used the group in question to describe itself - up to 1985. Not my invention."

93 93/93

Maybe you missed the point where i said he is a Mythomaniac and again in this quote is about 70% wrong information.

Alles Liebe
Dan


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stevensteven
(@stevensteven)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 9
13/01/2010 5:52 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
LAShTAL.COM is an impartial website

It would appear more so if organizations were referred to by their preferred and legal name. Allowing people to use terms that are both confusing and considered by some as pejorative, works against the appearance of that impartiality.


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