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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/08/2011 8:49 pm  

"Ma'at can wait".


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4100
14/08/2011 9:19 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
"Ma'at can wait".

I'd forgotten about that; thanks for the nudge. It's pretty clear, then, that in Crowley's understanding the subsequent Equinox of the Gods to follow the Aeon of Horus was that of Maat.

Best,

MS.


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Keith418
(@keith418)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 127
14/08/2011 11:18 pm  

If it's okay to criticize Crowley and his work, it should be perfectly okay to criticize the Maatians and their work. To attack and criticize him, and to insist that there be no criticism of them, seems like granting the Maatians a rather unearned kind of special privilege.

What would inspire anyone to insist on that kind of double standard? Is it because the Maatians are seen as compassionate and "good" while Crowley is viewed as being, elitist, bigoted, and "bad"? Perhaps someone could create something challenging and important with the Maatian material, but the Maatians themselves can't manage to produce one single good, or consistent, blog. Do they have a magazine? Their own bulletin board? I kind of doubt that they are really all that invested in what they claim is so important to them. if they were as into it as they claim, wouldn't they be showing us a lot more?


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5384
14/08/2011 11:24 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
So, just how does Hrumachis, the "double-wanded one" who is to assume the throne of the hawk-headed mystical lord, translate into Maat? Hrumachis appears to be a variant of Harmachis, which is the Hellenized form of Hor-em-akhet, which translates into "Horus in the horizon" in Egyptian language. I also note that Harmachis is considered to be the god of the double-equinox, the god of the double-axe, and so on, an indication the double-wand is appropriate to him based on Egyptian myth.

It's all that "double" stuff, i.e., "Lord of the Two Horizons" that implies a "balance" thus invoking Themis and Ma'at and the Scales and the Balance. Crowley's the one who pointed these terms out, so you'll have to ask him.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
14/08/2011 11:30 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
If it's okay to criticize Crowley and his work, it should be perfectly okay to criticize the Maatians and their work. To attack and criticize him, and to insist that there be no criticism of them, seems like granting the Maatians a rather unearned kind of special privilege.

What would inspire anyone to insist on that kind of double standard? Is it because the Maatians are seen as compassionate and "good" while Crowley is viewed as being, elitist, bigoted, and "bad"? Perhaps someone could create something challenging and important with the Maatian material, but the Maatians themselves can't manage to produce one single good, or consistent, blog. Do they have a magazine? Their own bulletin board? I kind of doubt that they are really all that invested in what they claim is so important to them. if they were as into it as they claim, wouldn't they be showing us a lot more?

key Keith

stay coherent baby - stay on target


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5384
15/08/2011 12:05 am  

Who says Maatians (a newly-invented word) are compassionate and good? One or two authors? I always heard that "Justice was Blind," or "Justice was Swift."

Over and over and over again, it has been pointed out (in this very thread) that the Ma'at stuff (concepts and truisms) pertains to BALANCE and is the realm of THE FOOL. That is, he (she) is directed by Tao. This is beyond goodness and compassion. This is beyond Crowley. This is Zero. If you think I'm making this up, you've never been there.

The Double Standard is seen most clearly in the endless left-right, conservative versus liberal, within the "Thelemic Community" against the "enlightened One." As the doctor said, "It's all in your mind."

Wait for Ma'at? OK, if you wish. But she's a level of consciousness that can be visited sometimes (for an interlude if you're able). As a permanent state of being? Well, maybe that will have to Waite. If you think I'm making this up, you've never been there. If you've been there, PM me. I always enjoy recognizing an Apostle of the Ashram of the Absolute Zero (even if only temporarily - even if induced by some legal poison).


My first line [above] about "Justice is Swift" brings up a key. As we proceed on the Path of Initiation, each level brings about a faster response from the Law of Cause and Effect (It's called a faster or a higher vibration - "vibe" in the slang. If you think I'm making this up, you haven't seen it, be patient and Waite.

Higher and higher (no flights of fantasy here), until Cause-and-Effect become instantaneous (no time-lag). In that moment, you have attained Justice. You are not standing before Ma'at, you silly fellow. You ARE She. "The Brothers of A.'.A.'. are Women: the Aspirants to A.'.A.'. are Men." [ - Liber 333]

It's very simple. You're not going to be admitted to Binah unless you're balanced. Those old papyri of the Judgement Hall of Ma'at are not only the basis of the "Passing through the Tuat" degree - they also apply to the Abyss - and to every other test and veil along the merry way.

Do you have an opinion? Sad! Come back another day.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 12:18 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
but the Maatians themselves can't manage to produce one single good, or consistent, blog. Do they have a magazine? Their own bulletin board? I kind of doubt that they are really all that invested in what they claim is so important to them. if they were as into it as they claim, wouldn't they be showing us a lot more?

Yes, you can always tell a magick current by how well they're blogging. ๐Ÿ˜€

The best part of Keith's posts are Shiva's responses. Nice balancing, you guys, very Maatian.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 1:04 am  

On a practical level, the Aeon of Maat is about as useful to the regular practitioner in this time and place as the teachings about the coming of Maitreya would have been to the Buddhists or the End-times of the Book of Revelation would have been to the Christians. That is to say, useful only inasmuch as it puts our current existence here in the Aeon of Horus into a particular perspective, but otherwise a fertile hunting ground for misunderstanding and a breeding ground for loonies and hucksters. I may as well use my own Sovereign Authority to declare the Aeon of Maat pre-emptively abrogated as well, and that now we have entered into the Aeon of Bob. Too bad for all the maatians out there, but I guess Aeons come along more cheaply than they used to these days.

93!
(or should I say 74! which is the Number of Bob)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 1:10 am  
"Swamiji" wrote:
On a practical level, the Aeon of Maat is about as useful to the regular practitioner in this time and place as the teachings about the coming of Maitreya would have been to the Buddhists or the End-times of the Book of Revelation would have been to the Christians. That is to say, useful only inasmuch as it puts our current existence here in the Aeon of Horus into a particular perspective, but otherwise a fertile hunting ground for misunderstanding and a breeding ground for loonies and hucksters. I may as well use my own Sovereign Authority to declare the Aeon of Maat pre-emptively abrogated as well, and that now we have entered into the Aeon of Bob. Too bad for all the maatians out there, but I guess Aeons come along more cheaply than they used to these days.

93!
(or should I say 74! which is the Number of Bob)

Bob was the name of the fellow who turned me onto Crowley, "Bob" Wilson and a number of other delights, so I think you may be onto something. He used to remind me that Bob spelled backwards is still Bob. ๐Ÿ˜€


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 2:11 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
If it's okay to criticize Crowley and his work, it should be perfectly okay to criticize the Maatians and their work. To attack and criticize him, and to insist that there be no criticism of them, seems like granting the Maatians a rather unearned kind of special privilege.

The problem, Keith, is that your "criticism" is just ignorant. You seem to be wanting to equate Ma'at with some 'fluffy bunny' cartoon that it simply does not fit. I don't know why you feel the need to do this. If it doesn't interest you, why not simply give your attention to some things which do? Like Crowley? Perhaps once you finally come to grips with him, you'll be in a position to approach Ma'at constructively.

Clearly it does interest you, because you're obsessing about it here. So perhaps you should begin by studying the subject in depth, which you show time and again you haven't done.

Added to that is your ad-feminam (!) assertions that Nema somehow shies away from awkward or unpleasant issues. But have you ever bothered reading her work?

Mrs Ingalls, from the few details of her life that I know, as well as the correspondence I've been fortunate enough to have had with her over the years, strikes me as one of the frankest, most spiritually robust individuals I've read.

What still strikes me is that you still haven't twigged to the fact you're behaving like an automaton built to defend a small part of Aleister Crowley's internal dialogue.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5384
15/08/2011 2:34 am  
"Swamiji" wrote:
On a practical level, the Aeon of Maat is about as useful to the regular practitioner in this time and place as the teachings ...

I am not addressing the "regular practitioner" in my postings on this thread. Have I not made that clear? Over and over and over again? I am pinning this topic on the Master of the Temple, or the Fool as he might be. I am saying even the "regular practitioner" can attain here with some LSD.

Well, not LSD because that's illegal everywhere except in Hong Kong (can you believe it?); only legal libations in your own district can be considered if you're going to be free.

Bob is fine with me. I hold that lineage and besides, the new godform is ready to go. He is the Dog from Outer Space, and his name (really) is Bob:

...............

So anyway, let's weigh the balance, let's tip the scale:

Keith418 is demeaning Maatia because it's so bland, while introducing right-left brain hemisphere mis-synchronizations, so the scales bounce around and don't settle 'cause everything is wrong.

SwamiJi is poking fun at Ma'at, saying there's no practical application, dismissing it in a light-hearted way. I wonder. There are two Solar Lodge members, from the old days, now attornies-at-law. I am currently associated metaphysically with two other attornies-at-law. There's nothing to be gained by these statements except I think Justice is "part" of their Law; the other part is wheeling-and-dealing inside intricate regulations.

Frater Shiva (that's me) tries to speak to the Magister in each person and in each post, whenever his sarcasm and silly wit isn't in play. If you think that isn't so, then pay me no attention - tell me to be away, away Troll! ๐Ÿ˜›

Anyway, I Am no Achad, even if once he was my hero. I have not declared the Aeon of Ma'at to be at hand; I just said it's a level within you. That level happens to be where your Star resides.

Is it actually being suggested that adherence to the narrow middle pillar, that of perefect (more or less depending on your skill) balance, be rejected or dismissed? You see, one can adhere to the strict middle way and yet weave in and out to catch all the spheres.

Oh, maybe I see more clearly now. There is a certain place where some people have not stood. You know that card about Justice, Therion called it "Adjustment." That's Ma'at herself. Not the goddess you image-bearing dolt! The archetype. Just what is it you think she's holding between her legs?

......

It's not your pecker!


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Keith418
(@keith418)
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Posts: 127
15/08/2011 2:38 am  

Have anyone really read Nema's last book? It seems to me to be pretty fluffy bunny and New Agey. If I was worried and conflicted about Thelema, that material might look like an ideological port in the storm, but no one ever seems to spend a lot of time in that port, do they? They drop it after awhile and move on. It's not significant and deep enough to motivate anyone to apply themselves to it consistently and produce anything meaningful. One way I judge these things is by how much they really captivate people and motivate them. Since the '70s, how much impressive and deeply resonating Maatian work has there been? Not a lot. There's a reason for this.

When I look over the material from Nema, I'm not surprised at the lack of production. There's a ton of old and more less forgotten New Age systems out there. People pick them up and play with them once in awhile, but they never stick with them for long. The life-charge isn't there. The Maatian stuff is just like this.

The Maatian material so far seems like an attempt to "correct" Thelema and bring it back into line with more group-oriented and compassionate, "humanitarian" ideals. In the end, that stuff looks less and less like a movement forward, and more and more like a movement backwards... and backwards into the Old Aeon. It produces no significant arguments and no internal, "Maatian" debate. It's comfort-food, but not very nourishing in the end. Reheated and leftover Judeo-Christianity, in vaguely magical/pagan disguise, is never very nourishing.

Ironically, if there were things in the material that gravely offended people and upset them, they might start arguing about it enough to let the conflict reveal something important. But I suspect that the Maatian material was invented to soothe arguments and clear away the nagging, upsetting, difficult, and confounding elements from Thelema. Without those elements, troublesome though they may be, the system dies. It becomes another kind of superfluous, New Age, fluffy-bunny thing people get bored with pretty quickly.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 2:53 am  

Well you don't seem particularly bored with it, you've been banging on about it for three pages now.

One minute Ma'at is "New age fluffy bunny", the next it's "Old Aeon". Make up your mind already.

I suspect you're trying so hard to dismiss it because it's nagging, edgy and unsettling, difficult and confounding for you. ๐Ÿ˜‰


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 2:57 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
The Maatian material so far seems like an attempt to "correct" Thelema and bring it back into line with more group-oriented and compassionate, "humanitarian" ideals.

You might try paying better attention to what has already been said on this thread. Reread Shiva's posts. The Maatian material he presents is clearly not at all like that.

Who is the god of listening? Maybe she or he needs an aeon so we can start communicating instead of rehashing the same old shit ad nausem.

Personally, I think a better case can be made for Nema but I don't know the material.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 3:00 am  

So funny to hear someone talking of the Ma'at current as comfort food. LOL. LOOOOOOOOOL.

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4100
15/08/2011 3:04 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
On a practical level, the Aeon of Maat is about as useful to the regular practitioner in this time and place as the teachings about the coming of Maitreya would have been to the Buddhists or the End-times of the Book of Revelation would have been to the Christians. That is to say, useful only inasmuch as it puts our current existence here in the Aeon of Horus into a particular perspective, but otherwise a fertile hunting ground for misunderstanding and a breeding ground for loonies and hucksters.

The usefulness or otherwise of any tool is up to you. I find the concept of the Aeon of Maat extremely useful.

In terms of the Tetragrammaton, Maat is the Heh final, the daughter. Crowley considered that the Aeon of Horus was a preparation for it. The question is, is it a couple of thousand years away, or is it not? What, after all, is signified by the Aeons? Are they passages of time, or is there something more to it?

For instance, there may well be some tribes at present that are still organised on matriarchal lines. Looking around, patriarchy still seems alive and kicking as a pattern of social organisation. Then again, compare the aeons outlined by Crowley to other concepts of time, such as the vast passages of time represented by the Hindu yugas, besides which Crowley's aeons seem to proverbial pin-prick in eternity.

So what is time? It has seemed to me from my studies and experiences over the years that a common feature of mystical experience has been the insight that space and time are fundamentally an illusion. The Aeon of Maat represents the undifferentiated, non-dual background from which springs the diversity of manifestation.

This vision of cosmic consciousness is fundamental to magick and mysticism in my view, glimpsed in a great many traditions around the world. It's glyphed in The Book of Thoth as Atu 0, and in Little Essays Toward Truth in the essay on Silence. It has affinities with the Tao, with Buddhahood, with Ipsissimus, with Kia, and with lots more besides.

Quite useful stuff, really. You might feel that it won't butter no parsnips, but I beg to differ.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 4:38 pm  

But everything you're talking about is still bound to be pertaining to the Aeon of Horus, because you are in the Aeon of Horus. You can't conceive in any real way of what the Aeon of Maat will be like. Its like how John of Patmos saw a vision of the Aeon of Horus, and interpreted it as the End of the Universe; in fact, it was the end of a universe in a way; certainly the end of the Osirian Universe.

Whatever you perceive the Aeon of Maat to be, that's not what it is. At best, you might be able to conceive of the "Maat of Horus"; because that's the utmost you could experience. Anything else, including the suggestion that we're finished with Horus (and that way we ALL get to be the Prophet! I've just delcared the Aeon of Maat finished and the Aeon of Bob begun, in 15 minutes someone else can take a turn and that way we all get to play pretend at being Ankh-Af-na-Khonsu), or that Nyarlathotep and The Great White Space Brothers have taken you forward in time to see how it all turns out and its really "groovy, man", is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Aeons work.

Space and time are not an illusion. YOU are an illusion.

74!


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
15/08/2011 4:56 pm  

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet: Precession of the Equinoxes.

Also, Yuga

Oh,

"Swamiji" wrote:
Space and time are not an illusion. YOU are an illusion.

Pratฤซtyasamutpฤda and Anitya

It's all illusion, including time and space.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5384
15/08/2011 5:37 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
But everything you're talking about is still bound to be pertaining to the Aeon of Horus, because you are in the Aeon of Horus.

Who says he is? You are projecting YOUR concepts onto another person. All of us here at lashtal known about Horus the bird. Remember this closely, Crowley himseld identified Ma'at with Nuit, and that's a figure so dear and well-known in this Hoorish Era, right?

"Swamiji" wrote:
You can't conceive in any real way of what the Aeon of Maat will be like.

Who says he can't? I smell Restriction of concepts and thoughts here in your words. You are not being subtle or suggestive; you are stating what is, or is not, for another person. Shame on you. See Keith418 for additional moral guidance.

"Swamiji" wrote:
Whatever you perceive the Aeon of Maat to be, that's not what it is.

Tilt! Warning! You other folks (including me) are not perceiving things aright.

"Swamiji" wrote:
Anything else, including the suggestion that we're finished with Horus ...

You, SwamiJi, along with some others, have not been paying attention. Nobody here is "declaring an Aeon." Show us where that took place - in this thread - except for Achad, and he did that back in '48. It's been suggested (by me, I think) that we (humanity) are certainly in Horus - see the daily news. It has been suggested (by me, I think) that there is an internal state pretty much consistent with Chapter 1 of the threefold Book of the Law. There has been an attempt to encourage others (by me, I am sure) to see the four Aeons as stages in one's own single short life.

"Swamiji" wrote:
I've just delcared the Aeon of Maat finished and the Aeon of Bob begun ...

Indeed, and it was cute in it's time. Now that you repeat it, it's getting a bit silly. YOU HAVE DECLARED - Again, nobody else here is "declaring" anything about new Aeons AH (after Hoor).

"Swamiji" wrote:
The Great White Space Brothers have taken you forward in time to see how it all turns out and its really "groovy, man", is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Aeons work.

Oh goodness, there's three issues here. (1) You have apparently missed the space brothers contact (it's only you and me, plus a few others) and you apparently are stuck in time. (2) Nobody used the word "groovy" in connection with Ma'at or any other concept. Nobody said, "It's gonna be allright." (3) And now, for his third act, SwamiJi doesn't explain the Aeons, but he accuses others (some with vast experience) of having a "fundamental misunderstanding" of how the Aeons work.

"Swamiji" wrote:
Space and time are not an illusion. YOU are an illusion.

Hey Swami, Ji whiz, you're gonna fall off your soapbox with statements like this. Everybody knows all three are illusion.

Well, I guess not "everybody."

Michael, we better just save our breath and our time. Is time still money? I have cited a position, a concept of mind ... oh-oh-oh-ver again, until I thought they'd find ... The Aeon of Ma'at within them.

I have nothing else to say. Shiva is locked out of this thread.

Unless it changes its toon. ๐Ÿ˜‰


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 5:37 pm  

And yet if I dropped a stone on your foot, it would hurt.

But its not the concept that's wrong, its your understanding of it that's wrong. Its fairly easy for Narcissus to say "life is but a dream"; but for some reason much harder for him to say "its MY life that's the dream".


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 6:02 pm  

Einstein demonstrated through his theory on Relativity that objective time apparently does not exist. Common sense informs us that we can agree upon consensual measurements of time well enough to keep appointments. We can subjectively agree and identify so strongly with consensual time that it seems objective.

The Aeon of Horus refers to the dominant magickal formula of the "age", the age being some more or less consensual measurement of time.

Although the Aeon of Horus has been announced, the formula has been given, most of humanity seems unaware of this and continues along under the forumula of the Aeon of Osiris without really being conscious of it

It seems lawful, perhaps beneficial, for adventurous researchers to experiment with formulas of future aeons such as Maat. It seems a mistake to project their subjective realization of the formula of Maat onto everyone else by declaring a new Aeon. Not everyone will integrate the formula of Horus as quickly as they did.

IMO Achad had tendency to get ahead of himself. Though he may have realized the formula of Maat, he seems to have prematurely announced it's arrival for everyone else.

But then, I don't have all the information so my opinion could change. I look forward to reading the correspondence between Gerald Yorke and Achad on this matter.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 7:23 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
I have not declared the Aeon of Ma'at to be at hand; I just said it's a level within you. That level happens to be where your Star resides.

Well said. This actually sums it all up.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4100
15/08/2011 7:26 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
IMO Achad had tendency to get ahead of himself. Though he may have realized the formula of Maat, he seems to have prematurely announced it's arrival for everyone else.

In his copious correspondence with Yorke, Achad never expanded on how he detected the incoming of the Aeon of Truth and Justice, but just said that he "was impressed to begin" the document in which he declared its inception. He had, he said, foreseen the new Aeon many years previously, and made a reference to it in QBL. Of course, he was steeped in The Book of the Law and would have been familiar with verse 34 which anticipates the next Equinox of the Gods, as well as with Crowley's "Old Comment" to this verse which suggests that the Aeons are of indeterminate length.

Yorke was interested in Achad's work, and the exchanges between the two on the subject are extremely interesting.

Although I've not researched the matter, I daresay that history is replete with people detecting and declaring the incoming of a New Age.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 7:32 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
But everything you're talking about is still bound to be pertaining to the Aeon of Horus, because you are in the Aeon of Horus. You can't conceive in any real way of what the Aeon of Maat will be like. Its like how John of Patmos saw a vision of the Aeon of Horus, and interpreted it as the End of the Universe; in fact, it was the end of a universe in a way; certainly the end of the Osirian Universe.

Also well said. This is the pivot-point within my previous comment. Those in the know (glow) get a glimpse, as Dr. Shiva prescribed, but there is Work to do yet.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4100
15/08/2011 7:51 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
Those in the know (glow) get a glimpse, as Dr. Shiva prescribed, but there is Work to do yet.

I don't think that anybody would disagree with that.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/08/2011 7:52 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
Einstein demonstrated through his theory on Relativity that objective time apparently does not exist. Common sense informs us that we can agree upon consensual measurements of time well enough to keep appointments. We can subjectively agree and identify so strongly with consensual time that it seems objective.

The Aeon of Horus refers to the dominant magickal formula of the "age", the age being some more or less consensual measurement of time.

Although the Aeon of Horus has been announced, the formula has been given, most of humanity seems unaware of this and continues along under the forumula of the Aeon of Osiris without really being conscious of it

It seems lawful, perhaps beneficial, for adventurous researchers to experiment with formulas of future aeons such as Maat. It seems a mistake to project their subjective realization of the formula of Maat onto everyone else by declaring a new Aeon. Not everyone will integrate the formula of Horus as quickly as they did.

IMO Achad had tendency to get ahead of himself. Though he may have realized the formula of Maat, he seems to have prematurely announced it's arrival for everyone else.

But then, I don't have all the information so my opinion could change. I look forward to reading the correspondence between Gerald Yorke and Achad on this matter.

You seem to have quite a bit of information to me, Z, as one "adventurous researcher" to another. ๐Ÿ™‚ It's always a question of balance, in the end, although we often tip this way and that way to check things out from different perspectives.


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Keith418
(@keith418)
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Posts: 127
16/08/2011 3:26 pm  

Has anyone ever heard another person, in casual conversation, quote something from "Liber Pennae Praenumbra"? I never have, even from Maat "enthusiasts." Even the shallowest Thelemite knows a few verses from Liber Al, and can be counted upon to trot them out from time to time, but are the Maatian people even that sincerely caught up in Nema's work? I have to wonder whether or not this text, and others, is really as meaningful and as significant to them as they claim.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
16/08/2011 3:36 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
Has anyone ever heard another person, in casual conversation, quote something from "Liber Pennae Praenumbra"?

I've never quoted Einstein either I don't think. That doesn't mean his work didn't change the world as we know it.


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Keith418
(@keith418)
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Posts: 127
16/08/2011 3:42 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"Keith418" wrote:
Has anyone ever heard another person, in casual conversation, quote something from "Liber Pennae Praenumbra"?

I've heard magicians cite even Einstein far more than Nema.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."

- Guess Who?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
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Posts: 2964
16/08/2011 3:44 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
I've heard magicians cite even Einstein far more than Nema.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."

- Guess Who?

Does it matter? You are nitpicking.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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16/08/2011 4:29 pm  

Here, let me make it easier for you to understand...

"Keith418" wrote:
Has anyone ever heard another person, in casual conversation, quote something from "Liber Pennae Praenumbra"? I never have, even from Maat "enthusiasts." Even the shallowest Thelemite knows a few verses from Liber Al, and can be counted upon to trot them out from time to time, but are the Maatian people even that sincerely caught up in Nema's work? I have to wonder whether or not this text, and others, is really as meaningful and as significant to them as they claim.

This is simply implying that in an effort to downplay the work of Soror Nema you have resulted to measuring the impact of her work with how much that work has been quoted by "even the shallowest" of people. That is to say, if her work isn't quoted by even these people, then it must not have had an impact, and is therefore "meaning[less] and [in]significant".

To which I say...

"Azidonis" wrote:
I've never quoted Einstein either I don't think. That doesn't mean his work didn't change the world as we know it.

This indicates that even though I, as a "more than shallow Thelemite", and as an educated human being, have never had to apply your theory to works like that of Einstein. Yet Einstein's work has surely made a great impact on this world. I have rarely if ever quoted Newton, or Achad either for that matter, and both of these gents have made an impact on the world. All three of these people produced work that is both meaningful and significant.

Just because a writer doesn't have a host of fanboys running around quoting their words to make them look cool does not mean those writers' words are not meaningful or significant.

One of the most brilliant and advanced Thelemites I have ever known very rarely quoted Liber AL. When he did, it was either as a greeting, or when he was trying to elucidate a point in common language so that others may understand him. I myself try my very best not to quote anyone when making a point, as I believe that it shows an inability to formulate one's own thoughts, indicating a lack of practical experience on a matter. These two examples make a similar point: that I don't view neither the "brilliant Thelemite's work" nor my own work as meaningless or insignificant.

"Keith418" wrote:
I've heard magicians cite even Einstein far more than Nema.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
- Guess Who?

Then of course, you run right to when someone else (probably Crowley, knowing you) quoted Einstein, no doubt in an attempt to show by your logic that Crowley (or whoever it was) found Einstein's work significant and so quoted them.

It's really a bunch of crap. I have found many meaningful and significant things in my life: actions, words, and thoughts. To run around quoting them means nothing except that I remember those things and therefore quote them in place of my own thoughts. If anything, I would argue that those who quote Crowley the most are furthest from a part of the truth of Thelema, which is to create your own thoughts.

To try and measure the success of someone's Great Work by noting how much other people have quoted them is simply flawed logic.

How many more threads are you going to try and derail with such nonsense?


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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16/08/2011 4:36 pm  

So now the value of a system is measured by the propensity of it's adherents to "trot out" sound bites from an approved text?

Thought your point was to promote being less of a herd beast not more.


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 Anonymous
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16/08/2011 5:29 pm  

I'm not sure I agree with Keith's point as he expressed it, but I could say that any book that claims to be a new revelation or add-on to the Book of the Law should damn well be "evident to all"; and I think that's what he was getting at. Something truly world-shattering as to be the equivalent of the Liber AL should produce the same fruit of massive creativity and have the same level of magickal influence over the world as its predecessor. And Liber Pennae Praenumbra is not. It strikes me as the typical "4th chapter of the book of the law" that all kinds of loons and would-be prophets have tried. The Book of Babalon was at least more interesting.

The test is whether there is any real innovation added to the Great Work by this material, something useful that wasn't already there in Crowley's work. And there isn't. Instead we get Great White Space Brothers with stupid names ("N'aton"?) a vision of the future full of hemaphroditic beehive-people working in harmony (the direct opposite of the kind of vision you get in the Liber AL and its "Kings and slaves" motif; I mean, the whole point of the Aeon of Maat is man's possible evolution, and maybe that's where we're all evolving to, but if so what a let-down; not so much Zarathustras "Superman" as it is Smurf Village), and a writing style that seems like a really bad attempt to imitate Crowley's holy-book format.

That last point is a big one to me; I know these are meant to be received works, but I really doubt that The Gods themselves all speak in a pseudo-biblical poetic tone. Crowley's god did, because it was speaking through his brain, a victorian brain raised on the king james bible and little else.
If an alleged "new holy book" reads like its trying really hard to imitate that style, the style of crowley's brain, then that tells me that its coming somewhat less from real mind-blowing divine inspiration and much more from the part of the brain that says I-Want-To-Be-A-Great-Prophet-Like-Crowley. It doesn't pass the smell test.

74!


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
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16/08/2011 6:45 pm  

I'm not aware of any claims that Liber Pennae Praenumbra is comparable to The Book of the Law, nor indeed to any of the Holy Books written by or through Crowley.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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16/08/2011 7:55 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
The test is whether there is any real innovation added to the Great Work by this material, something useful that wasn't already there in Crowley's work. And there isn't. Instead we get Great White Space Brothers with stupid names ("N'aton"?) a vision of the future full of hemaphroditic beehive-people working in harmony (the direct opposite of the kind of vision you get in the Liber AL and its "Kings and slaves" motif; I mean, the whole point of the Aeon of Maat is man's possible evolution, and maybe that's where we're all evolving to, but if so what a let-down; not so much Zarathustras "Superman" as it is Smurf Village), and a writing style that seems like a really bad attempt to imitate Crowley's holy-book format.

I have to agree. Where there is a radical departure from the essential themes of Liber AL, it is more likely intended to circumvent rather than to 'expand upon' Liber AL. A continuation would not contradict what came before it, unless it is indeed a "new aeon" intended to do just that. If that is the case, best to be honest about it. I don't understand the need to continue to call it Thelema, either, frankly; it seems dishonest. Thelema is not 'everything and anything,' it is not the 'Absolute,' and therefore above scrutiny, not really. That is a convenient rationalization enabling revisionism. So is the concept of "concurrent aeons," potentially. It enables us to ignore what we don't like about Thelema and quickly 'rise above it' before it has had its truly beneficial effect.

This in no way contradicts what Shiva was saying about personal evolution/initiation, but I've always suspected that certain folks simply want to get out from under the discomfort and unpleasantness that they find in Liber AL, which I think is what Keith has been saying.

"Swamiji" wrote:
That last point is a big one to me; I know these are meant to be received works, but I really doubt that The Gods themselves all speak in a pseudo-biblical poetic tone. Crowley's god did, because it was speaking through his brain, a victorian brain raised on the king james bible and little else.
If an alleged "new holy book" reads like its trying really hard to imitate that style, the style of crowley's brain, then that tells me that its coming somewhat less from real mind-blowing divine inspiration and much more from the part of the brain that says I-Want-To-Be-A-Great-Prophet-Like-Crowley. It doesn't pass the smell test.

This is true, too. The conduit flavors the contents as they flow through it, and this is quite evident in Crowley's case in terms of it's flavor.


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 Anonymous
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16/08/2011 8:02 pm  

Its certainly presented as if it were, if not the 4th chapter, then at least the "sequel" to the Book of the Law. Its written in an attempt (mostly failed) to imitate the same style, and has the same format of deity revealing to prophet, and at least seems to be arguing a point that, if true, would be the single largest revelation in magick since the book of the law. I don't see how you can argue that its author could possibly be making any claim of liber PP being anything LESS than "comparable" to the Book of the Law.

74!


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
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16/08/2011 10:38 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
Its certainly presented as if it were, if not the 4th chapter, then at least the "sequel" to the Book of the Law. Its written in an attempt (mostly failed) to imitate the same style, and has the same format of deity revealing to prophet, and at least seems to be arguing a point that, if true, would be the single largest revelation in magick since the book of the law. I don't see how you can argue that its author could possibly be making any claim of liber PP being anything LESS than "comparable" to the Book of the Law.

74!

Could you provide an example please of Liber Pennae Praenumbra being presented as either the fourth chapter of The Book of the Law or its "sequel"?


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herupakraath
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16/08/2011 11:31 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Could you provide an example please of Liber Pennae Praenumbra being presented as either the fourth chapter of The Book of the Law or its "sequel"?

Well it does reference Nu, Had, Hadit, Heru, Heru-pa-kraath, the Hawk, and the Beast, as well as the sentences having a similar poetic delivery as those in the Book of the Law; at the very least Liber Pennae Praenumbra is a derivative of Liber L.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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16/08/2011 11:39 pm  
"herupakraath" wrote:
Well it does reference Nu, Had, Hadit, Heru, Heru-pa-kraath, the Hawk, and the Beast, as well as the sentences having a similar poetic delivery as those in the Book of the Law; at the very least Liber Pennae Praenumbra is a derivative of Liber L.

Could you provide an example please of Liber Pennae Praenumbra being presented as either the fourth chapter of The Book of the Law or its "sequel"?


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Keith418
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17/08/2011 2:24 am  

People can tell you something is meaningful and significant for them, but if you're inclined to be skeptical... then you'd want to test that.

Has anyone translated Liber PP into any other languages? Are any of them in print? How many editions of the book have appeared? Has anyone seen the websites the Maatians have put together? If this is something deeply important to them, then I'd hate to see what they took lightly. The reality doesn't follow from the rhetoric. If they cared about it as much as they claim, wouldn't we be seeing more from them? At least some of the people I know who are really into Thelema usually can be counted upon to have copies of Liber Al and other Holy texts with them at all times. I wonder if any of the Maatians have ever carried one around.

If I were a sincere Maatian, I'd be alarmed at how lax and loose the people claiming to be invested in it - along with me - actually were. It seems like something they provide with occasional lip service, but offer no deeper commitment to.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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17/08/2011 4:15 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
People can tell you something is meaningful and significant for them, but if you're inclined to be skeptical... then you'd want to test that.

Has anyone translated Liber PP into any other languages? Are any of them in print? How many editions of the book have appeared? Has anyone seen the websites the Maatians have put together? If this is something deeply important to them, then I'd hate to see what they took lightly. The reality doesn't follow from the rhetoric. If they cared about it as much as they claim, wouldn't we be seeing more from them? At least some of the people I know who are really into Thelema usually can be counted upon to have copies of Liber Al and other Holy texts with them at all times. I wonder if any of the Maatians have ever carried one around.

If I were a sincere Maatian, I'd be alarmed at how lax and loose the people claiming to be invested in it - along with me - actually were. It seems like something they provide with occasional lip service, but offer no deeper commitment to.

And this thread has not devolved into "lip service"? What makes you think any "Maatians", or any other group for that matter, have to abide by these little "proofs" that you are continually asking for?

I don't carry a copy of Liber AL or any other text around with me at all times. I don't have any copies of AL in any languages besides English, and haven't printed any. I couldn't tell you how many copies of Liber AL are to be found throughout the plethora of "Thelemic texts", and I have not put together a website devoted to Thelema.

If going by the above criteria, I am not a "Thelemite", which I assure you is quite far from the truth.

And before some of you jump to answer for Keither418 on this topic, please do me a favor, and let him speak for himself. If he can't say what he means, that's his own damn problem. It's not your job to follow his posts around this site saying, "This is what I think Keith meant".


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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17/08/2011 5:28 am  

I'll just answer for myself in terms of the question asked me; for starters liber PP is extremely derivative in style of the Liber AL; both in terms of its use of "victorian pseudo-biblical affectation" (let's call it) and even in the way it suggests that there is a conversation between the being giving the book and its "prophetess":

Stuff like:
"3. There is but one gate, though there appear to be nine, Mime- dancer of the Stars. How beautiful thy weft and web, a-shim- mering in the fire-dark of space!

4. The two that are nothing salute you, Black Flame that moves Hadit! The less and less One grows, the more and more Pra-NU may manifest. Do thou now speak to use, the children of the time-to-come; declare thy will and grant thy Love to us!"

or

"10. What means this showing-forth? Is Time Itself awry? The Hawk has flown but threescore and ten in His allotted course!

11.She smiles, as beauteous as Night:

12. Behold, He spreads His pinions yet in flight, showering and shaking forth the Golden Light upon the hearts of men. And wherein doth He fly, and by what means? The Feather and the Air are His to ride, to bear him ever in His GO-ing."

Secondly, how can you interpret it as anything other than either generally meaningless material, or as a major revelation of equivalency to the Liber AL?! Liber PP and Nema's statements relating to it presents a number of significant declarations, any of which are fundamentally connected to the Liber AL and would fundamentally change the entire concept of the Aeons and Thelema itself. Namely, that the Aeon of Maat is occuring right now, and is running concurrently with the Aeon of Horus, as a "Double Current of Magick" (to quote Nema's own commentary); that this Aeon has its own word which has already been revealed, and very much like Parsons claimed with his book of Babalon, that Maat's revelation implies the completion of the incomplete Liber AL, providing the "He-final" to the Liber AL's three chapters of Yod, He, and Vau.

Again, with all of that, how can you claim that it doesn't try to act as a kind of completion or replacement of the Liber AL?


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Keith418
(@keith418)
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17/08/2011 5:41 am  

One of the things I know about Liber Al is that many, if not most, of the people who encounter it, don't like parts of it all that much. It may shock, disturb, or upset them in some profound and lasting sense. Many adopt, over time, a kind of grudging respect for it. They may love parts of it, but fervently wish that it said something different than it actually does. They often come around to see it as representing a truth that they may not always like, or even keenly appreciate, but that they know - deep down - is nevertheless accurate. Such is its unique and peculiar power.

Liber PP, on the other hand, never seems to inspire and promote that kind of inner conflict, mental anguish, and struggle. Instead, it seems like it was written as a wish fulfillment - something that was as real and as true as Liber Al, but with a different message: a message more comforting, more reassuring, more pleasant. This is why I do not think the text is really an essential document, and I also suspect why it attracts no true & profoundly committed devotees. In order to do so, it would have to have the same upsetting and difficult aspects that Liber Al and other Holy Books have.

People may want to believe in Liber PP, they may wish it to be "true" and real, but they aren't - in the end - compelled to accept it. This lack of compelling force reveals the text's intrinsic problems.


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Azidonis
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17/08/2011 7:12 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
Liber PP, on the other hand, never seems to inspire and promote that kind of inner conflict, mental anguish, and struggle. Instead, it seems like it was written as a wish fulfillment - something that was as real and as true as Liber Al, but with a different message: a message more comforting, more reassuring, more pleasant. This is why I do not think the text is really an essential document, and I also suspect why it attracts no true & profoundly committed devotees.

According to you, there are "no true and profoundly committed devotees" to Liber PP.

No, as in none, not one single "true and profoundly committed devotee"... I'd love to see proof of that.

If you do find at least one, then your statement is just another falsehood. If you find at least as many "true and profoundly committed devotees" now, in as many years after Liber AL - as in, "Liber PP has been around for X years and has Y 'true and profoundly committed devotees', and when Liber AL had been out for X years it had Z 'true and profoundly committed devotees'" - then we can discuss the rest of your statements here.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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17/08/2011 9:23 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
Has anyone translated Liber PP into any other languages? Are any of them in print? How many editions of the book have appeared? Has anyone seen the websites the Maatians have put together?

Liber Pennae Praenumbra was printed quite a bit. You will fine it in the highly sought after Beyond the Mauve Zone by Kenneth Grant, Maat Magick, published by Weiser in 1995, and countless other places, one can watch Nema introduce and read it here, in this video hosted within a "Maatian" website:

http://www.blackmoon7.com/initiates/nema/vidNema_intro.html

(be patient, it will start)


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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17/08/2011 9:53 am  
"Keith418" wrote:
One of the things I know about Liber Al is that many, if not most, of the people who encounter it, don't like parts of it all that much. It may shock, disturb, or upset them in some profound and lasting sense. Many adopt, over time, a kind of grudging respect for it. They may love parts of it, but fervently wish that it said something different than it actually does. They often come around to see it as representing a truth that they may not always like, or even keenly appreciate, but that they know - deep down - is nevertheless accurate. Such is its unique and peculiar power.

Liber PP, on the other hand, never seems to inspire and promote that kind of inner conflict, mental anguish, and struggle. Instead, it seems like it was written as a wish fulfillment - something that was as real and as true as Liber Al, but with a different message: a message more comforting, more reassuring, more pleasant. This is why I do not think the text is really an essential document, and I also suspect why it attracts no true & profoundly committed devotees. In order to do so, it would have to have the same upsetting and difficult aspects that Liber Al and other Holy Books have.

People may want to believe in Liber PP, they may wish it to be "true" and real, but they aren't - in the end - compelled to accept it. This lack of compelling force reveals the text's intrinsic problems.

Who cares?


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2011 12:33 pm  
"Swamiji" wrote:
for starters liber PP is extremely derivative in style of the Liber AL; both in terms of its use of "victorian pseudo-biblical affectation"

Agreed, and it makes no attempt to dodge such an accusation.

Neither does Parsons' Liber 49.

I see these, and Crowley's "Holy Books", as parts of a vast body of mystical literature including things like The Voice of the Silence, Tao Te Ching, parts of the Bible, and all the rest.

Seriously: never trust a guy who only reads one book!


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2011 6:23 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
"Swamiji" wrote:
for starters liber PP is extremely derivative in style of the Liber AL; both in terms of its use of "victorian pseudo-biblical affectation"

Agreed, and it makes no attempt to dodge such an accusation.

Neither does Parsons' Liber 49.

I see these, and Crowley's "Holy Books", as parts of a vast body of mystical literature including things like The Voice of the Silence, Tao Te Ching, parts of the Bible, and all the rest.

Seriously: never trust a guy who only reads one book!

Certainly, and as you can see I've read Liber PP. I'm hardly an orthodox crowleyite or anything like that, either. I'm enough of a heretic to say that I don't think that any of the other holy books Crowley wrote are really particularly worthwhile, compared to the Liber AL, or indeed to other scriptures (buddhist, classical, tantrist, or christian, among others), that I think (despite being "old aeon") are far more useful to the student. I think that reading the Tao Te Ching or the Bhagavad Gita are probably much more useful for illumination than Liber LXV, and I see all of the non Liber AL holy books as probably just coming from Crowley's Inspired Self rather than true revelation in the style of Liber AL.

And clearly, I've read liber PP. But I just find nothing in it to be of value, I find it derivative or pointless. At least Crowley's Inspired Self is brilliant enough that there are some real jewels in the holy books regardless, but Nema's Crowley-Copying Self is just weak source in comparison.

74!


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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
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17/08/2011 9:45 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
People can tell you something is meaningful and significant for them, but if you're inclined to be skeptical... then you'd want to test that.

Has anyone translated Liber PP into any other languages? Are any of them in print? How many editions of the book have appeared? Has anyone seen the websites the Maatians have put together? If this is something deeply important to them, then I'd hate to see what they took lightly. The reality doesn't follow from the rhetoric. If they cared about it as much as they claim, wouldn't we be seeing more from them? At least some of the people I know who are really into Thelema usually can be counted upon to have copies of Liber Al and other Holy texts with them at all times. I wonder if any of the Maatians have ever carried one around.

If I were a sincere Maatian, I'd be alarmed at how lax and loose the people claiming to be invested in it - along with me - actually were. It seems like something they provide with occasional lip service, but offer no deeper commitment to.

Liber PP is translated in Serbian ๐Ÿ˜›


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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17/08/2011 10:33 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Who cares?

I tend to agree, Noctifer.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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