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Tiger
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23/06/2019 5:06 am  

How to navigate the coming anarchic communal agreement 101
for the school of leadership
or was it under the psychology or the philosophy department ?
hmm i don’t see it in the study of homo sapiens department
maybe i got the course of the name wrong

hook me up with the link


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Tiger
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23/06/2019 5:16 am  

it started out as a recommendation
and ended up as a request
so it probably should be in the request section
so
bump


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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23/06/2019 6:01 am  

whats happening.. did someone quit as leader ..of what?
study of homosapiens.. ? bloody aliens the lot of them.. bloody asthma too..


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 Anonymous
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23/06/2019 8:20 am  

This thread is timely. Kairos.

Spirituality in politics has been a subject under discussion with the rise of Marianne Williamson in the US Democratic primary.

The thought of an initiate as a candidate brought to mind a verse from The Book of Codes Ch.2 ver10 which recommends that high office political leaders should be high initiates.

While she isn't Thelemic she does appear to be someone who has gone through trials and done work to advance on the path.
I picked up Illuminata, a devotional book she wrote, a few weeks ago and some of the things she'd written in the introduction and Part I share a similar tone as some of Thelema's inspired writings. Interpreting it in the light of Liber XXX.

When I first started watching her candidacy she made a twitter post(later deleted) about Shakti, the quantum realm and energy and it read like Nuit, Hadit, Ra Hoor Khuit. I wish the tweet wasn't deleted so I could share it with you.
She makes these types of tweets on occasion and deletes them. Not very often. I think they're meant for initiates and not the general public so she doesn't leave them up. Just long enough to get the message out. Providing a visualization cue or focus or similar intent. They're probably archived somewhere.

She recently qualified for the first round of debates against all expectation and the desires of some.
It'll be interesting watching her campaign develop and how she does in the debates.
While she may not become the Democratic nominee she has already inspired others and opened some inroads and helped show the layout of some of the path and obstacles in the process for those who are seeking office and are openly spiritual. This could also apply to and benefit Thelemites.


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dom
 dom
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23/06/2019 12:11 pm  

Having difficulty understanding the content of OP.

Title, fine. OP , not so fine.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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23/06/2019 2:09 pm  

I am happy to argue about politics, and why i am an anarchist-communist, and why i think anarchist communism is philosophically well-aligned with Thelema.

However, i am not interested in providing basic education in anarchist and communist theory, practice, and history. If you want to tell my why i am wrong, please at least have some idea of what might be meant by anarchist communism.

You need to have some idea what, eg, Marx, Kropotkin, Stirner, Bakunin, Malatesta, Goldman, Berkman, and Bookchin said/wrote, and what happened in the Paris Commune, the Russian revolution (Kronstadt and Makhnos's struggles in the Ukraine especially), the IWW's labor struggles, and the Spanish Civil War.

I would urge reading at a bare minimum the following two wikipedia articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism


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Shiva
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23/06/2019 4:44 pm  

Ig: I am happy to argue about politics, and why i am an anarchist-communist, and why i think anarchist communism is philosophically well-aligned with Thelema.

AC described his OTO Constitution as Aristocratic Communism. I don't think that's the same as arnarchistic-communism.

Aristocrat:

1. A member of a ruling class or of the nobility.
2. A person who advocates government by an aristocracy.
3. Government by the best individuals or by a small privileged class.
4. A government in which power is vested in a minority consisting of those believed to be best qualified.

This last definition (#4) seems the best, if "best qualified" means "Wisdom."
I have deep reservations about the "small privileged class" in #3. Why in the hell should they be "privileged" above and beyond the common person?


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 Anonymous
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23/06/2019 8:18 pm  

@shiva Aristocrat:

aristocrat here is a huge slot machine company.

None of those four definitions of Aristocrat are acceptable as society stands today. Your number 4 best qualified interpretation wisdom works best for me but again, as believed by who. If we take this forum and the regular crowd for example. Who you would believe to be the best man for the job of king lashtal probably differs greatly from mine. Then again possibly not it may align if we both used our own wisdom. Interesting thought there anyway.

=================================
edit later

@Ignant
I have sex pistols singing in my head, reminiscing about my "punk days" to tell the truth It was one of the only punk songs i really liked. I walked the walk, talked the talk but it wasn't a right fit. I skimmed the wiki anarchy page, a few paragraphs in it lost me. I saw a design fault.

The other link however.. brb that one sparked me

ok
this
The New Law of Righteousness, that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself"

a simplistic form but the "common treasury" bit is the stopper. it implies mankind has dominion. He doesn't .. Anyhow Im off to bed and will read through that page in more detail when I wake up. Thanks Ignant and everyone else for some new ponderings
======================================

It would be nice to see a working model of Anarchism to gauge it's success factor. I think any anarchistic society would revert back to a pyramid of power after a period of time. Because human nature.

If our society switched to anarchism, which it could possibly do in an instant, if something like a massive solar flare hit then it's survival of the fittest first before any community ideals are bought to the table.

The trouble I see with a sudden switch like that is once again, you have a power versus non power situation. The smartest (not brainiest) and the toughest would be at the top of the pyramid. using myself as an example as I think from my perspective and expand out.. I may be smart but Im old, 5 foot nothing, scrawny as. So not able to get by on beauty and whats between my legs so to speak, being smart I'd figure out what the tough guys NEED... and trade.. my brains for their backup. It would be a co dependent relationship, both benefiting, the brawn needing the brains and the brains needing the brawn. But I would always have to watch my back, some other smartbutt would want what I had and eventually figure out how to do it. So my ideal would be to set someone else up as the front, which from experience works better. let someone else be the fall guy. Guide them to what you want but step back when shit goes to clay.

In this type of system, I feel you would eventually get "the shadow". The power behind the power. What's that lodge all the pres's belong to? very masonic type. I remember a photo of them all grinning. Someone may know? Something like that anyway.

basically very much like our society today. We are capitalist. Every man for himself but the money still channels that pyramid shape, poor at bottom to the elite at top. As does communism.

Socialism comes close to working but once again human nature. It's not easy because of history. History sets that example. Prejudices exist. 7 deadly sins exist.

I've looked at this one all ways and still do.

The systems I wish to look at no longer exist. The oracle of Delphi is my biggest "curious" at the moment. Everywhere I look in Egyptian and Hebrew systems have the "priests" controlling. I'd love to see before the priests. Before Opollo turned the mother's mirror back at the temple and killed the serpents, when what I believe to be a female psychic line didnt rule as such but their word was law basically. It was the truth.

The royal lines of europe were developed after this. When Opollo killed the serpent, the original oracle and the twin serpents temple guards that became the cadaceus, oppollo bought "virgins" in, whom weirdly he had to cleanse. So I guess, oppollo was trying to breed a gene which he had killed off in the serpent and mix it with his genes and create the masters the royal lines of europe. The habsburgs and co.

So with that aspect a monarchy as government today has no value as a political system. Only because people arent stupid, it 2019 we are mostly all educated and we know that these royal lines are no better than us.

and oppollo wasn't successful. He didnt get the gene, he only got parts of it, so hence the queen isn't in buckingham palace sniffing vapours... although somethings keeping her going

Communism an ideal I always leaned to. Now that I am older, I see the bastardization in that system to. Roman A????? forget his name love his yachts though, I've spent many an hour on google poring over them. Owns a soccer team and is a great mate of Putin. Perfect example of a failure of a system.

Crowley says basically paraphrased: Each person is who they are and nobody else. he says a king is a king and basically a slave is a slave. I don't like the term slave, because history once again and i was never into D&B. So Ill use the example a soldier is a soldier a writer is a scribe a cook is a cook. A child carer is a child carer. What he is saying is that each person inside, with their true will is what he or she is was and always will be. None raised up and none tossed down.

So I believe him, he is yet to lie to me so that means either
no changes to how it is now everything is as it should be Or revelations to restore a community based society to allow everyone to become who they are.


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dom
 dom
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23/06/2019 11:14 pm  

I'd just like to pose a few questions before (or if I can) do further research.

Crowley said that Nietzsche was "almost an avatar of Thoth". With that said we can safely assume that a lot of AC's ideas about Thelema and politics criss-cross with Nietzschean socio-political outlooks. Therefore I assume that AC lumped the slave morality theory of Christianity with any type of urge towards 'dictatorship by the proletariat' as a malign force of resentement. How can you therefore reconcile any notion of Thelema with such movements? Unless of course the predatorial dominant blonde beast is using stealth in such chaotic situations where he emerges as shrewd, sneaky corrupt self-orientated party member (or leader) e.g. Joseph Stalin. Orwell's Animal Farm and all that.

Secondly, on the subject of Stalin, you are aware that the reactionary forces in The Spanish Civil War were genuinely shit-scared that Spain would become a Soviet satellite state. Stalin was interested in this strategy.

Finally, how do you explain the likes of Stalin or Pol Pot? Were such notorious figures always in it for themselves right from the get-go or did they ever have any genuine ,( how can I put this?), altruistic egalitarian impulses? I recommend you watch this movie which gives a great perspective on the self-conflicts that Max Robespierre went through;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-b7Rtu-nuk

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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23/06/2019 11:35 pm  

david; as i said above, i am not interested in debating my politics with the utterly uninformed. Please read at least the two wikipedia articles above before trying again.

As an example of your utter ignorance of anarchism, anarchist-communism, 20th-century left politics, and 20th-century history in general, you are correct that

the reactionary [in fact Fascist, and allied with Hitler and Mussolini] forces in The Spanish Civil War were genuinely shit-scared that Spain would become a Soviet satellite state. Stalin was interested in this strategy.

However, the Fascists, and the Soviet-backed Communists alike, were even more "genuinely shit-scared" that the Anarchist forces of the CNT-FAI would succeed in their revolution.

Communist forces attacked Anarchist forces numerous times in their effort to hijack to Spanish Revolution for the Soviet cause. Shortly after Franco succeeded in crushing the government forces on behalf of the fascist counter-revolution, Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution_of_1936

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 12:06 am  

Me, ignorant of the events of the 20th century and modern history per se? That's a sweeping statement. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone else here who even knows who Max Robespierre was.

Ego aside, I'm curious as to why you won't at least answer me on the issue of e.g. Robespierre and other harsh revolutionary leaders. Was he ever driven by initial egalitarian impulses? It's an important question.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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24/06/2019 12:14 am  

@dom

Therefore I assume that AC lumped the slave morality theory of Christianity with any type of urge towards ‘dictatorship by the proletariat’ as a malign force of resentement. How can you therefore reconcile any notion of Thelema with such movements?

So you think that Crowley's understanding of Thelema is the last word?

It's not difficult to see a collectivist interpretation of Thelema. Take, for instance, the principle that "every man and every woman is a star". Stars don't usually cavort capriciously through abysses of interstellar space. On the contrary, they have their own orbits, which interweave with the orbits of other stars. They are parts of a greater whole, through and in which they find expression.

In the 1970s I spent several years living on a kibbutz in Israel. Though I was merely a volunteer worker and thus in effect hired help, I did find it interesting to observe how the kibbutz functioned. The members of the kibbutz were on the same wage, and received this same wage no matter how much or how little effort they made. Despite this, there seemed to me few backsliders; those were immigrants to Israel, rather than Israelis who had grown up on the kibbutz and were imbued with its values and ethics.

Having been politically of the left since my 'teens. I find no difficulty whatever in reconciling Thelema and socialism. I appreciate that others can do likewise with right-wing politics.


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Shiva
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24/06/2019 12:19 am  

D: ... we can safely assume ...

"SAFELY" AND "ASSUME," TAKEN TOGETHER, FORM AN OXYMORON. [PUNCH "Caps Lock" button].

Ignant, it seems that dom didn't catch your "C" vs "c" comment. He continues to refer to Communism, the dictator type of government.


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ignant666
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24/06/2019 12:46 am  

Me, ignorant of the events of the 20th century and modern history per se? That’s a sweeping statement. I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone else here who even knows who Max Robespierre was.

Robespierre died in 1794.

Q.E.D.

Was [Robespierre] ever driven by initial egalitarian impulses? It’s an important question.

Evidently, in addition to being abysmally ignorant of 18th-20th century history, you have never been to France. The motto of the French Revolution was/is "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité"

French coin


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Shiva
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24/06/2019 1:44 am  

ms: So you think that Crowley’s understanding of Thelema is the last word?

Well, yes, if one wants to base their outlook/inlook upon Crowley's writings, and then interpret them according to one's predilection.

It seems you might be suggesting that we read Crowley, then move on to our own experiences - as recommended by ... Crowley. What a novel idea!


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 Anonymous
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24/06/2019 1:54 am  

The motto of the French Revolution was/is “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

These words bring to mind Marianne.


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ignant666
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24/06/2019 2:27 am  

Who, one might note, wears, along with her Phrygian "Liberty" cap, the Masonic square and compasses on her sash, reflecting the Freemasonic/Illuminati roots of the French Revolution.

A goddess who needs more bhakti, and other, more practical, worship.

Liberty Leading the People


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Tiger
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24/06/2019 4:54 am  

beautiful imagery
i was gonna go with pallas athena

but
“The motto of the French Revolution was/is “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”
These words bring to mind Marianne. “

got my attention
first time seeing her
around these parts.

what was her name again ?
Marianne ?

i’m gonna have to look her up
and start learnin some french


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Tiger
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24/06/2019 4:54 am  

thanks


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elitemachinery
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24/06/2019 6:53 am  

@michaelstaley said:

Having been politically of the left since my ‘teens. I find no difficulty whatever in reconciling Thelema and socialism. I appreciate that others can do likewise with right-wing politics.

A Thelemite should be able to find his way under any political atmosphere, no?


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 7:59 am  

@Ignant

Yes 1794 ie modern history which is the period since the French Revolution. Yes the three principles of the revolution, you actually think I didn't know that?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 8:55 am  

Apologies,didn't read other posts. Thought you were answering my Robespierre question.

Anyone familiar with RAWs Illuminatus trilogy? Lots of anarchist theory in there.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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24/06/2019 10:42 am  

@elitemachinery

A Thelemite should be able to find his way under any political atmosphere, no?

Not sure what you mean by "find his way". If you mean "can adapt to", then yes.


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 11:11 am  

The Phrygian cap and the ancient Mithras cult. See my Sothic cycles thread for more on this.

Anyway folks get reading Ignant's wiki links then see you back here.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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belmurru
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24/06/2019 11:28 am  

I've always voted, when I could (in Canada, and now France). I vote tactically, not partisan, for the various levels of government. People shunned me for voting for the sometimes distasteful right-wing Robert Ménard for mayor of Béziers (and he has done almost everything I expected, and more in many cases). But I would not dream of voting for him for President of France, or in the European Parliament. Conversely, I support Macron's party on the national and international level, although they enact many policies that I dislike personally. I know where things are going and where I want them to go generally, and this party is best suited to deliver it.

My thought-experiments, informed by as much history as I can learn and continue learning, have tended to result in liberal democracy as the least-worse option for the majority of people. The premise of this formula is of course utilitarian - the greatest good for the greatest number - which seems reasonable as a standard. But it is not necessarily true, or Thelemic.

But Chapter 81 of the Book of Lies, the book which has probably influenced my thinking more than any other since I was steeped in it from the age of 15, is always drumming in the back of my mind, reminding me that instinctively I am for Aristocracy (aristos - the best):

Louis Lingg

I am not an Anarchist in your sense of the word:
your brain is too dense for any known explosive to affect it.
I am not an Anarchist in your sense of the word:
fancy a Policeman let loose on Society!
While there exists the burgess, the hunting man, or any man with ideals less than Shelley's and self-discipline less than Loyola's - in short, any man who falls far short of MYSELF - I am against Anarchy, and for Feudalism.
Every "emancipator" has enslaved the free.

We have a lot of emancipators these days.


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elitemachinery
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24/06/2019 11:39 am  

@michael-staley said:

Not sure what you mean by “find his way”. If you mean “can adapt to”, then yes.

I didn't word my question very well.

A Thelemite can operate in any political climate.

Being a Thelemite does not exclude one from participating in any of the various political entities.

Is Thelema limited more or less by any certain political philosophies?


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Michael Staley
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24/06/2019 12:16 pm  

@elitemachinery

Is Thelema limited more or less by any certain political philosophies?

No, I don't think it is. In my view it's more to do with a person's existing predilections, which in my case have been left-wing as long as I can remember. I'm arawe, for instance, that a collectivist interpretation of Thelema is just that - an interpretation. I can remember when first coming across The Book of the Law that I found some things simply unacceptable, and still do.


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ignant666
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24/06/2019 2:00 pm  

Inspired by this thread, i ordered Pasi's Aleister Crowley and the temptation of politics, which i have put off reading for far too long. It is said to be very good, and the most serious scholarly book to look at AC.

I do not take my ideas about politics from AC, and would argue that his politics were both rather unsophisticated, and extremely incoherent- often mired in his love of posing and paradox. Rather, my politics derive from the question: what would allow the most people the best chances of doing their will?

Work/wage-slavery is clearly a big impediment to self-realization or creativity for many people. It is no accident that most mystics and magicians (like many left revolutionaries- Kropotin was a prince) come from the bourgeoisie and lived on inherited wealth. Thus, anti-capitalism.

Authority, law, tradition, "the way it's always been": these too act to constrain individual liberty, often at gunpoint, and always with the threat that armed men will enforce the will of those in power. Thus, anti-authoritarianism.

Put them together: anarcho-communism.


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 2:05 pm  

@Ignant and everyone

I have visited the wiki pages recommended abd i already knew about anarchist ideology mainly via history at school where i received an A grade and via the psychedelic ramblings of RAW in his Illuminatus novel,jointly written.

Basically anarchists are against any form of state entity or coercion and this includes the leftist states. The term 'Privi-lege' comes from the Latin for private law. Property is generally seen as theft and money is viewed as an unnecessay tool.

My view is that if you were to remove the state and money from human history then we would still be hunting and gathering in our bare feet. Neolithic. Screw that.

Who cleans out the toilets in an anarchist colony? What about law and order. It seems to be the height of naivety to think that this is a viable option in our modern civilisation.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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24/06/2019 3:24 pm  

Who cleans out the toilets in an anarchist colony?
you would have to clean your own shit

then you might be better able to help clean others


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 4:57 pm  

And those who refused to clean their own shit? That's the beauty of state, law and order and the imposition of penalties for anti-social behaviour.

I guess the anarchist would refer to Rousseau's 'noble savage' theory whereby it would be the existence of the state that induces anti social behaviour.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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24/06/2019 5:08 pm  

i already knew about anarchist ideology mainly via history at school where i received an A grade

Grades? Schmades!

Both our pal david, in the last week.

I commend you for at least making some effort to understand anarchism.


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dom
 dom
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24/06/2019 5:47 pm  

Different context mate.

In the other thread we were discussing true inclinations and school grades. Now I'm telling you your wrong about me being ignorant about modern history.

Feel free to address my challenges to the view that anarchism is useful by the way.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Tiger
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24/06/2019 5:58 pm  

“ via history at school where i received an A grade
Rousseau’s ‘noble savage’ theory “

“ Contrary to what is sometimes believed, Jean-Jacques Rousseau never used the phrase noble savage (French bon sauvage). “
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

thanks dom
i’m learning

and of course everyone else


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dom
 dom
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25/06/2019 12:13 am  

@ignant

Rather, my politics derive from the question: what would allow the most people the best chances of doing their will?

Crowley recognized that most rookie magicians are lazy. It crops up in his writings now and again. Gurdjieff took this even further.

Work/wage-slavery is clearly a big impediment to self-realization or creativity for many people

Is it? I can't help but see this as your own personal projection.

. It is no accident that most mystics and magicians (like many left revolutionaries- Kropotin was a prince) come from the bourgeoisie and lived on inherited wealth. Thus, anti-capitalism.

Blake? Rasputin? Gurdjieff? Regardie "born in the vilest slum in London", RAW was not from a wealthy family either. Colin Wilson I guess he could be described a some sort of mystic (or someone interested in 'mystical expereince')....again...not wealthy background.

Authority, law, tradition, “the way it’s always been”: these too act to constrain individual liberty, often at gunpoint, and always with the threat that armed men will enforce the will of those in power. Thus, anti-authoritarianism.
Put them together: anarcho-communism

No, general capitalist techno-civilization with a decent amount of free press and democracy and the right to be in a Trade Union will suffice. Not a return to the Neolithic.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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25/06/2019 12:54 am  

@Shiva :

AC described his OTO Constitution as Aristocratic Communism. I don’t think that’s the same as arnarchistic-communism.
Aristocrat:

AC claimed that the Most Supreme one out of the Supreme and Most Holy Kings (a.k.a.O.H.O. of O.T.O.) was meant to be an "enlightened depot". In actuality he was not so much a regal aristocrat as an authentic autocrat having the final say-so (says-so in the scrip, I mean, constitutional documents). The only built-in check to runaway tyranny was the 2 IXth degree "revolutionaries" whose function was to criticise his actions wherever appropriate, a bit like the Holy Fool in Shakespeare --- but done away with, in true autocratic fashion, by the current incumbent of that post, Hymenaeus Beta. (cf. rise of Hitler, Stalin & other totalitarian dictators: who having risen to power by means of ascending a constitutional ladder, then kick said ladder away).

@mayet :

What’s that lodge all the pres’s belong to? very masonic type. I remember a photo of them all grinning. Someone may know? Something like that anyway.
Could you mean the Skull and Bones? Welcome back, BTW --- older, wiser, ceterer?

@dom :

Me, ignorant of the events of the 20th century and modern history per se? That’s a sweeping statement. I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone else here who even knows who Max Robespierre was.
That's a sweeping statement! I imagine quite a few do... count me in for one: wasn't he the geezer in the French revolution who got stabbed somewhere in the bathtub (a most sensitive area)? I'm jest choking!

Who cleans out the toilets in an anarchist colony?
Do you think it would be too much of a betrayal of basic anarchist principles to have organized such an egalitarian thing as a *gasp* rota?

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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25/06/2019 10:16 am  

@dom

Socialism works best in small communities where people work together towards an ideal they have in common. Examples would be religious institutions and kibbutzes. At one time in my late 'teens I was reading books by Karl Marx, and it was there that I first came across the phrase "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". I found that a stirring idea, and still do.

Society has developed on very different lines for hundred, perhaps thousands of years. People have been conditioned to think in terms of self-advancement. It's my opinion that socialism is an ideal to be striven for. However, for the time being it will only work in small communities with a common goal.

It's because I consider the ideal a worthy one that I am a socialist. That doesn't mean that I give away all my possessions and money, but that socialism is the direction in which I think society will move.


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dom
 dom
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25/06/2019 11:21 am  

@tiger

You are trying to pull me up on the Rousseau reference which you found in wikipedia? Rousseau, if you knew anything about, which you don't, has long been associated with the term "noble savage" whether he coined the term or not. Maybe look for Rousseau on wiki and see how ridiculous your gotcha attempt was.

@Micheal

Yes small communities. I suspect that's what Ignant wants. It's naive but hey maybe it's someone's true will to be part ofca socio-political train wreck I dunno.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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25/06/2019 12:21 pm  

@dom

Yes small communities. I suspect that’s what Ignant wants. It’s naive but hey maybe it’s someone’s true will to be part ofca socio-political train wreck I dunno.

The kibbutz on which I lived and worked for three years in the mid-1970s certainly wasn't a "socio-political train wreck"; nor are, to the best of my knowledge, religious institutions. On the other hand, I think the term "socio-political train wreck" is a fairly good description of society in its current state. There is a better way, and I think we'll get there in the end.

It's striking that you don't discuss the principles underlying socialism in relation to Thelema, but prefer to throw up (pardon the pun) questions like "who will clean the toilets?" or point to examples of tyranny such as Stalin or Pol Pot, as if collectivist principles are bound to lead to such an outcome. Your conjecture in an earlier post that only you and ignant were aware of Rousseau is absurd; he's hardly an obscure character, for heaven's sake.


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dom
 dom
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25/06/2019 1:41 pm  

Micheal,

A Kibbutz is a place which intelligent decent people generally seek out. In reality, the wider society is peppered with slackers, chavs, scallywag assholes and worse.

Authority in the real world is a necessity isn't it? Now if reasonable people get together then yeah they could possibly exist under anarchic circumstances but I'm being real about what society consists of...See above.

That's why socialism turns into fascism.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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belmurru
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25/06/2019 2:32 pm  

dom -
"That’s why socialism turns into fascism."

Socialism does not turn into fascism. That seems to be an absurd statement. It doesn't matter that Mussolini called himself a socialist while Prime Minister in the Republic, nor that the Nazi party's official name had "socialist" in it, any more than the fact that Kim Jong Un's dictatorship is called the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea." Those words mean nothing.

Neither the Kingdom of Italy, a parliamentary republic, nor the Weimar Republic of Germany, were socialist countries in any way before the founder of fascism and his greatest admirer turned their countries into one-party totalitarian dictatorships. The state of Cambodia/Kampuchea before Pol Pot took over was technically republican, but in any case not a socialist state by any measure.

So none of the most notorious fascist regimes of the 20th century went from socialism to fascism.

If you consider Cuba or Venezuela to be fascist regimes, I'll let you look up their political systems immediately prior to their communist and socialist revolutions.

You might also want to look up Spain before Franco, and Chile before Pinochet, before concluding that socialism turns into fascism.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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25/06/2019 2:41 pm  

@dom

It is not true to say that a kibbutz is "a place which intelligent decent people generally seek out". The kibbutzes served a specific function in Jewish settlement of Pasestine. In the early days (pre-Israel) They were usually farming establishments whose function was via collective endeavour to work the land. It worked. The kibbutz movement has been in decline for many years now.

There is no "real world".

Socialism on the kibbutz did not "turn into facism". I had hoped that in this thread you would discuss politics and Thelema. Instead, with your glib, frankly mindless clichés you sound increasingly like a Daily Mail editorial.


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Tiger
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25/06/2019 3:00 pm  

“ the wider society is peppered with slackers, chavs, scallywag assholes and worse.
Authority in the real world is a necessity isn’t it?
That’s why socialism turns into fascism. “

dom
you sound like someone that has read Crowley 100 times; and only spent time memorizing dates and names .

i am learning how to practice politeness and learning to better my french.
Know ?

and still waiting for dom to say something

https://youtu.be/PCyi9rbWR48


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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25/06/2019 3:17 pm  

@Tiger

and still waiting for dom to say something

Like Diana Ross, we're all still waiting . . .


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belmurru
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25/06/2019 3:35 pm  

And while comparing real fascist regimes with the systems they replaced, have a look at what the Murdoch media and its followers call "socialist" countries, even socialist hell-holes, today, and ask how close they are to turning into fascism.

I mean countries like Sweden, Denmark, and Norway, or Canada and the UK, or even France, the favourite punching-bag of the anglosphere. Are they, or we (I live in France and am a French citizen), perilously close to moving from our social democracies into full-blown totalitarian dictatorships? You mean Macron secretly wants goose-stepping legions down the Champs-Elysées and book burnings at the Sorbonne? Who knew? Or Trudeau wants a registry of all citizens who can't prove 5 generations of residency in the country? Wow, I never knew.

Any they any closer, that is, than the USA?

I think what you and the sources that inform you mean something else by "fascism" than what it has historically meant.


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Jamie J Barter
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25/06/2019 3:54 pm  

Michael Staley to dom :

I had hoped that in this thread you would discuss politics and Thelema. Instead, with your glib, frankly mindless clichés you sound increasingly like a Daily Mail editorial.

This was exactly the thought which crossed my mind as well! David/ Dom seems to growing ever more reactionary and right wing with every fresh post and mutating into Colonel Blimp from Tunbridge Wells before our eyes (hopefully our overseas cousins will be able to get these rather 'Brit' cultural references)

N Joy


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ignant666
(@ignant666)
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25/06/2019 5:47 pm  

A song for david:

https://youtu.be/LNrzsSgCTAQ


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dom
 dom
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25/06/2019 6:18 pm  

@belmurru

dom –
“That’s why socialism turns into fascism.”

Socialism does not turn into fascism. That seems to be an absurd statement

It is, as it is written absurd and I apologise, obviously it would be more accurate to say that's why when socialism turns into fascism that is the reason ie backstabbing scallywag assholes in it for themselves rise through the ranks.

@michael

Michael, the kibbutz did attract idealistic people in the main.... not louts and slackers.

. I had hoped that in this thread you would discuss politics and Thelema. Instead, with your glib, frankly mindless clichés you sound increasingly like a Daily Mail editorial.

Thelemically speaking I view the aeonics as an overriding factor ie IAO. We were anarchic in our ancient nomadic Isisian past then came aristocracies and great cities and empires ie "the state" of the Setian-Osirisian era which granted us what we call civilization. Good luck if you want to dismantle all connections with state via small isolated self-sufficient communities. Isn't that what Crowley's Cefalu experiment was supposed to be? Autonomous individuals pushing off to live together Thelemically?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
(@jamiejbarter)
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Posts: 1540
25/06/2019 8:08 pm  

@dom :

Good luck if you want to dismantle all connections with state via small isolated self-sufficient communities. Isn’t that what Crowley’s Cefalu experiment was supposed to be?

No. The Abbey was never (meant to be) any such self-sufficient community where they all lived off the land a la The Good Life, growing all their own produce and farming their own food off the land, milking their own cows, tanning their own hide, etc.: A.C. & co. had to toddle off into town just like everyone else every few days to stock up on the basic essentials of life at the Abbey: bread, drinking water, enough class A drugs...

N Joy


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dom
 dom
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25/06/2019 9:27 pm  

Thelema and politics?

Who cares what the given external economic system is if you can't even do the prescribed "obey my prophet" exercises from e.g. Liber E and/or Liber O and so on?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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