Take over the airports.
Free the British from tyranny;
give them their Brexit.
Put everyone on an unregulated ship
and bill dom
for it
even if he knows a thing or two about it.

Michael- i pointed out this fairly obvious thing several times, as recently as the last page of the thread.

Obviously, when we discuss US history and politics, as an American with 21 years of formal education, with all my grad school work in both law and criminology including lots of US history, focused on policing of poor Americans, i have a certain amount of background here. I doubt UK elementary and secondary schools offer US history as a mandatory class every single year starting in first grade.

Then there is the fact that my dad was a Civil War buff (the last veterans were still alive when he was a kid in the '30s), so i grew in a house with maybe a hundred books about the war, and recordings of marching songs that dad listened to (and that i thus know the words of by heart), and had visited every major battlefield by age 12 or so. Oh did i mention that the house where i lived as a teenager was where famous abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison was married and lived for years, and from which he published the abolitionist journal The Liberator? So there's that stuff.

Then my mom the genealogy buff had a huge collection of Civil War stuff (in my attic now that she's gone) from all my family members who fought (on the side of "the Union and the law", of course): pictures of them in their uniforms, their US Army service records, letters home like the one i quoted above, etc.

Then there is the fact that in May, in preparation for this debate (just my psychic powers at work), i read the 500 page Personal Memoirs of Gen. (later President) Ulysses S. Grant, the brilliant military strategist who won the war for the Union, and a very good writer. The Memoirs include detailed, play-by-play description, with maps showing terrain and disposition of troops, of every battle, and campaign he was involved in- that is, all of them.

Grant, as interpreted and refined by J.F.C. Fuller, essentially invented modern warfare in his victorious Civil War campaigns. Previously, it was held as axiomatic that an army in the field could only advance as far and as fast as its supply trains and baggage wagons could support it. Grant's innovation was to attack relentlessly, supporting troops by living off the land and farms as they advanced far beyond their supplies, while capturing and destroying enemy supplies, and the capacity to replace supplies (this strategy got much more effective with the invention of bombers in the 20th century, but the version with infantry with torches worked pretty well). The strategy culminated in (among other campaigns) Sherman's burning of Atlanta, and his march to the sea, burning plantations (and thus destroying the wealth, and capacity to sustain themselves, of the traitor rebels), and freeing (and arming) slaves as they advanced.

In America, we like Grant so much we put him on our money:

Okay to all entries and defeated contenders.

I precursed this thread, over there in the Amado thread where the nice but crystallized, Christian lady got contemporary-political. I nixed the politics, but Tiger (in his altercatory mentat) simply popped up over here and started this thread. Then the folks went all over the globe, coming down to the US Civil war.

Now ... Where does Thelema fit in to today's political scene?

(I got this far … when the LAShTAL site went down; other sites would load just fine).

(Now it’s back online … what happened?)

I suggest that “Man (et woman) has the right to vote as he (she) Will – in places where voting is allowed. Traditional monarchies and dictator-states require hope and help from other spells.

In case you missed it, the question on the floor is …

Where does Thelema fit in to today's political scene?

My version of "Thelema In politics" is about being free, for as many as possible, whether American or not.

Both kinds of free-dom: free as in "free beer", and free as in "free speech".

People need enough to eat, and places to live, and to be left alone to live their lives as they will. At the very least.

The Abolitionists, the "Wobblies", and '60s-'70s radicals like the Yippies/Zippies, Weathermen, and Rising Up Angry/Young Patriots were some guideposts (along with lots and lots of reading) in the evolution of my particular all-American (flag flying in front of my house as i type, and i own guns) anarchist/socialist bohemian politics. And punk rock. And Aleister Crowley.

@Ignant666 and @Dom
I enjoyed watching your little tete a tete. I typed up some replies multiple times but I was like 'nawwwww not really on topic' so I never posted 😀

@Shiva
"Where does Thelema fit in to today’s political scene?"

Can you be more specific please? Fit in how exactly? Not sure what you mean. Sorry for being dumb.

@ignant

The light is starting to dawn, isn’t it, david?- next thing you know, you’ll be reading Capital, Vol. I and figuring some stuff out...….

No Palomino. If you mean worker's state when you talk about Communism/anarchism then no, wtf? I celebrate Maggie's revolution not Lenin's revolution.

do a bit of reading, and the work needed to understand the reading, and you will probably be a full-on Communist within three weeks, given how you do tend to throw yourself into these things.

I grew out of that class-resentement as a teenager. I'm a compassionate conservative. Probably right of centre though. The market place and the price mechanism is the closest man-made thing to Nature's genius. May it thrive and prosper and everyone will benefit.

cs: Can you be more specific please? Fit in how exactly? Not sure what you mean. Sorry for being dumb.

I am unable to be more specific, because the title of the thread is "Thelemic Politics." I would guess that anything relating Thelema (Will) to Politics (*) would be on-topic.

If you wanted to promote, say, anti-Communism in China, that would not qualify ... unless you can prove it's your Will.

(*) Politics [noun]: the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

Here's my take on it: (1) "People need enough to eat, and places to live, and to be left alone to live their lives as they will. At the very least." - Ignant

(2) There is no "Thelemic" party, program, or canidate(s). So there's no need to vicariously beat any drums.

(3) "Thelema" relates to the individual. So each individual has to vote/not-vote, support/not-support, revolt/not-revolt, kill (fill)/not-kill (not-fill) as he or she so "wills" according to their inner wisdom and outer circumstances.

That should be adequate for putting your heart at ease and your mind at rest. Now it's time to STOP the mind and return to our escape from illusion. Then the angels will tell you who to vote/not-vote for, and what to revolt/not-revolt against.

What did Crowley have to say about communism/anarchism? Well considering that AC said that F.M. Nietzsche was "almost an avatar of Thoth" I'm sure he would've dismissed it as a product of slave-morality and therefore as the antithesis of Thelema.

Quote: The Book of Lies - Ch 80

BLACKTHORN

The price of existence is eternal warfare.
Speaking as an Irishman, I prefer to say: The price of eternal warfare is existence.
And melancholy as existence is, the price is well worth paying.

Is there is a Government? then I'm agin it! To Hell with the bloody English!

"O FRATER PERDURABO, how unworthy are these sentiments!"

"D'ye want a clip on the jaw?"

"I suggest that “Man (et woman) has the right to vote as he (she) Will – in places where voting is allowed. Traditional monarchies and dictator-states require hope and help from other spells."

In case you missed it, the question on the floor is …

Where does Thelema fit in to today’s political scene?

Thelema fit in the scheme of things in the role of the development of true self and will, which evolves the being past being subjected to falsehoods and pageantries of lies.. which will allow people true informed decision making especially of the governments of each and or all.

I was reading an interesting article in Uncensored magazine issue 56 page 22 by Caitlyn Johnson
The Illusory Truth Effect - How Millions Were Duped By Russiagate

here is an online link to the article not sure if it's fully the same as in mag. It was a real eye opener especially this paragraph

We have a tendency to select for cognitive ease, which is why confirmation bias is a thing; believing ideas which don’t cause cognitive strain or dissonance gives us more cognitive ease than doing otherwise. Our evolutionary ancestors adapted to seek out cognitive ease so that they could put their attention into making quick decisions essential for survival, rather than painstakingly mulling over whether everything we believe is as true as we think it is. This was great for not getting eaten by saber-toothed tigers in prehistoric times, but it’s not very helpful when navigating the twists and turns of a cognitively complex modern world. It’s also not helpful when you’re trying to cultivate truthful beliefs while surrounded by screens that are repeating the same bogus talking points over and over again.

As Shiva points out, it is quite is easy to find Crowley quotes supporting anarchist ideas (or even saying he is, among other things, an "instinctive anarchist"), or favors communism.

It is also, depressingly for those who seek political guidance from his work, equally easy to find places where he advocates aristocracy, denounces socialism/ordinary workers, or comes right out in favor of theocratic royalism (the rule by initiates Shiva, and some others. seems to think would be a good idea (i don't)).

Pasi's excellent book lays out AC's wild variant politics, provides a satisfying analysis of the whole thing, and is well worth reading

Since i am not some sort of fundamentalist "Crowley said it, i believe it, and that settles it" pseudo-Thelemite follower of Crowleyanity, i don't find my politics in his work, but rather would argue that my politics, which stem from my life and will, are at least consistent with Thelema, and perhaps better fulfill the preconditions for people to live by Will than would other arrangements.

david: The market place and the price mechanism is the closest man-made thing to Nature’s genius. May it thrive and prosper and everyone will benefit.

Don't you feel conflicted about being a member of a trade union, as a free market advocate? Every good Thatcherite/Reaganite knows unions distort the price mechanism, and interfere with the operations of the scared free market!

To be consistent with your "Maggie's farm" politics, you must resign from your union today, and bargain one on one with your employer about wages and working conditions. You are an autonomous individual, not a cringing collectivist!

The (imaginary) "free market" is your friend, your idol!

Ig: ... theocratic royalism (the rule by initiates Shiva, and some others. seems to think would be a good idea (i don’t)

I would not favor such an arrangement, unless one certain condition was met. I have quoted AC's Aristocratic Communism, but I have not endorsed it. The "one condition," as I have twice stated it, is that "A Master of the Temple must be where the bucks stops." Since a Master of the Temple dwells above the Abyss, where there is no form, that's a paradoxical fantasy. Any "lesser" initiates (Chesed and all points southbound) are still operating with ego, so they're no better than the average politician.

@shiva and ignant

As Shiva points out, it is quite is easy to find Crowley quotes supporting anarchist ideas (or even saying he is, among other things, an “instinctive anarchist”),

Please provide at least 3 because everyone knows including Regardie that AC was basically a typical Tory.

or favors communism.

Hhah. C'mon. AC was about as pro-communist as Herman Hesse.

It is also, depressingly for those who seek political guidance from his work, equally easy to find places where he advocates aristocracy, denounces socialism/ordinary workers, or comes right out in favor of theocratic royalism (the rule by initiates Shiva, and some others. seems to think would be a good idea (i don’t)).

I think Shiva is onto "the slaves shall serve" there.

Pasi’s excellent book lays out AC’s wild variant politics, provides a satisfying analysis of the whole thing, and is well worth reading

How do you think that what you think of as communism could be in alignment with Thelema?

Since i am not some sort of fundamentalist “Crowley said it, i believe it, and that settles it” pseudo-Thelemite follower of Crowleyanity, i don’t find my politics in his work, but rather would argue that my politics, which stem from my life and will, are at least consistent with Thelema, and perhaps better fulfill the preconditions for people to live by Will than would other arrangements.

Ok fine we get it but you seem reticent about actually pinpointing how you think that that would work other than referring people to study the tragic short-lived anarchist communities of the Spanish Civil War and in the Paris Commune.

Don’t you feel conflicted about being a member of a trade union, as a free market advocate?

<Chuckle> What decade are you living in? You think trade unions are here (post Maggie/Ronnie) to barter for higher pay? Hahah that's funny. In 1974 amidst the chaos and strife and Hell (something that you never knew up close in your middle-class upbringing and subsequent academic career) yes but that was before the revolution when the balance of sanity was attained to. No, unions are just an intermediary for relaying grievance up the chain of command. Y'see Maggie wanted to destroy class consciousness and all the obsolete resentement shit that goes with it be it damned for a dog. She achieved it. No worker wants to strike now. How's he going to pay off his mortgage and look after his kids? It would be irrational. Management and workforce see eye to eye moreso since the revolution. The master stroke, ironically, was the introduction of the democratic process within trade unions i.e. in the pre-Maggie UK, people (stirred up by neurotic hot-heads) sporadically went 'all out' on strike by a public show of hands. Imagine that primitive shit. It's now done by a private ballot box.... the process is therefore all slowed down and discernment kicks in and no one wants to strike anymore.

Furthermore we had what were known as 'flying pickets'. Professional career-strikers who were allowed to gather at picket lines which ended up looking like a football hooligan riot. Laws on picket lines restrictions did away with that.

Every good Thatcherite/Reaganite knows unions distort the price mechanism, and interfere with the operations of the scared free market!

See above for why that statement is obsolete. I think your middle class background just puts you out of touch with what working class realities used to be about pre Monetarist revolution. The revolution was Hell..major birth-pangs. Watch a documentary on the 1980's miners strike and the like.

By the way I may vote for Corbin because of 1) the disgraceful way his party has treated him over this BIG LIE about his anti-Semitism and 2) because I want to see the train-wreck that would ensue as he tries to reverse the revolution with his spaced out ultra-naive re-nationalization plans. Hopefully the ensuing train-wreck will help to serve to educate the masses of idiot hipsters who think that state-socialism is 'right on'.

Hah. You just think because folks are educated they came from a cushy life. And you take for granted all the things socialist, anarchist, communist, and other British working-folk less complacent then you won through bitter struggle, stuff we proud, "free" Americans don't fucking get (because our ruling class was more ruthless, much more violent, and less prone to shame, than yours: study labor history (as you so evidently never have)).

My "middle-class background" includes working for a living since i was 14. I grew up in what i call "genteel academic poverty", which means my parents, the university professor and the newspaper reporter, made, between them, way less money than a plumber's family would have. But they typed for a living, at home.

I was a cook, bicycle messenger, bouncer, and drug-dealer, and about a million shitty jobs, unloading trucks and cleaning toilets were some of the better ones, from 14-27.

Then a student with no money from 27-35, and then a very underpaid junior-level scientist/academic from 36-50 (making less than i had at any of my previous work, and working 60 hours in a slow week).

After that i began to make what a non-delusional person might call a "middle-class salary" (ie, a little more than i did as a cook or bike messenger (very high-paying working class jobs), though less that 1/20 of what i made selling weed). Yes, i eventually went into the family business. I worked 60-90 hours a week, and had to get grants to keep getting a salary, and keep my crew working and paid, which is a lot of stress. I got no salary if i did not get grants to fund it. Getting US Federal scientific research grants is hyper-competitive- you must be in the best 95+% of applicants to keep eating. If you are merely better than 9 out of 10 of th scientists applying, form all the best universities in the US, you get to go home, that won't even get you in the door.

Between selling weed in a very violent neighborhood in NYC, and then living in the octagon of Federal grant-whoring, i am pretty sure i have way more personal experience of the majesty of the free market than any UK trades union member, in your (even post-Maggie/that Labor twat who was your Clinton) vastly more socialist society.

You do understand that anything like the NHS (that provided all the healthcare you or your parents ever got) is considered beyond-the-fringe Stalinist shit in the US, where we are proud to die in the street when we run out of doctor money?

And that any UK union shop steward who came onto a US workplace, in any teade or work, would be carried away in a straitjacket if he started claiming the rights that UK workers take for granted (other than a minimum wage (that a person would starve on), which we, but not you, have)?

As a Brit, you don't have a semblance of a hint of a lead on a clue what "free-market capitalism" is like for workers; come to America and tell us about how you love the market, Mr. Pampered-Child-Of-British-Socialism!

You think trade unions are here (post Maggie/Ronnie) to barter for higher pay? Hahah that’s funny.

Huh. I guess British unions have different objectives than the US unions i was a member of during my working career.

Do your unions demand that the bosses to pay you less, and treat you worse, or, if they don't, you will take industrial action, or strike? Different than in America, i guess. We mostly want more money from the bosses, and better working conditions.

If you actually have to ask for quotes from AC advocating communism and/or anarchism, i have to again suspect you have read the Hag less than hundreds of times, but i will find the Pasi book and post a few soon. Also the ones in favor of aristocracy, fascism, etc.

AC's politics were very inconsistent, like his views on every other subject of which i'm aware.

When will you get around to acknowledging your how thoroughly i demolished your ignorant-ass mouthing off off about the Civil War and US history, BTW, Mr. I-Am-Changing-The-Subject-Back-To-Earlier-Topics-To-Try-To-Pretend-I-Did-Not-Just-Get-A-Severe-Ass-Whuppin'?

@dom :

train-wreck
Do you seriously consider the present state of the rail network in the UK to be better than what it was when it was nationalised? And if so, how come?

The master stroke, ironically, was the introduction of the democratic process within trade unions i.e. in the pre-Maggie UK, people (stirred up by neurotic hot-heads) sporadically went ‘all out’ on strike by a public show of hands. Imagine that primitive shit.
Is this the same variety as what you formerly expressed to be "sh1t"? If so, when was it (& why) tat your orthography changed over?

Will your collected historical analyses and bien pensants be made available to us shortly, perhaps with deleted scenes and added commentary? The delightful perspective of apparent general omniscience will surely only add to make it altogether a must-have item!

Incidentally, [Jeremy] Corbyn is spelt with a "y", not an "i" --- just thought u should know that...

@ignant666 :

When will you get around to acknowledging your how thoroughly i demolished your ignorant-ass mouthing off about the Civil War and US history, BTW, Mr. I-Am-Changing-The-Subject-Back-To-Earlier-Topics-To-Try-To-Pretend-I-Did-Not-Just-Get-A-Severe-Ass-Whuppin’?
This will not happen, as it will mean dom/david having to acknowledge that he has signally failed in his attempt to "Getcha" and has in fact been "Got" himself?

"You won't get me as I'm part of the union",
NJoy

And, as Michael rightly pointed out, as an American, UK politics is murky to me, a person who has only ever been there for a total of two months over four visits out of a long life, but Sweet Fancy Moses Up A Tree, are you people ever fucked with your new Trump-With-Bangs-And-(Marginally)-Smarter PM.

I suggest stocking up on canned goods, dried beans and rice, first-aid and infection treatment supplies, and small arms and ammunition- the usual survivalist shit; check the Mormons out, they are pros at this stuff.

Oh shit- you poor Brits can't buy guns. Really a lot of the other stuff then, and... maybe cricket bats?

BTW- Hoping your society holds out at least until late August when i visit...

Who's up for a pint in south London, probably Brixton (bc that is where my old NYC brother (a foreign British person like yourselves) that i'll be staying with lives), August 27 or 28? david gets TWO pints on me , if he shows. [fixed wrong dates]

I will bring as much US currency, chewing gum, nylons, and other such supplies associated with Americans, and as many Louisville Sluggers [premium ashwood bats used in US pro baseball], as i can carry.

d: Please provide at least 3 because everyone knows including Regardie that AC was basically a typical Tory.

No. One is enough. It only takes one bullet to kill a cow.

Ig: I suggest stocking up on canned goods, dried beans and rice, first-aid and infection treatment supplies, and small arms and ammunition- the usual survivalist shit; check the Mormons out, they are pros at this stuff.

Oh, Ignant, you make me weep for the lost glory of Solar Ranch.

canned goods... Mormons...lost glory of Solar Ranch

Just the obvious "oh shit! that doesn't look good" stuff a sensible person has on hand in case of a need to either hunker down, or as the kids so eloquently put it, "GTFO" (the eminently useful notarikon for "Get The Fuck Out", for any untyled cowan).

As you well know. I will admit my stockpile is not as heavy as during that period in the '80s when i was sure post-nuclear war survival mode might kick in any second, but i once could have passed a Mormon inspection.

I would, of course, have shot them if they tried to inspect, as i am no Mormon, but my point is, i had all that was on their lists.

@dom

How do you think that what you think of as communism could be in alignment with Thelema?

Every man and every woman is a star. Stars have their own orbits, their own "True Wills" if you like. Stars seldom hang out or move randomly as the spirit takes them. On the contrary, their orbits interweave, affecting each other in the process. No man is an island. In my view, people who think of True Will solely in terms of ruggèd individualism are mistaken.

The principle of communism is summed up in the phrase "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need". The concept is of a collective of individuals each of whom contributes their talents to the common good and and finds expression through the process and outcome of the collective endeavour. I don't know too much about Anarchy in its various forms, but I suspect that there is similar ground.

This is perfectly in alignment with the concept of True Will, which goes beyond the individual.

@ignant666 will you be staying on the blighted isle or traveling onward to the continent - perhaps even Berlin?

regarding strikes in England:

https://www.britishairways.com/en-de/information/incident/strike/latest-information

As I understand it, English property is owned by foreign oligarchs and the national infrastructure by opaque offshore shell corporations, while the "English" are just those allowed to pay rent and work themselves to death.

w13: As I understand it, English property is owned by foreign oligarchs and the national infrastructure by opaque offshore shell corporations

I hadn't heard that, but the USA owes $20t to the Federal Reserve System, which is our national (international?) piggy bank. Put it all together and it spels "Deep State."

Sadly no Berlin for me, William 13. Two days in London, the rest of the time i will be in Portugal.

Have only been to Germany once age 9 or so (1968). We were going to go to Berlin, but the US Defense Department would not allow my dad to drive there on the highway through the East due to the danger of staged accident and kidnapping by KGB/Stasi (he had been out of the military 15 years at this point but had to clear all foreign travel still), and flying was out of the budget. One of the places i most want to visit.

The US government does sort of, but does not really, owe money to the Federal Reserve, not the way you or i might owe someone money, since the Federal reserve is part of the US government. The Fed holds a couple trillion in Treasury bonds, sold to finance spending. The government pays interest on that those bonds, generating income for the Fed; all income earned by the Fed... accrues to the US government. Current Federal debt as a percentage of GDP is exactly where it has been for more than 30 years- high-ish as the result of expensive wars and endless tax cuts for rich people since St Ronald, but not remotely worrisome

US Federal "debt" is thus an accounting device/fiction (since the debt represented by US Treasury bonds is owed by the federal government to itself), and not remotely equivalent to debt in an individual's life, or debt owed by a private entity.

If the government "debt" to the Fed needs to be paid down, the Fed prints more money to pay itself with (not literally print currency anymore, but lowers interest rates and/or does quantitative easing which is a way of doing the same thing when interest rates are too low already, either way the result is the same, inflating the currency, and making debt both easier and cheaper to pay).

A government that prints its own money, and whose debts are denominated in that currency, can't go broke. If you have debts denominated in some other country's currency, that's when there is trouble, see eg Greece, and the Latin American victims of the IMF in the 79s-90s.

If you had a money-printing device, and also set the interest rate that you would pay on money you borrowed, being in debt would be kinda fun, and at the very least not a thing to worry about, right?

You would buy yourself all kinds of cool new shit. We do, and we have, for decades. The current debate in the US is about whether we should continue increasing spending on military hardware (but never on military salaries or vet benefits!), when we already have so much more of it than the rest of the world combined, or whether we should should maybe consider, for the first time in decades, spending some money on things that benefit working and poor Americans, and having roads and bridges that don't have holes in them, and all that other stuff folks in other rich countries take for granted, that we don't get, because rich folks need more money, and it is the American way for the government to give it to them.

Ig: ... since the Federal reserve is part of the US government.

"Federal Reserve Banks, located in cities throughout the nation, regulate and oversee privately owned commercial banks."

"Thus, the Federal Reserve System has both public and private components."

-Wikpedia/federal reserve

The gov component is the US Bureaucracy. The private component is the arm of the Deep State (One World Order, and all that).

@william13

who googles and managed to find a luke-warm not even worth mentioning tiny industrial dispute in the post Maggie revolution Britain.

regarding strikes in England:
https://www.britishairways.com/en-de/information/incident/strike/latest-information

It's over mate. It was bitter particularly in schools, mines, car factories and on the rail3way. There's no major strike action any more. The strike was Lenin's weapon. Lenin lost...big time.
No, generally speaking teh average modern British worker is happy with his management and vice-versa. There's more cooperation. WE went through our severe teething problems and worked them all out (through the medium of the trade union yes of course) a loooooong time ago. Strikes went out with flared trousers but if we were state-socialist we'd still be wearing flared trousers.... and queuing up for bread.

@ignant

Hah. You just think because folks are educated they came from a cushy life. And you take for granted all the things socialist, anarchist, communist, and other British working-folk less complacent then you won through bitter struggle, stuff we proud, “free” Americans don’t fucking get (because our ruling class was more ruthless, much more violent, and less prone to shame, than yours: study labor history (as you so evidently never have)).
My “middle-class background” includes working for a living since i was 14

Good post, even though there's danger it could turn the thread into the Python Yorkshiremen sketch;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

Did I change the subject to avoid any issue? I concede that there were elements within the Confederacy who, being racist white-supremacists, wanted to colonize and transform the Northern States into a similar race-hating slave-system.

What else? Yes the USA is a very harsh in a lot of areas due to the strong aversion to the institutions that the British inherited from their state socialism days. This is an interesting subject. As Brits our health insurance was always taken out of our wages and we never saw it leave. We do have to pay private car insurance. The American mentality is that we should not be taxed for health insurance and would therefore use that extra cash to pay companies privately for health insurance. I have heard that Americans have lost their houses when they got suddenly ill. Wow, now that is some Darwinian shit right there. I have heard that the poverty stricken Americans are forced to visit charity-hospitals. Whether people can die in the streets or not I don't know. I would like to see a non-biased documentary on this subject.

You still haven't told us how Anarchism would work to bring about that which is promulgated in AL. I'm not trying to getcha I am open to listening to your explanation. I think this is the second or third time I've asked this.

@jbarter

Do you seriously consider the present state of the rail network in the UK to be better than what it was when it was nationalised? And if so, how come?

Yeah I do. British Rail was the butt of every comedian's jokes plus it took twice as longer to get to London then and the concept of keeping the trains tidy didn't seen to occur. The trains were falling apart and you were lucky to get food that didn't actually taste like cardboard.

@mstayley

The principle of communism is summed up in the phrase “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need”. The concept is of a collective of individuals each of whom contributes their talents to the common good and and finds expression through the process and outcome of the collective endeavour. I don’t know too much about Anarchy in its various forms, but I suspect that there is similar ground.

What about the individual who wants to make 'big bucks' on the stock exchange so he can have two luxury yachts?

Politics is about economics and economics is about money. This is where AC talked a lot of shit (as per usual) in that Hag quote about the temporary Anarchist community. If you want to address Thelema and politics then you have to address what economics is or more to the point; survival. You can go and inhabit some forest and sharpen your stick and hunt wild pigs if ye wish but you will need to know how to start a fire from wood. Maybe you and a friend could specialise. You hunt whilst she/he collects the fire-wood. On a larger scale this is known as economics.

I consider the invention of money to be one of man's greatest pieces of ingenuity. It was just so darn inconvenient before money....rotting goods that could no longer be bartered with, your pigs wandering off on the way to the 'market place' where your trade-partner's cows were supposed to be and the inconvenience of storing then retrieving buried treasure aharr me hearties.

You almost have it right on the Civil War now.

There was no chance whatever of extending slavery back to the Northern states that had just abolished it (like NY), or never allowed it in the first place (like Vermont).

The Confederate goal was to expand slavery into the territories west of the Mississippi (most of what is now the continental US, in other words- there were 34 states in 1861), make them new slave states and ensure slave-holder control of the Federal government forever.

There were also plans to expand the US by annexing as new slave states the rest of Mexico (the part we had not already annexed in the recent war with them), and fellow-slave nation Brazil, following up on the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny" (the idea that the US has the right, and duty to control the whole western hemisphere).

As to "You still haven’t told us how Anarchism would work to bring about that which is promulgated in AL": No, and i won't be doing so. Anarchists avoid Utopianism- the describing or planning of what an anarchist society will look like/work like. We are too busy fighting back fascism, smashing capitalism, and opposing authority and hierarchy, and too respectful of those who will come after us, to do that. I think it is obvious why greater freedom facilitates more people being able to live according to Will.

Those looking for ideas of what an anarchist future might look like can find many examples of anarchist collective action, in communal and cooperative living structures, worker's co-ops and anarchist labor organizing (iww.org), the international Black Cross political prisoner support networks ( http://www.abcf.net/about-us/), and many more.

One more time, the Paris Commune, Spain before the Fascist revolution, Kurdistan right now, are three important historical examples of "anarchy in action", to steal a phrase from a very influential 1973 book by UK anarchist Colin Ward.

As to your imagined gotcha "What about the individual who wants to make ‘big bucks’ on the stock exchange so he can have two luxury yachts?"

Stock exchanges are legal fictions maintained by governmental regulation and laws, designed to allow rich folks to speculate on shares of companies, thus, it is said, promoting the efficient allocation of capital. "Getting rich" on the stock exchange consists of picking which enterprises will expropriate the most surplus from the value produced by the workers they exploit, or be most fortunate in securing instruments and materials of production at low costs.

In a socialist society, there wouldn't be any stock exchange to get rich on, or any surplus labor value extracted from the workers, to get rich with. So your individual might have to work like everybody else, instead of living large on the labor of others.

One more time, the Paris Commune, Spain before the Fascist revolution, Kurdistan right now, are three important historical examples of “anarchy in action”, to steal a phrase from a very influential 1973 book by UK anarchist Colin Ward.

It all sounds abstract then. You have a get-out clause not to explain yourself so how can I or anyone discuss it with you? In Kurdistan your anarchists are apparently selling oil and heroin to make money for their dream. How about that for smashing capitalism? Not. No, not at all. Please explain. As far as I'm concerned every Thelemite shouldn't fear money. Most people fear money, big money, it blows their mind. They fear it and fear those who can handle it. This is resentement and unfortunately it seems to fuel leftist movements. Studies show that a lot of people who become suddenly ultra-rich (lotteries or what have you) within two years actually have less than they had before they became rich. That is the problem.,

As promised, some "Crowley on politics" (quotes mined by Pasi in Aleister Crowley and the temptation of politics, and excepted from his book, which anyone posting here or reading this should read; it is superb. The best book on AC's work/thought i have ever read, bar none.]

Royalist "legitimism" [based on the Catholic "divine right of kings"]: "Scott, Burns, and my cousin Gregor had made me a romantic Jacobite. I regarded [the British royal family] as German usurpers... I was a bigoted legitimist." But "My reactionary conservatism came into conflict with my anti-Catholicism." [Hag, 121]

Romantic William Morris influenced socialist: "To call forced labor slavery is rude/'Terminological inexactitude'/This from the masters of the winds and waves/Whose cotton-mills are crammed with British slaves" ["The World's Tragedy", xxxvi]

Nietzschian/Stirnerite individualist anarchist: "The Book announces a new [well, ok, maybe, if we ignore Nietzsche and Stirner saying it first, Stirner in the year Nietzsche was born] dichotomy in human society; there is the master and there is the slave; the noble and the serf [don't those both sound kinda historically familiar and not so new at all?]; the 'lone wolf' and the herd. Nietzsche can be regarded as one of our prophets [oh he noticed]; to a much lesser extent, ["scientific racist"] de Gobinaeu" [Magick without tears, 303]

Enthusiastic fan of Italian Fascism and Mussolini: "For some time, i had interested myself in Fascismo which i regarded with entire sympathy... I was delighted with the common sense of its programme and was especially pleased by its attitude toward the Church." [Hag, 911]

Antifa Aleister: "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole of the Law. Franco is a common murderer and pirate: should swing in chains at Execution Dock. Mussolini, the secret assassin, possibly worse. Hitler may prove a 'prophet'; time will judge. Love Is The Law Love Under Will." [AC's contribution, in its entirety, to Authors Take Sides On the Spanish War (1937)]

Hitler fan: "I think that you have read Hitler speaks- if not, do so- his private conversation [actually, the "private conversation" is entirely made-up in this hoax book] abounds in what sound like actual quotations from The Book of the Law." [MWT, 304]

Nazi-hating jingoist: "Germans are as far below Jews, generally speaking as monkeys below men; but i have always been fond of monkeys and do not want to offend them by comparing any German with one. [...] There will be no second Versailles [Treaty], there will be Armageddon.The Hun must be wiped out. The Hun will be wiped out." [Letter to Martha Kuntzel, May 1939]

Would-be Prophet of the Soviets: "I also have ideas that i want to put before the Soviet [a "soviet" is an assembly of workers; here he means the "Supreme Soviet"]. ... I ... want to get the USSR to adopt [Thelema as] a state religion. [...] I regard the present regime in Russia as the greatest social experiment ever attempted ..." [Letter to Walter Duranty, November 1929; note that Lenin, himself no angel, died in 1924, and Stalin had been ruling very brutally for 5 years by 1929- he was kissing the ass of one of history's greatest monsters, and knew it]

Summing it all up: "the conflict between my socialistic, anarchistic brain, and my aristocrat's heart..." [diary ("Liber LXXIII") entry, June 1917]; "aristocratic communism" [phrase used in letter to Symonds, June 1946. Of course, Aleister the middle-class brewery heir was no more a member of the British (or any) aristocracy than i am, but he was a snob who wished he was.]

One more time, david: Anarchism is not a doctrine, or a blueprint for a post-revolutionary society.

It is a critique of existing society, capitalism, hierarchy, and domination, and a group of tendencies, methods, and ideas about how to struggle against those things, that has developed, and changed, over more than a century and a half.

Anarchists, perhaps not surprisingly, are very far from monolithic in politics, ideology, or strategy and tactics, and there are robust ongoing debates, and many contending tendencies/factions/ideas, within the movement.

I am sorry, david, that this means anarchism does not meet your standards of discussability. We anarchs will, i suppose, just have to live with this, and struggle on, without the wisdom you doubtless might provide, were we up to your standards.

Ok random inconsistent AC quotes are all very interesting to some but in terms of Thelema and politics I'm not so sure. I could equally quote from AC about women, some quotes very disparaging towards women and some exalting them but in terms of 'Thelema and women' this doesn't give us much.

I was trying to drive the thread towards definitions of money which is the crux of economics which is the crux of politics. Money is directly dealt with in AL.

Btw I probably can't make London, maybe I'll see you in New York sometime.

Yes, david, AC was very inconsistent in his views on politics- that was the point of my post, and one of the points of Pasi's book. Also, as you note, very inconsistent in his views on women, Thelema, and every other conceivable topic.

Thus, those seeking a "Thelemic politics", or a coherent Thelemic anything, will have to figure it out for themselves, from sources and experiences outside his work. It is almost as if this strategy was intentional, isn't it? Kind of like anarchists refusing to presume how those who come after us will live after the revolution succeeds.

Sorry we will miss you in London, and i got pints with your name on them whenever you get to NYC.

I realize that i am taking my life into my hands once again by entering into a place where British people will be drinking:

'Mass brawl' breaks out on P & O cruise ship Britannia

Staff told me they had never seen anything like it. [...] [T]he violence occurred after a black-tie evening and an afternoon of "patriotic" partying... things kicked off when another passenger appeared dressed as a clown. This upset one of their party because they'd specifically booked a cruise with no fancy dress.

I mean, who could blame them really? A person in a clown suit always leads to a mass brawl/riot, right?

My British savage native guide, who thinks most Thelemites are idiots, and Nazi sympathizers, based on having been friends with the Current 93/Coil bunch back when he was an avant garde actor, says he has learned to break up knife fights without getting hurt, in his new gig as an inner-city London high-school teacher. This seems useful for going near English people that have been drinking, if the BBC story is any guide.

Two pints thanks Ignant I'd get you two back.

If you're up north let me know,London's a bit of a mission for me. That goes for anyone else here.

In terms of USA I was thinking of walking into Master Shiva's karate dojo sometime. L.A. alright!

d: I was thinking of walking into Master Shiva’s karate dojo sometime.

Rio Communities (a suburb of Belen, New Mexico, which is a small, run-down town), every Tuesday morning at 10:00 AM, except Holy Daze.

Oh right nowhere near L.A.

Ok thanks Shiva.

d: nowhere near L.A.

May the Saints preserve us, no, nowhere near Lost Angeles (75o miles). As Don Juan told Carlos, "I won't go near Los Angeles; that place is filled with demons!"

However, I did a 26-year internship there. Dental school, Solar Lodge, PhD school, Medical school, years of teaching and school administration. What a load!

It's very political, There are even Thelemites who live or work there. Today.

RE Los Angeles,
I read they should rename it to Los Ratas due to all the rat infestation thanks to the homeless epidemic:

News story 1

News Story 2

Speaking of politics and rats, I guess LA really is a sanctuary city 😉 Come one, come all, to live on the streets with the rats while your average rent goes for over 2,200$ a month. yuck

Where were we? Oh yeah, "Smash capitalism, fight fascism" and the aftermath produces the closest thing to what all are called to do via AL. Naïve Romantic unreasonable bombastic juvenile nonsense? Well, we can't discuss it because it hasn't happened yet.

How humans would exist without money is beyond me.

You have to ask yourself what markets actually are and what are their uses and why do markets arise in the first place?

Why would someone want to produce goods (i.e. things like pens, syringes and bicycle pumps) if they don't get paid for doing so. What does the following mean? 'We are not for the poor and sad: the lords of the earth are our kinsfolk' ~ AL.

What does the following mean? ‘We are not for the poor and sad: the lords of the earth are our kinsfolk’ ~ AL

Clearly it means "If we are male UK trades union members, remember that '"I Got Mine Jack, Fuck Off You Lot" Shall Be The Whole Of The Law. No Man Or Woman Is Worth Two Shits Unless They Are British-Born, Have A Job, And Are In The Union'", right, david?

How humans would exist without money is beyond me.

Really now, dom? Have you never come across at all Aborigine culture, or the Native Americans who had no concept of land (one of the principal ongoing bases of money in the form of capital) as private property? You probably meant how "industrial first world, comfortably-off 'have' rather than have-not' humans would exist? Much like your goodself, I mean...

"Money don't get everything it's true - but what it don't get, I can't use"?
N Joy

@dom

“Smash capitalism, fight fascism”

I don't recall anyone on this thread advocating this. Doubtless you'll be able to jog my memory.

@jamiemarketplace

Really now, dom? Have you never come across at all Aborigine culture, or the Native Americans who had no concept of land (one of the principal ongoing bases of money in the form of capital) as private property? You probably meant how “industrial first world, comfortably-off ‘have’ rather than have-not’ humans would exist? Much like your goodself, I mean…

I see, so regression to the neolithic is where it's at?

“Smash capitalism, fight fascism”

Michael: I never said these exact words together but i have no problem with this formulation; it is a not-inaccurate summary of my politics.

so regression to the neolithic is where it’s at?

david: I don't think Jamie B's point was so much that we would better off regressing to the Neolithic (but see John Zerzan and his disciple the Unabomber for good arguments (that i don't agree with) why that might be so), so much as pointing out that, since your ignorance of human culture, history and variability is so vast, the fact that "How humans would exist without money is beyond" you tells us more about you, and your limited education (formal or otherwise), experience, and imagination, than about humans.

@dom :

I see, so regression to the neolithic is where it’s at?
As usual you are not only throwing baby out with the bathwater, but setting-to on the plumbing in the attendant bathroom with a sledgehammer. I made no mention of regression; I thought the implication was coming out from left-field progession. It requires a bit of active imagination with the consequent economic cost benefit analysis as to all of the possibilities which may be involved, not always with a materialistic £ or a $ sign attached: ideas of freely being of communal service, etc., not being greedy, and of taking one's turn. Civilised behaviour, that sort of thing - not so much neolithic. And so on and so forth.

N Joy

The lords of the earth appertain to a 'grade' in magical tradition.

There was a rock band in the 60s that used to play for free. They were called The Quicksilver Messenger Service. Ponder on that.

Money doesn't develop because the greedy evil overlords want to oppress everyone..it arise like I said earlier because someone wants to e.g. trade in his cows for some pigs and that has many complications and snags involved.

I get the impression that activists want to be leaders.. think about that.

There was a rock band in the 60s that used to play for free. They were called The Quicksilver Messenger Service. Ponder on that.

OK, got it. Now what do i do- turn it red? Rotate it? This is like tattva or tarot visualization, right?

https://youtu.be/DH9GH1q3hsM

Turn on, tune in, drop out, maaaan.

Seriously go somewhere where psychedelic libation is not VERBOTEN, and do that like at least 12 times, and come back a better man. Doesn't this union gig come with some paid vacations?

@dom :

There was a rock band in the 60s that used to play for free. They were called The Quicksilver Messenger Service. Ponder on that.

I not only can ponder, dom, but see and raise you on that! There was a "psychedelic" (and on their best nights, superb) band which used to play for free in Thatcher's yuppie capitalist 80s called Here & Now, and sometimes in their early days Floating Anarchy or Planet Gong (when playing along with Daevid Allen, the Australian lunatic for whom they were a backing band). At the end of every gig they used to pass round the hat, or rather bucket in this case, which usually got enthusiastically filled. I know this from personal experience as I went to experience them several (the ones I can remember, anyway) times and this went on for a fair while - more years than months. This was by no means a case of "one-off". They sold their first LP for the then price of a single 45rpm too - 49p.
I think Crass also used to sometimes play for free aa well, but I'm not on such knowledgeable solid ground there...

Now you Ponda!
N Joy

d: How humans would exist without money is beyond me.

That's because you're not old enough to remember gold and silver, coins or bullion or dust? After that, there's livestock, beads, car parts, the vegetable kingdom, and comic books. Before money, there were other things. It's called "barter."

I see, so regression to the neolithic is where it’s at?

Aha! Now you're getting the idea. If one is prepared to live, fight, and love at the stone level, anything better that comes along is a boon, sent by the Angels or ETs.

Additionally, if one wants to enhance or expand their mentat, then allowing said mentat to break down to primordial levels via libation in the wilderness will do a lot to get one educated" in survival capacities.

Crass certainly did that, as well as Hawkwind (despite having not merely Lemmy's drugs habits to fund but the very voluptuous and presumably well-fed 6' 2" Stacia (the famous nude dancer who sold them gas, and then hopped in the van and joined the band) to keep).

And the Rolling Stones in Hyde Park of course.

In America, the MC-5 played lots of free shows, and of course were the only band to actually show up, and play at, (among many fair-weather pseudo-revolutionaries who said they'd show, and didn't) at the 1968 Chicago Yippie! demonstrations at the Democratic convention that led to the notorious police riots.

Quicksilver, on the other hand, were never so known for doing free shows, not nearly as much as notorious commercial failures (and awful band) The Grateful Dead. who played for free all the time (and were the largest grossing live act in the world when Jerry died (how could they tell?)).

To this day, any actual (vs. fake-ass-punk-showbiz) punk band will let anyone into their shows for what they can afford, including zero. Doing this, or not, is among the main pragmatic "Punk or not really?" tests that lead to a band's rep among the international punk community.

libation in the wilderness

Music to mine ears.

https://youtu.be/5fH2FOn1V5g

And ALONE, just like Julie Andrews in an alpine meadow.

Ig: And ALONE, just like Julie Andrews in an alpine meadow.

That's a prerequisite. In Indiana (North American Indian cultures), it's called a Vision Quest. If you find yourself in a group of people in the desert who have been slipped some strange potion, you (anyone) can simply walk away. That's usually where the heavy-duty experiences occur. The Spirit of Solitude. Why did that title get changed to Confessions?

@Shiva :

The Spirit of Solitude. Why did that title get changed to Confessions?

Confessions is what it's commonly referred to --- by the common people, the hoi polloi that is --- but that was what it got "re-antichristened" as, as a sorta subtitle (I think: I don't have a copy of it immediately to hand to say for certain: but maybe dom, who has read it hundreds and hundreds of times, would probably know that by heart? Or if not by warm, empathetic, compassionate heart, then by cold, systematic, utilitarian rote instead...)

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens ('these are a few of my favorite [inexpensive] things'),*
N Joy

(* ... though I have never knowingly tried "schnitzel with noodles")