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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5320
09/01/2010 1:42 pm  

I refer readers to this exchange of posts between thiebes and Erwin: http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3936&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Two simple questions, then, from the owner and editor of LAShTAL.COM: Are the three sites - http://christianityisdead.wordpress.com/ http://www.speechinthesilence.com/ and http://ac2012.com/ - the work of the same people, as internal evidence would seem to suggest? Are any of the members of LAShTAL.COM who have promoted these sites also members of the Ararita San Diego Thelema Group? I refer in particular to thiebes, IAO131 and ozzzz666, or any other accounts run by these same individuals.

Replies on this thread or via Personal Message, please.

I ask because a subsequent allegation has been made to me (not by anyone named in this post) that News postings, Forum threads and Private Messages on LAShTAL.COM may have been used in an inappropriate manner or at least a manner lacking the transparency that members can reasonably expect.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 6:23 pm  

As I think should be more than avundantly clear by now, I am the author of AC2012.

As should be clear to anyone who listens to Speech in the Silence, I am a contributor to the podcast.

I am in no way connected to Christianity is Dead, but I do enjoy it.

Nobody ever asked me if I was a member of Sekhet-Maat (or it's Master) when I posted all the time promoting work that I was involved with or that I created myself. Not sure why all of a sudden disclaimers are so important.

Also since the allegations and subsequent investigation is being done in public, how about putting some public reference to a rule that has been broken? Where can I find an explanation of how anything I might have done is inappropriate?


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 6:24 pm  

Oh and btw, I am not a member of ARARITA. They asked me to help with their podcast though.


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 6:25 pm  

I meant to also ask who the accuser is? That would only be fair.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Posts: 5320
09/01/2010 7:15 pm  

Noted.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 155
09/01/2010 7:17 pm  

93 Paul,

I am not a member of the Arararita group (I'm in Texas), nor am I in any way connected to AC2012.

I am a contributer to the Speech in the Silence podcast, because I was asked to do so, but I am in no way associated with the podcast in any capacity other than the readings that I have, and will presumably continue to provide for that effort.

I am also in no way responsible for the Christianity is Dead blog, although I admit, I wish I had been. It is a wonderful effort in promulgation.

As I'm sure you know, I try to spread The Law as widely as I can. My personal efforts are completely transparent, and I will be happy to point you to any of them upon request.

Honestly though, I really don't see what would be deemed inappropriate about releasing info about these efforts, as they are, presumably, of interest to the members of Lashtal.com.

93 93/93,
Fr. Oz

*edit*

In the spirit of full disclosure, I neglected to include the use of my music in the Podcast... That is there too.


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 155
09/01/2010 7:42 pm  

93,

I would also like to add that I have NEVER sent any PM's about any of these efforts(or any for that matter), and that I have never been here on this site to push my own agenda. I don't remember ever posting so much as a single link to any of my MANY online promulgation efforts, though I have posted a link to a song or two.

I hope you see this, and that whatever "allegations" have been made will not affect my ability to put forth news items in the future, because I have at least one big project in the works.

93 93/93,
Oz


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 7:45 pm  

93 -- I too have never posted any PMs about any of my efforts. I'm still unsure if self-promotion without explicit disclaimer is against the rules on here or not. It seems like if it was, there would have to be a major moderation effort since it happens all the time. -- 93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 7:53 pm  
"ozzzz666" wrote:
As I'm sure you know, I try to spread The Law as widely as I can. My personal efforts are completely transparent

Just in case anyone missed it, there's also this creation of yours: http://aiwass.ning.com/

The front page includes, amongst other things, no less than four links relating to the "Speech in the Silence" podcast along with its own dedicated margin-box, a video of Mr. Thiebes "spreading the good word", a link to instructions from Mr. 131 for going into bookstores and hiding pamphlets promoting thelemicstudies.com inside random books, and, interestingly, a video of you announcing that your "agents" have begun a "mission" to "infiltrate...discussion groups".

Just some additional information for anyone wanting to interpret "in no way connected" and "completely transparent".


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 8:01 pm  

It is now a crime to like the work of others and post links? We all have to post disclaimers about what we enjoy now, just in case people wonder? Somehow liking something and posting a link to it makes us all "connected"?


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 155
09/01/2010 8:07 pm  

Yes, Erwin. All that is true. Is that a secret? I'm not quite sure I am seeing your point here...

There is a link to the podcast because it features a reading done by me, and because it's goal is to promulgate the Law....That's what the site is about!

And yes there is a video of thiebes on the front as well....once again, promulgating the Law, the purpose of the Site. If you have other content that you would like to have included, I would be more than happy to post it there as well.

The "agent" theme, which was initially a way to try to get people interested and engaged in promulgating the Law, was found by me to be ineffective, and is no longer operational. "The Agency" no longer exists. However, The Island is still there, and will continue to remain there. Is my website what brought this all about?

I encourage you to join and contribute there if you Will. If you have documents, videos, or anything that could help people get motivated about the work, let me know and we will get that up there too! There is no conspiracy... LOL


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 8:08 pm  

Again I would like to know of what exactly I am being accused, and who my accuser is.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 8:25 pm  
"thiebes" wrote:
Somehow liking something and posting a link to it makes us all "connected"?

No - joining the same groups, sharing the same objectives, collaborating on each others' projects, and pretending to provide objective recommendations of each others' anonymous projects is what makes you all "connected".

"ozzzz666" wrote:
I'm not quite sure I am seeing your point here...

No, I don't think either of you are. That's what makes it all the more astonishing.

"ozzzz666" wrote:
Is my website what brought this all about?

No, it was certain individuals' pretenses at providing objective recommendations and congratulations of their own and of each others' anonymous projects that "brought this all about", as the discussion in question itself makes perfectly clear.

"ozzzz666" wrote:
I encourage you to join and contribute there if you Will.

I think I'll pass if it's all the same to you.


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 8:29 pm  
"Erwin" wrote:
No - joining the same groups, sharing the same objectives, collaborating on each others' projects, and pretending to provide objective recommendations of each others' anonymous projects is what makes you all "connected".

I don't think I ever claimed my personal enjoyments to be objective. As for the rest - I don't see why any of that is a problem. Are we supposed to now write disclaimers explaining which lashtal users we like or have "connections" to?

Again what exactly is the rule any of us are accused of breaking?


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 155
09/01/2010 8:30 pm  
"Erwin" wrote:
"ozzzz666" wrote:
As I'm sure you know, I try to spread The Law as widely as I can. My personal efforts are completely transparent

Just in case anyone missed it, there's also this creation of yours: http://aiwass.ning.com/

The front page includes, amongst other things, no less than four links relating to the "Speech in the Silence" podcast along with its own dedicated margin-box, a video of Mr. Thiebes "spreading the good word", a link to instructions from Mr. 131 for going into bookstores and hiding pamphlets promoting thelemicstudies.com inside random books, and, interestingly, a video of you announcing that your "agents" have begun a "mission" to "infiltrate...discussion groups".

Just some additional information for anyone wanting to interpret "in no way connected" and "completely transparent".

Ok, Erwin. I created The Island, and I am free to post whatever I like there. Perhaps it's hard for you to undertsand why I find value in working together with people, but it is not some grand conspiracy, so you can just give it up.
I have these things on the site because they are in line with the mission of The Island. I respect the work of Brother Joseph and see no reason why I should refrain from showing people that there are thelemites who are interested in the work he is doing.

Additionally, there is ONE link to the podcast, and a box that contains an rss feed of it. Because it is also in line with the goals of the site.

There is indeed a video of me there as well, encouraging people to place Thelemic materials around. Not "Hide" them... The downloadable pamphlets and such on the site, contain info on how to find out more about thelema, including At least one site that is connected to thelemicstudies.com....it also reccommends Lashtal.com. If you would like to create a document, as I said before that contains pointers to the sites you think would be more appropriate, I will gladly post them as well. I didn't even MAKE all the documents. The Island is meant to be a collaborative effort, so any contributions that are made by you, thiebes, IAO131, or anyone else whatsoever are encouraged, and will be welcomed.

In reference to the now defunct "Agency", the plan was to organize a small group of Thelemites to undertake "missions" of different kinds and to post the results of these efforts for people to learn from. I have about 30 pages of Data from the first "Mission" which was to infiltrate Athiest disscussion forums and talk about Thelema in such a way as to garner interest. That was the only mission undertaken, and due to a lack of participation on the part of the individuals chosen for it, I discontinued that effort.

Is there anything else you would like to know?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 8:47 pm  
"thiebes" wrote:
Are we supposed to now write disclaimers explaining which lashtal users we like or have "connections" to?

No, you're supposed to make it clear, when you recommend your own projects, that that's what you're doing. When a bunch of chums come together on a discussion group to mutually recommend an apparently anonymous project, you're supposed to make it clear that one of more of either you or your chums are responsible for it.

"thiebes" wrote:
Again what exactly is the rule any of us are accused of breaking?

Yet again, I continue to find it astonishing that you think you need rules to keep you in line. Don't you have any personal standards of behaviour? There's no rule against blowing up the moon, either, but do you think nobody would mind if you did it? Basic openness and transparency is generally considered to be desirable in any kind of promotion or recommendation. The Federal Trade Commission now has rules against bloggers failing to disclose connections with companies whose products they recommend or favorably review. Sock-puppetry for the purposes of promoting oneself and one's friends has been decried and derided since the dawn of internet discussion groups.

The fact that you are apparently unaware of this basic facet of human interaction, regardless of whether anyone wrote down a rule against it, is absolutely incredible.


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 155
09/01/2010 8:57 pm  
"Erwin" wrote:
No - joining the same groups, sharing the same objectives, collaborating on each others' projects, and pretending to provide objective recommendations of each others' anonymous projects is what makes you all "connected".

And us being "connected" is bad why?

I have NO "anonymous projects". Just because you just found The Island does not mean I have been somehow hiding it. I have promoted it on my Youtube channel and many other places.

"Erwin" wrote:
No, I don't think either of you are. That's what makes it all the more astonishing.

Why is it "astonishing" that Thelemites would find value in working together toward a common goal? Or that I, enjoying the work of another Thelemite, would see fit to compliment them on their efforts publicly? Am I somehow not free to do that? Does it somehow imply that I am trying to decieve someone? To what end? I have nothing to gain. Do you think I am getting rich off of the recognition I have recieved for my hard work? The only thing I make money on is my musick (and barely any at all)....and I donate ALL OF IT.

"Erwin" wrote:
No, it was certain individuals' pretenses at providing objective recommendations and congratulations of their own and of each others' anonymous projects that "brought this all about", as the discussion in question itself makes perfectly clear.

This is just ridiculous. I want to know what the problem is with that. What exactly does it hurt to compliment others, or to reccommend their projects, whether there is some connection or not. You are just looking for a fight, because no-one is singing YOUR praises. I wonder why that is??? Perhaps because of childish accusations and outbursts like the one we are seeing here?

"Erwin" wrote:
I think I'll pass if it's all the same to you.

That is your choice, but if you ever learn to play well with others, The offer still stands.

Paul,

You know I don't engage in these little B.S. battles here, and anyone who is familliar with my various efforts knows that I always try to treat people with respect, until they show that they are not worthy of it. This guy is trying my patience. He is a trouble-maker. I have never been anything but up-front and honest, and I take offense at his accusations that there is some big conspiracy going on.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 9:01 pm  
"ozzzz666" wrote:
Is there anything else you would like to know?

You're missing the point. I don't give two hoots about your site. The reason I linked to it was to show that some protestations of being "in no way connected" being made in this thread were not as upfront as they might otherwise be believed to be.

"AC2012" is an anonymous project of Mr. Thiebes. "Christianity is Dead, Thelema Lives" is an anonymous project of Mr. 131. The AC2012 facebook page recommends Christianity is Dead. The Christianity is Dead facebook page recommends AC2012. Both you and Mr. Thiebes contributes to the Speech in the Silence podcast produced by a group of which Mr. 131 is a member. Mr. Thiebes and Mr. 131 are both members of your "The Island" group. You admit upfront that you were at least at one time engaged in the "infiltration" of discussion groups. You promote the Speech in the Silence podcast and Mr. 131's "Talk Thelema" videos on your "The Island" website. You appear on one of Mr. 131's "Talk Thelema" videos yourself. Mr. 131 is an active contributor to the forums on your "The Island" site.

I could go on and on, but the point of all this is to show that the idea the three of you and your projects are "in no way connected" is utterly absurd. Therefore, when you all turn up and start promoting and congratulating each others' anonymous projects in a discussion forum in an attempt to drum up some publicity by pretending that everyone's talking about them, and are then called out for doing that, turning around and innocently asking "What? What did we do wrong?" is not going to be an appropriate response.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 9:03 pm  
"ozzzz666" wrote:
"Erwin" wrote:
No, it was certain individuals' pretenses at providing objective recommendations and congratulations of their own and of each others' anonymous projects that "brought this all about", as the discussion in question itself makes perfectly clear.

This is just ridiculous. I want to know what the problem is with that.

I rest my case. Absolutely astonishing.


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ozzzz666
(@ozzzz666)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 155
09/01/2010 9:13 pm  
"Erwin" wrote:
"ozzzz666" wrote:
Is there anything else you would like to know?

You're missing the point. I don't give two hoots about your site. The reason I linked to it was to show that some protestations of being "in no way connected" being made in this thread were not as upfront as they might otherwise be believed to be.

"AC2012" is an anonymous project of Mr. Thiebes. "Christianity is Dead, Thelema Lives" is an anonymous project of Mr. 131. The AC2012 facebook page recommends Christianity is Dead. The Christianity is Dead facebook page recommends AC2012. Both you and Mr. Thiebes contributes to the Speech in the Silence podcast produced by a group of which Mr. 131 is a member. Mr. Thiebes and Mr. 131 are both members of your "The Island" group. You admit upfront that you were at least at one time engaged in the "infiltration" of discussion groups. You promote the Speech in the Silence podcast and Mr. 131's "Talk Thelema" videos on your "The Island" website. You appear on one of Mr. 131's "Talk Thelema" videos yourself. Mr. 131 is an active contributor to the forums on your "The Island" site.

I could go on and on, but the point of all this is to show that the idea the three of you and your projects are "in no way connected" is utterly absurd. Therefore, when you all turn up and start promoting and congratulating each others' anonymous projects in a discussion forum in an attempt to drum up some publicity by pretending that everyone's talking about them, and are then called out for doing that, turning around and innocently asking "What? What did we do wrong?" is not going to be an appropriate response.

As I stated above, I am not connected with these things in any way, other than providing readings for the SIS podcast, and the fact that they use my musick. The fact that I promote them on The Island, or have publicly said that I enjoy them does not make me any more or less connected to them.

LISTEN HERE.... YOU are not the boss of anything... You do not get to decide what is or is not an "appropriate response". YOU do not make the rules here on this site. I do not have to answer to you. I do not have to justify my actions to you. You are a NOBODY to me, who I have never met or talked to, and I could care less about what you think about my supposed "connection" to anything. I will continue to endorse, compliment, and reccommend ANY projects that I SEE FIT, without regard for your thoughts or feelings about it.... and if you don't like it, you can go cry into your pillow.


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 9:16 pm  

AC2012 is not an "anonymous" project. It is a project of mine and it has a name. That my name does not appear on the page is not because I am hiding. It's called branding and marketing. I was trying to de-personalize the project because it's not there to promote me, it's there to promote AC. For some reason this bothers you and you would rather I put my name all over the site? How on earth is it any of your business to lecture me on my own creations and how to market them?

I have nowhere pretended that everyone's talking about AC2012. There is no need. Anyone can see that AC2012 has nearly 1000 fans on its Facebook page and that there are plenty of people discussing it there including one guy who sent the 25 blasphemous quotes by Aleister Crowley to Ireland's Minister for Justice.

Moreover, the three of us are different people who happen to enjoy each others' works. Is there something wrong with earnestly expressing our appreciation here? If so I would like to know exactly what.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 10:54 pm  

This is silly. I and many others are familiar with each of these projects. They are very well-known promulgation efforts. At no point was it ever unclear to me who was in charge of any of them. Further, it makes sense to me that active promulgators would be involved in multiple projects.

These projects cost money to maintain. The people behind them pay hosting and domain fees, give up extraordinary amounts of time, and overall work very hard to ensure their success. They are not making money, and if anyone's identity isn't immediately apparent -- for branding reasons for example -- there is no fame in it either. So what POSSIBLE motive could there be for shilling, which seems to be what you accuse them of.

This whole accusation is bogus. Oh and for "transparency" reasons: my only contributions to these projects are feedback expressing my opinions on what is good and what isn't, and expressing my appreciation for the efforts involved. I have my own promulgation projects, and will continue to appreciate these ones (and link to them too!) in spite of whether or not they reciprocate. Opinions are never objective -- they are not physical laws or objects. My opinions on these projects are not influenced by preconceptions of the individuals undertaking them. I suspect the same applies to the individuals accused above. "Success is thy proof" - and the success of a promulgation effort is really what counts.

Sorry to butt in.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5320
09/01/2010 11:14 pm  
"nanamin" wrote:
This is silly.

Wise words! It certainly is. Very.

Your post is absolutely right, of course, in so far as it relates to the sites themselves. It's not the function of LAShTAL.COM to have a view on their value - although I reserve the right to express such a view in future! However, the suggestion has been made, from several sources, that LAShTAL.COM was being exploited by the tried and tested technique of having members of this site praise and promote other sites without declaring their own interest - and that "interest" certainly needn't be financial. And that is something that LAShTAL.COM should have a view on.

I'm tempted to lock this thread and let us all get back to Thelema and Crowley. I have sufficient information now to make a judgement on the action that needs to be taken.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 11:14 pm  

Usually a lurker more than anything here...but reading this thread...seriously? Is this a joke?


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 165
09/01/2010 11:24 pm  

I have never been asked previously to declare my interest when promoting my projects for the last several years. The Sekhet-Maat website didn't have my name anywhere on it, nor did Lion & Serpent when I was editor. The only project I have ever promoted here that had my civil name on it was Agape. You never suggested to me that I should make my role in any of these projects explicit in my posts about them.

I see a lot of promotions of other websites all over this site which do not make explicit the author's interest in promoting them. What is wrong with this? If the site being promoted is of interest to members, is relevant and on topic, what is the problem?


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Posts: 5320
09/01/2010 11:56 pm  

Context and intent.

Locked.

Owner and Editor
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