Notifications
Clear all

Azoetia - To be or not to be?


 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Hi, I have been pondering the above question for too long. I admit, the pondering has stemmed from purely material concerns but alas, sometimes we all have to deal with the good ole problem of money! I for my sins (along with many others I suspect), have downloaded the above seminal and in my opinion (work of true genius - from far greater powers) and have been truely entranced. The next problem, how to possess the work. Xoanon don't publish anymore and all the copies on the second hand book market command ridiculous prices. Then just when I was giving up, a first edtion for £350 (paperback). Even as I type it and even to a bibliophile like myself, this seems madness to spend on a book but for this title it's cheap. But what do we all think? too cheap and would you risk it? Its from a private seller and wheres my protection, wheres my guarantees? and last but not least. How can a family man, with a dog a wife, a child and lots of bills, spend such money. I believe the magick will speak but let me hear you shrill!


Quote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

Yes, the Azoetia is a very pricy book, and you can only have it from secondhand, I have no experience with 'private sellers', I assume that most are correct, if they sell it through mediums like e-Bay, danger is less, I think. I also agree many items about which is much speach here are very expensive.


ReplyQuote
spike418
(@spike418)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 216
 

Hmmmm, I remember seeing a cheap paperback copy of one of Chumbleys works. Can't remember which one it was but had been listed several times on a different auction site to ebay. The seller was extremely evasive about certain matters relating to the copy which should have been obvious to the owner. In the end and I did not bid and neither did anyone else. I was suspicious that it was a photocopy and don't regret not bidding.


ReplyQuote
Tiger
(@tiger)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1773
 

Perhaps at this time the book does not care to devour you.
Maybe when your energy changes you can take a chance and see what spits you out.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

i had the first edition with additional/personal material from andrew (what a nice guy! who answered with a personal letter!) and the later sothis edition,sold them both for relatively cheap and am still alive.
with the deepest respect of andrew chumbley and beautiful art,but the azoetia is artmagic,an eyecatcher -maybe the most beautiful way to fill the pockets with the production of grimoires...but the best way to work with -sabbathical sorcery- (ehem) is to dream it with your own nervous system and up.ZOS did a good work to strip all the infernal stuff from the middle ages off and i always found chumbleys writings to kick zos kia back into the pit.


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4121
 
"CRONOZAYIN" wrote:
i always found chumbleys writings to kick zos kia back into the pit.

What pit might that be?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"CRONOZAYIN" wrote:
i always found chumbleys writings to kick zos kia back into the pit.

What pit might that be?

with much luck a hairy one.... 🙄


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

There's a couple of copies of the book in Treadwell's (London) at the moment - both the first edition and the re-issue. Can't remember what the prices were - you could call them. They are fine people to deal with.
o


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

I highly recommend this volume.


ReplyQuote
James
(@james)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 251
 
"oneiros" wrote:
There's a couple of copies of the book in Treadwell's (London) at the moment - both the first edition and the re-issue. Can't remember what the prices were - you could call them. They are fine people to deal with.
o

1st ed. paperback £ 900
re-issue £ 850


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

(1st ed. paperback £ 900
re-issue £ 850)i

I do see cheaper ones occasionally. I would write to either Midian or Caduceus books and see if they have anything.


ReplyQuote
SatansAdvocaat
(@satansadvocaat)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 351
 

I used to own a copy of the AZOETIA, the Xoanon paperback original. Nice book. I met Andrew Chumbley at Staley Mansions in 1994 e.v. Shortly after, I acquired a copy of his book from him and he was kind enough to sign it with a dedication. In those days the Typhonian O.T.O. and Cultus Sabbati were involved in joint-magickal workings, but plus sa change. or words to that effect. (I don't think I'm giving away any guarded secrets here; see past issues of STARFIRE).

I sold the book to an old friend - with ample declarations that it was not a perfect copy - back in 2006 e.v. (?), and for a reasonable price - not the kind of 'funny money' prices that are being quoted here and now. Alas, in the matter of books my friend was a perfectionist and I'm fairly sure that he sold it on.

It would be interesting to know where it is now. PB edition; PVC covered with two missing pages, supplied by Andrew Chumbley and inserted in the book, with my indelible signature inside the front cover (I think) and having a slight nicotine taint about its ineffable pages....?

Whimsically yours - S.A.


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

I do seem to recall seeing an imperfect copy - for sale - with a number of inserted pages, which and been signed. I think it may have been on ebay.


ReplyQuote
the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 1842
 

Hi S.A.,

These two copies - which might fit your description regarding the TOTO connection and the "grubbiness" - have been offered by Ben Fernee in January 2006. There are still more in his wonderful catalogues, so if you remember which number your copy had, it would be easier to locate it probably.

Love=Law
Lutz

Andrew Chumbley, Azoetia, A Grimoire of the Sabbatic Craft, Xoanon 1992 1st Ed 1st No.272 of No. Ltd. Ed of 300 Heady mix of A.O.Spare & Traditional Witchcraft by very respected author. Signed and sigilised by author using an extended version of his magical name. Ths sigil is unusual and expresses a particular stage in the authors magical journey when he was contributing to Starfire, the journal of the Typhonian OTO. The shape of the sigil appears to be an artifact of this association VG Order No. 42002 £375

Another copy, No. 127 Inscribed by author „To Simon with a Thousand blessings“ and signed with his full name and sigils. Loosely inserted is 1pp prepublication flier dor the book. The book has been well read with creases down the spine. At one point the binding has cracked so the book tends to fall open at that point, however the pages are fimrly in place. There is some grubbiness to the edges of the pages, slight creasing to cover and some wear to the corners. Good Order No. 42002 £250


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Alas, the timing just wasn't right for the private sale but I'm also mindful of the fact that many of the Azoetia's for sale seem to command 'funny money'. I was just wondering whether anyone out there has a copy that I may be able to afford? If you do, please let me know.


ReplyQuote
SatansAdvocaat
(@satansadvocaat)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 351
 

Thanks for the information, Lutz.
After a search in the personal archives I can say that my copy of the AZOETIA was No. 262, and that I actually acquired it in 1993 e.v. prior to my meeting Andrew Chumbley. The book was certainly in a lot better condition than No. 127, the last time I saw it !
I was slightly surprised to rediscover the number of lengthy letters that I had exchanged with Andrew, during the period 1993-1995 e.v. I may no longer have his book, but I guess that in its modest way the correspondence is priceless.

All the best with your quest, Akasha.

Love is the law, love under will.

Regards - S.A.


ReplyQuote
Anonymous
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
Joined: 1 second ago
Posts: 0
 

93

I have a copy of Azoetia for sale.
If anyone wants to make an offer for the book, just message me.
It's the Sethos edition (hardback) in mint condition, number 320 of 484.

93 93/93


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

93s

You might try writing to the publisher, www.xoanon.com. When I say write, they request all enquiries be submitted in the form of an actual letter, not email. I had some success with this method, but you will probably need to be able to display a solid intention and reasonable knowledge of the work.

93 93/93
Albert


ReplyQuote
James
(@james)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 251
 
"ahast42696" wrote:
93s

When I say write, they request all enquiries be submitted in the form of an actual letter, not email.

93 93/93
Albert

😯


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"James" wrote:
"ahast42696" wrote:
93s

When I say write, they request all enquiries be submitted in the form of an actual letter, not email.

93 93/93
Albert

😯

Isn't that taking transgressive and invertive practice just a little - too far?

Bloody heathens...

o


ReplyQuote
michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1264
 

Isn't that taking transgressive and invertive practice just a little - too far?

Bloody heathens...

Well, it is a traditional craft


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I've written to both Xanoan and Three Hands press and have been put on their private subscriber's list. I would suggest anyone who wishes to obtain any future volumes by Chumbley (what a prolific writer to have so many things left to publish this long after his Greater Feast.) and other members of the Cultus.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Get a copy if you can.

Just be paitent and do a little leg work.

I got mine a month ago. Like you I have a wife and kid, but I got a windfall and decided to go for it.

Prices on ebay, amazon and google shopping were crazy - 1600$ to 2000$.

In the end I found a really nice copy of the 2nd edition at Alchemy Arts in chicago. They wanted 800$ for it but we did a deal for 700$ cash. Not bad - and its in very good condition also so FIGJAM me.

I had a little left over ion my budget so I also scored a copy of Ars Philtron and Qutub.

I also recommend geting your name on Xoanon and 3 hands mailing lists. I already reserved a deluxe copy of Opuscula Magica v1.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

i have a copy looking to sell for 450 it is what i payed for the copy, that's what ill let it go for.

przm28@gmail.com for pictures and info.

cheers


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Aside from "investment" and the fact that people are willing to shell out that kind of money for his books, I see no other reason to pay that much for them.

I have them and the content is frankly not worth that much. Interesting, yes, but not that interesting.

I don't see the content driving the market value of the work so much as the desperate need for some types to feel like they are sitting on rare and valuable occult books.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"Poelzig" wrote:
I have them and the content is frankly not worth that much. Interesting, yes, but not that interesting.

I find myself in agreement with that assessment, but people purchase books for all kinds of reasons. I am not a bibliophile and my secret dream is to burn my library someday.

What kind of books, Poelzig, would you find valuable for their content?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

If you just wanted to read the thing, I believe there's an active torrent about...


ReplyQuote
Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 537
 

. . If any of you cats are intent on burning your libraries; please think of this MF first. I will take all of the material off of your hands & burn it myself. I will pay for the shipping, & send you a 'Thank You' note. (with photos of me burning something that looks like a pile of books)


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

"People purchase books for all kinds of reasons", I personaly do not care for which purchases people buy books, but might be that some people only buy books to know what the content might be! I don't know what the content of the Azoetia is but many people seem to consider that it might be of interest to have this book, for a manyfold reasons.


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 856
 
"Poelzig" wrote:
Aside from "investment" and the fact that people are willing to shell out that kind of money for his books, I see no other reason to pay that much for them.

I don't see the content driving the market value of the work so much as the desperate need for some types to feel like they are sitting on rare and valuable occult books.

Well said, Poelzig. Occult Book Collectors can be such insufferable snobs. And clueless dealers who stick high prices on works they know nothing about are even worse. They both artificially inflate our market prices. That's why I give as many of my books away as I do-- to encourage others to start their own library/collection, and give them a cornerstone on which to build it.

The kind of relationship one has with one's books is what is important-- it's like having a well. Some people have a fake well in their yard that's just a folly, merely for looks. Some people have a real well, but it's still just for show, throwing money into, and making wishes. And some people have a well that they draw water from, drink from, that refreshes them and invigorates them.

Me, I'm not a "frugal" man, but I could buy a *lot* of books for $800-1600. I mean a butt-load; there are still bargains out there. For that kind of money I could get 1st Weiser Hardback Limited Editions of all the Achad books, a hardback reprint of "777", FRA/Clymer hardback reprints of all of P.B. Randolph's works (save "Anseiratic Mysteries"), Llewellyn 1st Eds. of Regardie's "Golden Dawn" and "Gems", and a near new Magick/Book Four/Liber ABA... all those in Very Good condition or better, for the price of that *one* book. That would be the start of a very nice Thelemic/Magickal Library, and I wager I'd spend substantially less than $1600 to assemble it. (Now I already happen to *have* all those books, but that's not the point.) Now, I've read "Azoetia"; it's a remarkable book. But would that single volume give me the same amount of enrichment as all those other books I could get for the same sizable stack of hard-earned shekels? Not to me, personally. Your mileage may vary.


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

I think one should only buy books if you (think) should realy learn something from it, and not for snobbery reasons, if you want to be a snob, be a snob with something else, I prefer to not buy a book when I think it's to difficult for me (for the moment) for example, if the content does not interest me, and then certainly when it's only a limited edition (then I think I grant it someone else). With relation to give books away I think I will do that later in my life, when I hope to have studied most of the books in which I have an interest in, and than only to a person from whom I think (s)he is realy worthy to. Must say that I cannot think of collectors of anything they collect in which they have not an interest in, and also that counts for dealers who ask high prices for things of which they know not even enough of the content of. Ofcourse there's no doubt such people exist, I find them quiet stupid, ofcours they inflate artificially our market prices, I even almost forgot to mention!


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Ask yourself this: What would mean more to the Author AND the Owner of a book?

1. An inexpensive but complete copy of the book, heavily used, underlined, annotated, dog-eared, packed with notes, bookmarks, etc. of the owner, because he READS and USES it.

Or:

2. A rare, expensive first (or limited) edition that is treated as a sacred object and rarely removed from it's resting place, much less actually read, for fear of depreciating the value by wear.

I say this as someone who once had a fairly huge collection of rare occult books, but for the most part because at the time that is the only way much of the information/material was available.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 
"tai" wrote:
What kind of books, Poelzig, would you find valuable for their content?

That list would be longer than I have the patience to type right now, but let me put it this way; if arranged chronologically, occult/esoteric/magic books post-Crowley dwindle to almost nil.

I don't share the enthusiasm for contemporaries that I see expressed here and elsewhere. Not because they are contemporaries, but because they are comparatively devoid of substance.

I spend more time with historically significant primary texts, and my own work, than I do with just about any occult/magic writer after, say, 1950 or so.


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

Must admit that to my experience, most of the information that has satisfied me I found in books.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I find very much of "value" in Chumbley's books. He really knew his stuff....esp. regarding A.O.S. He definitely knew a lot about and integrated Thelemic/(Typhonian) Current with the Sabbatic Current, with the Workings of the Ku-Sebittu Lodge. Actually, I'll say re-combined the Modern Expressions of the Currents, which are in essence One Quintessential Magical Current, as A.O.S. merged the two with Grant in the days of The Zos-Kia Cultus. I've learned much from reading Chumbley's Works myself. I was actually into the Sabbatic Current before I discovered Thelema, and the Sabbatic Current I was into was mostly influenced by Old Gerald and Spare (who eventually led me to Thelema, of course. With a little help from Danny Carey's website, as well. Now, THAT's an amazing book collection!). I'm sure that I'll continue to learn from Chumbley's Works as the Opscula Magica volumes are released.

I really dig Azoetia, but my all time favourite is Qutub (a mint "protected" First Ed. of the Limited (not Deluxe) Hardback will be winging its way to my house shortly, for 200 British Pounds....which is not too bad. The condition of the First Ed. book is why I'm willing to part with so much. Qutub is just such a transformative Work, even with just a surface reading, not to mention the Qabalistic Cyphers that are there which hide an even deeper level to this wonderful Grimoire! I have yet to read "The Grimoire of the Golden Toad", because....well, everytime a copy comes up for sale it is very quickly snached up before I can get a chance at it. Does anyone here have this particular Grimoire, if so would you mind PMing me to discuss it with me as I would like to know a bit about its contents, as seller's descriptions and blurbs are all too vague.

Walterfive,
I too like to give away books to help others start with collecting and actually practicing the magick in the books. For example, upon purchasing J.S.K.'s "The True Grimoire" I quickly gave my Mather's/Crowley "Goetia" away to a pegan friend. I found the "True Grimoire"'s approach to dealing with the spirits infinitely superior to that of the "Goetia", far more conducive to building a good "rapport" with the Spirits with the Pact process rather than the Goetic threats and sigil torture. And as J.S.K. poitns out the intermediary Spirit can be equated with ones H.G.A. and (once one has had the K&C) subsitute Scirlin with thine own Angel's Name and Sign, I've found works just as well if not better. Therefore, applicable with Thelemic practices as J.S.K. has shown in "The British Journal of Thelema".


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

You have lot's of interesting things to say, N.O.X, I to think the books of Andrew Chumbley are of the highest interest.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

93/23

alysa,

Thank you. Yes, Chumbley was a Genius, imho! I too think I have lots of interesting stuff to say (or mine Angel does, my True Self, for He is in a certain form separate and objective and yet also we are Pure Unity). So I Know (from my own Gnosis) that both of A.C.'s opinions on the matter were correct. I plan on publishing some things in the near future, which would be far more appropriate a format, than Lashtal.com as they are truly Occult matters. Magick is My Life! For example, I may offer up my Thesis for 6=5 for public scutiny and as proof of my attainment. Then there's a Novel, a "received text", and Grimoire that are on the verge of explosion for manifestation. I was thinking of adapting my short story that some of you here have read into a screenplay to be made into a short film. So many things to write, so many books to read, so much magick to do! I need more hours in a day! (Or Work "Outside the Circles of Time"! 😀 Which I realize is an illusory concept, as are all concepts...but the Sun still rises and sets!)We'll just have to wait and see a little while longer to see what happens, I guess. Thanks again, alysa, for what I take as a great compliment, it made meh day! Sometimes, I post on here and feel as though I might as well be talking to myself, I'm glad someone finds what I say interesting...
😈 😉

In the Night of Pan,

93 93/93


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

Hi, N.O.X I think we are both interested in the same kind of subjects, I certainly am also interested in Chumbley and things Typhonian, later in my life I will read Chumbley, at least that's my intention to do, before I new of Chumbley someone putted my interest to Austin Osman Spare, and thanks to my interest in Spare my interest in Chumbley and the Cultus Sabbatai, came also into being, but I must say you that I'm only in a beginner's state and that for that reason I can't all the time cope with you guys, I don't really mind that, I grant you your lecture and your Work, best wishes, Alysa


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

Hi, Poelzig, and others, I have many occult books, and must say I like them to remain in a good condition, also I like to study them, I most certainly think that an author wants that his books should really be read and/or studied, and I like to comply with what most authors, I think,want, but I do not like to scribe in them or hurt them in any other way, seems to me; a book is a sacret object, also many occult books cost some kind of money, and oh dear, are also in a limited edition. Certainly I have enough books that costed in the past enough of money that I most certainly wish to keep them in good condition, but also I have enough books that are very,very, cheap and must say I treat those the same as the others, also the reason that I want to remain them in as good a condition as possible is that in the future they shall find other owners and I hope that they shall enjoy well kept copies, by me, too!


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I'll get two copies of books I feel uptight about using too hard. one to keep clean and the other to use as a working copy. I keep my eyes peeled for damaged second-hand copies of books I'm serious about studying - so long as they don't have anyone else's underlining or writing in them - if they have damaged covers, are a little dirty, etc. - NOT in pristine condition - I don't feel bad about using them hard, underlining, writing in the margins, etc.

Writing in the book is invaluable to me, especially in really going back analytically and extracting the main points.

But NOTHING is worse than underlining and annotations in a book from someone who does not know how to identify key passages or makes trivial or juvenile annotations in a book.

I have on rare occasions found used copies of books that belonged to a previous owner with adept critical faculties who not only was expert in underlining and outlining the absolute key passages in books, but whose annotations and cross-references, and references to outside sources written in the margins were invaluable - Its extremely rare but there are people out there who I would actually pay to annotate and underline in a book before hand so I could benefit from their knowledge!


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

Hi, Poelzig, I certainly agree with your third paragraph of your last post here, certainly when it is way too often done in one book, and yes I think I also found in the past books that were adeptly underlined and outlined the absolute key passages and annotated and cross-referenced, and referenced to outside sources in the margins, who seemed to me invaluable, but than I had the bad luck that I could not really read good what was wrote by those expert-Adepts, and so it kept me anyway annoying.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

I used "adept" in the general sense of "capable" rather than the esoteric sense of "initiate", although some of the comments would still apply.


ReplyQuote
alysa
(@alysa)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 655
 

I also used 'adept' in the same way of 'capable,' though ofcourse the term can mean both, the capital was used in an ironic way.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
Topic starter  

Hi Everyone,

Just noticed that my Azoetia thread is still rearing its head - I firmly believe this is because of the energy the book emanates. Alas, I'm still without it to learn from. Maybe someone could donate me a copy (I wish!!). Anyway, I'm still hoping the rearing will become nearing. Thankyou Lashtal to this Thelemic forum for the chance to grow.


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2838
 

i used to get two copies of books i liked a lot so i could keep one pristine but i realised whats the point of spending the extra money on something you already have, when you could just treat the copy you already have better and keep it just as nice as a new one?

this way i have more money for different things. plus most books do not value like their owners expect so the extra pristine copy is not worth that much more than the read but near fine one.


ReplyQuote
Anonymous
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
Joined: 1 second ago
Posts: 0
 

this book was unknown of me until now. It seems very interesting.


ReplyQuote
Share: