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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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08/11/2011 7:05 am  

trying to discover the numeric value of words,running into a few obstacles.please excuse the basic nature of my ?s this is all new to me(and all greek to me).i see hebrew nor greek has a letter for c-is it best to use ch or k?ive also noticed at times beth used when the english lists v.while hebrew has no letter for e greek has two!and teth and tau,again do they both =t?i hope i dont get locked for these elementary ?s i dont mean to bother people and i dont post anything unless its really on my mind.lastly,i notice binah=binh-no aleph.tipareth however has aleph-does it just depend on how the word is pronounced??which is a problem because different sects of jews place different emphasis on the same letters depending on tradition.any helpful tips at all are very welcome
sincerely,
Blsht bob


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
08/11/2011 9:59 am  

Whether to use either Cheth or Kaph, or either Teth or Tau, involves I think the placement of the syllable within the word. It's a matter of finding out these conventions; a Google search would be a good start.

The use of gematria by Western qabalists such as Crowley or Grant tends not to take too much notice of these conventions, in any case.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/11/2011 10:13 am  

Nothing is written in stone eternally. Just the fact that there are different sects of Jews shows, that there are different ways to work with ‏.יהוה‎

Of course you can try to reenact watched porn 'rich to the last detail'. But you also can just take 'what you like' and try to stage your own.


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Azidonis
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08/11/2011 5:37 pm  

Honestly, if you plan on getting very in-depth with either the Hebrew or the Greek, it might help to go on a knowledge spree about the respective languages. That is, find a book or two on ancient Hebrew (real ancient Hebrew, not Golden Dawn Hebrew) and learn why two words are spelled similar except for the ending. Learn how to recognize the masculine/feminine forms, etc.

Without knowledge of the actual language, you end up just regurgitating the errors of other scholars at times, and (horrors) even working those errors into your own rituals.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
08/11/2011 10:28 pm  

As the numerical values are applied to hebrew based on the understanding that each hebrew word has a number, then it would be so that only the traditionaland ancient hebrew works for this system?
I use ahebrew dictionary, not yiddish or jewish but hebrew words that appear in the torah, over time each margin is filled with its number and becomes an old testament 777.
Im sure my one is published by llewellyn.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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09/11/2011 3:59 am  
"Samjaza" wrote:
As the numerical values are applied to hebrew based on the understanding that each hebrew word has a number, then it would be so that only the traditionaland ancient hebrew works for this system?
I use ahebrew dictionary, not yiddish or jewish but hebrew words that appear in the torah, over time each margin is filled with its number and becomes an old testament 777.
Im sure my one is published by llewellyn.

Depends on how you want to go about it, I guess.

Honestly, if you know just a little bit about the actual languages, I think that eventually it doesn't really matter, unless you plan on writing a book about it.


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herupakraath
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09/11/2011 9:13 am  
"Samjaza" wrote:
As the numerical values are applied to hebrew based on the understanding that each hebrew word has a number, then it would be so that only the traditionaland ancient hebrew works for this system?

From time to time I find it necessary to fulfill my small role as Hadit and exorcise common delusions that plague my esteemed brethren, so allow me to provide a brief history of gematria and the Hebrew alphabet.

Gematria was also used in Babylonia and in Greece, and probably many other ancient cultures that equated letters with numbers, a practice that was born out of the necessity of having counting systems.

The best evidence indicates the earliest proto-Semitic alphabets were modeled on Egyptian signs; evidence found in 1905 by Petrie, and recent evidence found by Darnell at Wadi-el-hol in 2000 bear this out. Tracing the evolution of the Hebrew letter 'He' shows a direct connection between the the original proto-letter, which is the image of a man kneeling on one knee with his arms outstretched, and the Egyptian sign that represents the Egyptian god Heh, with both the sign and proto-letter sharing the exact same imagery, and sharing the same phonetic value, the /h/ sound.

The oldest Old Testament writings are found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and are conveniently described as being written in "proto-Hebrew," when in fact, they are written using the Phoenician alphabet, a generic Semitic alphabet that had been in existence for many hundreds of years before the Dead Sea Scrolls were written, and used by any number of cultures. The Square Hebrew and modern Hebrew alphabets were created several hundred years after the Old Testament was written.

Another little-known fact is the ability to speak 'biblical Hebrew' as it is called, was lost by the year 200 AD, reducing it to a literary language, which ironically, occurred 200 years before the ability to speak Egyptian was lost, also reducing it to a literary language. Efforts at reconstructing biblical speech started in the 20th century, and are about as accurate and reliable as efforts at reconstructing Egyptian speech; there are simply too many unknown variables to be able to reconstruct the speech of either language accurately.

The point of my response is to warn you not to buy too heavily into religious dogma of any type; there is abundant evidence of historical revisionism on the part of most religious cultures, which is the polite way of calling them liars. No living human knows how to speak the ancient language the Bible is written in, so if I were you I would not worry too much about the specifics. You can choose almost any alphabet and any numbering system and get results if you work with them consistently.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/11/2011 11:33 am  
"herupakraath" wrote:
From time to time I find it necessary to fulfill my small role as Hadit and exorcise common delusions that plague my esteemed brethren, so allow me to provide a brief history of gematria and the Hebrew alphabet.

Enjoyed that post (and the thread actually).. thanks for taking the time to post it 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/11/2011 3:00 pm  

Interesting herupakraath.

The sephardic jews hebrew is different from the Askhenazi jews who dominate Israel but were modern converts?
The Sephardic jews claim to be the descendents of the original tribes maintain their language and gematria as true whose lineage goes back i guess to the cipher of the rivers and the exodus.


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Azidonis
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09/11/2011 3:23 pm  
"Samjaza" wrote:
Interesting herupakraath.

The sephardic jews hebrew is different from the Askhenazi jews who dominate Israel but were modern converts?
The Sephardic jews claim to be the descendents of the original tribes maintain their language and gematria as true whose lineage goes back i guess to the cipher of the rivers and the exodus.

"After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE Pharisaic beliefs became the basis for Rabbinic Judaism, which ultimately produced the normative traditional Judaism which is the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism except for Karaism."

"Kabbalah/Kabala (Hebrew: קַבָּלָה‎ lit. "receiving"; often contemporary transliteration with a 'K' distinguishes from other, derivative traditions outside Judaism)[citation needed] is a discipline and school of thought concerned with the esoteric aspect of Rabbinic Judaism. It was systematized in 11th-13th century Hachmei Provence (Southern France) and Spain, and again after the Expulsion from Spain, in 16th century Ottoman Palestine. It was popularized in the form of Hassidic Judaism in the 18th century."

And it was the Ashkenazi Jews that were settled in Europe, by the way.

"Hebrew belongs to the Canaanite group of languages. In turn the Canaanite languages are a branch of the Northwest Semitic family of languages.[5]

Hebrew flourished as a spoken language in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah during the 10th to 7th centuries BCE. Scholars debate the degree to which Hebrew was a spoken vernacular in ancient times following the Babylonian exile, when the predominant language in the region was Old Aramaic.

Hebrew was nearly extinct as a spoken language by Late Antiquity, but it continued to be used as a literary language and as the liturgical language of Judaism, evolving various dialects of literary Medieval Hebrew, until its revival as a spoken language in the late 19th century."

Anyway, the more I learned about Jewish history, the more I realized that I am not Jewish.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/11/2011 3:38 pm  

I suppose the question could be begged that all religion is corrupted and corrupt!
Which raises the question that gematria as we know it is fundamently flawed.

Or as our Chaos brethren insist, if it works, use it.


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Azidonis
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09/11/2011 4:13 pm  
"Samjaza" wrote:
I suppose the question could be begged that all religion is corrupted and corrupt!
Which raises the question that gematria as we know it is fundamently flawed.

Or as our Chaos brethren insist, if it works, use it.

The history of the Jews is full more with stories of slavery than corruption, in my opinion.

Not necessarily flawed, just way more to it than looking up a couple tables in 777, if you want to get into it in any depth.

Some words have feminine endings, which may completely change the intended meaning (or one's understanding) of available text. Little things like that cause cause one to become confused or led astray.

It's also one of the reasons people have tried so hard to create English Qabalahs.


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
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09/11/2011 6:48 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
And it was the Ashkenazi Jews that were settled in Europe, by the way.

Eastern and Central Europe, anyway. Large populations of Sephardic Jews settled in Spain, which last I checked was part of Europe.

Don't forget that at one point in time, all Jews were Arabs. Including Jesus, if you believe he existed. The Sephardic and Ashkenazi categories came after the diaspora that occured during the Roman Empire, leading to the development of somewhat distinct, separate cultures. But many Jews remained in the Middle East over the centuries. Including my own family, up until the 1960's. Very few Arabic Jews still exist (or are willing to out themselves). Most of us identify as Sephardic, but much of our culture is more closely related to Arabic Muslims than European Sephardic Jews.

(Please pardon the off topic history lesson.)


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Azidonis
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09/11/2011 8:01 pm  
"mika" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
And it was the Ashkenazi Jews that were settled in Europe, by the way.

Eastern and Central Europe, anyway. Large populations of Sephardic Jews settled in Spain, which last I checked was part of Europe.

Don't forget that at one point in time, all Jews were Arabs. Including Jesus, if you believe he existed. The Sephardic and Ashkenazi categories came after the diaspora that occured during the Roman Empire, leading to the development of somewhat distinct, separate cultures. But many Jews remained in the Middle East over the centuries. Including my own family, up until the 1960's. Very few Arabic Jews still exist (or are willing to out themselves). Most of us identify as Sephardic, but much of our culture is more closely related to Arabic Muslims than European Sephardic Jews.

(Please pardon the off topic history lesson.)

It's completely on topic. Thanks for the info, mika.

Understanding the history of a language and its people greatly helps to understand the changes it has undergone.

Simply put, there are many variations of the Qabalah. There are even variations in the Hebrew, let alone those of its Western comrades in Gnosticism, Rosicrucianism, etc.

For instance, "Chokmah", I think, has a feminine ending, and has been associated with the feminine gender. "Chokmah is frequently spoken of in the feminine gender." - Paul Foster Case

But, Chokmah is also the seat of the Chiah: Chiah (Hebrew ChIH, "life") in Kabbalistic lore is the second highest aspect of the human soul corresponding to the second Sephirah Chokmah. Chiah is the essential energy or dynamism of the eternal aspect of the self, the neshamah. In many current magical traditions it is identified with the true will. A.G.H."

In the A:.A:., Chokmah is the seat of the Magus, 9=2. Aleister Crowley, as a Magus, wore the title "To Mega Therion", or "The Great Beast 666". The Image was of a roaring Hawk flying forth with "force & fire", a sort of Phoenix sent to help revive humanity from it's perpetual Slumber.

This puts a very "masculine" feel to Chokmah, not to mention that it is in many cases referred to as the Yang (active) principle, and so forth.

All of this from a "feminine" word.


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mika
 mika
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09/11/2011 9:35 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
All of this from a "feminine" word.

... as processed through Crowley.

Assuming that Crowley's (and other 19th-20th century European Christian male Golden Dawn-trained magicians') interpretations of these symbols and concepts represent the whole of Hermetic Qabala causes more problems than not understanding biblical or ancient Hebrew or the origins of Hebrew letters.

What they represent is Hermetic Qabala as practiced by them. It's up to the individual to determine for ourselves how these concepts manifest in our lives, based on our own understanding of the symbolism. This is why when discussing QBL (Hermetic or Hebrew) letters/symbols, I prefer to be as abstract as possible. For example, instead of quoting Crowley or the GD when asked what Chockmah means, I'd simply refer to the traditional defintion and symbolic associations (the #2, top of the pillar of mercy, "wisdom", the premium mobile, potential, the "Great Father" or 'God as the Father', source of the active/masculine current, etc). We can then discuss what that means for ourselves and how it might play out in our own practice.

Not saying that studying others' interpretations isn't useful, it just needs to be done in the context of 'this is what worked for them, it may not apply to me'.


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Azidonis
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09/11/2011 11:16 pm  
"mika" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
All of this from a "feminine" word.

... as processed through Crowley.

Assuming that Crowley's (and other 19th-20th century European Christian male Golden Dawn-trained magicians') interpretations of these symbols and concepts represent the whole of Hermetic Qabala causes more problems than not understanding biblical or ancient Hebrew or the origins of Hebrew letters.

What they represent is Hermetic Qabala as practiced by them. It's up to the individual to determine for ourselves how these concepts manifest in our lives, based on our own understanding of the symbolism. This is why when discussing QBL (Hermetic or Hebrew) letters/symbols, I prefer to be as abstract as possible. For example, instead of quoting Crowley or the GD when asked what Chockmah means, I'd simply refer to the traditional defintion and symbolic associations (the #2, top of the pillar of mercy, "wisdom", the premium mobile, potential, the "Great Father" or 'God as the Father', source of the active/masculine current, etc). We can then discuss what that means for ourselves and how it might play out in our own practice.

Not saying that studying others' interpretations isn't useful, it just needs to be done in the context of 'this is what worked for them, it may not apply to me'.

Agreed.

The point was that many things have come out of the attributions, according to the languages, understandings, and cultures that have used them. And knowing the history of the aforesaid languages helps one to define those parameters for oneself, of what an attribution is/was generally used for, and how it may best be utilized by one.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
10/11/2011 5:29 am  

That's what some German occultists come up with.


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