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the_real_simon_iff
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25/01/2011 1:37 pm  

93!

In the rather interesting newest issue of Neshamah I find the following:

... in 2002 E.V., six magicians in Detroit decided to study the eighteen Enochian Keys in a manner similar to Crowley and Neuburg's 1909 study of the Thirty Calls. [...] To do this as empirically as possible, they worked in three independent pairs. A ritual script was prepared for banishing and for reading the call, standardizing the pronunciation used by all three groups. One person in each team read the Key on all eighteen occasions, while the other person skried. All three groups conducted the workings on eighteen consecutive Wednesdays, with everyone beginning at the same time, in order to rule out any possible effects due to the time of day or day of the week. All groups used the same incense. Sessions were tape-recorded in order to make transcripts for later comparison; however, to avoid influencing each other, the six participants did not discuss any of thier experiences until after all eighteen Keys were completed.

(From Richard Kaczynski's The Method of Science: Ten Steps toward Scientific Illuminism in Neshamah, The Journal of the Psychology Guild of Ordo Templi Orientis, Volume I, Number 3, Fall 2010)

Does anybody know if the results of this experiment were ever published in any way?

Thanks in advance

Love=Law
Lutz


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Azidonis
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25/01/2011 6:16 pm  

Good question.


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the_real_simon_iff
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21/02/2011 3:29 pm  

93!

Just a short update: This hasn't been published so far and probably won't in the near future. But its publication was considered. Thanks to Richard Kaczynski.

Love=Law
Lutz


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amadan-De
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21/02/2011 4:50 pm  

Strikes me that if this not published (in some detail though obviously names etc. would not be necessary) it makes the whole project a bit redundant.
Why carry out a 'scientific' study if the results are not going to be presented for wider consideration? Failure to publish means that no one else can build on the results even if they are known anecdotally (this is a problem outside of the esoteric 'sciences' too unfortunately). The sceptic in me wonders if the results were not as consistent as they had hoped.....


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the_real_simon_iff
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21/02/2011 5:27 pm  

93!

If I understand Richard correctly it was rather a question of how much interest would be in visions "not by AC (even though AC never got around to doing the 18 keys)", as well as finding the time and format for such a task. And, in the light of the article in Neshamah, it was also "a good example of *experimental design*, but not necessarily a good one for *data analysis.* ;o)"

But who knows, maybe it will get published some day.

Love=Law
Lutz


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amadan-De
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21/02/2011 5:46 pm  

Thanks for that Lutz.

Again it strikes me that if attempting 'Scientific Illuminism' what would be needed is precisely visions "not by AC" - what kind of science would rely on results from only one source? (OR are we drifting into a 'faith-based' situation where statements from the originator are not examined or investigated and no others are sought?) One major point in AC's favour is the extent to which he did leave a large and detailed record (questions of it's completeness and veracity aside) including 'failed' results of actions. If attempting to judge the reality of claims made the more information from the greatest number of sources the better in my view.

Format for publication? Your first post has a nice skeleton of an introduction setting out what was done and the intention. This would need minimal fleshing out and then could simply be followed by the transcript for each of the 18 Keys for each of the 3 teams - with commentary if they made any at the time. This would serve as a presentation of the data - interpretation and speculation and debate would then flow from this initial release. Pretty straight forward to me.

Publish and be damned I say 🙂


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Azidonis
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21/02/2011 8:29 pm  

93,

It seems to me that The Equinox was originally created to be the organ of publishing such experimentation. It was to be our "Thelemic scientific journal".

Sigh...

93 93/93


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amadan-De
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21/02/2011 10:09 pm  

Correct me if I'm wrong but are not all those who set up The Equinox as "your" 'Thelemic scientific journal' now gone on to other things? Would they perhaps not hope that someone might continue with their intention? Does it have to be called The Equinox to be a valid forum?

In the same way as no science should restrict itself to only the opinions/theories of a single individual so it should not expect that all work pertaining to it be published in one place. Personally I'd far rather that such research be published at all than held back because a particular journal is no longer actively in print*. Further I'd rather that such experimentation be published 'out-of-house' to avoid the issue of editorial bias in an avowedly 'Thelemic' publication muddying the waters.

There are more than enough potential journals for such publication (JASM for example) or indeed why not publish the initial research as a single stand-alone volume? If the Will is there it could be done - perhaps the Will is not sufficient.

* or is it? Certainly been quiet for a while. I find it odd that advancing the frontier of Scientific Illuminism, rather than dwelling on past acheivements, should cease. Counter intuitive even.


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Azidonis
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22/02/2011 3:45 am  

93,

"amadan-De" wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but are not all those who set up The Equinox as "your" 'Thelemic scientific journal' now gone on to other things? Would they perhaps not hope that someone might continue with their intention? Does it have to be called The Equinox to be a valid forum?

In the same way as no science should restrict itself to only the opinions/theories of a single individual so it should not expect that all work pertaining to it be published in one place. Personally I'd far rather that such research be published at all than held back because a particular journal is no longer actively in print*. Further I'd rather that such experimentation be published 'out-of-house' to avoid the issue of editorial bias in an avowedly 'Thelemic' publication muddying the waters.

There are more than enough potential journals for such publication (JASM for example) or indeed why not publish the initial research as a single stand-alone volume? If the Will is there it could be done - perhaps the Will is not sufficient.

* or is it? Certainly been quiet for a while. I find it odd that advancing the frontier of Scientific Illuminism, rather than dwelling on past acheivements, should cease. Counter intuitive even.

This was kind of my point. The Equinox used to accomplish this. Perhaps it still does (in some circles). Perhaps there are other journals like it.

Within the journal of every practicing magician are sure to be notes worthy of scientific import, and possibly, publication. This, I'm sure, was the original point of this thread, that the results of some workings were never published.

Should they be? Who knows. It is not for me to judge. Ultimately one's own journals hold far more importance in one's own Great Work.

93 93/93


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amadan-De
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22/02/2011 10:04 pm  

😆
There are a plethora of journals out there of greater or lesser academic focus and greater or lesser esoteric focus - some even published by OTO oases but you are probably better placed than I to discover those. A few others at random - JASM (Journal for the Academic Study of Magic); Pomegranate - the International Journal of Pagan Studies; Ashe; etc.

There are also a range of publishers who might be interested - Fulgur, Scarlet Imprint, Starfire, Three Hands, Jerusalem, Weiser....

There may well be things worthy of publishing in the journals/magickal diaries of practicising magickians but the difference between those and the excercise this thread is about is the avowed attempt "To do this as empirically as possible". Three teams performing the same actions at the same times and looking for correlations between their results is a little different from individual Unconfirmable Personal Gnosis no matter how diligently recorded or persuasive. I have nothing against UPG - I have several myself and have chewed over others' to reach sometimes startling insight - but I don't mistake them for empirical evidence presentable for testing by my peers and betters.

I like to think that there is a possibility for empirical evidence in this area and I know that more and more academics are beginning to deal with this (or have been quietly doing so below the radar of the occult community who frankly often don't look at what may be going on outside the particular row they are hoeing...)

As for The Great Work - I think my view on that is slightly more...rosicrucian - it doesn't stop until we all reach the summit, not just me nor a 'chosen people'. Not very Thelemic I guess but... 🙄


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Azidonis
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22/02/2011 10:56 pm  

93,

"amadan-De" wrote:
😆
There are a plethora of journals out there of greater or lesser academic focus and greater or lesser esoteric focus - some even published by OTO oases but you are probably better placed than I to discover those.

Me? I'm just another dude trying to do my Will. I have about as much of a "position" as any other random dude.

A few others at random - JASM (Journal for the Academic Study of Magic); Pomegranate - the International Journal of Pagan Studies; Ashe; etc.

Interesting.

There are also a range of publishers who might be interested - Fulgur, Scarlet Imprint, Starfire, Three Hands, Jerusalem, Weiser....

Agreed.

There may well be things worthy of publishing in the journals/magickal diaries of practicising magickians but the difference between those and the excercise this thread is about is the avowed attempt "To do this as empirically as possible". Three teams performing the same actions at the same times and looking for correlations between their results is a little different from individual Unconfirmable Personal Gnosis no matter how diligently recorded or persuasive. I have nothing against UPG - I have several myself and have chewed over others' to reach sometimes startling insight - but I don't mistake them for empirical evidence presentable for testing by my peers and betters.

I agree in some ways. My view of Thelema insists on some form of empirical evidence, whether this means going "out on the Plane" and coming back with some entity's red sweater (it's a joke), or being able to verify such things Qabalistically and independently. In my opinion, anyone versed in the proper fields "should" be able to pick up anyone else's journal, and measure those results on their own, and come up with similar results as the individual who recorded those experiences.

To use an example from another thread, any chemist can take NaCl and create salt. In the same token, any magician should be able to use or at least identify him/herself with any other paradigm and enjoy the functional use of the same.

This is, in my opinion, one of the many meanings of that which is said in Liber B vel Magi, verse 14: "Let Him beware of abstinence from action. For the curse of His grade is that He must speak Truth, that the Falsehood thereof may enslave the souls of men. Let Him then utter that without Fear, that the Law may be fulfilled. And according to His Original Nature will that law be shapen, so that one may declare gentleness and quietness, being an Hindu; and another fierceness and servility, being a Jew; and yet another ardour and manliness, being an Arab. Yet this matter toucheth the mystery of Incarnation, and is not here to be declared."

I agree that this type of science is somehow seen as "more empirical" when done by a group, especially a well-known one, but isn't it the very nature of this science that it can be done and verified by the individual? If you cannot pick up my Records and have an idea of what is going on in there, then there is definitely a problem. Either it is the way I am Recording events, or the events themselves.

At any rate, it is largely known that spiritual progress is mostly self-evident, meaning each person will generally understand certain things only by experiencing them on their own. However, there is a large amount of self-evident pieces that we are able to examine in a scientific light, and thereby gain understanding.

An example of this, which you may enjoy, is a recent report I did in a course I am taking in college: The Legacy of the Hebrew Bible. We were assigned to take one verse or selection of verses from the Nevi'im (the prophets), and write a sort of commentary on the same. I chose to do a short Qabalistic analysis on the first verse in the Book of Ezekiel. As it turns out, that verse alone is basically a certificate of authenticity for the following Vision.

This is something that everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the Qabalah can ascertain for themselves. In Ezekiel's time however, it was more than likely a matter of self-evidence.

I like to think that there is a possibility for empirical evidence in this area and I know that more and more academics are beginning to deal with this (or have been quietly doing so below the radar of the occult community who frankly often don't look at what may be going on outside the particular row they are hoeing...)

This is of particular interest to me as well, as one of my main aspirations is to help develop what we commonly know as magick into an accepted science.

As for The Great Work - I think my view on that is slightly more...rosicrucian - it doesn't stop until we all reach the summit, not just me nor a 'chosen people'. Not very Thelemic I guess but... 🙄

I suppose this would be the Buddhist equivalence of a Bodisattva, in comparison to that of the Arhat. I honestly don't see why one cannot "achieve both weddings".

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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04/05/2011 5:21 pm  

Could someone please recommend a few good "starter" books on the Enochian system?

Thanks in advance.


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einDoppelganger
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04/05/2011 11:50 pm  

Lon Milo Duquette's book Enochian Vision Magick is the best I have read. Its thorough but clear enough to get you working the system of Dee and Kelly.
http://www.amazon.com/Enochian-Vision-Magick-Introduction-Practical/dp/1578633826/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1304548961&sr=8-2-spell

I have not read this next one but I hear it is a great bare bones breakdown of Enochian to get you up and running fast. Mostly Lon Milo Duquette's work with portions by Christopher S Hyatt. Ignore the unfortunate New Falcon title scheme of throwing the term "Sex Magick" on everything... (Please dont picture Christopher S Hyatt having sex... )

(oh no you pictured it... you can't unsee it now )

http://www.amazon.com/Enochian-World-Aleister-Crowley-Magick/dp/1935150278/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1304549041&sr=1-1

You definitely want to AVOID The Lost Art of Enochian Magic
It was obviously started as a history of magic book for the absolute beginner then morphed halfway through into a book (supposedly) about Enochian. The majority feels cribbed from Duquette's book with some lackluster "discoveries" by the author. The CD of pronouncations is hardly impressive. The worst part is the author feels Crowley performed "black magic" and makes some silly remarks about the beast and his enochian visions... DeSalvo spends a lot of time trying to reconcile his own performance of Enochian Magick with his Judeao Christian beliefs... Makes for awkward reading
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Enochian-Magic-Invocations/dp/1594773440/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
[/img]


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christibrany
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05/05/2011 2:37 am  

Really good books of which i have both are Gerald Schuelers (not to be confused with gerald schuster 🙂 books 'Enochian Magic' and 'Advanced Enochian Magick'
they start with the whys and wheres and move onto the whats and who's with good diagrams.


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 Anonymous
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05/05/2011 7:28 am  

Is "True and Faithful Relation" by Meric C. helpful at all?

Again, thanks.


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Azidonis
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05/05/2011 8:23 am  
"Wanderer-Exile" wrote:
Is "True and Faithful Relation" by Meric C. helpful at all?

Again, thanks.

I should hope so... isn't it as close to the original work as we can get?


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einDoppelganger
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05/05/2011 9:41 am  
"Wanderer-Exile" wrote:
Is "True and Faithful Relation" by Meric C. helpful at all?

Again, thanks.

Honestly I would avoid it for editorial hostility on the part of Casaubon, general inaccuracies, and the chance you will taint your own experience of the Enochian intelligences with the visions of another. There are far better introductory materials as well as newer editions of the source materials with better editorship but True and Faithful Relation is worth getting later down the line, by all means.


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christibrany
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05/05/2011 2:22 pm  

Also good is a book I randomly found at my university library last week . It's in two volumes.
It's 'Christopher Lionel Whitby - John Dee Actions With Spirits 22 December To 23 May 1583'
First volume is commentary or notes and second one is the actual manuscript, which seems backwards to me but hey the info is good!
Its the original folio of sloane 1833 i think thats the number. but you get the pt 🙂


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Walterfive
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06/05/2011 7:41 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
An example of this, which you may enjoy, is a recent report I did in a course I am taking in college: The Legacy of the Hebrew Bible. We were assigned to take one verse or selection of verses from the Nevi'im (the prophets), and write a sort of commentary on the same. I chose to do a short Qabalistic analysis on the first verse in the Book of Ezekiel. As it turns out, that verse alone is basically a certificate of authenticity for the following Vision.

This is something that everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the Qabalah can ascertain for themselves. In Ezekiel's time however, it was more than likely a matter of self-evidence.

Don't suppose you'd care to share that with us? I've been working for decades on the assumption that "the wheel within a wheel" that Ezekiel described, with its four heads, is nothing more or less than The Zodiac, and Ezekiel a Qabbalist and Astrologer.


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Azidonis
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07/05/2011 2:56 pm  

93,

"Walterfive" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
An example of this, which you may enjoy, is a recent report I did in a course I am taking in college: The Legacy of the Hebrew Bible. We were assigned to take one verse or selection of verses from the Nevi'im (the prophets), and write a sort of commentary on the same. I chose to do a short Qabalistic analysis on the first verse in the Book of Ezekiel. As it turns out, that verse alone is basically a certificate of authenticity for the following Vision.

This is something that everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the Qabalah can ascertain for themselves. In Ezekiel's time however, it was more than likely a matter of self-evidence.

Don't suppose you'd care to share that with us? I've been working for decades on the assumption that "the wheel within a wheel" that Ezekiel described, with its four heads, is nothing more or less than The Zodiac, and Ezekiel a Qabbalist and Astrologer.

I could email you a copy, or something, but I'm not going to post and edit a 5 page Word document any time soon. Plus, I made one huge bonehead blunder that could crash the entire idea, so I'd have to write an appendix or something.

I suppose you would want the one classifying the five types of fear in the book of Job, too? My professor didn't know what to think about that one. She did seem to enjoy the one I did about the book of Job being an account of his particular abyssal ordeal.

93 93/93


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amadan-De
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07/05/2011 5:34 pm  

All this sounds very interesting (always been a fan of Job). By the sounds of it you have the germ of a very nice little book. 'hint, hint' 🙂


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Azidonis
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07/05/2011 8:01 pm  
"amadan-De" wrote:
All this sounds very interesting (always been a fan of Job). By the sounds of it you have the germ of a very nice little book. 'hint, hint' 🙂

It's very possible I'll end up on Lulu some time in the future. 🙂


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amadan-De
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08/05/2011 6:29 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"amadan-De" wrote:
All this sounds very interesting (always been a fan of Job). By the sounds of it you have the germ of a very nice little book. 'hint, hint' 🙂

It's very possible I'll end up on Lulu some time in the future. 🙂

Please do, and don't forget to keep us posted.


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AdoniaZanoni
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15/06/2011 9:29 am  

There are two Enochian works that might be of interest.

1) Stephen Skinner is planning to publish Dr John Dee's Spiritual Diaries (1583-1608).
http://www.goldenhoard.net/index.htm
This is a reset and corrected edition of a True & Faithful Relation.

His website states: 

“This is a completely revamped and reader-friendly edition of A True & Faithful Relation of what passed for many Years between Dr. John Dee... and some Spirits, transcribed and prefaced by Meric Casaubon in 1659. Now edited by Stephen Skinner, with a detailed introduction, appendices, extensive footnotes, supplementary texts, additional illustrations, and a Dee timeline.

This book contains John Dee's Spiritual Diaries for 25 years (1583-1608), now made available for the first time in an organized and readable form. For any scholar or practitioner of magic, easy access to Dee's Enochian system is one of the most important parts of the Western Esoteric tradition. This book covers Dee's invocation of the angels, the reception of their Enochian system of magic, his experiments in alchemy, and experiences in the courts of the crowned heads of Europe.

This book has been totally re-set, re-formatted and updated, incorporating corrections from the original notes of Meric Casaubon, Elias Ashmole and William Shippen, with reference to the original manuscript written by Dee. Sections which were originally missing from Casaubon's edition have been added. Angels, spirits, people, places, dates and times have been fully footnoted, and many of Casaubon's errors corrected. The reader will find this a much more accessible entrance to the world of Dr Dee's conferences with angels and spirits, and a welcome improvement.

Stephen Skinner was responsible for initially stimulating the renewed interest in John Dee and Enochian magic by first re-publishing Meric Casaubon's True and Faithful Relation... in 1973.”

2) Tabatha Cicero of the Golden Dawn has interesting article on Wynn Wescott’s Enochian Tablets which have different variances. A full article on this will be published in Volume 4, issue 4 of Hermetic Virtues Magazine. I also heard a book will published on this. Wescott was certainly a figure in the Golden Dawn that certainly deserves more recognition than he has gotten. His tables use all four color scales of the Golden Dawn incorporate the Tree of Life in a unique manner never seen before.

http://order-of-the-golden-dawn.blogspot.com/2011/05/secrets-of-westcotts-enochian-tablets.html


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einDoppelganger
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15/06/2011 11:51 am  

Great news! Its about time too. I can't read "True and Faithful Relation" for any extended period of time with all those descending s (ſ) letters without picking up a lisp!

or rather, perhapſ I ſhould ſay , liſp! 😀

Picking this up poſt haſte! Thanks for pointing it out!


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