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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
03/03/2009 2:20 pm  

All,

I'll be taking my annual trip to Egypt in April and am hoping that informed or well-connected members here might be able to make the visit more "Thelemic" than usual!

Specifically, I'm after the following, although anyone who helps has to realise that I'll doubtless bombard them with an extraordinary number of additional questions...

1 - I'm rather fed up with taking the iPhone into the Museum in the hope of getting some photographs of the Stele and Sarcophagus of Ankhefenkhons. Does anyone here have any contacts at the Museum that might be able to approve the taking of the photographs? I'd also like to request the possibility of a private viewing of the Stele, possibly with the payment of suitable donations or facilitation fees...

2 - Has anyone here definitively established the temple within Karnak that Ankhefenkhons is associated? I've always assumed it's the Temple of Khonsu (it certainly 'feels right' and the hieroglyphs would suggest this to be correct), but understand that opinions vary...

3 - Has anyone here taken the trouble to establish the actual addresses at which Crowley stayed in Cairo and where they may be located?

4 - Any specific locations of Thelemic/Crowleyan interest that I might not already have visited? I've visited Egypt more than a dozen times but in the past it's always been with other family members: this time I have three weeks in which to indulge!

Many thanks - further questions to follow as prompted by the answers!

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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herupakraath
(@herupakraath)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 453
04/03/2009 6:09 am  

2 - Has anyone here definitively established the temple within Karnak that Ankhefenkhons is associated? I've always assumed it's the Temple of Khonsu (it certainly 'feels right' and the hieroglyphs would suggest this to be correct), but understand that opinions vary...

An interesting question that lead to a minor discovery. In 2004, there was an International Congress of Egyptologists held in Grenoble, documented in a volume with the same name. In the book there is a brief analysis of some of the Egyptian stelae, and the Stele of Revealing happens to be one of them, accompanied by photographs. According to the data, out of the many Egyptian stelae, there are only seven that feature Nuit standing on the left side of the stele and bending toward the right; three out of the seven are in the Cairo Museum. It would be interesting if you could gather some comparative data with the other two stele that show Nuit arching to the right.

To answer your question, the aforementioned book places the origin of the Stele of Revealing ( A 9422 ) at Gurnah (Qurna/Kurna) at Thebes, meaning the place where it was found, which was presumably also the resting place of the coffin and other related artifacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurna_temple

Tim


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tony1983112
(@tony1983112)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 10
04/03/2009 11:48 am  

Paul,

I found this contact info on http://www.museumsector.gov.eg/ they might be able to help.

www.sca.gov.eg
www.guardians.net/hawass
www.museumsector.gov.eg

Fax Numbers

(002)02-5796974

(002)02-5794596

E-Mails

Museumsector@Idsc.net.eg
cairomuseum1@hotmail.com
cairomuseum2@hotmail.com


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4054
04/03/2009 11:52 pm  

Well, Paul, good luck with your hope for a private viewing. I've made several attempts to procure from the Cairo Museum a photograph of the Stele of Revealing, and run into a brick wall. Perhaps expressing an interest in this stele makes one a particular specimen of lowlife as far as the Museum is concerned.

Best wishes,

Michael the cockroach.


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slq
 slq
(@slq)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 15
05/03/2009 2:12 am  

To answer your question, the aforementioned book places the origin of the Stele of Revealing ( A 9422 ) at Gurnah (Qurna/Kurna) at Thebes, meaning the place where it was found, which was presumably also the resting place of the coffin and other related artifacts.

When a bunch of OTO members visited Egypt for the Liber AL centennial in 2004, one of our brethren made contact with an official from the SCA and was able to obtain more information. Although the Stele was indeed found at Qurna (or Gournah as it is spelled on the museum tag), this was not its original location. It was actually found in a large cache of artifacts. Sometime during the 18th or 19th century, the local villagers removed artifacts from tombs in the area and buried them or hid them in caves in order to save them from grave robbers. (They believed that misfortune would fall upon them if they allowed the tombs to be descrated by outsiders.)

This is how Mariette was able to acquire so many artifacts for the museum in so short a time; his main talent was not so much excavation as befriending the locals and getting them to show him where the caches were located.

So the precise original location of the Stele and the sarcophagus are unknown, but it is thought that they come from a tomb in Deir el-Bahri (near Thebes, on the west bank of the Nile opposite Luxor). Qurna/Gournah is nearby.

Vere


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slq
 slq
(@slq)
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Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 15
05/03/2009 2:24 am  

3 - Has anyone here taken the trouble to establish the actual addresses at which Crowley stayed in Cairo and where they may be located?

As far as I know the actual address was never recorded, only a general description of a house near where five roads met in the Boulaq quarter. The Boulaq quarter is located just northwest of where the Egyptian Museum is today (it moved there in 1902 so it is the same location where Crowley saw the Stele).

When we were there with the OTO in 2004, we walked all through the Boulaq quarter looking for possible matches to this description, and found several. It is also possible that the buildings and urban topography have changed since then. So we didn't come to any definitive conclusions about a likely location for the reception of AL. Perhaps you may have better luck.

Nota bene: this is not a tourist area! You will likely get some stares from the inhabitants, but you should be safe, especially if you travel with a companion and visit during the day. Our posse of 19 OTO members from 6 different countries probably presented quite a sight, but we weren't hassled or greeted with anything other than curiosity.

Vere

P.S. I'll e-mail you off-line about your first question.


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slq
 slq
(@slq)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 15
05/03/2009 3:08 am  

Ok, I've found some more information about the cache in which the Stele was found. This is from my electronic archives, copied from a website which is apparently no longer online.

The sarcophagi of Ankh-f-n-khonsu, and the box-like wooden shrine they would originally have been in, were amongst those items found in that cache by the great pioneering French archaeologist Auguste Mariette, or one of his excavating gangs at least, in 1858, soon after he was given the founding directorship of the Antiquities Service earlier that same year. He had previously been commissioned, in 1854, to found a museum in Boulaq after his sensational discovery of the Serapeum in Memphis. The Mentu priests' sarcophagi were found in one or both of the two small shrines in either side of the temple [of Hatshepsut in Deir el Bahari], having been placed there in ancient times to protect them from thieves. However, the excavation was not formally documented and I have yet to find a record of which it was, if either. [...]

It was, however, recorded (on the card numbered 666, which still accompanies the stélé in the Egyptian Museum, in its display case) that the stélé was from Gournah. That was the village at the entrance of the Deir el Bahari valley (since relocated away from the necropolis) so it is clear it was found in that district. It is likely that the mummy of Ankh-f-n-khonsu was still in the sarcophagus when it was discovered but was unwrapped and dumped there in the valley of Deir el Bahari. Immediate disposal of the mummy, after searching it for valuables, was standard practice in those rough-and-ready early days of Egyptian archaeology. There was originally, presumably, a tomb of Ankh-f-n-khonsu in the necropolis. Others of priests of the period have survived but his has not. The 1858 cache was the first of several found in Deir el Bahari, one in particular much more famous; but also including another one of priests of Mentu, excavated, thankfully, after archaeology had developed into a science.

So, the closest you are likely to get is the Temple of Hatshepsut, which is a magnificent site in and of itself & I highly recommend spending some quality time there.

Vere


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slq
 slq
(@slq)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 15
05/03/2009 3:37 am  

Ok, lo and behold, it turns out that a copy of the original source for my quote above is already hosted on this website here.

I'll post a photo of the Temple of Hatshepsut to the gallery shortly.

Last post from me on this subject, I promise... (unless pressed).

Vere


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Proteus
(@proteus)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 243
05/03/2009 4:04 am  

2 - Has anyone here definitively established the temple within Karnak that Ankhefenkhons is associated? I've always assumed it's the Temple of Khonsu

Short answer - not that I know of.

He had to be associated with the Temple of Khonsu and/or the Temple of Amen as they were the only active temples at that time. Based on his lineage's significant association with Amen, I'd assume that he was associated with the Temple of Amen.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
07/03/2009 12:40 am  

3 - Has anyone here taken the trouble to establish the actual addresses at which Crowley stayed in Cairo and where they may be located?

I thought the Arabic script on the BoL manuscript may have indicated the hotel AC stayed at but apparently its a generic phrase and gives no indication of whcih hotel it was taken from.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5325
07/03/2009 1:52 am  

My thanks to everyone so far - some fascinating stuff. And my thanks to herupakrath for details of the Proceedings.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 501
12/03/2009 11:53 pm  

Here is Crowley’s best description of the place; it’s from EOG, 1936 p109:

“The city was Cairo.

The street, or rather streets, I do not remember. There is a `Place' where four or five streets intersect; it is near the Boulak Museum, but a fairly long way from Shepherd's. The quarter is fashionable European. The house occupied a corner. I do not remember its orientation; but, as appears from the instructions for invoking Horus, one window of the temple opened to the East or North. The apartment was of several rooms on the ground floor, well furnished in the Anglo-Egyptian style. It was let by a firm named Congdon & Co.

The room was a drawing-room cleared of fragile obstacles, but not otherwise prepared to serve as a temple. It had double doors, opening on to the corridor to the North and a door to the East leading to another room, the dining-room, I think. It had two windows opening on the Place, to the South, and a writing table against the wall between them.”

I could not find a map for 1904 so the best I could do was this one from 1908. It is in the galleries under “Places”.

The green areas are gardens and vegetation, the pink areas are buildings and the brown outlines larger or prominent buildings, usually within their own grounds.

North is approximately at 11 o’clock on this map.

North of the Ismailiya Canal is Boulaq (Boulak). It is an industrial area, occupied by local folks and most of the streets are not straight enough to form crossroads or junctions and those few that do do not run North/South or East/West. (see below for why)

The Tewfikiya Quarter is too near Shepheard’s Hotel. (often called Shepherd’s) and the buildings along the south bank of the Ismailiya canal are public buildings – French Archaeological Institute, hospital, water works etc. The Ismailiya Quarter has unsuitable buildings (green) to the west and the eastern half (pink) has to be ruled out because (damn me for a dog) it is nearer to the Hotel than the museum. Shepheard’s Hotel has moved several times but this one was put there in 1891 so is the one referred to by AC.

South of the eastern half of the Ismailiya Quarter is the Abdin Quarter. This, and to the south of this, are the only areas that seem to me to fit the bill. If there are two windows to the south and the apartment is on a corner then the window described as north or east has to be on the east unless the apartment occupies the whole of the depth of the building. Also, in these circumstances, considering the general N/S E/W direction of the streets in these areas the building concerned would be at the upper left of those divided by a crossroads or similar even if complicated by a fifth road.

Below the number 4 on the map is the Kasr en-Nil barracks. From that point and running slightly up the page and to the right, in the direction of the Ezbeckiya Gardens (below and to the right of the number 1 on the map) is Sharia Kasr en-Nil (Nile Palace Street). This street is where Congdon & Co had their house agent business. If you want to google any of this stuff bear in mind that you have to try lots of spelling variations. Ezbekiya can be Esbekia, Ezbekia, Azbakia etc. Also the Arabic article ‘al’ or ‘el’ changes to ‘ed’ ‘en’, ‘er’ or ‘es’ before a word beginning with D,N,R, or S but not everyone bothers.

Here is a chunk on Cairo from a period Encyclopaedia Britannica:

“The government offices and other modern public buildings are nearly all in the western half of the city. On the south side of the Ezbekia are the post office, the courts of the International Tribunals, and the opera house. On the east side are the bourse and the Crédit Lyonnais, on the north the buildings of the American mission. On or near the west side of the gardens are most of the large and luxurious hotels which the city contains for the accommodation of Europeans. Facing the river immediately north of the Great Nile bridge are the large barracks, called Kasr-en-Nil, and the new museum of Egyptian antiquities (opened in 1902). South of the bridge are the Ismailia palace (a khedivial residence), the British consulate general, the palace of the khedive's mother, the medical school and the government hospital. Farther removed from the river are the offices of the ministries of public works and of war - a large building surrounded by gardens - and of justice and finance. On the east side of Abdin Square is Abdin palace, an unpretentious building used for official receptions. Adjoining the palace are barracks. N.E. of Abdin Square, in the Sharia Mehemet Ali, is the Arab museum and khedivial library. Near this building are the new courts of the native tribunals.

Private houses in these western districts consist chiefly of residential flats, though in the Kasr el-Dubara quarter are many detached residences.”

On the map Kasr el-Dubara is spelt Kasr ed-Dubara

So my best guess is in the south west of the Abdin Quarter up against Kasr ed-Dubara.

In 1952 there were anti British public disturbances that resulted in a fire that destroyed a large area including Shepheard’s Hotel but I don’t think it reached as far south as the area I’m talking about. Google Earth shows some of the same street patterns but whether the buildings are the same is impossible to tell.

OK


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dvd464
(@dvd464)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 15
16/03/2009 2:52 pm  
"tony1983112" wrote:
Paul,

I found this contact info on http://www.museumsector.gov.eg/ they might be able to help.

www.sca.gov.eg
www.guardians.net/hawass
www.museumsector.gov.eg

Fax Numbers

(002)02-5796974

(002)02-5794596

E-Mails

Museumsector@Idsc.net.eg
cairomuseum1@hotmail.com
cairomuseum2@hotmail.com

Hi tony1983112 and Paul. Doctor Hawass is the same person who helps Peter Marshall in his search for The Philosopher’s Stone. ‘I was again given special permission by Dr Zahi Hawass to visit the subterranean chamber, access to which is strictly forbidden’. The secret’s buried in a crypt underneath the sphinx but when I read this forum I sometimes get a This is as true as the fact that the shaft on the south of the great pyramid points straight to Sirius as you can see from the chamber room. Is it an experience, or what? Did you feel the presence of Isis and Osiris, the great orgasm of Cosmos, both male and female principles? How many times have I been to Egypt (not in my dreams!)? One or none… Is it possible that ‘4638ABK24ALGMOR3YX2489RPSTOVAL’ are symbols on some sort of advanced combination lock like in Star Gate and hidden inside are all kinds of revolutionary scientific and political ideas?

Love/Lyk


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faustian
(@faustian)
Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 154
17/03/2009 3:29 am  

Boulaq is two places. One place - Boulaq - is on the East Bank, North of the Hilton. There is also the other colloquial Boulaq, which is Zamalek island, from the French Beau Lac. We know the Boulaq museum (now closed) was in Zamelek. We also know that Rose Kelly spent a great deal of time in the Gezirah gardens - also in Zamalek. And we know that Crowley spent a great deal of time on a boat back an forth, Why? Because he was going to the 'island' - again Zamelek.

The five intersecting streets are not in the Garden City.


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 501
22/03/2009 1:46 pm  

The temple of Montu (aka Montou, Month) is not the same as that of Khonsu (aka Khonsou, Khonsut) although it is nearby. Montu's area is to the North.

There is a diagram here:

http://www.planetware.com/map/temple-of-karnak-map-egy-tk_n.htm

and a picture and another diagram here:

http://www.egyptologyonline.com/500x250%2520Karnak%2520precinct%2520of%2520Montu.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.egyptologyonline.com/500x250%2520Karnak%2520precinct%2520of%2520Montu.jp g"/> &imgrefurl= http://www.egyptologyonline.com/temple_of_karnak.htm&usg=__tGhtRZ9e0rbM_uS3FZ4hQGUf8UA=&h=250&w=500&sz=29&hl=en&start=5&um=1&tbnid=jfxnzusXPs4-6M:&tbnh=65&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmontu%2Bkarnak%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

OK


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 501
22/03/2009 2:17 pm  

PS

If you google "pregnant of montou" you get only two sites. And from these it seems that Montu's area is ruined and inaccessible to modern visitors. Also, from somewhere else I forget where, this area was renovated in the thirtieth dynasty so probably unrecognisable to AFNK should he return.

The reason for 'pregnant' by the way is that the French word 'enciente' means enclosure but is used in English as a euphemism for pregnant and French egyptologists put an 'o' near the end of Montu.

OK


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