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Location of the Babalon working

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I'm interested in tracking down the location of the Babalon Working conducted by Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard in the Mojave desert. Parsons lived in Pasadena so it probably wasn't too far from there. Also Parsons' own description of the working seemed to indicate it was conducted indoors.

Is it's location known? If so, has anyone visited this site in recent years?

Many thanks in advance.
Frater C.D.


   
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i always tell people it's black rock city, home of burning man. i know it's not the mojave, but it sure makes sense to me (though i don't ponder it deeper than that!)

curious too though...


   
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Thanks Anistara
Black Rock is possible, but Nevada is a very long way away.
It's surprising how little information there is. There are references to the Mojave, but nothing specific. I thought this site would be almost as important to Thelemites as Cefalu! (At least it's more accessible to us in the US!)
I'm hoping to find out if there's any interest in recreating the ceremony, at the exact site on the correct dates. This time, perhaps, we could avoid some of the mistakes that Parsons fell into, (and hopefully his demise!). It would be fascinating to restore the communication he began with this specifically Thelemic goddess!

Many thanks
Frater C.D.


   
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"ahast42696" wrote:
I'm hoping to find out if there's any interest in recreating the ceremony, at the exact site on the correct dates. This time, perhaps, we could avoid some of the mistakes that Parsons fell into, (and hopefully his demise!).

This time, perhaps?? And hopefully his demise?!?!

You sound completely deluded. You're aware of Crowley's opinion of Parsons attempt, right? So if you think you're smarter and can avoid Parson's mistakes, why would you need to carry out the Babalon Working at the exact same site, same date and recreate the exact same ceremony? You're going to all this effort to do the exact same thing, but, perhaps, avoid his mistakes and, hopefully, his demise....


   
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ahast42696,

I'm not trying to pick on you, but you need to do your research before you start asking strangers on the internet if they would be interested in recreating the Babalon Working. Start by reading the RED GODDESS by Peter Grey, Scarlet Imprint...


   
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Hi Tai,

I appreciate your concern. I am looking for like minded individuals with the knowledge and enthusiasm to share in something extraordinary. If you want to send your good wishes, I will be pleased to accept them. I'm surprised at the assumptions you leaped to, and I'm not sure who you believe 'deluded' me? Perhaps you meant 'self-deluded'? That would be another matter, and a familiar accusation for anyone with interests extend to any of the material on this this website. Anyway I don't have any desire to have an argument with you. To clarify I am looking for people who would be interested in recreating perhaps the most important magical working of the 20th century. Not slavishly following it's footsteps, but learning from the lesson Parsons left behind at the cost of his life.

Enough justification. Anyone interested in this endeavor who would like to contribute information or any other form of support, please respond. Nay-sayers are welcome to their opinion, but please move on!

Kindly
Frater C.D.


   
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I don't have the time or resources, but good luck. Tell us how it goes.


   
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"tai" wrote:
"ahast42696" wrote:
I'm hoping to find out if there's any interest in recreating the ceremony, at the exact site on the correct dates. This time, perhaps, we could avoid some of the mistakes that Parsons fell into, (and hopefully his demise!).

This time, perhaps?? And hopefully his demise?!?!

You sound completely deluded. You're aware of Crowley's opinion of Parsons attempt, right? So if you think you're smarter and can avoid Parson's mistakes, why would you need to carry out the Babalon Working at the exact same site, same date and recreate the exact same ceremony? You're going to all this effort to do the exact same thing, but, perhaps, avoid his mistakes and, hopefully, his demise....

👿
with out sounding corny, this springs to Mind..

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Love is the law, love under will


   
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(@iris)
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I tend to think it might be closer to Giant Rock than Black Rock. But I am unsure hence why this thread is being consulted. 

Cara Frater C.D.,

Thank you for your astute comments and question. Agree wholeheartedly in your opinion that this site ought to be a Thelemic High-Holy Abby of sorts, to paraphrase!

I think the singer of a certain Thelemically-inlined industrial band, 3TEETH (like the Trident) might be camping out there in an effort to revive the magick done in that location. Weather he was attempting to set up base-camp in the location that Parsons himself used, somewhere near it, or if this is entirely in my head, I am unsure. Still, I see him channeling Parsons himself; the Priestess in me feeling a strong magickal link there, to then, and now and this is why I'm sniffing out Giant Rock. Its coordinates have the number of Chronozon present. Fun fun. Too bas we haven't heard from anyone with any indication as to the exact coordinates or who knew of any references to them. That's crazy talk. 

As for the dude you were exchanging words with - don't engage the riff raff. Silence is deafening. Crowley thought badly of Achad's work too but low and behold, it was still phenomenal. 

 

Much Love, 

Soror I.E. 


   
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Posted by: @iris

Crowley thought badly of Achad's work too but low and behold, it was still phenomenal. 

In the late 1980s I went though a phase – it lasted for a few years – of thinking that Parsons was the best thing since sliced bread. Though I don't have the the same esteem for him any more, I learnt a lot from my period of obsession with Parsons and Cameron. The turning-point for me came when I thought more and more about how readily he was taken in by Hubbard.

Though it's true that Crowley thought little of Achad too, in my view there's a world of difference between Achad and Parsons. Achad lacked the heights of articulation that we find in some of the material by Parsons; by the same token, though, in my view there is much more of substance in Achad's work.

I've always had the impression that the Babalon Working, which he performed with Hubbard, was indoors; it was the reception of the 77 verses deemed to be the fourth chapter of The Book of the Law which occurred in the Mojave Desert, and again I've always had the impression that Hubbard was away elsewhere when these verses came through.


   
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(@iris)
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@michael-staley Dear Michael,

As a woman I'm a bit prone to not slicing any bread by sheer disdain for bread-making. While having a wee crush on Parsons certainly there aren't many magickians (as Nema spelled it) that have operated which I don't see the flaw of human frailty in a bit more painstakingly than I'd like or is ever comfortable. We exhonorate the ancient Greek philosophers and yet, one brief look at how they treated their wives will show you of the narrowness of any wisdom possessed. That they were men of their Time does not excuse it either. This has been wired into me to an unfortunate but exacting degree. I am always a little wary frankly of most all people not excluding those in magick. Though I don't think Parsons work was the best thing since Sliced bread, I have my reasons for asking. It's his personality, intellect, and poetry that I really adored. And his Love of the Great Work and magick itself. What did his being easily "taken" by Hubbard change in your higher opinions of Parsons and Cameron, and "taken", how? 

 

I hope I did not seem to be making any analogy between Parsons and Achad as I was not. We  could comparatively analyze our subjective opinions or any objective ones about the differences in their work until the cows come home they were so vastly unlike one and other excepting the freedom of their own agencies! I'd be happy to do so though, and enjoy listening to your comments. I've too much to say and doubt as many would enjoy listening to my banter about it. 

 

Interesting your comments about the actual location as I feel similarly about Crowley and Rose and the reception of Liber Al concerning its actual dates, or even times, and therefore, their whereabouts. I suppose it was the Liber's reception I am asking about then, not the Babalon Working! Still, my wits tell me there was much work done in part of both out of doors too. Do you have any reasons for thinking that they weren't done directly under the starry bosom of Nuit? 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @michael-staley

The turning-point for me came when I thought more and more about how readily he was taken in by Hubbard.

Now that was a true crisis point in a magical career, even though it took place on the hard Pasadena physical plane and involved money.

Posted by: @iris

That they were men of their Time does not excuse it either.

This has been posted, many times, as the defense of AC when he uses racial slurs or misogynies Osiris was murdered, you see, so who ran the aeonic show? Set, of course, that's why he killed Asar - to get the throne. But Asar/Jesus was held up in pics of min on throne, a "Big Brother" delusion, with Set hidden behind in Deep State mode. 

Since Set had his testicles ripped off  by Horus, he could have no kids. But his wife Nepthys slipped away to Asar to get filled with Anubis who helped Isis and was adopted by Thoth. I cite the whole orgiastic paradigm for clarity.

Clarity? Yeah, Set ran the Aeon of Osiris, is still in charge out there as far as I can tell, hidden behind the Big Brothers, and ladies are not first in that realm. We see breakthroughs here and there, in gender or sex or combinations thereof, but as far as I can tell, the ladies in charge presently are not under the dominion of Ra-Hoor or Maat.

Our only choice is to get out, as recommended in 333, Ch 23.

Posted by: @iris

"taken", how? 

Goodness. I thought everybody knew about the "great take" that essentially destroyed Agape Lodge, Parsons, and Thelema (for entry into a dark age). Since I was there, in the dark age, dragging the dead body of the phoenix across the barren desert to On, which was spelled "Vidal, CA), where it all went pyre, I feel compelled to speak up. I say ...

So what ?

Everybody has their own story. Parsons pushed the envelope, declared himself Belarion 8=3, while simultaneously calling alol Thelemites to a Holy War (a sign of aggression and the Black Brothers) ... Then his tenure ended in (another) bloazeof fire.

I admired, and admire, Parsons. But he fucked up in a big way. His essence got stolen and converted into a manifestation of The Black Lodge. This is my opinion - shall I have it notarized ?

 


   
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@shiva I do know the agape lodge schismed - don't they all? I do not know the details of why or how. 

As far as Set running the Aeon... I'm Ophidian-sympathetic. Nema and Grant's work, and those affiliated, is the most meaningful evolution of occultism around imo. But this is getting largely off-topic, these conversations for other threads. 

Incidentally, how do you block quote people? I think I'm doing it wrong. 

We see breakthroughs here and there, in gender or sex or combinations thereof, but as far as I can tell, the ladies in charge presently are not under the dominion of Ra-Hoor or Maat. @shiva

I frankly do not know what you mean. Again, a bit off topic. 

The rest of your post really isn't informing any serious answers to my question or that of this thread. I do not know that you were there and it is difficult to take your reply seriously. 

 

93,

Iris

 


   
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(@katrice)
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Posted by: @shiva

Clarity? Yeah, Set ran the Aeon of Osiris, is still in charge out there as far as I can tell, hidden behind the Big Brothers, and ladies are not first in that realm

 

Please remember that Set was not always regarded as Egyptian Satan, and was depicted as defending Ra's barque against Apep, among other things.  Also remember that some pharaohs incorporated his name in to theirs, which seems an odd things to do with the name of a god of evil. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

as far as I can tell, the ladies in charge presently are not under the dominion of Ra-Hoor or Maat.

 

I may want clarification for this part.

 

 


   
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Posted by: @katrice

Please remember that Set was not always regarded as Egyptian Satan, and was depicted as defending Ra's barque against Apep, among other things. 

Yes.  And according to the beliefs of the Ordo Typhonians and the writings of Kenneth Grant (or maybe that should be the other way around) Set was/is really quite wonderful and one's 'Secret Self' - a direct analogue of Hoor-paar-kraat in the same way that Horus is representative and stands for Ra-Hoor-Khuit.  (Their symbiosis therefore apparently being Heru-ra-ha, although I cannot recall for certain that K.G. states it directly as such).

Posted by: @katrice

Also remember that some pharaohs incorporated his name in to theirs, which seems an odd things to do with the name of a god of evil. 

I remember! And there are some representational ancient pictures of a composite figure of Set-Horus, joined together quite amicably down the middle - peacefully, if you please.  Joined together equally and opposite, like the sun in daylight taken with the sun experienced at night and definitely not quite "evil" in the simplistic moralistic sense which the word is medlodramatically used today, and especially as employed with a 'knee jerk reaction' in and by the media.

Posted by: @katrice

I may want clarification for this part.

Yes, who might these other "ladies" be who, it seems, are "in charge"?  I can only think of Isis (or Nuit) and Nepthys as senior dames.  But why should they [not} be under the thumb "dominion" of Ra Hoor and Maat?  For starters, Maat was herself a "ladie" and the daughter of Ra [in his secret name of Hoor initiating] to boot.  She was also Mrs. Thoth (i.e. married to Tahuti) as well. 

It seemed to have very close family relations bordering upon the incestuous, did the pantheon of the Ancient Egyptians.

With apologies for having nothing to say (yet) on the OT,

NormaN Joy Conquest   


   
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Posted by: @iris

I do know the agape lodge schismed - don't they all? I do not know the details of why or how. 

ElRon talked Jack into selling the Lodge and investing the proceeds with him in his yacht-selling biz. Parsons did this. ElRon then took the money, the girl, and departed forever without further  contact.

Parsons then gave rocket secrets to Israel (our ally), thinking it was okay, but the US Gov thought different and pulled his security clearance. He and Cameron were packing for a cover story of going to Mexico to test rockets. In reality, they had tickets from Mexico to Israel (as his usefulness was washed up in the USA).

Then his garage exploded from Fulminate of Mercury that "he dropped." He lived a few hours more. Please draw your own conclusions about said explosion.

Because of the "Sex Crime Bust" by the Pasadena PD, and the redistribution of Jack Parsons, Sturnus closed the Order "for ten years." At the end of ten years, he did nor re-open it. Instead, he died not long after the ten-mark, and Frater Aquarius performed the first initiation in 13 years five days later, without knowing that Germer had died. That initiate was my guru. We raised a lot of Hell.

Posted by: @iris

Ophidian-sympathetic. Nema and Grant's work

To keep it short, in my work Set is the representative of the unconscious, as Horus is the conscious. These have been known to fight ... in legends and in our beings.

Posted by: @iris

... it is difficult to take your reply seriously. 

Now you are being to catch the drift. I don't think AC mentioned Zen, but he did get into Tao Teh, so my style might be a bit confusing, sometimes, maybe always, No not always.

Posted by: @katrice

Please remember that Set was not always regarded as Egyptian Satan, and was depicted as defending Ra's barque against Apep, among other things.

No need to remember that - I put it in the Tuat video, The Sarcophagus of Nun video, and a chapter in a book. Not always" implies earlier times. I am referring to the recently passing-on Aeon. Horus is not in charge right now.  Osiris is dead. So who really ran the last Aeon of the slave gods (Anunnaki, the slave gods, by the way), which is hanging on with full claws right now ? I will tell you who. Set is just a metaphor for the devil or source of problems. The representatives of the slain god can be found in Rome, with various offshoots and schisms spreading out planet-wide, ending in tendrils of missionaries in jungles and wastelands. They ran the (western) world as governors for the better part of the Aeon, and they still exert influence, though I hear it is fading. The Pope is all on board for The Great reset - please draw your own conclusions.

They had a parallel run in China, not to leave the Easterners out. I have no idea what runs took place in Africa, or either of the Americas, but the Christian Conquistadoes put an end to that nonsense in Mexico, where the natives had all that gold without really realizing its value.

Diverting back to the original topic, nobody has answered this resurrected thread's question, and when the well runs dry the cattle tend to mill around and poop. I* have no idea of the location of the Babalon Working, but I have read tons of material (okay, maybe a ream) of Agape Lodge Records and Letters and Articles, and I hold a mental impression of a temple in what was possibly a dining room. This impression appears to be impressed by reading said material and not by psychic powers or seances.

 


   
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Posted by: @shiva

ElRon talked Jack into selling the Lodge and investing the proceeds with him in his yacht-selling biz. Parsons did this. ElRon then took the money, the girl, and departed forever without further  contact.

It would have been good to have heard Elron's side of the story.  Not that I am acting as an apologist for his actions in any way, but... you know, one shouldn't condemn anybody without first considering and giving due weight to their way of looking at things, along with any possibly relevant missing information.  In some ways I feel that some of his intentions (not necessarily in this example, but not excluding it either) might have been misunderstood and that he might have been something of a 'rascally guru' in the same way as well as Uncle Al, but this is not the thread to go into him or this further..
 
Posted by: @shiva

Parsons then gave rocket secrets to Israel (our ally), thinking it was okay, but the US Gov thought different and pulled his security clearance. He and Cameron were packing for a cover story of going to Mexico to test rockets. In reality, they had tickets from Mexico to Israel (as his usefulness was washed up in the USA).

Can you be saying Parsons was a Zionist shill and [double] agent, willing witting or not, of the Deep State?  Oh no - another illusion shattered!?
Posted by: @shiva

Then his garage exploded from Fulminate of Mercury that "he dropped."

Clumsy butterfingers.... The mark of an absolute bungling amateur! (except he wasn't)
 
Posted by: @shiva

Please draw your own conclusions about said explosion.

Is there a show of hands anywhere for "Coincidance"?
 

Posted by: @shiva

in my work Set is the representative of the unconscious, as Horus is the conscious. These have been known to fight ... in legends and in our beings.

Posted by: @shiva

Set is just a metaphor for the devil or source of problems.

So is the implication that the unconscious is somehow 'evil' and anyway to be held responsible for all our problems ? Seems somewhat suggestive of Freud  from way back, if so..

Set, and even old Stan, was/is not into child murder or sacrifice to my knowledge (wasn't that down to the demon Moloch?).  It has really become tiresome that although Stan was originally meant to have been a li'l ol' tempter back in the Book of Job, nonetheless has transmogrified of late into the embodiment of something like a psychotic, mentally deranged degenerate depraved sociopath..Is there any known 'true' god[-dess] of (or, manifesting) such questionable qualities - and after all didn't Crowley state somewhere that true divinities were meant to be the personiifcations of some aspect of (positive) perfection - and not of unbalanced mad[wo]men (as for example suggested by Michael Moorcock's "The Mad God's Amulet", perhaps)?
 
Posted by: @shiva

Sturnus closed the Order "for ten years." At the end of ten years, he did nor re-open it. Instead, he died not long after the ten-mark, and Frater Aquarius performed the first initiation in 13 years five days later, without knowing that Germer had died.

Shouldn't this have constituted an act of insubordination, if not outright mutiny, going against his sworn oaths of loyalty and punishable by the evocation of Apophis and death expulsion from the holy order (if not disembowelment & no more a man)?  Did the thought of this bother him at all, even one iota?  Why/how could/should he then have expected loyalty in return?

Posted by: @shiva

I am referring to the recently passing-on Aeon. Horus is not in charge right now.  Osiris is dead. So who really ran the last Aeon of the slave gods (Anunnaki, the slave gods, by the way), [...] The Pope is all on board for The Great reset - please draw your own conclusions.

Would you consider that this here is, in addition to being your opinion beliefI, an example of current conspiracy theory hypothesis?
 
Posted by: @shiva

Diverting back to the original topic, nobody has answered this resurrected thread's question, and when the well runs dry the cattle tend to mill around and poop.

And not to mention, maybe moo (=mutter) their various sundry complaints and grievances and grouses.
 
Apparently still not mentioning anything yet myself about the location of the Babalon working,
Z Joy

   
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Elron's side of the story. 

His story is about founding Science-toll-ogy and then using a considerable percentage of its muscle to bury or stiifle any stories that resemble my brief abstract. He has not been condemned - he has been exposed.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Can you be saying Parsons was a Zionist shill and [double] agent, willing witting or not, of the Deep State?  Oh no - another illusion shattered!?

No, Net-neti, not at all. How can things get so twisted in interpretation? I merely told how Jack decided to go where he was appreciated. I saw or heard no Zionism, although the Deeper State might have had something to do with his Fulminate. Everything I have reported about Jack/Israel is more fully exposed by Hymenaeus B in his Foreword to Jack's Freedom is a Two-edged Sword.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

So is the implication that the unconscious is somehow 'evil' and anyway to be held responsible for all our problems ?

This is how people view it when they want to NOT take personal responsibility, and they need someone else to blame. They are "close" in their excuse-making, for the "Devil" is none other than our very own inner Id.  The inconscious drives of the Id are held to be evil by society, so all kids get raised to be "good," and not evil.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Set, and even old Stan, was/is not into child murder

In the legends, Set did everything he could to murder the child Horus. He also murdered Daddy. Pharaoh did what he could to murder Moses. It's part of the tradition. Material plane rulers always try to murder the upcoming spiritual.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Shouldn't this have constituted an act of insubordination

But Germer was dead. The "position" changed to a new vehicle right quick ... just like it did when Aquarius himself died.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

mutiny, going against his sworn oaths of loyalty and punishable by the evocation of Apophis and death expulsion from the holy order (if not disembowelment & no more a man)?  Did the thought of this bother him at all, even one iota?  Why/how could/should he then have expected loyalty in return?

It is amusing how fast you can make shit up by evoking the holy language of the black order for whom I hold up my median digit in dalute. Give everybody a break, Jamie. Certain orgs are sources of pestilence, one-upmanship, and soap opera dramas. Let's rent a bulldozer and push the whole mess off a steep cliff on the Caliph coast - leaving just simple lines where nobody knows nobody but the guide ahead and the porter behind.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Would you consider that this here is, in addition to being your opinion belief, an example of current conspiracy theory hypothesis?

I inherited my opinion/belief from the Templar tradition ... and so did you. No, not a theory - the Pope is, by his own words, on board for the Reset, as is your King. "Disclosure" of what is happening will not be made by the authorities. It is, however, being made by individuals who step forth and say, "This is what we're going to do." Si8mple. No interpretation or belief system required. They say it. It begins to happen.

The better part of Wisdom better become employed by all individuals, because, you know, their iindividuality (Horus) is approaching the block.

 


   
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Posted by: @shiva

He has not been condemned - he has been exposed.

I rather like the title of Elton Elron's biography "Bare-Faced Messiah", which pretty much sums (some aspects of) it up
 
Posted by: @shiva

No, Net-neti, not at all. How can things get so twisted in interpretation?

In other words: Not on your Nellie.  OK.  I was "just asking" in order to possibly discount the probability, not actually "interpreting" it in that fashion.
 
Posted by: @shiva

[...] I saw or heard no Zionism,

Thank you for clarifying that and also ruling it out. (Jack can now be placed back on his pedestal again and the illusion reinstated...)
 
Posted by: @shiva

"Devil" is none other than our very own inner Id. 

I agree. (far more so than I disagree. In fact I mentioned it as much in my essay "Black and Blue Magick". I think I also said he was like a cartoon.)
Although I'm not sure that would be quite the same thing as formulaically stating: Set=Id.
 
Posted by: @shiva

In the legends, Set did everything he could to murder the child Horus.

I was speaking more generally, rather than specifically (=mythologically) here.  Perhaps I meant more to say in the context of Stan that he wasn't intended to originally be the personification of an adrenochrome fiend?
 
Posted by: @shiva

But Germer was dead. The "position" changed to a new vehicle right quick

But we have already established that Aquarius did not know that at the time, so there wasn't really that excuse for his actions, and the position only changed to "a new vehicle" because he made a point of making himself into it.
 
Posted by: @shiva

Give everybody a break, Jamie.

It's not that I want to give your guru-once-removed (?) a hard time over it, really I don't, as he seemed to have been attitudinally ok from what I can tell, but nevertheless he took it upon himself to oust Saturnus out of the way whilst still living, and therefore involving that particular karma for him & his org.  And furthermore, where was Ray Burlingame ever documented as a prospective heir-apparent anyway?.
 
Posted by: @shiva

The better part of Wisdom better become employed by all individuals, because, you know, their iindividuality (Horus) is approaching the block.

Can you possibly please explain this a bit further as I am not sure I have your intended meaning clear?
 
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

(Jack can now be placed back on his pedestal again and the illusion reinstated...)

Jack got knocked off the pedastalia and the planet not long after the jump-claimed 8=3 and called for a holy war, an act of aggression - his birthwords of a Magister T? - which is the identifier of a Black Brother of the L-hand P.'.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Although I'm not sure that would be quite the same thing as formulaically stating: Set=Id.

In the Egyptian pantheon, Set is the closest match. Other folks might think  Hades or Lucifer or Pluto (add all the dread names). Since they are all made up names that refer to the point/core at Kether, and which all are titles laid upon the unknowable Hadit, and since the Id, our own personal Beast, is involved in the final liberation, I have adopted a certain philosophy ...

I wonder why the "location" of any working is important? It would be of great interest if a location were one of those rare "energy places." Jack did a lot of work up in the wild and uninhabited Devil's Gate canyon. We have one here just like it, but it's called Diablo (Devil) Canyon or something like that.

Some of the lunatic new-age fringe are stating that Crowley opened a "portal" on Long Island, NY (Montauk), and that Parsons opened a "portal" in Hell's Gate, and as a result all this evil astral stuff is leaking into 3D and causing our present inequilibriums.

So, yeah, locations can be important ... it depends on which planes one is trying to not confuse.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

But we have already established that Aquarius did not know that at the time

Um, that is the crux of the transfer. Ann obvious intuitive act of taking the reins (reigns) and moving forward. This stuff does not take place on the physical plane with continuity of "knowing what's going on," and the realization of what took place comes after. This is a common magical phenomenon for folks who are vehicles for the "officer" positions that use human vehicles to cause change.

When a child is born, it doesn't matter if its parents were married ... except in the eyes of onlookers who might be prudes. A "clandestine" Order, organized an founded under the consensual reality of Agape Lodge (where IXs could found orders and initiate others) - it was only after Hymen B t5ook over that Solar Lodge was disowned. Seckl;er and McM both knew Solar was legit, and Seckler at least said so. She also referred to us as "The Brayton Gang."

So, even as a bastard child gets around to becoming a mature unit in society, Solar was. Paper-trail chasing and who knew what is immaterial in my grok. It was. 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

nevertheless he took it upon himself to oust Saturnus out of the way whilst still living, and therefore involving that particular karma for him & his org.

Huh? Let me rephrase that for you. On a particular day in '62. Aquarius was talking to Jean Brayton. He suddenly broke off and said, "That's it. You're getting initiated. Come here in the evening of (five days) later ... Neti ... this will be too long. Please excuse me for a copy and paste ... Please excuse off-Babalon-location topic - to keep it within "location," the Aquarius part was in Long Beach, the other stuff up in L.A. ...

[begin official story]

"A certain magnetism brought her back to visit with him time and time again, and she listened with great interest as Aquarius told her of his relationship with Aleister Crowley, his initiation into Crowley’s occult fraternity, the Ordo Templi Orientis, and his subsequent esoteric adventures. Capricornus was fascinated by the subject of initiation and finally asked Aquarius to initiate her into the Order, but he refused. He explained that the Order had been closed by its current chief, Karl Germer (Frater Saturnus) and even though many members wanted to recommence activities, Saturnus had made it clear that he was not interested in taking on any new students.

Then, on the evening of Thursday, October 25, 1962, Aquarius said to Capricornus, "It’s time for you to be initiated! Come here next Tuesday at eight in the evening!"

Milton S. Basham and his wife, who had also been members of Agape Lodge in Pasadena, and who had moved to Prescott, Arizona, came to Long Beach for the ceremony.

Capricornus appeared at the appointed time and Aquarius assumed the role of Saladin, the Initiating Officer, assisted by Soror Venus and Milton Basham.

That evening, Capricornus received the 0° [Minerval] and the I° initiations.

Afterward, Aquarius conferred the II° upon Basham and his wife, and everyone went home. 1

What makes this tale particularly interesting is that on that very Thursday when Aquarius finally relented and agreed to perform the initiation, and quite unknown to him and all the others involved, Frater Saturnus "took his Seat in the East" (that is, he had died, in Order parlance).

The link had been passed to Aquarius in the spirit, so to speak, yet this was without confirmation in the material world. That is, there was no Charter, or any written authorization, or tangible permission. Frater Aquarius definitely did not have a note from his parents.

Of course, we all know that the Order was essentially "dead in the water," and that there was no longer anyone available to sign their name to such written permission.

The rationale for the activities of Aquarius was, and still is, endlessly debated under various lights.

However, the effect of his actions would result in the formation of "Solar Lodge," an expansive, secret, initiatory Order that was first quietly kindled and then blazed brighter and brighter over a period of just ten years.

Solar Lodge's initial impulse occurred when Frater Aquarius administered Capricornus' first initiatory rite.

The actual title, Solar Lodge, was coined by myself and adopted in 1965 when Capricornus began initiating candidates, and its activities were essentially terminated in 1972 when it stopped admitting candidates for initiation.”

1 This is the way events transpired according to Capricornus. Mildred Burlingame later suggested that it was she, and not Ray (Frater Aquarius) who had given Capricornus her Minerval initiation. It is probable that Mildred administered the rite under Aquarius' supervision.

[END OFFICIAL QUOTE] - extracted from Inside Solar Lodge

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Can you possibly please explain this a bit further as I am not sure I have your intended meaning clear?

I am referring to The New World Order being implemented by a group of inherited wealthees and gov agents and the UN (the resolution was signed in '73, I think). Youn may expect the next wave of individuality-reduction coming soon. It has already subtly begun. There bis no theory involved. "They" have steppeed forward and openly stated what the Great reset of 2030 will bring. Have you read their "Thesis?"

But this is enough. Again, I attempt to re-train, again, the thread by stating that my long publicized date of 2029, as the tipping point of the transition period of Aeons, is still a piece of the ante on the table.

That date was determined here in no-town, NM (we are outside any city limitations or limits), but originally conceived in San Diego, which is where I moved from Lost Angeles, which is the urb of the suburb, Pasadena, where I once lived only a few blocks from the little hill upon which Agape Lodge once dominated the local environment.

With all this location stuff, and energy vortexes too, plus AC and Belarion opening portals, I will now ask a question of this thread, in general, which is, Why does the location of the Babalon working hold any particular interest ?

 


   
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Posted by: @shiva

With all this location stuff, and energy vortexes too, plus AC and Belarion opening portals, I will now ask a question of this thread, in general, which is, Why does the location of the Babalon working hold any particular interest ?

This is only my five cents, but I would guess that real factual verifiable history still matters and is an added bonus in things otherwise taken "by faith" only. Even if the outcome or result of stuff like this is there before our eyes, I guess I am not alone in saying it still would be interesting where exactly the Cairo Working happened, if AC was on the "Isis" or on the "Osiris", if the paper of Liber L was available in April 1904 or not etc. etc. It might not really matter, but if these things could be "established", it would be an added bonus for the day-to-day brain which is what we sometimes have to deal with.

 


   
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

I would guess that real factual verifiable history still matters and is an added bonus in things otherwise taken "by faith" only.

Yeah. It's a human trait, stronger in some, weaker in others. But if a story is hot, then everybody wants to know where, when, who, how much ?  In this particular resurrection, the question was asked 13 years ago. I haven't seen an solid answer yet.

 


   
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Posted by: @shiva

Jack got knocked off the pedastalia and the planet not long after the jump-claimed 8=3 and called for a holy war, an act of aggression - his birthwords of a Magister T? - which is the identifier of a Black Brother of the L-hand P.'.

I'll leave it for his more dedicated Lashtal fanboy/girls (than myself) to spring to a spirited defence here (of which previous evidence has shown there are several such posters, if apathy hasn't now overcome them)
 
Posted by: @shiva

Some of the lunatic new-age fringe are stating that Crowley opened a "portal" on Long Island, NY (Montauk), and that Parsons opened a "portal" in Hell's Gate, and as a result all this evil astral stuff is leaking into 3D and causing our present inequilibriums.

If only we were that powerful!  I have yet to come across ritual producing such overwhelmingly evident and incontrovertible physical results - the "Harry Potter" flick-of-a-wand results school of magic as it were...
 
Posted by: @shiva

Seckler and McM both knew Solar was legit, and Seckler at least said so. She also referred to us as "The Brayton Gang."

Shades of Ma Barker there? <NB insert another {different} appropriate smiley emotikon in here>
 
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

nevertheless he took it upon himself to oust Saturnus out of the way whilst still living, and therefore involving that particular karma for him & his org.

By 'oust' I was meaning that he took the initiating duties of the lineal descendant and representative of Baphomet: the Grand Master of the Order and Lodge upon himself without trying to have it knowingly (legitimately) passed on to him, I suppose. I'm making (was making) no judgement here, just speculating (as usual).
And as for karma, well I think we all know what that means.
 
Posted by: @shiva

It was.

Posted by: @shiva

Huh? Let me rephrase that for you. [...]

Posted by: @shiva

The link had been passed to Aquarius in the spirit, so to speak, yet this was without confirmation in the material world.

You make a good case for your "defence" here, and I grok it.  Against it, there were other viable contenders who were around at the time - Grady of course, but also Gabriel Montenegro I think - but Ray B. does indeed seem to have in Crowley's Bunyan paraphrase "seized the sword" (for those who can grabbit) first.  

Solar Lodge had a really bad rep (or was it rap?) in the olden days (i.e. pre your revision of events in "Inside Solar Lodge"*) so it's good there's an alternative viewpoint being able to get expressed, while there are still people alive who were around then.  Who am (who wasn't/weren't) I to say nay then?
 
(* Incidentally I actually ordered it together with The Master Codex as it was near the top of my to do list.  I haven't read it yet - that's rather further down to do.)
 
Posted by: @shiva

There is no theory involved. [...] Have you read their "Thesis?"

So a thesis does/can not contain theoretical [principles] then?
 
Posted by: @shiva

my long publicized date of 2029, as the tipping point of the transition period of Aeons, is still a piece of the ante on the table.

Ever since the one before, circa the Winter solstice, 2012.  And the one before that, that was around 2005 I believe.  Before that, we can probably discount the Y2K flak which was wholly man-made, But then we have the Harmonic Convergence of '87, and before that something else no doubt.  Et cetera, et cetera (et cetera).  All of these things never quite happened in the way they were forecast predicted prophesied, and the same will probably no doubt happen again.  As I keep repeating from before, this is wholly because "there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise." (AL 2:32)
 
Posted by: @shiva

With all this location stuff, and energy vortexes too, plus AC and Belarion opening portals, I will now ask a question of this thread, in general, which is, Why does the location of the Babalon working hold any particular interest ?

Posted by: @shiva

I wonder why the "location" of any working is important? It would be of great interest if a location were one of those rare "energy places."

It's presumably because a location holds a residual charge of the energy once manifested there which the 'sensitives' (or hopeful wannabe sensitives) are looking to tap into for their own purposes and/or to duplicate what once went before.  I believe Kenneth Grant had the phrase "Power Zones" for them - perhaps one of the 'Typhonians' here could elaborate further?

N JJoy


   
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I have yet to come across ritual producing such overwhelmingly evident and incontrovertible physical results

Me, two.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Shades of Ma Barker there?

No, that "term" was coined (?) by a semi-disgruntled member who referred to the "Ma Brayton Gang," even though Ma was not present at the time - in which case, presence would probably have stifled the remark.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

By 'oust' I was meaning that he took the initiating duties of the lineal descendant and representative of Baphomet: the Grand Master of the Order and Lodge upon himself without trying to have it knowingly (legitimately) passed on to him, I suppose.

You now suppose correctly. Hymen B took me to task, personally, with this. I then admitted that it was true that there was no written note from any Grand Master, because they were all dead. Grant was alive and armed with the same IX as Aquarius, but we didn't know that, and besides, we were pushing The Constitution (which I now view as a doc of deliberate dictatorship), while he was offering a design-it-yourself version.

I admitted, to him, and in the Intro to Behind the Veil, and on the website, that Solar Lodge was clandestine. That it was the only known example of OTO initiations combined with the A.'.A.'. Tasks of the Grades, and it worked quite well ... until it didn't, due to guru-intervention in direction-messages that were ignored.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

So a thesis does/can not contain theoretical [principles] then?

The Thesis outlines exactly what we are seeing in the daylee news - not the wars.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Ever since the one before, circa the Winter solstice, 2012.  And the one before that, that was around 2005 I believe. 

I never used the quaint phrase "tipping point" before, except in reference to the critical balance point (Maat) in the transition between Aeons. I don't remember issuing edicts about 2005, but it was a major turning point in my vehicle's direction and capacities. 2012 came and went without a whisper, except that it was another major point for me personally. It is also featured in a concurrently-running thread, with dates and characteristics.

I discounted Harmonic Convergence ('87),  Timeshift ('92), Pole-Shift (2201), Mayan Terminus (2012), after the fact because nothing happened. And I agree with your skepticism. However, things happen on other planes and then the get around to manifesting on paper, in stone, or in consciousness.

The magnetosphere is now failing. The official scientists say this is common preceding a polar shift. The unofficial scientists say the switch has already occurred in the core. We are waiting for emergence.

Elsewhere on these threads I discussed my discounture of all this stuff, on a certain level. But I am able to slip into mentat mode and play with numbers and dates. Mostly, everything we are discussing here is old stuff and I certainly don't stumble through life using this stuff as a crutch.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

we can probably discount the Y2K flak

2K was a real digital crisis. It had no effect upon anything as they fixed it first.  I think it should all be discounted. I note some minor exceptions ...

1. My own 2029 vs 2030, which is still on the table.

2. Raving about the Aeon of Maat are not to be discounted, and that stuff has come up quite a bit lately. 2012 has been mentioned. I wrote a whole chapter about what happened in 2012 - from a different angle, but I concur.

3. Mr Staley offers insights into viewing the Aeons as indivi8dual stages of insight, not related to dates. I concur.

What cannot be discounted is the magnetosphere, the massive solar eruptions of only 18 hours ago, and the potential polar shift that will be the true tipping point, regardless of my kindergarten-type divination of 2029.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

It's presumably because a location holds a residual charge of the energy once manifested there which the 'sensitives' (or hopeful wannabe sensitives) are looking to tap into for their own purposes and/or to duplicate what once went before. 

Yeah, that would be one approach. It is noteworthy that Boleskine burned, Cefalu crumbled, and Al-Kahira, once the center of semi-western civilization has been called "the anus of the world."  Yet tourists still flock there to see the Pyre-amids.

There is a tendency for places used for High Magick to be more rapidly degraded after the circle is closed. This is what they are looking for?

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I believe Kenneth Grant had the phrase "Power Zones"

I am a fan of energy vortices and power zones ... especially of the natural variety. They are rare, but one is nearby everywhere. We lived inside the influence of one - it's only 2 miles away. On a good day, it's circle is 50 miles in radius.

 


   
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Posted by: @shiva

The magnetosphere is now failing. The official scientists say this is common preceding a polar shift. The unofficial scientists say the switch has already occurred in the core. We are waiting for emergence.

Posted by: @shiva

What cannot be discounted is the magnetosphere, the massive solar eruptions of only 18 hours ago, and the potential polar shift that will be the true tipping point

I mentioned this back in 1990 and it was subsequently published in the Skoob Esoterica Anthology Vol.1 although because my theories seemed just a bit too "wacko" at the time and I didn't receive much encouragement from my peers (aside from Gerald Suster and Chris Johnson) I chickened out a bit and put "might have been" down instead of "were" as I might otherwise have done [now]:

The major evolutionary quantum leaps, such as humanity’s development from the apes, the emergence of civilisation, etc – as well as the death of the dinosaurs – might have been attributable to the mutative effects of a sudden large influx of cosmic rays, which are normally shielded from us by our sentient terrestrial magnetosphere, and the movement of the solar wind coming in from Sol/ Ra

Later I have come to think that rather than being 'cosmic' rays they might come more directly from the sun after all.  Had I known I was more on the right track than I thought as was indicated afterwards I would have included a lot more more down at the time not only including the coronal mass plasma eruptions and the polar reversal - which is well overdue past its predicted date of forecast - but in addition the organic gestation of a global state of gestalt self-awareness (as termed "N'aton" by Soror Andahadna; the more positive analogue of a digital AI/Deep State tyrannical enslavement) and itself 'fired up' into consciousness by the '100th Monkey' effect, together with a suspicion that neutrinos may have a bigger part to play in proceedings than were previously conceived.

To employ the language used in a parallel thread: it seems as if we may both here in effect be referring to the same or similar phenomenon (instead of a book) but coming at it from two different angles

N Joy


   
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Later I have come to think that rather than being 'cosmic' rays they might come more directly from the sun after all.

Our main problem (or liberation) comes in from the Solar plasma. This is directly traceable through the gov (NOAA - Natl Weather) or SpaceWeather.com. But every now and then, a burst or wave or beam comes in from an unknown "location" (tryin' to stay on-topic). This scrambles everyone to get searchin' for the source.

The last one (of this type) was 2-3 yrs ago. It was traced to a neutron star that is "located" near our Galactic Center.

Your (hypo)thesis was correct, your thesis of solar/cosmic gets you promoted to adjutant philosopher of macrocosmic physics. I say "macro." Forget the man is microscosm for a moment. Let use imagine that our 3D Earth World Matrix Home is the micro. We can adjust things in this micro. We can adjust (local) temperature, direction, sometimes height if we have a plane or a balloon, or a rock-it..

"Macro," in this case, is one level up in the cosmic hologram, which is Solar. We get bathed, regularly, with streams of plasma from Solar eruptions (the auroras are one result). We cannot adjust that. We cannot close our gaping magnetosphere, or conrtrol Sol from throwing high-frequency fire.

The scientists admit that a weaked magnetosphere is a (one) sign of a polar switch. They assure us that this is magnetic in nature and does not necessarily include the tipping over of the axis with continents slipping around (mass devastation).

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

more positive analogue of a digital AI/Deep State tyrannical enslavement

One level up from my daily awareness while engaged in chopping water, says this ...

Deep State Enslavement is currently a potential on the radar screen because we (everybody, trees, bees) are approaching initiation on a grand scale - as presented by clocking the sun-spurts. "Initiation i8s a series of controlled energy impacts." (Bailey).  No Shinola. Macro is dosing out intermittent streams, in increasingly out-of-the-normal cycles, of frequencies higher than usual. This is rising on the planes for the whole matrix ... and for individual consciousness.

So, who pops up on approach to the high-frequency portal? The Dweller on the Threshold, also known as The Shadow, or even The Deep State when considered from a wider angle of humanity.

I don't use "deep state" much in my rhetoruc. You know, for years, I have typed The Black Lodge.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

the same or similar phenomenon

Yea - sme phenomenon - now we (you) have to interprete it as a dealing of God ... etc. I will spare you that by saying "Yes we are describing the same thing in somewhat different emblems and sigils ... because I started it, and you fed it back in other vectors, saying the same thing, which I immediately am feeding back to you in the affirmative. You may continue the cycle, if you will, out here in barely "location" topic, so I will turn towards Parsons or Babalon.

Certain members of Solar Lodge undertook self-propelled missions to meet folks like Regardie, Culling and ...

One night they came exited, saying, "We met a woman called Cameron and she used to be the priestess at Agape Lodge ...  etc."  Nobody, including me, had ever hear the name before.

 


   
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i always tell people it's black rock city, home of burning man. i know it's not the mojave

This'n is a self-confessed maker-upper, who is illustrating how religions begin, or are spun off center with frivolities.

 


   
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

It's presumably because a location holds a residual charge of the energy once manifested there which the 'sensitives' (or hopeful wannabe sensitives) are looking to tap into for their own purposes and/or to duplicate what once went before

This may necessitate esoteric time-travel.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I believe Kenneth Grant had the phrase "Power Zones" for them - perhaps one of the 'Typhonians' here could elaborate further?

I've always been a fan of this term. I think a precise definition, however, may elude us as we may understand the idea from various viewpoints. There would seem to be unique locales in our physical universe which exemplify a concentration of peculiar, intense and concentrated energies or activity. That being said, I also think of Shiva's oft-used term "Hot Zone" which tends to imply such a center of activity as one with duration and which also may exist without a targeted longitude and latitude.

Now let's say a topic is introduced where you, I and Shiva really go at it for two weeks. Others fly in and out and it's all very exciting. And let's say this isn't just another "throw down" or some chess game where each move is a maneuver of one-upsmanship. It's a fiery heated passionate dialogue where lots of truly interesting and new perspective points are being brought burning to the fore. To read along is to be personally challenged or inspired or led to a new approach on one's path.

Well, that's a "Hot Zone" and, to the extent that it become a gateway for the influx of transformative power, a "Power Zone."

What I am describing here is an esoteric Power Zone, a station (of duration) on the Inner Plane(s). When we imagine Jack and the Babalon Working, any physical locale (dining room or desert) must be a site for this Inner Plane dynamic. The Khabs is in the Khu.

Those who chase after exoteric relics (including timespace geo-targets) in hope of tapping the Inner Plane Action may find that "the energy has left the wine." I'm not saying that there are not "occult residuals"-but, ultimately, these will be understood in relation to AL 1: 8-9.

All of this makes me think of the Nazis in "Raiders of the Lost Ark." They are chasing after the Power Objects but they don't have what it takes to HANDLE the Power Objects. One doesn't just "get the Spear of Destiny" and suddenly own the world. The situation is more like the "Sword in the Stone." It's not about the right person but the right state of being which can unlock the door. The right state of being brings forward the "right person" (who becomes a component in a "Power Zone").

These can be intentionally constructed, also. One's altar space can become a Power Zone, fed, built-up, developed, functioning as a Beacon. But the essential component is the human consciousness-and that alone can make for the Zone. I feel that at a certain point, every magician becomes a PZ...and this is implicit in the statement that "Every Man and Every Woman is a Star."

Black Sabbath had a song about this called "The Wizard."

 


   
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Some will argue Babalon working happened in....Babalon...


   
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Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

in....Babalon...

Babylon is a place where there this <could be true. There is no "location" named Babalon," unless you refer to the interior of her highness, which I suppose you did, but it leads, not off-topic, bu to off-reflected inner vectors. I will now try to find the 3-digit number for emergency calls to the psych-ward.


   
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Posted by: @shiva

His story is about founding Science-toll-ogy and then using a considerable percentage of its muscle to bury or stiifle any stories that resemble my brief abstract. He has not been condemned - he has been exposed.

Besides Bare Faced Messiah, I'd also recommend A Piece of the Blue Sky.

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Set=Id.

He's a more complex figure than that. 

 

Posted by: @shiva

Other folks might think  Hades or Lucifer or Pluto

 

 

And Hades/Pluto was never Greek Satan, he was an active ally and family member of the Olympian pantheon, he was just the one who got stuck presiding over the Underworld.

 

Posted by: @shiva

Some of the lunatic new-age fringe are stating that Crowley opened a "portal" on Long Island, NY (Montauk),

 

Nichols and Moon's books.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I'll leave it for his more dedicated Lashtal fanboy/girls (than myself) to spring to a spirited defence here (

 

I'm a Jack fangirl but I have to admit he got carried away by zeal and made some increasingly bad decisions as he went on. 

 

 

 

 


   
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Posted by: @katrice

Nichols and Moon's books.

Which books?

Posted by: @katrice

I'm a Jack fangirl but I have to admit he got carried away by zeal and made some increasingly bad decisions as he went on. 

Understatement of the post!


   
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Posted by: @damien

Which books?

The Montauk Project, Montauk Revisited, and Pyramids of Montauk.  They also tie Amado Crowley in to their story.

 

Posted by: @damien

Understatement of the post!

I was trying to be nice. 😉   I find his work intriguing and inspiring, but try to be realistic about him.


   
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Posted by: @katrice

I was trying to be nice.

What's the not nice version of your sentiment?


   
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Posted by: @katrice

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Set=Id.

@katrice: He's a more complex figure than that. 

I presume you'e agreeing with me here katrice as the reference I stated in full was:

Although I'm not sure that would be quite the same thing as formulaically stating: Set=Id 

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

It's presumably because a location holds a residual charge of the energy once manifested there which the 'sensitives' (or hopeful wannabe sensitives) are looking to tap into for their own purposes and/or to duplicate what once went before

@kidneyhawk: This may necessitate esoteric time-travel.

Firstly, Kyle - how do you distinguish between 'exoteric' and 'esoteric' time travel?

Also, how could you prove to yourself let alone anyone else, you had really travelled (as opposed to exercised you creative imagination or wish-fulfilment?)
 
And, again above, what would "necessitate" this in terms of being able to tap into the original energy charge in question? How is time travel possible as it goes against all known laws in physics (e.g. esp. "Time's Arrow" & the 2nd Law of thermodynamics)?
 
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Those who chase after exoteric relics (including timespace geo-targets) in hope of tapping the Inner Plane Action may find that "the energy has left the wine." I'm not saying that there are not "occult residuals"-but, ultimately, these will be understood in relation to AL 1: 8-9.

So this isn't the case with esoteric relics then?  Would there be such residuals if it was?

Posted by: @shiva

Forget the man is microscosm for a moment. Let use imagine that our 3D Earth World Matrix Home is the micro. We can adjust things in this micro. We can adjust (local) temperature, direction, sometimes height if we have a plane or a balloon, or a rock-it..

"Macro," in this case, is one level up in the cosmic hologram, which is Solar. We get bathed, regularly, with streams of plasma from Solar eruptions (the auroras are one result). We cannot adjust that. We cannot close our gaping magnetosphere, or conrtrol Sol from throwing high-frequency fire.

Would that include being able to control the magnetosphere in that case?  (It seems that as part of directed energy weather weaponry the ionosphere can be raised and lowered, creating earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes & other disruptions at a specified non-local distance). Being earthbound in our WMH (World Matrix Home/ =micro), in that case what do you see as the main reason for our (humanity) not being able to close the gaping "gap"?
 
It's always possible that the polar shift may take place with no more fuss than the er, transition in Y2K.  After all, it last hapened within the actul experiencce of early wo/man a couple of hundred thousand years ago, and we're here today.  it doesn't necessaily (for)bode widespread devastation, bt if it really does turn out to be widespread (at the other end of the pendulum swing) there probably won't be very much we can do about the matter either.
 
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

It's a fiery heated passionate dialogue where lots of truly interesting and new perspective points are being brought burning to the fore. To read along is to be personally challenged or inspired or led to a new approach on one's path.

Although it's not exactly bang on the OT It would be interesting to see more primates adding to the mix on this and seeing what we end up with. But fortunately adding a physical post is not necessarily the be-all - as long as they are able to get on and follow along the right track with their thoughts, the 'macro' or 'end-all' effect should still be indicative of progress (similr to making an imprint in the Akashic record, I conjecture).

Posted by: @shiva

I don't use "deep state" much in my rhetoruc. You know, for years, I have typed The Black Lodge.

I have only just started to follow (mainly what is) your lead here, Shiva; by putting "deep state" - I suppose I thought I was 'keeping up' with the Jones trend(s)... Nor did I use/have I used 'Black Lodge' very much earlier either- I rather think I plumped for the (literally) shadowy "Them" or "They"' instead.    Open Question: Who thinks I might have been acting a bit naff and/or coy with this? (and if so, please give me your preferred predilection).

'Resistance is useful',

‘и * joY 

   
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(@katrice)
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Posted by: @damien

What's the not nice version of your sentiment?

His zeal made him blind to too many things and the results of that led to his snapping and getting caught up in illusions that led to his self destruction.

 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I presume you'e agreeing with me here katrice as the reference I stated in full was:

I was just alluding to Set not always being Egyptian Satan and that it seems unfair to just go with that categorization for a god who defended the barque of Ra, had his own legitimate priesthood, and had pharaohs incorporate his name in to theirs.   Gods of evil in pantheons, not including demons, titans and their analogues, are pretty rare. 

 

 

 


   
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(@kidneyhawk)
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Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Firstly, Kyle - how do you distinguish between 'exoteric' and 'esoteric' time travel?

I knew you would ask this. 😉

In a nutshell, the former would be akin to physically traveling through time ala HG Wells. It would, as you note, 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

go against all known laws in physics (e.g. esp. "Time's Arrow" & the 2nd Law of thermodynamics)?

Conversely, the latter is what we could describe as an intrapsychic exploration which is NOT about thwarting 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

all known laws

but dealing with metaphysical maneuvers of an occult nature. 

Your challenge to this:

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

how could you prove to yourself let alone anyone else, you had really travelled (as opposed to exercised you creative imagination or wish-fulfilment?)

is apt. Just because I claim to "go back in time" to when AC and Leah were at Cefalu, for example, and  report on a previously unrecorded conversation doesn't mean it happened that way, right? Without access to the experience itself, you cannot be expected to accept my report as factual, unless I deliver some other evidence you can personally verify. This evokes the question of magical attainment, contact with spirits and so forth. There is a point where these things belong to a personal internal reality. Your "attainment" of "Samadhi"...how can you "demonstrate" that? 

Maybe you "entered it," maybe you didn't. How would I know?

Well, the Lotus Sutra says the Wisdom of the Buddhas is only shared between Buddhas. In other words, it takes one to know one. 

But I'm not personally satisfied with "my head trip is just as good as your head trip." So, we assemble ways to "test the Spirits to see if they be of God" (as AC quoted St. Paul in MTP). This can be done in various ways, some of which I am sure you are familiar with. Crowley was a fan of gematria and measuring stuff up against 777 in scrying (and TT is a form of this: one sets a "target" and goes in). When one brings back report and it is later confirmed by newly acquired "objective" (independent) knowledge, this tends to evoke those "Whoa....!" moments. Crowley gives us advice early on to KEEP THE RECORD and do NOT attribute objective validity to anything we are experiencing. I think of those people who kill and then say the voices in their heads told them to do it. I'm sorry the radio reception only picked up on that channel but why the hell would you OBEY???

I'll also add that just because we avoid attaching objective value to an event does not mean we altogether dismiss it. It's good to keep it in the "non attached/non-disinterested" category which Peter Carroll speaks of in Liber Null. 

Because the goal is not just to "time travel" but to achieve certain things. To get back to a locale when it WAS a "Hot Zone" and perhaps siphon some of that "heat." Etc.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

So this isn't the case with esoteric relics then?

One such relic was the book we now know as The Tibetan Book of the Dead. That was exhumed by a Time Traveling Tibetan Treasure Hunter named Karma Lingpa. The text seems to have held its "charge." 

I will be writing more on this theme for forthcoming book material but I'll say that Arthur Schopenhauer is of importance here. His Neo-Kantian view of the World as Will and Representation has powerful implications for the Time Travel Experience (which remains "Representative"). 

To conclude (for this post), I fully admit that I cannot persuade you of anything that belongs solely to my subjective experience. But I will suggest that this is true of ALL experience. What you present, you propose. Wittgenstein said the truth of any proposition depends upon the determinants we accept. 

In the Magical Universe, our determinants need not be 

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

all known laws in physics

and we may still get mileage out of them.

In the case of Jack Parsons, a little LARPing apparently changed the weather and drove a certain yacht to shore. 

From my Typhonian perspective, I've always appreciated that bit where Kenneth Grant states that he is not trying to "prove" anything. He is doing his thing and giving his work to those who will find in it value for their own development. 

Personally, I don't think the location of the Babalon Working is of any more practical interest than where Aiwass supposedly dictated AL. Do we really think the "Gods" are hanging about like low-level poltergeists, unable to move on, nothing more to do than haunt the muggles? 

But I am curious, Jamie...

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

how could you prove to yourself let alone anyone else

that there is any kind of verity in your many experiences that cannot be demonstrated to the strict requirements of the outward rationalist mind. 

How do you, personally, measure the magical or mystical experience in your own sphere? 

Looking forward to your reply and N-Joying our dialogue here,

KH 

     

 

 

 


   
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(@katrice)
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

How do you, personally, measure the magical or mystical experience in your own sphere? 

 

And we dip in to UPG ,SPG, and VPG.  

 

 


   
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(@kidneyhawk)
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Posted by: @katrice

And we dip in to UPG ,SPG, and VPG.  

Ultimately, it is all "UPG."

Even when I bring forth all the junk to support my "claim" (which is what AC did with "On The Reception"), WHO is judging and accepting the verification? And HOW SO? 

In many instances the UPG may bring more impact into Timespace than so called VPG. The vehicle of the former may be ART-while the vehicle of the latter may be...mere historicity or number noodling. It is all an aspect of the "World as Representation." Take it, leave it, deny it, believe it. YOU-and no other-will be arbiter. 

I would suggest that Thelema goes beyond the True/False dichotomy. This has to do with ENOUGH OF BECAUSE. And BEYOND BECAUSE, events still impact others. 

The question is one of how this all goes down-and how it serves or expresses WILL. 

This is not theoretical. It will color our experience from birth until we...y'know...drop some fulminate of mercury in a coffee can.

As one does.  

 


   
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herupakraath
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Ultimately, it is all "UPG."

If I could progress from UPG to VPG, is there a chance I could learn the meaning of SVP? Or will I simply be SOL, UTC, and WAP? 🙂 

Seriously, if your were to invoke the god Mercury, and you heard a voice speak the words A PATH at the climax of the invocation, and upon investigating the phrase with the Qabalah, realized the phrase has a Hebrew gematria of 482, as does the name MERCURY, would you consider that VPG?

 

 


   
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Seriously, if your were to invoke the god Mercury, and you heard a voice speak the words A PATH at the climax of the invocation, and upon investigating the phrase with the Qabalah, realized the phrase has a Hebrew gematria of 482, as does the name MERCURY, would you consider that VPG?

No. 


   
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(@katrice)
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

In many instances the UPG may bring more impact into Timespace than so called VPG.

I completely agree.  I think that sometimes the "U" in UPG gets interpreted as derogatory, when it just means that it's not verified in a material sense. UPG becomes a problem when its recipients insist that it's applicable to everyone else and/or somehow "true".  Personal Gnosis is exactly that, personal, and if it works for the recipient, it works for the recipient.

 

 

Posted by: @herupakraath

, is there a chance I could learn the meaning of SVP?

Shared Personal Gnosis. When previously unconnected people have similar gnostic experiences.

I'm sharing this on the QT so you won't be SOL and end up in a SNAFU. 😉 

 

Posted by: @herupakraath

, would you consider that VPG?

 

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

No. 

 

Fair.

 

Longer explanation:

 

If its verified by an external source that is not a subjective one, then it would be VPG.  The problem with gematria is how easy it is to get, as Shiva might say, fiddly, with it. It tends to lean too much in to subjectivity to serve as a good example. Now, if you discover a previously unknown to you attribute of Mercury's, like maybe a connection with the constellation of Ursa Major, and then learned that in some rare archaeological sources such a connection was acknowledged, that would be VPG. 

 


   
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wellreadwellbred
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The absolute location, or exact location, for where J. W. Parsons declared that his Babalon Working was done (as in, accomplished and/or endured), was also known after his lifetime.


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The absolute location, or exact location, for where J. W. Parsons declared that his Babalon Working was done (as in, accomplished and/or endured), was also known after his lifetime.

"was known" as in "but now lost" or do you care to tell us (and the OP) where it was done/accomplished/endured?

 


   
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herupakraath
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

No. 

Okay, I'll ask: Why not?

Posted by: @katrice

If its verified by an external source that is not a subjective one, then it would be VPG.

Example?

Posted by: @katrice

The problem with gematria is how easy it is to get, as Shiva might say, fiddly, with it.

The example I provided was created by figuring (not fiddling) the gematria value of Mercury using objective textbook letter values: Mem-Vav-Resh-Koph-Vav-Resh-Yod: no fiddling involved. Once the value of the name was determined, 482, the simplest alphanumeric equivalent was devised starting with the largest possible letter value, 400, which translates as Tav, or Th. The next largest possible letter value of the remainder 82 is 80, the value of Pe, or P. With vowels required to create an intelligible phrase, the remaining value of 2 was divided in two to arrive at the letter Aleph twice, which transposes into the English letter A: the result is A PATH. I spent all of one minute on the exercise.

If I were a god and wanted to verify that someone had successfully invoked me, the example provided is something similar to what I would use, and one of the functions of the magical alphabet as taught by Aleister Crowley. The fact that I devised the verifying phrase shows that it would be possible for someone to engage in deception and claim that it happened when it did not; that is why the result should be classified as a verified personal experience, given that it could never be proven to have happened.

What if someone else that was a party to the invocation had no experience with, or knowledge of gematria, and heard the phrase A PATH; would that qualify as VPG, or even SPG? By the way, Shared Personal Gnosis is an oxymoron, given that it cannot be both shared and personal.

 

 


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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I guess it would be definitely more convincing if someone who never heard of all that stuff would have heard "the path".

Posted by: @herupakraath

The example I provided was created by figuring (not fiddling) the gematria value of Mercury using objective textbook letter values: Mem-Vav-Resh-Koph-Vav-Resh-Yod: no fiddling involved.

Isn't it a kind of fiddling to use Vav for the E AND the U and Koph for the C? I am no expert but I think Heh and Gimel would be more fitting. Someone with no idea at all of this would have done it differently when checking f.ex. the wikipedia entries on the Hebrew Alphabet.

Posted by: @herupakraath

By the way, Shared Personal Gnosis is an oxymoron, given that it cannot be both shared and personal.

Do you have a better idea how to call it when two people compare their UPGs and find them identical?

 


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

The absolute location, or exact location, for where J. W. Parsons declared that his Babalon Working was done (as in, accomplished and/or endured), was also known after his lifetime.

But this statement of yours makes no sense as presented. Please reword or be prepared to get sued for inflicting mental disorders on others.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

and Koph for the C?

You call upon an interesting subject. To apply a number value to "C" in the Tri-key upgrade, this would be okay - leaving "C" as it is. But when we use the Hebrew QBL, there is no "C" - there is a "G" which scrambles one's eggs.

"Nonsense," I have always said. The letter "C" must (imperative bias) be numbered according to it's pronunciatiation ... and "C" is prounounced either as an "S" or a "K". We see here a reflection of high German vs Low German, Castillian Spanish vs Mexican Spanish - I am an expert in both these lingo differentiations, having penetrated deeply into each variation to actually note the difference ... then turn my back, walk away, and give up on other lingos forever.

In the case of Mercury, this is a hard K. There is no indication of G or S being involved.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Do you have a better idea how to call it when two people compare their UPGs and find them identical?

Transpersonal Gnosis would be more accurate, if one were splitting hairs, but hair-splitting is not a factor in any form of Gnosis. Any names, numbers, titles, visions, forms will bounce off Gnosis, and their opposite will appear alongside the original hypoaxiom, leaving room for endless debate.

 


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Back to the topic: I have just been thumbing through some books on Parsons and I personally can't find any reason that the Babalon Working(s) haven't been performed at Agape Lodge in Pasadena. "Disturbing tenants" are mentioned as well as "secret passageways" which all fit to the house at 1003 S Orange Grove Blvd. It was the "book of Babalon" that was received in the desert. But maybe @wellreadwellbred knows more.


   
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(@hadgigegenraum)
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@the_real_simon_iff 

I recall reading that recordings, I belief of Rachmaninoff, were used in the rituals, which thus presumes a source of electricity, unless it was an old wind up gramaphone...to which then the question is: Who did the cranking?!


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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@hadgigegenraum Yes, also that.


   
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