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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/12/2009 1:08 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I've been considering petitioning the A. A. for many years now, but I still haven't finished absorbing all of the so-called student material. I don't even know if the A. A. is still really active anymore, but my intuition says that it is still so. Last year, the opportunity to join the O.T.O. fell in my lap, so to speak, so I chalked that up as "the universe and I agreed that it would be so". Some instinct, however, keeps telling me to wait on the A. A. ... and perhaps the right time will never come of its own accord in this incarnation. Any advice from the more experienced members?

I'll admit, I'm also intrigued by Spare, and have intermittently considered petitioning the I.O.T.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/12/2009 4:19 am  

All those who will to communicate with the A.'. A.'. may write:

Chancellor

BM ANKH

London WC1N 3XX ENGLAND

This was retrieved from http://www.outercol.org/ which was accessed via a link from the the OTO Grand Lodge page at http://oto-usa.org/ . This is the same A A that J. Daniel Gunther speaks of on his Thelema Now podcaste concerning his new book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child
I am under the impression that this is only one line of many valid AA lines. Whatever that may mean.


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newneubergOuch2
(@newneubergouch2)
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20/12/2009 4:59 am  

heh heh, I was going to post the above link myself. There are several AA lineages, a good start would be to google the AA, read their different websites and see which line feels most comfortable for you.

Ah the age of the internet, where admission to a secret society or order is only a google search and click away, and hidden masters profiles can be found on facebook 😀


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
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20/12/2009 8:48 am  

Ah the age of the internet, where admission to a secret society or order is only a google search and click away, and hidden masters profiles can be found on facebook

Perhaps that's only a feature of the A.'.A.'. mentioned above?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/12/2009 11:54 pm  

As has been mentioned above, there are several AA branches out there. For good or for bad, the organization really split after Crowley's death since Karl Germer didn't really run with it. Between the two men, there were a few that were initiated and went on to initiate others. There is the Gunther branch as mentioned above, which has roots from Motta from my understanding, the Soror Estai/Meral/James Eshelman lineage who also runs the College and Temple of Thelema, Frater 939/HOOR lineage (another one which I believe stems from Motta too..don't quote me on it though), McMurtry/Cornelius lineage and a couple of more out there. I won't put my plug for any of them, even though I belong to one, because I believe that there was some good that came out of the split with there being different options/avenues for people to approach. There just happens to be the unfortunate side effect of people bickering who is more legitimate than others and who is over who.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/12/2009 2:22 am  

Thanks for the wealth of information on the A. A. I honestly didn't realize that there were other branches; I only knew of the one which is linked via the OTO ( http://www.outercol.org).

Without necessarily "plugging" for one branch or another, can any of you describe some of the differences in methodology, doctrine, etc. between the various lineages? I'm not so much interested in legitimacy per se, but effectiveness. For instance, I have a copy of the Eshelmann A. A. book... does what's described therein differ greatly from what's offered in such-and-such branch? And most importantly, can one be sure that one is spiritually ready to take the plunge? Is there some way to know? Or is it just a matter of "I will it, therefore, so mote it be". Sometimes I feel that I should wait for some sort of synchronicity or sign (or some such thing) which "green lights" me for petitioning, as what happened for me with both the OTO and the Freemasons, but thus far, there's only my curiosity.

By the way, thanks SSS for the heads-up on the J. Daniel Gunther podcast. I listened to it eagerly, and found it quite encouraging. He really seems to know his stuff!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/12/2009 5:11 am  
"sigilcaster" wrote:
By the way, thanks SSS for the heads-up on the J. Daniel Gunther podcast. I listened to it eagerly, and found it quite encouraging. He really seems to know his stuff!

He certainly does seem to know his stuff. I haven't read his book yet, but it is sitting under my Xmas tree.

I do want to join the A A, but I know that I do not have the time right now for such a hardcore program. When I finish College and get a better Job, and my children grow up just a bit, then I may take that plunge.

All I have to do is read LIBER 31, or LIBER 418, to remind myself of why I want to join the A. A. .


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
22/12/2009 6:10 am  
"sigilcaster" wrote:
Without necessarily "plugging" for one branch or another, can any of you describe some of the differences in methodology, doctrine, etc. between the various lineages? ... For instance, I have a copy of the Eshelmann A. A. book... does what's described therein differ greatly from what's offered in such-and-such branch? And most importantly, can one be sure that one is spiritually ready to take the plunge?

If you have Eshelman's book then you should have a pretty good idea how the Estai/Meral branch is run because Soror Meral was his teacher. They do things very by the book by which Crowley wrote it all. I believe the Gunther and Frater 939 lineages "acknowledge" each other and both have roots from Motta and differ slightly from the Estai lineage in some of the interpretation of some of the rituals and the style of the robes. The McMurtry/Cornelius lineage differs pretty greatly from the rest, modeled around only 3 "grades" and focuses more on "know thyself" over following the specific outline/regiment of the original design of the AA. I know there are other lineages out there too but those are the four that I am most familiar with and I believe are the most public. The Gunther one is obviously the most public since they are advertised in every book published by the OTO.

I have Gunther's book, still haven't finished it but it does have a wealth of information. A lot of the information is pretty specific to the AA but I can think any Thelemite or student of magick could gain a thing or two by reading it.

As for whether to join the AA, it's really a very personal decision. I'll be honest in that it's hard being part of an organization but not really being part of a "group" since it's all on student/teacher relationship.


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eol
 eol
(@eol)
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22/12/2009 12:11 pm  

93

It all sums up to your personal work. There is no one to push you to do anything. As for the right lineage - I was once told that there are no right lineages just right people. I've found that to be so true.

93 93/93


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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23/12/2009 3:51 pm  

As for the right lineage - I was once told that there are no right lineages just right people. I've found that to be so true.

This has also been a very simple and yet poignant discovery for myself.

Our lives are short. Choose wisely.

🙂


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eol
 eol
(@eol)
Member Admin
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23/12/2009 4:24 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:
Our lives are short. Choose wisely.

🙂

This is so true. All quarrels about "the right" lineage end up to be pointless. 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/12/2009 4:53 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

You may contact A.'.A.'. here:

A.'.A.'.
PO Box 215483
Sacramento, CA 95821

cancellarius@animasolis.com
http://cotnorcal.org/COTNC/A..A...html

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/12/2009 9:58 pm  

With no disrespect intended, this body has never and will never be controlled by the mundane forces of mankind.
Climb the mountain yourself, as all who have attemped or climbed cannot tell you a route to take, they merely give advice on the chances of survival. The mountain is subject to the forces of erosion so to speak and each climb and climber must read the mountain for themselves.
My tip take off your boots and climb in your socks, you'll see what I mean when you are up there.
Kindest regards and best wishes.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/03/2010 8:40 am  

This seemed like a good place to post my question, rather than creating a thread.

Can anyone give me a good idea of what the Student-Exam is like? I understand on the Student Oath form it states that; "The student is expected to show a thorough acquaintance with the books referred to, but not necessarily understand them in any deeper sense."

I'm not really grasping what level of understanding i am supposed to be holding, before i am ready to take the exam. Now, i will pursue this with or with out the A.:.A.:. But i have a strong urge to follow this path, and i simply want to know how i will be prepared for the student exam.


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Lucius
(@lucius)
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Posts: 42
03/03/2010 8:30 am  

The best advice I've heard for the student exam was given by Achad to Frank Bennett: "You must dig deeper beneath the surface."
Keep in mind that the published examples (such as in Commentaries on the Holy Books) if answered in full, would confer a much higher grade than Probationer (Exempt Adept, in fact) so you can consider it more as a yardstick in my opinion.

As for readiness, I've seldom seen a single would-be Initiate for whom that wasn't a serious topic of concern. The A.'.A.'. can be a tough row to hoe but the rewards are rich and so "thou hast no right but to do thy will."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/03/2010 11:13 pm  
"93rdLibra" wrote:
Can anyone give me a good idea of what the Student-Exam is like?

I believe the Exam given to Grant by Crowley is published in the former's book Remembering Aleister Crowley.


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 Anonymous
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04/03/2010 7:17 am  

Moderator's Note

Attempt to solicit copy of copyright material deleted. Please read the Guidelines.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/04/2010 9:25 pm  

I was told a few years ago, that I had completed the student college,and would be accepted as a probationer. When I tried to get my schedule to coincide with the Zealator in charge, I received no more word, so I suppose I was dropped. This after being taken on as a student by a man that ran off with all student records, and didn't contact anyone in the order when he left A.A. any similar experiences out there?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/04/2010 9:29 pm  

Having said that, I do realize orders, even Magickal ones, contain people, and people, all of us can be assholes, at one time or another. Love is the Law, Love under Will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/04/2010 9:46 pm  

The Student exam was pretty damn easy, for me anyway. I only took it so I could get the Probationer Oath to take and after that I made no further contact with them.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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30/04/2010 9:24 am  

93,

It's all about thread necromancy! The Lineages of the A.'.A.'.

Best wishes in the Great Work!

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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30/04/2010 9:59 am  

93,

Sorry for the double post, but its really two different trains of thought.

The A:.A:. ... What can I say? I've been involved with the A:.A:. in one way or another consciously since 1999. Well, shit... mystery is the enemy of truth. Send the dogs if you want to...

The first Lineage I was a part of was stated to have connection with Motta. That is, my Superior at the time had founded his own school of thought and ran with it. If I remember right, a student of Motta's help him get to 5=6, and he went from there. Such was the connection as far as Lineage goes. As for style, it was the most wonderful experience of my life both Magickally and Mystically. Unfortunately, things didn't quite work out for various reasons, and I ended up leaving after a couple years in. The system itself was a 3 Grade system, with divisions among some of the Grades, as far as I understood.

After leaving that Lineage, I wound up with another one descended from Motta, one with a (former?) connection to H.O.O.R. Technically I am still with them to this day, although who knows what the future holds. Perhaps the most important thing to realize in the comparison of the two is that while both Lineages have connections to Motta in some way, their methods are extremely different.

As for Student Exams... I've taken two in the past, one for each Lineage. Essentially, the Student period is mainly used in order to help the Aspirant obtain a general intellectual knowledge of things, and also to help him/her develop a sense of the language and terminology that will be used later on. The Student Exams I've taken, one I know for certain was used by Crowley, and I'm pretty sure the second was too, though they were different Exams. On the instructions the point is emphasized that a "perfect score" (there really is no score) would resemble the intellectual attainment of Adeptus Exmptus. As such, one really shouldn't worry about getting any of the answers "right", but rather giving one's very best effort and being as thorough as possible. The second Exam took me over 10 page to answer everything completely, granted most of it was probably long winded garbage looking back on it now.

Keep in mind when dealing with the A:.A:. or any organization that you are what you eat. Simply, once you get yourself involved with an organization and you begin to be influenced by its teachings (or lack thereof in some cases), you will slowly develop in a certain way. That said, be very careful about who you associate with an in what ways. This is also helpful in the discussion of Chastity that you will see through the various A:.A:. Tasks.

Also keep in mind that it is your spiritual adventure. You cannot have another person's adventure, and another person cannot have yours. Therefore, what occurs is completely in your hands for the most part. Communication is also a key in this, especially when dealing with Superiors. Some communicate more than others, and it may take some time before you find that organization that you really feel like you fit in with. Also, with the A:.A:. as with any other system, the meat and bones are your meal ticket. Do yourself a favor and don't fall for the sparkling auras, but ask yourself honestly "what does this Lineage have to offer me that I cannot get anywhere else? What makes it special? What do I have to offer the Lineage that will make me helpful in some way, etc." In short, go through it all with a fine tooth comb before you make any decisions, and don't be afraid to treat it all like a job of sorts, "in business way" in your approach. Yes, it's fun, but it can also be downright painful, so pack your aspirin in your travel bag along with the many grains of salt you will need.

Oh, and don't forget to bring a towel.

Best of luck.

93 93/93

P.S. You'll read this here and elsewhere: Anyone who tries to charge you money for teachings or associations is pulling your leg. In cases of organizations of Freemasonry (such as the O.T.O), dues are common and acceptable. But the minute someone tells you that you cannot get "x" teaching until you give them $, tell them to con someone else and make good use of Google.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/04/2010 1:37 pm  

93

Man, why'd you have to drag that up. It was some good discussion but it showed me being foolish enough to start arguing interpretation of Liber AL. Ah, I am but a Fool 🙂

Good post though, Azidonis.

As for examples of the student test, if one googles, you can find some examples floating around on the internetz.

I know I've mentioned it at one point or another but it is actually the Cornelius lineage that I belong to. Jerry Cornelius constantly evolves the process of how to bring people into our lineage and it's not the same as when I first joined, about 9 years ago now.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/04/2010 3:52 pm  
"zohabus77" wrote:
any similar experiences out there?

There's probably quite a few. Which lineage was it?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/04/2010 4:35 pm  

I,m afraid I don't know the answer to that, I do know The H.O.O.R. connection was my first experience with a disappearing teacher, and was told " the A.. A.. is a sempiternal organization the aspirant knows only the person who introduces them , and the person they introduce" as for the second time I mailed my exam firstly to London England, and then my connection was in Washington state, saying he would be moving to Buffalo, then would not anser any of my questions. He was quite hard to nail down, so to speak. I of course did not stop study and practice, and am still on the path.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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30/04/2010 5:08 pm  

93,

What's up with this H.O.O.R. connection thing... something about it really sends chills down my spine. I don't suppose it has anything to do with Cherubim possibly being a nutcase?

Okay, sorry... that's out of line.

93 93/93


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phthah
(@phthah)
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Posts: 210
30/04/2010 6:52 pm  

93 Az,

"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

It's all about thread necromancy! The Lineages of the A.'.A.'.

After perusing your previous Lineage thread I couldn't help but laugh at your sarcastic comment regarding the direction it was going, "So... wonderful Lineage discussion!" 😆

93 93/93
phthah


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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30/04/2010 10:58 pm  
"phthah" wrote:
93 Az,

"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

It's all about thread necromancy! The Lineages of the A.'.A.'.

After perusing your previous Lineage thread I couldn't help but laugh at your sarcastic comment regarding the direction it was going, "So... wonderful Lineage discussion!" 😆

93 93/93
phthah

93,

Ya, you know how it goes.. I posted it hoping to get some real input on the various lineages at the time, just to get the information out to the public, but there's always someone that has to walk into room drunk making an ass of themselves and turning the conversation away from the topic.

Looking over the thread now, I'm sure there are some diamonds in the rough.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
01/05/2010 3:26 am  

I have, based partly on observation of the behaviour of the founder of the A.'.A.'.'s own personal defects, partly on the pretentions of living would-be self-advertising 'representatives' of an order which was never fully functional in the mundane sphere during Crowley's time (in terms of having each grade represented coetaneously), and based partly on observations of the shortcomings of human nature, to instead employ the structure in the mythological and suggestive light in which I believe its chief value lies, and trust to Them to provide me with the Instruction through whatever means are to hand, rather than those that simply bear the outward label "A.'.A.'." . That's how Crowley viewed Eckenstein, for example, and others. It's also how I believe works such as the Cloud Upon The Sanctuary, the Fama, etc. to be intended. A spiritual movement is just that. We suffer from excessive literalism.

"There be masked ones my servants".

N.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
01/05/2010 8:09 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I don't suppose it has anything to do with Cherubim possibly being a nutcase?

93.

Cherubim, as in David Cherubim? This is the former leader of TGD right? I didn't know he was associated with HOOR too.

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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01/05/2010 6:20 pm  
"kuniggety" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I don't suppose it has anything to do with Cherubim possibly being a nutcase?

93.

Cherubim, as in David Cherubim? This is the former leader of TGD right? I didn't know he was associated with HOOR too.

93 93/93

93,

I'm pretty sure I was thinking of David Bersson, not David Cherubim, Kun... thanks.

David Cherubim is the English Qabalah guy that works with Thelemic Golden Dawn...

David Bersson is the nutcase. I remember him at one time having some connection with H.O.O.R. even in association, but I could be proved wrong. Oh, the stories I could share...

Noc, I'm pretty sure I agree with you for the most part.

93 93/93


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2575
02/05/2010 4:19 pm  

I dont want to drag this too off topic but it is originally related to AA petitioning. In that I was looking for a teacher to help me with magical stuff. And I found an ad online for a magic and qabalah class hosted by this David Cherubim chap. But one look at his website sent my spidey sense tingling like it was a bad idea. I know HTML is no way to class someone but choice of style tells alot about a person and I think I am very glad I didnt meet up with him and petitioned the AA in California instead. Its funny that other people have that opinion of Cherubim and not just me. hmm. see http://davidcherubim.net/davidcherubim.htm
ASOM COOL METAL PAGE!>! O_O
cheers all...


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/05/2010 4:31 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"kuniggety" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I don't suppose it has anything to do with Cherubim possibly being a nutcase?

93.

Cherubim, as in David Cherubim? This is the former leader of TGD right? I didn't know he was associated with HOOR too.

93 93/93

93,

I'm pretty sure I was thinking of David Bersson, not David Cherubim, Kun... thanks.

David Cherubim is the English Qabalah guy that works with Thelemic Golden Dawn...

David Bersson is the nutcase. I remember him at one time having some connection with H.O.O.R. even in association, but I could be proved wrong. Oh, the stories I could share...

Noc, I'm pretty sure I agree with you for the most part.

93 93/93

You are quite wrong. Bersson took over the American remnants of Motta's Society OTO in the late 80s and early 90s. HOOR is Ray Eales reformation of the Society OTO. Bersson and Eales are friends though...


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
02/05/2010 8:04 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
"kuniggety" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I don't suppose it has anything to do with Cherubim possibly being a nutcase?

93.

Cherubim, as in David Cherubim? This is the former leader of TGD right? I didn't know he was associated with HOOR too.

93 93/93

93,

I'm pretty sure I was thinking of David Bersson, not David Cherubim, Kun... thanks.

David Cherubim is the English Qabalah guy that works with Thelemic Golden Dawn...

David Bersson is the nutcase. I remember him at one time having some connection with H.O.O.R. even in association, but I could be proved wrong. Oh, the stories I could share...

Noc, I'm pretty sure I agree with you for the most part.

93 93/93

You are quite wrong. Bersson took over the American remnants of Motta's Society OTO in the late 80s and early 90s. HOOR is Ray Eales reformation of the Society OTO. Bersson and Eales are friends though...

93,

I'm suppose I could make the point that Motta was supposedly never in the OTO, which would make the "Society OTO" an offshoot at best.

Also, have you actually looked at Bersson's work?

Now to be more debate friendly, I must say that my statement was, "David Bersson is the nutcase. I remember him at one time having some connection with H.O.O.R. even in association, but I could be proved wrong. Oh, the stories I could share...".

In analysis we have a few points, "David Bersson is a nutcase", which is an opinion and thus can neither be right nor wrong. "David Bersson had some connection with H.O.O.R. even in association." I assume this is the point you are saying I'm wrong about, while admitting that Bersson and Eales are friends which would make Bersson connected with H.O.O.R. by association, would it not?

As a side note, does anyone wonder why when Motta died and everyone went their respectfully separate ways and has remained relatively quiet, with the exception of perhaps Bersson? And for all the good wishes and "system and system" things, there are only a couple of people who seemingly remained in contact after Motta's death? Yes, it could be the rule for who you are allowed to know, but as we have seen in many cases when Crowley was alive at least, that idea doesn't seem to always be adhered to.

No, I'm not trying to start some big conspiracy theory bullshit. I'm simply saying that with all of the b.s. already running around on the internet and elsewhere, no one seems to want to back up anything at all. While I recognize that various Lineages of the A:.A:. have varying Periods of Silence (how'd that happen anyway), when those Silences are over, shouldn't they be correcting some of the inaccuracies, or moving so decidedly beyond them that the old accusations were mute? Shouldn't the A:.A:. be showing progress to the world in one way or another, and in every Lineage?


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1126
02/05/2010 8:14 pm  

This comes back to the old: "Show me the Third Order Teachings!" No-one has yet got beyond this, not even Crowley with his mystic poetry.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
02/05/2010 8:26 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
This comes back to the old: "Show me the Third Order Teachings!" No-one has yet got beyond this, not even Crowley with his mystic poetry.

93,

Asking for that has proved to be futile.

My grandmother makes a great potato salad. Every time she makes it, everyone wonders in delight at how she made it, all the while enjoying the lovely taste and texture, and smiling at the beauty of it. Yet she does not tell anyone her recipe.

Where is the potato salad? We know all the recipes, save the "secret" or "Third Order" ones. But the Third Order isn't making potato salad? Just for kicks I took a look at Bersson's Site a few moments ago, and the front page announces that his Lineage is in a Period of Silence beginning April 8, 2010 ev. So, the world won't see any potato salad from him for at least another 5 years... but what of the Period of Speach? Was there any potato salad?

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
04/05/2010 9:22 pm  

Potato salad yeah o.k. , it's obvious you are in possession of superior knowledge, please start your own order so we can join.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
05/05/2010 12:15 am  
"zohabus77" wrote:
Potato salad yeah o.k. , it's obvious you are in possession of superior knowledge, please start your own order so we can join.

93,

Good job missing the point.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
05/05/2010 1:40 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

I'm suppose I could make the point that Motta was supposedly never in the OTO, which would make the "Society OTO" an offshoot at best.

Also, have you actually looked at Bersson's work?

As a side note, does anyone wonder why when Motta died and everyone went their respectfully separate ways and has remained relatively quiet, with the exception of perhaps Bersson? And for all the good wishes and "system and system" things, there are only a couple of people who seemingly remained in contact after Motta's death? Yes, it could be the rule for who you are allowed to know, but as we have seen in many cases when Crowley was alive at least, that idea doesn't seem to always be adhered to.

No, I'm not trying to start some big conspiracy theory bullshit. I'm simply saying that with all of the b.s. already running around on the internet and elsewhere, no one seems to want to back up anything at all. While I recognize that various Lineages of the A:.A:. have varying Periods of Silence (how'd that happen anyway), when those Silences are over, shouldn't they be correcting some of the inaccuracies, or moving so decidedly beyond them that the old accusations were mute? Shouldn't the A:.A:. be showing progress to the world in one way or another, and in every Lineage?

I used to live with Bersson in Pittsburgh and was quite intimate with his work. I also hosted the Society OTO website at one time while I was a member of the order. As to Motta being in the OTO, I won't comment. I don't think it matters if the Society OTO is an offshoot or the real deal when it comes to the issue of Motta's succession etc.

What essentially happened when Motta died though was that one of the trustees in his Will seperated herself from the trust before it could be executed, this led to schisms based on some ego issues. I won't go into the details but I am also very aware of some of the issues surrounding what happened in the late 80s and early 90s that led to Bersson taking over the remnants that weren't Bardon's little group in Australia or Paolo Manini's group in Brazil (he associated with Bardon as the only SOTO member named in Motta's Will). Eales went off and formed HOOR.

Now just because you are friends with someone doesn't mean you are associated with their organization. THat is like saying because I know Father Ralphus that I must be associated with the Catholic Church. Not so, not true and not how it works. I have friends in the Church of Scientology, Church of Satan and Temple of Set but I wouldn't consider myself associated with those organizations.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/05/2010 10:23 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
"zohabus77" wrote:
Potato salad yeah o.k. , it's obvious you are in possession of superior knowledge, please start your own order so we can join.

93,

Good job missing the point.

93 93/93

Sorry, but when subjected to that stream of uninterrupted attention seeking of yours, one does tend to doze off !!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
06/05/2010 10:24 pm  

Oh but please tell us more ( I'm sure you will) how about Tacos this time ?????


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
07/05/2010 3:20 pm  
"zohabus77" wrote:
Oh but please tell us more ( I'm sure you will) how about Tacos this time ?????

93,

Since you are just begging for me to post, and still obviously haven't learned how to read correctly, I'll simply reiterate myself.

It is often said, "ye shall know them by their fruits". My point was, and is, that many of these "occult" orders have not produced any. Agreed, pointing towards one order or another is a bit overboard, but it was a challenge as we say in English. So far no one has posted anything to the contrary of my "challenge".

All too often people get into various organizations with no idea what those organizations are really about, only what they purport to be and what the seeker wants them to be. The reality often is not the same thing. Thus, in order to help mitigate some of the foolishness, it is quite acceptable to ask to see the fruits of the organization. "What does your organization do?" That doesn't beg the question of how many hours one spends in Asana each day, how fully one can conjure up a mist and call it Goetic, or any of that stuff. Quite simply, how are the efforts of your particular organization (or branch of it) manifesting into Assiah? If an organization cannot answer that question, then one is left to wonder if the organization is making any progress at all. If the organization declines to answer the question, it begs a repeat of the adage "mystery is the enemy of Truth".

Of course I came off in a challenging manner about it. Who else has issued such a statement in the last X amount of years? Typically such statements are met with the very asinine comments your have made yourself... the whole "why should anyone have to justify themselves to you", routine. Ergo, you are missing the point. The question wasn't asked for me personally. I know many of these organizations and what they are doing in/for this world. I also know that some of them are outright shit, despite their reputations. However, that information is not always common knowledge, and one should not assume it is common knowledge in a thread such as this, in which a seeker makes it known that he wished to aspire to the A:.A:. To shroud one's words in the common occult overtone of "you will see, my son... just step through these doors and take this oath" is utter bullshit. All of the so called "secrets" are already out there, in the world, and practiced on an everyday basis. Just because "you" don't know what these secrets are does not mean they don't exist, or even that they are secret! It is just secret to you because you haven't yet been exposed to it. This is true for any secret, and even things that are normally considered "beyond one's grade".

Again, mystery is the enemy of truth. The ability of a system or organization to stand tough against all scrutiny and bear the war scars of the trials is the system that will have merit down the road. But you cannot just toss a Tarot deck into the air, grab a card, and walk down the road daydreaming with it, then come back onto the internet saying you had some sort of vision... and then whine and cry when people begin to ask you for proof of that vision being more than simple mental masturbation.

I didn't set out to get all the attention of this thread, by the way. I set out to actually say when many people don't, and that is that some of the organizations in this world, while holding names invoking the idea of higher standards, are in reality simply just crap. If one wishes to prove me wrong they may do so by simply pointing out the fruits of any organization to the people of this Forum. It does not require a "we don't need to justify ourselves to you" argument. Either you can tell us how your organization manifests in Assiah and makes a viable impact for the betterment of humanity and the promulgation of the Law, or you cannot.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
09/05/2010 10:05 pm  

Yes good idea azid, why don't you go re iterate yourself?????


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
09/05/2010 10:45 pm  
"zohabus77" wrote:
I was told a few years ago, that I had completed the student college,and would be accepted as a probationer. When I tried to get my schedule to coincide with the Zealator in charge, I received no more word, so I suppose I was dropped.

93,

I'm beginning to assume this was not a coincidence.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/05/2010 7:21 pm  

You probably "assume" quite a bit, keeps you from confronting the truth, I assume!!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/05/2010 7:23 pm  

Sure could go for some potato salad , oh wait, is this a parable? the wise man and the potato salad it's from the new testament I believe!!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
13/05/2010 10:01 pm  

You two gentlemen should kiss and make up or bugger off as I'm sure I am not the only one to be getting a little tired of your ridiculously
infantile bickering.
Sorry to appear cantankerous but come on give us a break.
Kind regards,


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mika
 mika
(@mika)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 360
13/05/2010 11:59 pm  

There is no secret ingredient.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
14/05/2010 12:14 am  

93,

The bickering would be better for PMs, as it really detracts from the thread. If you have a personal disagreement zohabus, Private Message is where it needs to go if you cannot discuss matters in a civil way.

As for my statements, I'll continue feel and express as I do. The manifestation of the Work on Assiah is paramount to any actual attainment, as it were. It should be simple enough to see how such a statement is related to this thread. If the organization one is seeking to become a member of does not manifest its Work in some positive manner, it is a tell-tale sign that the organization may be full of charlatans.

Zohabus, your "pop shots" do not disprove this claim. Where it concerns the "make your own Order" business, the answer is quite simple: I haven't, and I don't plan to. The GWB is enough for me. However, if the Lineage I am a part of proved itself unproductive on the physical plane, where manifestation of the Great Work is concerned, then I would most likely resign. None of this however changes the fact that many organizations do not manifest anything but thought forms and phantasms, and their efforts can easily be seen as nothing more than a circle jerk. Simply calling them out on their nonsense may offend you, but I could really care less.

As I believe Paul would say, stay on topic, or take it to PM.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/05/2010 10:30 pm  

I as well will express myself as I will, it appears as I feared a reading of Aleister crowley with little understanding, and less humor you are what is wrong with organizations, and the scene in general as for you remeavi...who cares, you continue to read what is said betweenazid and myself mind your fucking business!


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