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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/05/2007 11:23 pm  

Looking for more information on what this website is all about:

http://seriousthelema.com/


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Proteus
(@proteus)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 243
25/05/2007 11:44 pm  

You should be able to find some information on the OTO Foundation on the web. For what it's worth, here's what Peter Koenig had to say about them.
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/collect/ok4.ht m"> http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/dplanet/collect/ok4.htm


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
Magister
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 372
25/05/2007 11:46 pm  

YAOTO = Yet Another OTO. Starting a Thelemic meeting place is grand. Stealing other organizations name is not. And the blue color strains my eyes. 😡

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/05/2007 11:56 pm  

I've read Koenig's stuff on this 'Foundation'. Its amusing.

I was on myspace and noticed a link to this site. Read all the material and was completely perturbed.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/05/2007 1:56 am  

nevermind


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Acrylick
(@acrylick)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 49
26/05/2007 6:38 am  

they have a myspace page...
myspace.com/seriousthelema

i bring important observations to the table


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/05/2007 7:13 am  

I don't see what all the fuss is about, they've been around for several years as is and are broken off from the Caliphate. They received their charters from Frater U.'.D.'. and a few other resources. Let them be and don't make such a fuss. It does two things, it draws attention to them and it empowers them.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 686
26/05/2007 11:01 am  

completely perturbed.

- methinks your boat is easily rocked 😉

(They do highlight the clear need for more comedythelema...)


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
26/05/2007 8:10 pm  
"runelogix" wrote:
YAOTO = Yet Another OTO. Starting a Thelemic meeting place is grand. Stealing other organizations name is not. And the blue color strains my eyes. 😡

Whose name are they stealing?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/05/2007 8:30 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"runelogix" wrote:
YAOTO = Yet Another OTO. Starting a Thelemic meeting place is grand. Stealing other organizations name is not. And the blue color strains my eyes. 😡

Whose name are they stealing?

The OTO. There is SOTO, cOTO (caliphate OTO), typhonian OTO, etc etc etc. YAOTO.


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1856
26/05/2007 8:44 pm  

So which one suffered an infringement? 😆


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
Magister
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 372
26/05/2007 9:38 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"runelogix" wrote:
YAOTO = Yet Another OTO. Starting a Thelemic meeting place is grand. Stealing other organizations name is not. And the blue color strains my eyes. 😡

Whose name are they stealing?

From the true and invisible college of adepts.

(I have chosen not to have any loyalties in the Thelemic pantheon marketplace other than my IHO. I don't take an opinion on the result of various court cases about the matter, that isn't how I choose to spend my life.)

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 375
26/05/2007 11:06 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

At one time I was upset about the OTO wars, (every OTO claiming to be the real one). It no longer bothers me. As long as they do not deviate from what most Thelemites know is Thelema (one is free to interpert many things, but somethings are basic, inate, and carved in fire so to say)
whats the problem? If we had ten thousand different OTOs' all claiming the same thing, and thier Thelemic "work" was legit, would that not make Thelema more accessable to people? Of course they would have to understand what I explained above, or else they would cause confusion with the warring that would result if they did not! The AA channels much of the current to the truly dedicated aspariant as well as the didicated OTOs, so whats the problem? Every one should be comforted that the AA is beyond all this nonsense! Some like to socialize, some do not...to each their own.

Love is the law, love under will.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4087
26/05/2007 11:34 pm  

The fact is that we have several groups who call themselves O.T.O. legitimately, and the O.T.O. Foundation are one such. I have had occasional contact with its current head for several years now, and he strikes me as a man of integrity.

If some group of criminals were to found an O.T.O. to extort money from the unwary, that would be stealing the name of the Order. However, the O.T.O. Foundation was formed by members who had left the Caliphate O.T.O., including people who had been there from the McMurtry days. They could have used some other name, but they felt passionate about the O.T.O., and thus continued to operate under that banner. I admire them for it.

The O.T.O. is an extended family. Arising from several organisations sometime in the early years of the 20th Century, it seems to have been a loose federation of national O.T.O.s chartered by Reuss. Many of these seem to have died out over the years, or to have merged with other organisations. One of the more vigorous shoots of the Reuss O.T.O. was the Crowley/Germer O.T.O., which came to an end in 1962. This has spawned several other shoots posthumously, none of which are exclusively the O.T.O.

That's where we are today.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 375
27/05/2007 12:02 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Michael!
Agreed! The situation is actually better now than it was when a particular OTO was run by AC, though this is not do to 666's lack of involment therein. but rather the general state of things. One of those things making it better is the "resource" factor.

Love is the law, love under will.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 375
27/05/2007 5:39 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I would not exactly say the Crowley/Germer OTO ended in 1962. It is hard to put into words, but I would say it was jolted, shocked, and suspended into an incubational state of odd dormancy, and thereafter sprouted forth as a manyhood newly conceived. The McMurtry OTO, or Caliphate if one fancies to call it that, is in my opinion (albeit, much more successful than the former) still in an incubational stage of sorts as are the others. Though the Calaphate OTO won its court case so far as paper legitimacy seems to go, it seems to suffer from some lacking linkage of a fleshy tangibility.. So although any OTO can function well enough without AC, his “presence and aura of Power” enhanced things considerably. Only those who consider him as the definitive Earthly head of the AA- and Thelemic dynamo would appreciate what I am trying to express here. Any OTO having “The 666” as a member, be it a legitimate or dubious OTO, would be ipso-de- facto “The Crem+-dela-Crem+” even if he just sat around and watched TV all day! There would be no worry about paper trails and warrants etc; 666 himself would be the activating source of the Thelemic Mojo!

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
27/05/2007 9:04 am  
"sonofthestar@Gmail.com" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

At one time I was upset about the OTO wars, (every OTO claiming to be the real one). It no longer bothers me. As long as they do not deviate from what most Thelemites know is Thelema (one is free to interpert many things, but somethings are basic, inate, and carved in fire so to say)
whats the problem? If we had ten thousand different OTOs' all claiming the same thing, and thier Thelemic "work" was legit, would that not make Thelema more accessable to people? Of course they would have to understand what I explained above, or else they would cause confusion with the warring that would result if they did not!

I would like to know what you think are these "basic, inate, and carved in fire (although I think you mean stone) so to say" precepts of Thelema?

The AA channels much of the current to the truly dedicated aspariant as well as the didicated OTOs, so whats the problem? Every one should be comforted that the AA is beyond all this nonsense! Some like to socialize, some do not...to each their own.

Which AA are you talking about?

65 & 210,
111-418


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1856
27/05/2007 10:39 am  

666 himself would be the activating source of the Thelemic Mojo!

Disagree-and in Spades.

(and with all due respect-so please do not feel personally "attacked" here-I truly enjoy your posts and am quite enjoying your presence here!)

BUT-!

AC is NOT the begining or end of Thelema. I DO regard him as Prophet...but quoting my ever-adored Blake (who was quoting the BIBLE!):

"Would that ALL the Lord's people were Prophets!"

The OTO "wars" may very continue on and on. In court and in thought. But when one gets some distance from such things and looks in from without, it mirrors the silliness and stupidity of many other non-occult human ventures. I own. Copyright. Charter. Legitmacy.

Does THIS color your reality tunnel-? Pieces of paper???

But the debate will continue on. And on. And those embroiled in it with Titles and Degrees and perhaps years and years of service and love will feel very sensitive to the issue.

I don't give a damn.

Enough is too much!

The Aeon is here-now-driven with blood and fire. The combat between self-proclaimed "Thelemtes" just testifies to how much we're entrenched in the politics of it all. If WE can't manifest something different than the multitude of religions and governments out there, how dare we think we're one iota better or more advanced-?

We're here to go BEYOND! To live on the edge and push ourselves and hopefully leave behind our mark in the ever rolling Current-a mark which offers something good and wonderful and valuable to those who we'll never even SEE but who will look to what we've been as THEY rise up in flesh and seek after the Highest...

The fact is: there really ARE a multitude of OTOs. The 3 letters have gone beyond any one organization (unless the Philosopher Kings defer to Profane Law). We've all split off from the AC point in time into a multitude of branches, chartered or otherwise. And this is GOOD. We've all got work to do and various conglomerates offer various contexts for us to challenge ourselves and benefit others.

To cut to the chase, it's the Caliphate OTO which really thinks of itself as THE "OTO." But the pulse of Thelema and the world around us has no patience or sympathy for such a view. Let the lawsuits roll. Thelema is unperturbed. Our "cults" are just that. Little collectives outshined by the big wheels we would fain see fall.

It's only when you get at the rawness of your human life that the mystic truths of the universe unveil and blaze forth in glory. These truths have no place for squabbles over who has the "right" to what.

This being so, I think the most constructive and creative future in the Thelemic Realm lies in cooperation and mutual recognition of bodies which are truly devoted to the Great Work.

It amazes me how resistant so many are to this view.

But again, the Current doesn't care. And the Current will OUT!

It may very well be that "OTO" takes it's place in fossilized history and the Aeon takes upon Itself "New Vessels for the New Wine."

Unless, of course, "OTO" is ready for the Current Itself.

A tiresome debate-esp. when "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law." But also an opportunity for change, which is to say, Magick.

I wrote once in an old post that I like the Crowley the best when I've gotten some distance from the "Thelemites" and just sit alone and read what he wrote. It's THEN that I fall in love with the Prophet all over again. It's the religious bullshit sectarian Crowleyanity that makes me want to never return again.

Haven't we had enough of this-? I mean, really! Is "Crowleyanity" what you want from your life???

Do people on Lashtal.com feel that AC was somehow something that they could never become-right NOW-in THIS lifetime???

He's not "Uncle Al," he's "Brother Al." And as such, he's an amazing man, worthy of this "fan club." But when you see him otherwise, you've (to quote Stephen King's Dark Tower) "forgotten the face of your father."

O.T.O.

Ordo To Ovum-The Order of the Egg.

Crack the Shell and you'll see how irrelevant this line drawing IS.

93-93-93,

Kyle


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 375
27/05/2007 10:49 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I must have been writing this whilst you were writing too Kidneyhawk! Well not this upper add on, only what follows. And do not think I do not agree with 93 percent of your post.

Aum418!

Those things, which are innately “US” which permeates every fiber of our Thelemic beings! Yours! Mine! And those who dare to call themselves Thelemites…and of course those who lurk. And though many a woman has come close to turning my heart into stone, it is yet a seething sun fire wherein is written in leaping white hot licks of flame that There is no Law beyond Do What Thou Wilt!
That is why, even if the OTO this thread is about is doing a damned good job of things, calling itself exclusively “Serious Thelema” is absurd!
And yet hilarious. So I cannot fault them for not having a sense of humor.

Love is the law, love under will.


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AMTh
 AMTh
(@ameth441)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 85
27/05/2007 4:31 pm  

92 93/93

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
The fact is that we have several groups who call
themselves O.T.O. legitimately, and the O.T.O. Foundation are one such. I have had occasional contact with its current head for several years now, and he strikes me as a man of integrity.

If some group of criminals were to found an O.T.O. to extort money from the unwary, that would be stealing the name of the Order. However, the O.T.O. Foundation was formed by members who had left the Caliphate O.T.O., including people who had been there from the McMurtry days. They could have used some other name, but they felt passionate about the O.T.O., and thus continued to operate under that banner. I admire them for it.

The O.T.O. is an extended family. Arising from several organisations sometime in the early years of the 20th Century, it seems to have been a loose federation of national O.T.O.s chartered by Reuss. Many of these seem to have died out over the years, or to have merged with other organisations. One of the more vigorous shoots of the Reuss O.T.O. was the Crowley/Germer O.T.O., which came to an end in 1962. This has spawned several other shoots posthumously, none of which are exclusively the O.T.O.

That's where we are today.

Very well said Michael, i agree completely.Cheers.

Chris ; )


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AMTh
 AMTh
(@ameth441)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 85
27/05/2007 4:43 pm  
"kidneyhawk" wrote:

666 himself would be the activating source of the Thelemic Mojo!

Disagree-and in Spades.

(and with all due respect-so please do not feel personally "attacked" here-I truly enjoy your posts and am quite enjoying your presence here!)

BUT-!

AC is NOT the begining or end of Thelema. I DO regard him as Prophet...but quoting my ever-adored Blake (who was quoting the BIBLE!):

"Would that ALL the Lord's people were Prophets!"

The OTO "wars" may very continue on and on. In court and in thought. But when one gets some distance from such things and looks in from without, it mirrors the silliness and stupidity of many other non-occult human ventures. I own. Copyright. Charter. Legitmacy.

Does THIS color your reality tunnel-? Pieces of paper???

But the debate will continue on. And on. And those embroiled in it with Titles and Degrees and perhaps years and years of service and love will feel very sensitive to the issue.

I don't give a damn.

Enough is too much!

The Aeon is here-now-driven with blood and fire. The combat between self-proclaimed "Thelemtes" just testifies to how much we're entrenched in the politics of it all. If WE can't manifest something different than the multitude of religions and governments out there, how dare we think we're one iota better or more advanced-?

We're here to go BEYOND! To live on the edge and push ourselves and hopefully leave behind our mark in the ever rolling Current-a mark which offers something good and wonderful and valuable to those who we'll never even SEE but who will look to what we've been as THEY rise up in flesh and seek after the Highest...

The fact is: there really ARE a multitude of OTOs. The 3 letters have gone beyond any one organization (unless the Philosopher Kings defer to Profane Law). We've all split off from the AC point in time into a multitude of branches, chartered or otherwise. And this is GOOD. We've all got work to do and various conglomerates offer various contexts for us to challenge ourselves and benefit others.

To cut to the chase, it's the Caliphate OTO which really thinks of itself as THE "OTO." But the pulse of Thelema and the world around us has no patience or sympathy for such a view. Let the lawsuits roll. Thelema is unperturbed. Our "cults" are just that. Little collectives outshined by the big wheels we would fain see fall.

It's only when you get at the rawness of your human life that the mystic truths of the universe unveil and blaze forth in glory. These truths have no place for squabbles over who has the "right" to what.

This being so, I think the most constructive and creative future in the Thelemic Realm lies in cooperation and mutual recognition of bodies which are truly devoted to the Great Work.

It amazes me how resistant so many are to this view.

But again, the Current doesn't care. And the Current will OUT!

It may very well be that "OTO" takes it's place in fossilized history and the Aeon takes upon Itself "New Vessels for the New Wine."

Unless, of course, "OTO" is ready for the Current Itself.

A tiresome debate-esp. when "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law." But also an opportunity for change, which is to say, Magick.

I wrote once in an old post that I like the Crowley the best when I've gotten some distance from the "Thelemites" and just sit alone and read what he wrote. It's THEN that I fall in love with the Prophet all over again. It's the religious bullshit sectarian Crowleyanity that makes me want to never return again.

Haven't we had enough of this-? I mean, really! Is "Crowleyanity" what you want from your life???

Do people on Lashtal.com feel that AC was somehow something that they could never become-right NOW-in THIS lifetime???

He's not "Uncle Al," he's "Brother Al." And as such, he's an amazing man, worthy of this "fan club." But when you see him otherwise, you've (to quote Stephen King's Dark Tower) "forgotten the face of your father."

O.T.O.

Ordo To Ovum-The Order of the Egg.

Crack the Shell and you'll see how irrelevant this line drawing IS.

93-93-93,

Kyle

93 Kyle.

Completely flawless post my man, big ups.

93 93/93

Chris


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5328
27/05/2007 6:25 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
The fact is that we have several groups who call themselves O.T.O. legitimately, and the O.T.O. Foundation are one such.... That's where we are today.

Possibly.

But I suppose it depends on what is MEANT by "OTO", doesn't it?

Social club? Initiatic order? Loose body of practitioners? Copyright holder? Trademark owner?

Such a complex area for someone whose site is committed to being "non-partisan"!

Paul
Owner & Editor
LAShTAL.COM

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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RuneLogIX
(@runelogix)
Magister
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 372
27/05/2007 7:58 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
The fact is that we have several groups who call themselves O.T.O. legitimately, and the O.T.O. Foundation are one such.... That's where we are today.

Possibly.

But I suppose it depends on what is MEANT by "OTO", doesn't it?

Social club? Initiatic order? Loose body of practitioners? Copyright holder? Trademark owner?

Such a complex area for someone whose site is committed to being "non-partisan"!

Paul
Owner & Editor
LAShTAL.COM

Yup, that's exactly my problem with YAOTO. I'm not judging the sincerity or dedication of the people involved but I understand a couple principals of occult warfare that includes obfuscating reality into an ambiguity that masquerades as fact, and I have a problem with that.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
27/05/2007 7:58 pm  

(deleted for reasons of planetary security)


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1856
27/05/2007 8:26 pm  

Q-

You are wise.

Like an OWL.

P


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