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 Anonymous
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16/03/2009 4:58 am  

93

Does anyone know of any courses that have been (or are currently being) taught on Crowley or Thelema in any University?

93 93/93


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Palamedes
(@palamedes)
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16/03/2009 10:56 pm  

As far as I know, the answer is not. However, a major Crowley scholar, Dr Marco Pasi, teaches at the University of Amsterdam in the program on Western Esotericism (which offers B.A., M.A., and Ph.D.) and I assume that some of his teaching there covers some Crowley material. I believe that some of the students from that program are also members of Lashtal and they are more qualified than I am to provide the specifics.


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Frater_HPK
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17/03/2009 5:34 am  
"minervathena" wrote:
93

Does anyone know of any courses that have been (or are currently being) taught on Crowley or Thelema in any University?

93 93/93

"Do what thou wilt shall, that shall be the whole of the Law"

I think Crowley was in the program of Belgredian University, study of World Literature, (or maybe study of English language and literature), in eighties. As a poet, of course. I am not sure in this and in this sense this is only a possibility and something I heard long ago.

"Love is the law, love under will"

B.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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17/03/2009 12:42 pm  

minervathena, can i ask you why you need a uni to "teach" Thelema? How exactly would you envision a Uni teaching Thelema? Would it be historical? Would it be philosophical? And how would you determine if the staff were "qualified" to teach Thelema? It just seems to contradict the independent spirit of Thelelma.

Would your own personal experience not be a better teacher than any bogus qualification?


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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Posts: 461
17/03/2009 5:18 pm  
"zain" wrote:
minervathena, can i ask you why you need a uni to "teach" Thelema? How exactly would you envision a Uni teaching Thelema? Would it be historical? Would it be philosophical? And how would you determine if the staff were "qualified" to teach Thelema? It just seems to contradict the independent spirit of Thelelma.

Would your own personal experience not be a better teacher than any bogus qualification?

93,

I dont think minerva suggested you need a Univ. to teach Thelema but asked if there were any. I could think of many ways one could approach Thelema: philosophically, occult-ly/CM-ly, from a literature standpoint, from a counter culture standpoint (how he gave rise to 60s and such), and more (heck, one could teach a class on morality). There are many smart people in universities that would not get exposed to Thelema/AC otherwise that I believe would really enjoy it & resonate with it. Personal experience would certainly be a good qualification, although familiarity with the texts of Thelema is also a plus...

IAO131


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gurugeorge
(@gurugeorge)
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17/03/2009 6:41 pm  
"zain" wrote:
minervathena, can i ask you why you need a uni to "teach" Thelema? How exactly would you envision a Uni teaching Thelema? Would it be historical? Would it be philosophical? And how would you determine if the staff were "qualified" to teach Thelema? It just seems to contradict the independent spirit of Thelelma.

Would your own personal experience not be a better teacher than any bogus qualification?

I think you are jumping the gun here zain, and reading far more into minervathena's post than is warranted.

As to the OP, I think one person to ask about this would be the proprietor of that wonderful occult bookshop in London, not Watkins or the one in Museum Street, the one in Covent Garden the name of which escapes me. She is herself a scholar and I once had a long chat with her about the closely-related matter of occultism generally in academia, and she is very knowledgeable about that subject, so if there are any courses being taught about AC and Thelema, she would probably know about it.


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alysa
(@alysa)
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17/03/2009 7:10 pm  

Name of the shop is Treadwell's.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/03/2009 7:17 pm  

Besides Amsterdam, try Exeter:

http://huss.exeter.ac.uk/research/exeseso/


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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Posts: 461
17/03/2009 8:02 pm  
"tai" wrote:
Besides Amsterdam, try Exeter:

http://huss.exeter.ac.uk/research/exeseso/

93,

Doesnt look like the Western Esotericism MA doesnt have a class on or related to Crowley or Thelema (at least from their descriptions).

Amsterdam doesnt have any classes on Crowley or Thelema although there is one day dedicated to Crowley and others in one course (Hermetics IV) and another day dedicated to Crowley in some other course for the Western Esotericism degree.

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/03/2009 9:16 pm  

93,

That’s why I wrote “try”. Amsterdam, Exeter and Sorbonne are the only universities I’m aware of offering graduate degrees in Western Esotericism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Esotericism_(academia)

Minervathena should contact these departments and ask if Crowley and Thelema are covered any of the courses and, if not, whether they will be in the future.


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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17/03/2009 9:52 pm  
"tai" wrote:
93,

That’s why I wrote “try”. Amsterdam, Exeter and Sorbonne are the only universities I’m aware of offering graduate degrees in Western Esotericism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Esotericism_(academia)

Minervathena should contact these departments and ask if Crowley and Thelema are covered any of the courses and, if not, whether they will be in the future.

93,

That's probably why I 'tried' them... 😯 😀

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/03/2009 10:40 pm  

93 All,

"zain" wrote:
minervathena, can i ask you why you need a uni to "teach" Thelema? How exactly would you envision a Uni teaching Thelema? Would it be historical? Would it be philosophical? And how would you determine if the staff were "qualified" to teach Thelema? It just seems to contradict the independent spirit of Thelelma.

Would your own personal experience not be a better teacher than any bogus qualification?

Zain, I do not think that you NEED a University to teach Thelema, but I think that Thelema is a coherent system which deserves to be taken seriously by the academic community and taught either in a Religious Studies, Philosophy, or Comparative Literature department at universities. It could be approached historically or philosophically as you mention, there could also be other ways of going about it. As to the question regarding who is qualified to teach Thelema, how is any professor qualified to teach the subject he teaches? Those same standards should be held of Professors of Thelema.

I definitely do NOT think that teaching a course on Thelema contradicts Thelema's message in any way. Thelema should be discussed seriously, and classrooms are great places to foster this discussion. Of course, Thelema should not just be discussed, but also applied to our daily lives, and this is where our own personal experience comes in, which no class can teach. But a class can teach the fundamental ideas and practices of Thelema to help us understand it better as a system and apply it to our lives.

Also, thanks for the link tai!

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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18/03/2009 8:05 am  

minervathena at the best of times academia doesnt know if its coming or going. Academia has to conform to a set of rules and criteria that at times is not relevant to philosophical or mystical criteria. Its a like the hysterical scenarios of people who get "qualifications" in Kundalini Yoga from New age courses and they cant even explain how they would have a kundalini experience.

I am incredibly suspicious of the recent trend to giving degrees in esoterica. Its a rich kids skive basically. Those qualifications are essentially worthless. What type of job would you get with one? What would you be qualified in exactly? A degree in counting angels on the heads of needles? After getting the degree would you be able to vibrate god names perfectly?! And what would the degrees in esoterica give to you that you couldnt do by yourself? And who would be qualified to teach the ins and outs of Thelema? And could it actually be taught? And what are the chances these supposed academic qualifications in Thelema would be recognised by the Thelemic community at large? Cause i tell you i wouldnt recgonise them has anything but a skive.

I could understand if these courses were closer to historical degrees in that it would be useful from a sociological point of view (EG: cultural and political issues in history). But has an avenue into what Thelema is and isnt, academia would be found wanting badly.


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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18/03/2009 4:50 pm  
"zain" wrote:
minervathena at the best of times academia doesnt know if its coming or going. Academia has to conform to a set of rules and criteria that at times is not relevant to philosophical or mystical criteria.

Academia is pretty successful in my opinion... Perhaps the academic format is not THE most conducive for 'mystical criteria' (whatever that means) but philosophy and such has been taught in Universities since Universities began...

Its a like the hysterical scenarios of people who get "qualifications" in Kundalini Yoga from New age courses and they cant even explain how they would have a kundalini experience.

I dont think this course claims to bestow any kind of 'qualification' for anything... beyond credits for students who take the class.

I am incredibly suspicious of the recent trend to giving degrees in esoterica. Its a rich kids skive basically. Those qualifications are essentially worthless.

Its not like suddenly they are Great Magi who know all Esoteric secrets. Its obviously primarily historical with focus on literature...

What type of job would you get with one? What would you be qualified in exactly? A degree in counting angels on the heads of needles? After getting the degree would you be able to vibrate god names perfectly?!

I assume the whole 'job' thing is a concern of all people including those in 'weird' degrees like Esotericism but I dont see how that is much of an argument about anything - should universities only teach things which lead to good jobs? Dont think so...

And what would the degrees in esoterica give to you that you couldnt do by yourself?

An academic setting to research the history of Esoterica alongw ith an academic community to help and guide you?

And who would be qualified to teach the ins and outs of Thelema? And could it actually be taught? And what are the chances these supposed academic qualifications in Thelema would be recognised by the Thelemic community at large? Cause i tell you i wouldnt recgonise them has anything but a skive.

Good thing no one depends on your approval for doing what they enjoy. A good qualification seems to be someone who has enough willpower, energy, and resources to organize a class on it... Success is your proof.

I could understand if these courses were closer to historical degrees in that it would be useful from a sociological point of view (EG: cultural and political issues in history). But has an avenue into what Thelema is and isnt, academia would be found wanting badly.

Im not sure I understand how academia cant tackle the same things that youd approach on the internet, in books, etc.... What can academia NOT do that you supposedly can? Is the lodge setting really that much better for learning about esoterica, etc.?

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/03/2009 7:31 pm  

Hi there,

As far as I know, the only class offered at a university specifically devoted to Thelema, is a student taught course (DeCal, stands for Democratic Education at Cal) at UC Berkeley, called "Thelema: Aleister Crowley's Psycho-Spiritual Philosophy for a New Aeon."

http://thelemadecal.gq.nu/

Best wishes,

Henrik


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/03/2009 8:33 pm  

The link that Henrik has put up is a very good example and point of what i am conveying over the weakness of what academia can and cant do.

Can the thelemadecal course be described has "education" or even academia? The page describes the course as folowing "Democratic Education".

This means:
The goals of democratic education vary according to the participants, the location and the expected outcomes. Because of this, there is no one widely agreed upon definition. The "strongest, political rationale" for democratic education is that it teaches "the virtues of democratic deliberation for the sake of future citizenship

So essentially the course has no academic criteria and doesnt fulfill any. So therefore pointless. What would the thelemadecal course give you knowledge wise, that you couldnt do by yourself? The reason i am saying this is because i am suspicious of people who set themselves up has "teachers" in philosophical or mystical issues. To me the thelemadecal course is just a ruse for covert recruitment for local Caliphate lodges. And they are not alone. Many unis and colleges are constantly bombarded by cults and groups who are always seeking new members and somehow manage to hoodwink the establishment to allow them to recruit and "teach" on campus. Groups like Scientology and the Children of God done this in the eighties.

This gets to the crux of whether Thelema can actually be "taught". How do you teach a state of being or mystical bliss in a academic setting? 🙂


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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19/03/2009 9:53 pm  
"zain" wrote:
This gets to the crux of whether Thelema can actually be "taught". How do you teach a state of being or mystical bliss in a academic setting?

93, zain!

I guess your picture of what is taught in universities is a bit off-side. If you think that the disicipline of "comparative religious science" (I don't know if that is the correct translation) teaches you how to be a Christian or a Sufi, you are simply wrong. University studies, especially Humanities, is not about teaching. One should be taught how to evaluate different topics and then these topics are discussed and presented, but not taught. Do you need to be taught to be a Nazi to when you are studying fascism? Do you learn how to attain Samadhi when you have a course on Buddhism? No, you don't. Thelema is much more than just a religious philosophy, it has a massive (well, for the specialist at least) impact on culture or counter-culture for example, it combines various teachings from various religious systems, it has a fascinating prophet figure, it has interesting views on various matters of social and private life; but you won't become a Thelemite after a university course, just as you don't become a politician after studying political sciences, when studying English literature you don't become an Englishman afterwards. A course on philosophy at one university can be totally different than the same course at another school. It is known that you think Thelema is mainly a totally private and personal thing, un-teachable and non-communicable and should not be openly promulgated. Why not give a lecture on why you think so? I think you have a very low appreciation for students, most of them would know what to expect. And there would be no "I have to rush, tomorrow is my Ipssisimus exam, and I already failed twice!"

Love=Law
Lutz


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/03/2009 11:06 pm  

93 everyone:)
Actually, Pan's Asylum (Moscow OTO Lodge) conducts some kind of lessons calling it "Colledge-93" or "Thelema Colledge". But its not any kind of school or uni, I d say its rather courses. And being a member of Kiev OTO Oasis, "Parsifal", I must say we hold such calling "students' group" for future members of the OTO.


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IAO131
(@iao131)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 461
20/03/2009 9:11 pm  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
"zain" wrote:
This gets to the crux of whether Thelema can actually be "taught". How do you teach a state of being or mystical bliss in a academic setting?

93, zain!

I guess your picture of what is taught in universities is a bit off-side. If you think that the disicipline of "comparative religious science" (I don't know if that is the correct translation) teaches you how to be a Christian or a Sufi, you are simply wrong. University studies, especially Humanities, is not about teaching. One should be taught how to evaluate different topics and then these topics are discussed and presented, but not taught. Do you need to be taught to be a Nazi to when you are studying fascism? Do you learn how to attain Samadhi when you have a course on Buddhism? No, you don't. Thelema is much more than just a religious philosophy, it has a massive (well, for the specialist at least) impact on culture or counter-culture for example, it combines various teachings from various religious systems, it has a fascinating prophet figure, it has interesting views on various matters of social and private life; but you won't become a Thelemite after a university course, just as you don't become a politician after studying political sciences, when studying English literature you don't become an Englishman afterwards. A course on philosophy at one university can be totally different than the same course at another school. It is known that you think Thelema is mainly a totally private and personal thing, un-teachable and non-communicable and should not be openly promulgated. Why not give a lecture on why you think so? I think you have a very low appreciation for students, most of them would know what to expect. And there would be no "I have to rush, tomorrow is my Ipssisimus exam, and I already failed twice!"

Love=Law
Lutz

Agreed completely.

Zain: You jump to conclusions irrationally which shows the lack of actual thought put into this subject. You really think this class taught at UC Berkeley is a front for recruiting for the 'Caliphate'? How do you figure? Do you even know if the person teaching the class is an OTO member? Why jump to such silly conclusions. If you really want to know more about this class, look for the article "Thelema in the Classroom" in the Journal of Thelemic Studies II:2 which comes out today (March 20)

IAO131


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
21/03/2009 12:09 am  
"IAO131" wrote:
Agreed completely.

Zain: You jump to conclusions irrationally which shows the lack of actual thought put into this subject. You really think this class taught at UC Berkeley is a front for recruiting for the 'Caliphate'? How do you figure? Do you even know if the person teaching the class is an OTO member? Why jump to such silly conclusions. If you really want to know more about this class, look for the article "Thelema in the Classroom" in the Journal of Thelemic Studies II:2 which comes out today (March 20)

IAO131

You mean UC is not University of Caliphornia!?


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 461
21/03/2009 2:32 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
"IAO131" wrote:
Agreed completely.

Zain: You jump to conclusions irrationally which shows the lack of actual thought put into this subject. You really think this class taught at UC Berkeley is a front for recruiting for the 'Caliphate'? How do you figure? Do you even know if the person teaching the class is an OTO member? Why jump to such silly conclusions. If you really want to know more about this class, look for the article "Thelema in the Classroom" in the Journal of Thelemic Studies II:2 which comes out today (March 20)

IAO131

You mean UC is not University of Caliphornia!?

Funny, but huh? How do you mean?

IAO131


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