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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
08/01/2010 8:31 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:

Thelema and faith:

"Thelema is a law of nature. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity,

causes, principles, or beliefs." (Source: http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Arguments_against_Thelema_being_a_religion ).

That Thelemia is faith based is clear from the above quoted argument against Thelema being a religion. To argue that people have the Will like a law of nature is to argue a metaphysical position, and involves/takes faith in said metaphysical position. That is, faith in the universal validity and all encompassing quality of a metaphysical construct called "The Law of Thelema".

That's a very creative interpretation to consider a statement that includes " It does not require faith..." as being faith based. How is it faith based if it does not require faith? That statement does not require belief, acceptance, or obediance. It is not faith based in any way at all. The statement can be viewed as a postulate open to experimentation to see, by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself. See gurugeorge's excellent recent post where he mentions postulates and the scientific method for Thelema.

Laws of nature don't require faith. As someone else pointed out, the Law of Gravity works whether one knows about it, or not. If you throw something out the window, it will fall toward the ground without any need for faith in the Law of Gravity. The same applies for Thelema. Many people apply the principle of Will in their life and many attempt to stay true to themselves, what we called aligned to True Will, without ever having heard of Crowley or Thelema.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Earlier, more than once, you compared Thelema to Christianity and Islam, NOT to something along what Christianity originally was before being corrupted.

Comparing something to something else is not the same as stating that both things are the same.

Who said it was? You favorably compared Thelema to those old aeon religions to support your contention that Thelema is a religion.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Can you provide one quote supporting this idea that Crowley intended to create a faith-based community?

Crowley and faith:

*"UNITY is the principle and the synthesis of numbers; it is the idea of God and of man; it is the alliance of reason and of faith.

Faith cannot be opposed to reason;[my emphasis] it is made necessary by love, it is identical with hope." [And later:] "Faith begins where science ends. To enlarge the scope of science is apparently to diminish that of faith; but in reality, it is to enlarge it in equal proportion, for it is to amplify its base[my emphasis]."

(Source: The Key of the Mysteries, by Eliphas Levi, translated by A. Crowley, Crowley considered himself a re incarnation of Eliphas Levi).

So maybe Eliphas Levi wanted a faith based community, who knows. I certainly can't tell from this quote. Just because AC considered himself EL's reincarnation doesn't mean he agreed with everything Levi expounded. For example, he rejected Levi's Tree of Life tarot attributions though he tried to rationalize why EL gave those attributions.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
*To Crowley faith had to "mean experience", that is "the direct experience of spiritual truth",[my emphasis]... "to have any sensible meaning at all."

(Source: Eight Lectures on Yoga ). This is spiritual (thus religious) esotericism, and not non-religious/-spiritual esotericism.

"The direct experience of spiritual truth," I would call gnosis or mysticism. Yes, it can also occur in the religious context but its occurance is not dependent on participation in any religion. Agnostics and atheists can directly experience spiritual truths (so can little children, but I digress) without having to join up with any religion.

Can you tell me exactly where you found the quote, "To Crowley faith had to "mean experience"? Eight Lectures on Yoga were lectures Crowley gave, so it seems odd that he would refer to himself in the third person in this way. Perhaps from the introduction written by someone else? I'd like to see the context.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
*For Crowley mystical experiences should not be taken at face value, but critiqued and experimented with in order to arrive at religious truth, therefor Crowley made the famouse motto: "the method of science, the aim of religion"[my emphasis]. This is clearly religious mysticism.

Yes, the method of science not the method of faith. I interpret the 'aim of religion' as applying to individuals not to mass sociological movements. The aim of religion does not need or imply organized religion. Myself and many others would say that organized religion only gets in the way of the aim of religion.

You can call it religious mysticism but that's characterizing it as a particular type of mysticism - hence you're calling it mysticism not religion. I would call it applied mysticism.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Crowley's faith-based community was based on faith in gnosis, that is, faith in the possibility of "direct experience of spiritual truth."

Says who?

"zardoz" wrote:
Or a quote to support your notion that Crowley actively worked to organize a religious movement or wanted one organized?
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Let me sum up some:

"After Crowley became a Magus [under is stay in the USA during WWI]Thelema changed from being an essence religion

to becoming an open and organized religion ruled by an elite who practiced it as an essence religion

. This is what is called the Blue Equinox model of the O.T.O., a model Crowley would continue to tweak until his death, ending with a strict focus on the Gnostic Mass and community organizing along Thelemic lines, training only the leaders in what he called technical subjects."

This is someone's unsupported interpretation. Somehow AC managed to sneak in a classic work on the tarot ( Book of Thoth) and profound beginning magical instruction ( Magick Without Tears) despite his ' strict focus on the Gnostic Mass.'

In a letter Crowley wrote in 1941 e.v. to Karl Germer about him taking chargecus on the Gnostic Mass and community organizing along Thelemic lines, training only the leaders in what he called technical subjects."

In a letter Crowley wrote in 1941 e.v. to Karl Germer about him taking charge of the Order and revising it, it is noted that the broad public association would be organized through the Gnostic Mass. In a letter to Grady McMurtry dated 2. August 1945 e.v., the stated object is "To bring the Law of Light, Life, Love and Liberty to Humanity." Here he outlines a system for organizing a community of Thelemites with an outer and public aspect organized through the Gnostic Catholic Church."

(From: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com ).

"wellredwellbred" wrote:

To AL III,22:

Our religion therefore, for the People, is the Cult of the Sun,[my emphasis] who is our particular star of the Body of Nuit, from whom, in the strictest scientific sense, come this earth, a chilled spark of Him, and all our Light and Life.

Seems to me that he's using the term religion in a general sense for descriptive purposes. Nothing about organizing a movement, faith, or trying to convert people to a new religion.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
If Crowley felt that "Religion" did not always adequately apply to Liber AL and Thelema, it appears to me from the above that the only reason for such hesitancy would be the abuse and limitation of the word "religion" by others. He clearly thought that Thelema was a perfection of "Religion" or, at least, more of the same gone farther in the same direction.

Perhaps in a general sense. His thoughts about religion don't translate into organizing a relgious movement.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Since the question of Thelema as religion can also be addressed from witnesses contemporary to Crowley, I quote a letter from Frieda Harris during Crowley's last years of life. This letter is mostly filled with Frieda going on about Crowley's asinine behavior, but she does state on page 2: "I have no quarrel with him. I don't much care if he wants the copyright (to the Thoth Tarot) but I do care if it gets into the hands of the religious body he mis-conducts in California, & that is what he imagines is his duty to do. They are a collection of exotic idiots...""

Ok, I concede. Freida Harris called the Agape Lodge a religious body therefore that makes Thelema a religious movement. 🙄

(Source: http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/module-subjects-viewpage-pageid-123.phtml Thelema as Religion - Background Articles :: lashtal.com :: Home ... Thelema as Religion by Bill Heidrick).

Crowley used the majority of his inheritance disseminating his views, and obviously until the end of his life - as seen in source material quoted above from a witness contemporary to him - took great interest in his organisation.

"zardoz" wrote:
Membership in the O.T.O. seems a very narrow and limited criteria of measurement for judging the success or failure of Thelema as a cultural movement. Why not look at everyone and anyone who has been influenced by Thelemic principles whether they know it under that name or not? Paul McCartney is quoted as basically attributing the Beatles phenomena to magick. There's some numbers for you - how many people were profoundly affected by listening to the Beatles, or to Led Zeppelin?
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
What you describe is not Thelema as a cultural movement in the organizational meaning of the word movement, but Thelema as a cultural phenomeon, or rather a subcultural phenomeon with regard to how few who associate the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or David Bowie for that matter, with Magick and/or Thelema.

What I'm describing is Thelema as a magical current. The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will. The obvious example is the changes that occurred in the cultural explosion of the 1960's which affected thousands or millions of people. This cultural explosion appeared very aligned to Thelemic principals. Hardly a subcultural phenomena.

To demand that people read Crowley or study Thelema or join the OTO in order to be Thelemic is to miss the point entirely. It's like seeing a man pointing to the sky and saying that the only way you can see the sky is by looking at that man.

This is all the time I have to reply for now.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
08/01/2010 10:53 pm  

Crowley’s efforts to organize Thelema into a religion notwithstanding, I suspect Thelema will not succeed as an organized religion on the following grounds:

1. If “There is no bond that can unite the divided but love”, the Thelemic approach to sexuality takes away the incentive and glue holding successful religions together. In Mormonism, for example, the sacred marriage between a couple – which I believe is consolidated by Masonic-like oaths – is central and foundational to Mormonism, a conservative, wealthy and growing religion – now at 14 million – with a relatively low divorce rate (incidentally KCHGA is vaguely hinted at throughout the Book of Mormon, though not nearly as expounded upon as by Crowley).

2. Becoming a born-again Thelemite cannot be codified into a ritual of repenting of your sins and asking Aiwass into your heart as Lord and Saviour. Or attending a certain number of Gnostic Masses. If one looks at how many years it took Crowley to become converted to his own religion, this indicates the difficulty of turning Thelema into an organized religion. The knowing and doing of one’s True Will may be a life-long process.

3. The idea that each person’s True Will is unique to their star and orbit, by definition, makes the concept of ecclesiastical authority somewhat rather problematic. I say “somewhat” because I do not regard Thelema to be pure anarchism or anti-social.

4. Crowley’s cultivation of an antinomian/diabolical image – which, while it might have been fashionable and bohemian for the fin-de-siecle Satanism of his time, is completely out of touch in our age of AIDs, fundamentalist terrorism and paranoia. Seriously would you want your boss or friends to know you belong to a religion whose Prophet claimed to have sacrificed on average “150 children per year” – especially when there may be criminals who are not joking and intent on committing such crimes? I regard Crowley’s diabolicism of his early years and organization of Thelema into a religion in his later years as two sides of the same coin. Nevertheless I still prefer Crowley to someone like LRH who whitewashed his history to consolidate his reputation as a Friend of humanity and founder of Scientology.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 3:39 am  

First, an aside. "Christianity is Dead, Thelema Lives", is the title of one of the new threads on this forum. This reminds me of getting the same amusing

message from Bill Heidrick (an OTO member of some note ❗ ), trough e-mail correspondance. Amusing in what way? In the way that the tiniest little dog

barks intensely at by far the biggest dog of all. 😀

"Patriarch156" wrote:
If you need to reference my words, by all means do so, but do not editorialize it to fit your own points and points of views. I do not

think that these are unreasonable demands that are difficult to meet. Please do so in the future.

Your demands are reasonable, and I shall try to keep my insertions into your words in brackets to a minimum, and then only to correct obvious spelling

errors.

Thanks by the way for your mention of the study by Dr. Andrew Newberg,"haKthis been published in book form, if yes, under what title? This might be
literature for some informative reading under my nearly approaching long flights to, from, and within India. 🙂 .

In your blog (source: "To what end" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/3492.html ) you write:

"I think there are far different forces at work than ideology behind mankind's genocidal tendencies and violation of civil liberties."

*Would you care to be more clear about these forces and/or come with some suggested literature in this regard?

"zardoz" wrote:
That's a very creative interpretation to consider a statement that includes " It does not require faith..." as being faith based. How is it faith

based if it does not require faith? That statement does not require belief, acceptance, or obediance. It is not faith based in any way at all. The

statement can be viewed as a postulate open to experimentation to see, by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself. See gurugeorge's

excellent recent post where he mentions postulates and the scientific method for Thelema.

Laws of nature don't require faith.

Claiming the "Law of Thelema" as a law of nature - lacks falsifiability, mainly because the terms are so vague, but also because it seems pretty difficult to

conceive of any possible experiment to test it. Because such a claim is both lacking in stringency and in verifiability, /it must be based on faith./

You write that this viewpoint "can be viewed as a postulate open to experimentation to see, by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself."

But "finding out by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself", does not mean that this Law is verifiable like "a law of nature."

*You mention "gurugeorge's excellent recent post where he mentions postulates and the scientific method for Thelema." I have already stated that I like this

gurugeorge's most recent posting in this thread, and I see it as containing indications of how Thelema might mitigate its lack of verifiability.

*tai's most recent posting in this thread, I see as containing indications of why Thelema - in its present form - will most likely never achieve any substantial numerical success on

an organizational level.

"zardoz" wrote:
Can you provide one quote supporting this idea that Crowley intended to create a faith-based community? Or a quote to support your notion

that Crowley actively worked to organize a religious movement or wanted one organized?

"You have to realize that our numbers imply are too small. As an example, going over the numbers Crowley are using, a fully established Grand Lodge would

have over 11 000 members alone and if it had a functioning Church for the general populace the numbers would be well over 25 000 members. This btw is still

an extremely small religious group when you are talking national scale."

(Source: "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html ).

In the following Crowley commentary to AL III,22: "Our religion therefore, for the People, is the Cult of the Sun",[my emphasis] I interprete Crowley

as referring to the majority of people, or people in general. That is, according to Crowley the religion of Thelema shall for the majority of people - the

well over 25 000 members he evisioned for a functioning church as mentioned in the source above - be "the Cult of the Sun", for the initiated minority of

Thelemeites, the religion of Thelema shall be something more then "the Cult of the Sun".

"zardoz" wrote:
zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 22, 2009 - 09:54 AM "I don't know of any religions that don't require faith, do you?"

A gnostic faith or religion can contain claims about not requiering faith, and claims about instead being based on self experienced spiritual/religious
knowledge.

"zardoz" wrote:
Can you tell me exactly where you found the quote, "To Crowley faith had to "mean experience"? Eight Lectures on Yoga were lectures

Crowley gave, so it seems odd that he would refer to himself in the third person in this way. Perhaps from the introduction written by someone else? I'd

like to see the context.

I found it in http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Arguments_against_Thelema_being_a_religion

It its original form it goes like this:

"To have any sensible meaning at all, faith must mean experience, and that view is in exact accord with the conclusion to which we were led in my last

lecture. Nothing is any use to us unless it be a certainty unshakeable by criticism of any kind, and there is only one thing in the universe which complies

with these conditions: the direct experience of spiritual truth. Here, and here only, do we find a position in which the great religious minds of all times

and all climes coincide."

"zardoz" wrote:
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Crowley's faith-based community was based on faith in gnosis, that is, faith in the possibility of "direct experience of spiritual truth."

Says who?

Say I, based on what A. Crowley wrote himself in Eight Lectures on Yoga.

"zardoz" wrote:
zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 07:46 PM: "Thelema does not need to get systematized like any other organized religion. It's

system works with individuals, as per the A.'. A.'. The O.T.O. (any kind) has enough of a system for those wishing and willing to connect to a larger body."

A general attitude within Thelema of it not needing to get systematized, will obviously hinder it from achieving any significant organizational success, and
will make it remain an incoherent atomised subcultural phenomenon.

"zardoz" wrote:
Ok, I concede. Freida Harris called the Agape Lodge a religious body therefore that makes Thelema a religious movement. 🙄

Yes, as a contemporary and close witness to A. Crowely, she has great value as a source on him. ❗

"zardoz" wrote:
The aim of religion does not need or imply organized religion. Myself and many others would say that organized religion only gets in the way

of the aim of religion.

You can call it religious mysticism but that's characterizing it as a particular type of mysticism - hence you're calling it mysticism not religion. I would

call it applied mysticism.

I call Crowley's Thelemic mysticism with the aim of religion for religious mysticism, I characterize it as this particular type of mysticism to have some

stringency in my definitions and my reasoning, thus hopefully avoiding being too vague. 😉

"zardoz" wrote:
What I'm describing is Thelema as a magical current. The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will. The obvious
example is the changes that occurred in the cultural explosion of the 1960's which affected thousands or millions of people. This cultural explosion
appeared very aligned to Thelemic principals. Hardly a subcultural phenomena.

This claimed cause-effect corrolation between Thelema and "the cultural explosion of the 1960's", is so vague and far-fetched that it must - or can only - be taken on faith.

"zardoz" wrote:
To demand that people read Crowley or study Thelema or join the OTO in order to be Thelemic is to miss the point entirely. It's like seeing
a man pointing to the sky and saying that the only way you can see the sky is by looking at that man.

Well, sorry for my insistence on verifiability and stringency. 🙄

"zardoz" wrote:
Thelema is not a religious movement. There is no effort to convert or attract new followers[zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 11, 2009 -

08:10 PM:].

*As already mentioned, Crowley used the majority of his inheritance disseminating his views. This dissemination had no significant success in his lifetime,

when Crowley was often at best considered a most wicked and naughty man, and at worst a raving lunatic not to be taken seriously 😈 .

Safe to say is it that Thelema will have no great success as an organized movement, without enough substantial marketing to supply it with a steady and

increased supply of returning customers.

Sabazius, a member of some significanse in the largest OTO of today ❗ - who have been most helpful to me in e-mail correspondance - covers this

subjectmatter - about attracting new followers - in the quoted statement below:

"Notes on Promulgation of the Law of Thelema
As you know, the mission of Ordo Templi Orientis U.S.A. is “to effect and promote the doctrines and practices of the philosophical and religious system known

as Thelema, with particular emphasis on cultivating the ideals of individual liberty, self-discipline, self- knowledge, and universal brotherhood”
(httpp://oto-usa.org/mission.html). Another phrase of similar meaning frequently used by Crowley (e.g., in Liber CCC) is “promulgation of the Law of

Thelema.”

The word “promulgate” is a term used primarily in in the legal profession and means to publicly declare or announce a decree, rule, law, code, or

constitution, thereby putting it into effect. The etymology of the word is interesting: 1530, from L. promulgatus, pp. of promulgare “make publicly known,”

perhaps from provulgare, from pro- “forth” + vulgare “make public, publish.” Or the second element may be from mulgere “to milk,” used metaphorically for

“cause to emerge.” —Online Etymology Dictionary, Douglas Harper The use of the term “promulgation,” then, carries the meaning of putting the Law into effect

simply through the act of proclaiming it, of “putting it out there,” of disseminating it. So, as members of O.T.O., we serve as individual and collective
proclaimers—preachers—of the Law of Liberty throughout the world. While we have no duty to “convert,” we do have a duty to disseminate the Law as widely as

possible throughout human society, not just within specific sub-cultures, classes, and social groups. Therefore, diversity among the membership is something

to be sought after and actively encouraged. We would do well to view ourselves as infiltrators of all aspects of society, bringing Light wherever we go. As

such, we need members who belong to all professions, political parties, and social institutions; who can travel freely among all social strata; and who

represent all cultural and ethnic groups. It does not serve our cause to associate only with people who look like us, talk like us, and share our personal

tastes, interests, and opinions. Love is the law, love under will. Fraternally, Sabazius."

(Source: Vol 10 #4 February 2009 e.v., the most current issue [online] of Agapé, the newsletter of the U.S. Grand Lodge of Ordo Templi Orientis,

distributed free of charge to all initiates. Here is a hyperlink to this issue: http://lib.oto-usa.org/agape/agape.10.4.pdf ).

"tai" wrote:
Regarding the anti-rational message of the Book of the Law, we need only look to history to recognize the rationalism of the Enlightenment terminates

in the Holocaust. What renders it incomprehensible is the rational and efficient manner in which trainloads of people were processed through IBM punch card

machines, assigned numbers, and disposed of. Genocidal accounting. Kafka’s writing is prophetic in that he recognized the labyrinthine nature of bureaucracy,

the rational efficiency of modernity, wherein each person is a cog in the machine, punching numbers and carrying out orders, unaware or responsible for what

might be going on. The nightmarish scenario of The Trial is that a person accused of an unspecified crime, being a civilized and rational person,

cooperates to the end and executed without struggle - the betrayal from turning Daath into a false Crown.

In contrast the light of the New Aeon comes from the Supernals. This does not mean rationalism should be rejected completely, but that dogs of reason are

happy only when commanded with a firm hand. Sit, heel, transcribe. They yearn to find their proper place below the understanding and intuition of

master and somewhere above the rest of the pack.

Primitive "dogs of unreason" are as good as modernized "dogs of reason" in comitting highly effective(numerically speaking) genocides, see for example the

genocide in Rwanda 1994, or the one in Ustasha controlled Crotia during WWII from 1941 to 1945, or the Romanian genocide of Jews in eastern

Moldavia/Bessarabia 1941, all three were in great part done with knifes and clubs by wandering crowds.

"tai" wrote:
True Will is grounded in Kether/Jechidah and expressed through Chokmah/Chiah and therefore the Supernals is the realm of freedom. Initiation is

an inward journey toward absolute freedom – “absolute” in the sense the distinction between inner and outer is dissolved (as one person put it, a journey

from the one to the One).

Now, I am not so interested in discussing IF this is a lot of faith-based reasoning around the meaning of initiation in Thelema, and more interested in

adding it to my present question: Has initiation been a part of Thelema(as constituded by A. Crowley) from the beginning, and is initiation an integral

part of Thelema?

That is, is initiation an intrinsic part of the organized Thelemic faith?


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thiebes
(@thiebes)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 164
09/01/2010 4:00 am  
"tai" wrote:
Crowley’s efforts to organize Thelema into a religion notwithstanding, I suspect Thelema will not succeed as an organized religion on the following grounds:

1. If “There is no bond that can unite the divided but love”, the Thelemic approach to sexuality takes away the incentive and glue holding successful religions together. In Mormonism, for example, the sacred marriage between a couple – which I believe is consolidated by Masonic-like oaths – is central and foundational to Mormonism, a conservative, wealthy and growing religion – now at 14 million – with a relatively low divorce rate (incidentally KCHGA is vaguely hinted at throughout the Book of Mormon, though not nearly as expounded upon as by Crowley).

Can you point us to any studies which show that monogamous, life-long marriage is a determining factor in the success of religious movements?

"tai" wrote:
2. Becoming a born-again Thelemite cannot be codified into a ritual of repenting of your sins and asking Aiwass into your heart as Lord and Saviour. Or attending a certain number of Gnostic Masses. If one looks at how many years it took Crowley to become converted to his own religion, this indicates the difficulty of turning Thelema into an organized religion. The knowing and doing of one’s True Will may be a life-long process.

Actually instead of repenting sins (which would be contrary to Thelemic teaching) we have from Crowley the suggestion of a renunciation of the slave gods. Such a ritual has been constructed by T Polyphilus and many Thelemites have engaged in it with enthusiasm Also in EGC there is the rite of Confirmation wherein the confirmand affirms their will to be a soldier of Thelema.

http://www.hermetic.com/dionysos/slave.htm
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/confirm.htm

"tai" wrote:
3. The idea that each person’s True Will is unique to their star and orbit, by definition, makes the concept of ecclesiastical authority somewhat rather problematic. I say “somewhat” because I do not regard Thelema to be pure anarchism or anti-social.

I don't find any problems with it. Can you elaborate?

"tai" wrote:
4. Crowley’s cultivation of an antinomian/diabolical image – which, while it might have been fashionable and bohemian for the fin-de-siecle Satanism of his time, is completely out of touch in our age of AIDs, fundamentalist terrorism and paranoia. Seriously would you want your boss or friends to know you belong to a religion whose Prophet claimed to have sacrificed on average “150 children per year” – especially when there may be criminals who are not joking and intent on committing such crimes? I regard Crowley’s diabolicism of his early years and organization of Thelema into a religion in his later years as two sides of the same coin. Nevertheless I still prefer Crowley to someone like LRH who whitewashed his history to consolidate his reputation as a Friend of humanity and founder of Scientology.

I find this perspective sorely lacking in courage, frankly. The Jehovah's Witnesses died in concentration camps rather than denounce their beliefs, yet many Thelemites are afraid to even admit to their friends that they accept the Book of the Law as a way of life.

All my friends know about my religion, as do many of my clients. It has never been a problem for me.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 486
09/01/2010 6:29 am  
"thiebes" wrote:
All my friends know about my religion, as do many of my clients. It has never been a problem for me.

I second that. Even the private school where my daughter attends know about our religion (in fact since it is a School one has to apply to and that only has room for a few every year, we made sure that to write this down on the questionaire that we had to append our application. At our interview we were questioned about Thelema and provided them some booklets with Crowley's own words concerning it). It has never been a problem and my daughter has had a show and tell where she has explained about Thelema as she understands it and her family practice it.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3948
09/01/2010 1:17 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Ok, I concede. Freida Harris called the Agape Lodge a religious body therefore that makes Thelema a religious movement. 🙄

Yes, as a contemporary and close witness to A. Crowely, she has great value as a source on him.

No she doesn't. Despite the work on the Tarot deck, correspondence between the two shows that they were not very close, and on the contrary often at loggerheads. In a letter after Crowley's death, Germer asked her if she was a member of the O.T.O., and she could only suppose that she was. She told Germer that Gerald Gardner was the head of the O.T.O. in Europe, which was nonsense.

Whatever her strengths, best not to invoke Freida Harris as some sort of authority on Crowley. But then, this is typical of your approach, which often borders on dissembling.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 486
09/01/2010 1:47 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Your demands are reasonable, and I shall try to keep my insertions into your words in brackets to a minimum, and then only to correct obvious spelling errors.

Or a simple [sic] or if you think it is particularly glaring [SIC!] should suffice.

Thanks by the way for your mention of the study by Dr. Andrew Newberg,"haKthis been published in book form, if yes, under what title? This might be literature for some informative reading under my nearly approaching long flights to, from, and within India. 🙂 .

You may find Dr. Andrew Newberg's homepage here: http://www.andrewnewberg.com/

It contains many interesting links and comments about his work, including a section containing his peer-reviewed articles: http://www.andrewnewberg.com/pub.asp where you can find his article that among other things touches on glossolalia here: http://www.andrewnewberg.com/pdfs/2006/TonguesPaper.pdf

On Amazon you can find his books: http://www.amazon.com/Andrew-B.-Newberg/e/B001IGHSJQ/ref=sr_tc_tag_2

In your blog (source: "To what end" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/3492.html ) you write:

"I think there are far different forces at work than ideology behind mankind's genocidal tendencies and violation of civil liberties."

Would you care to be more clear about these forces and/or come with some suggested literature in this regard?

Historically the genocidal nature of Man is not localized in the form of religious instinct at all. In fact as The Black Book of Communism ( http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263044376&sr=8-1 ) shows us and as to a lesser extent the French Reign of Terror also teach us the biggest violations of Civil Liberties has come from Secular Atheist regimes. Though in a much more benign form we may only look to the current violations of civil liberties in France to see how the secular agenda tends to manifest itself even in these relatively "enlightened" times.

That being said I do not think that this is something inherent with secular or atheist agendas either, I only use it to point out how objectively speaking religion is a sidenote when it comes to atrocities. A more probable reason for this rather than ideology as some have argued is the rise of the industrialist states and much more efficient means for comitting atrocities.

Genocidal tendencies seems to be hardwired into man as an animal, which is not surprising considering that any group of individuals that were not genetically inclined to be agressively territorial about property and ideology is rather likely to have been either annihilated or at best assimilated into a group that actually were.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 2:01 pm  

Thiebes:

Can you point us to any studies which show that monogamous, life-long marriage is a determining factor in the success of religious movements?

I can’t cite studies off the top of my head. But if you want to discuss factors that constitute a “successful” religious movement, it’s a pretty common sense observation.

I don't find any problems with it. Can you elaborate?

Sorry - I should have just written “authority” instead of “ecclesiastical authority”. The uniqueness of everyone’s True Will implies one should critically question Crowley’s authority and methods left behind - starting from the question: are his writings accurate reflections of an objective reality or a record of his subjectivity? Are the table of correspondences in 777 a fairly accurate map of the collective unconscious or a map of Crowley’s historically-conditioned mind? Read his comments in MWT on the two ways to reality and nature of the HGA and you will find this indeterminate quality runs throughout his writings without ever resolving itself. That means each must find out for him or herself. I’ve had enough experience to know Crowley is giving an accurate account in certain libers, but a key realization was that my True Will is not necessarily the same as Crowley’s True Will. For me it’s not enough that something is true (i.e. the realm of the Qlippoth, existence of spirits, demons, evil, reality of magick etc), but once confirmed, to ask how that truth is relevant or of value to my path.

All my friends know about my religion, as do many of my clients. It has never been a problem for me.

Yes, but you live in an occult neighborhood in Portland, have your network-support of Thelemite friends and your role within the Thelemic community. The legacy of the 1960s counter-culture on the West Coast, which continues today with the Burning Man subculture, means that non-Thelemites are, if not friendly, at least tolerant of your beliefs. In many ways Thelema is a good match for American ideals of libertarianism and self-reliance. Patriarch156 - I'm happy things have been smooth for you, too.

Let's just say where I live in the EU is different –people in these parts have good reason to be wary of any hint of extremism due to the not-so distant past. It was only after educating myself on the legal system and Universal Declaration of Human Rights – drafted after witnessing the horrors of WW2 concentration camps - that I realized a legal framework for Thelema already exists.

I find this perspective sorely lacking in courage, frankly. The Jehovah's Witnesses died in concentration camps rather than denounce their beliefs, yet many Thelemites are afraid to even admit to their friends that they accept the Book of the Law as a way of life.

If they are afraid, one must question whether they truly accept it – especially the hard-to-swallow chapter 3 and, if they did, whether one would want to be in proximity of such person! That JW example and dying for one’s belief sounds like a misunderstanding of Thelema - like one set of religious beliefs being replaced by another religion. If your relationship to Thelema and TBOTL is faith-based, its no different from Old Aeon slave-thinking. On the other hand if you have a relationship with your HGA, you deal with each situation as it arises in the same way one faces initiations and overcomes ordeals on the path – knowing nothing happens by chance. Whatever courage one has or does not have is in direct correspondence to their level of initiation. TBOTL is undoubtedly a founding text for a religion, complete with rituals, but there is nothing in there to indicate that it was meant to be a growing religion (Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!). On the contrary “Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known”. It is intensely personal.

For myself I regard Thelema as something fundamental about human nature and therefore true regardless of which Aeon we are in. I see little difference between Thelemic concepts and underlying principles in many other religious systems for that matter. Now I’ll concede this “fundamental” may be religious in nature – my own experiences in magick have led me to become religious - but I prefer to commune with the gods in private. But there is a world of difference between knowing certain truths and accepting them on faith. Truth does not need to be defended – it simply is. More importantly just because it is true doesn't mean that must be the path you take. Crowley regarded Thelema as the answer to questions philosophical, practical, natural, religious and cosmological. So it obviously goes far beyond “religion” in the conventional sense of the term.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 486
09/01/2010 2:15 pm  
"tai" wrote:
Crowley regarded Thelema as the answer to questions philosophical, practical, natural, religious and cosmological. So it obviously goes far beyond “religion” in the conventional sense of the term.

Actually this is extremely common among most religions. It is only the modern secular world that tends to discriminate between religious and secular spheres. Pope Benedict argues the same about Christianity. What differentiates old religions from new religions however is as Olav Hammer showed in his seminal study Claiming Knowledge the fact that in order to legitimate their claims in a secular world, they tend to legitimate them through secular claims by appealing to science (i.e. what they are engaging in is scientific in one way or the other).

The fact remains however that outside the outer college work in the A.'.A.'. there is very little that is scientific in any conventional sense of the word in Thelema and even that is not scientific in the Popperian sense of the word. Moreover it never functioned that way and though work are under way to reestablish these structures in just this way, it has not really reached the level that it can be called anything but pre-scientific. Finally as I have noted I have yet to see anything anyone has claimed in this thread that could properly be called science.

I agree that there is a difference between faith and certainty (even if we use the principle behind it and not limit it to the sense Crowley interpreted it in his commentaries, which would be essentially belief fortified by experience about the continuity of consciousness across incarnations), but the fact remains that most religions contains such an facet and encourages it. It is only among the secular members of large groups that do not enforce strictness to the degree that these members defect that this is not emphasied. As I have pointed out even the Roman Catholic variant of Christianity emphasize the direct experience with the "numinous."

Where do you think Crowley's criticism of Christians who are only Christians on Sunday comes from?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 3:13 pm  

In a recent posting by MichaelStaley's I am provided with correction[-s] as regarding my use of F. Harris as a contemporary witness on A. Crowley. Thanks for this.

Thanks also for the further information provided in a recent posting by Patriarch156, and for which I requested.

I wonder if A. Crowley designed the Gnostic Catholic Church - for such a functioning Church he envisioned well over 25 000 members - as a bait for attracting the somewhat lower number of people - Crowley envisioned that a fully established Grand Lodge would have over 11 000 members alone - interested in initiation into gnosis within the OTO?

(Source for Crowly's envisioned numbers: "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html ).

I also wonder if Crowley's purpose for designing the the Gnostic Catholic Church, fits together with his viewpoint that the religion of Thelema shall for the majority of people be "the Cult of the Sun", as indicated in the following Crowley commentary to AL III,22: "Our religion therefore, for the People, is the Cult of the Sun..., "?

thiebes' and Patriarch156's statements about their life situation[-s] as practicing Thelemites, have validity as individual witness accounts.

More statistically significanct data with respect to the life situation[-s] of practicing Thelemites, will demand a large number of Thelemites responding. Such data should take into account the country location of various Thelemites. As this forum has recently had some success with over 200 members replying to a questionnaire, this might be something that could be done through this site?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
09/01/2010 10:58 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:

"zardoz" wrote:
That's a very creative interpretation to consider a statement that includes " It does not require faith..." as being faith based. How is it faith

based if it does not require faith? That statement does not require belief, acceptance, or obediance. It is not faith based in any way at all. The

statement can be viewed as a postulate open to experimentation to see, by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself. See gurugeorge's

excellent recent post where he mentions postulates and the scientific method for Thelema.

Laws of nature don't require faith.

Claiming the "Law of Thelema" as a law of nature - lacks falsifiability, mainly because the terms are so vague, but also because it seems pretty difficult to

conceive of any possible experiment to test it. Because such a claim is both lacking in stringency and in verifiability, /it must be based on faith./

You write that this viewpoint "can be viewed as a postulate open to experimentation to see, by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself."

But "finding out by experience, if the Law is valid or not, for oneself", does not mean that this Law is verifiable like "a law of nature."

Any so-called law of nature can be verified or invalidated through repeated experimentation, observation and correlation. But you can take it up with whomever made the claim. I don’t know its source. You were the one who posted this claim.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
*You mention "gurugeorge's excellent recent post where he mentions postulates and the scientific method for Thelema." I have already stated that I like this

gurugeorge's most recent posting in this thread, and I see it as containing indications of how Thelema might mitigate its lack of verifiability.

G’s post clearly shows how to verify Thelemic practice, for oneself, through the method of science. Lack of verifiability is only a problem for those who won’t do the work.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
*tai's most recent posting in this thread, I see as containing indications of why Thelema - in its present form - will most likely never achieve any substantial numerical success on

an organizational level.

I don’t know what you mean by “substantial numerical success”? Success at what? Having a large number of followers? That only seems successful for those in control.
I’ve already shown the substantial numerical success of communication of Thelemic principles.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Can you provide one quote supporting this idea that Crowley intended to create a faith-based community? Or a quote to support your notion

that Crowley actively worked to organize a religious movement or wanted one organized?

"You have to realize that our numbers imply are too small. As an example, going over the numbers Crowley are using, a fully established Grand Lodge would

have over 11 000 members alone and if it had a functioning Church for the general populace the numbers would be well over 25 000 members. This btw is still

an extremely small religious group when you are talking national scale."

(Source: "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html ).

This quote fails to show Crowley’s intentions, it shows someone’s interpretation of his intentions. Someone who probably never had any direct contact with him. I can only assume that you can’t provide a quote from Crowley or someone that was close to him.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Can you tell me exactly where you found the quote, "To Crowley faith had to "mean experience"? Eight Lectures on Yoga were lectures

Crowley gave, so it seems odd that he would refer to himself in the third person in this way. Perhaps from the introduction written by someone else? I'd

like to see the context.

I found it in http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Arguments_against_Thelema_being_a_religion

It its original form it goes like this:

"To have any sensible meaning at all, faith must mean experience, and that view is in exact accord with the conclusion to which we were led in my last

lecture. Nothing is any use to us unless it be a certainty unshakeable by criticism of any kind, and there is only one thing in the universe which complies

with these conditions: the direct experience of spiritual truth. Here, and here only, do we find a position in which the great religious minds of all times

and all climes coincide."

"zardoz" wrote:
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Crowley's faith-based community was based on faith in gnosis, that is, faith in the possibility of "direct experience of spiritual truth."

Says who?

Say I, based on what A. Crowley wrote himself in Eight Lectures on Yoga.

Quite an imaginative extrapolation. The 8 lectures quote doesn’t even hint at faith-based communities or faith in possibilities. I see the quote as him redefining faith along more scientific and verifiable grounds. He’s is not using the superstitious belief definition of faith which he rejects more than once in his writings.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 07:46 PM: "Thelema does not need to get systematized like any other organized religion. It's

system works with individuals, as per the A.'. A.'. The O.T.O. (any kind) has enough of a system for those wishing and willing to connect to a larger body."

A general attitude within Thelema of it not needing to get systematized, will obviously hinder it from achieving any significant organizational success, and
will make it remain an incoherent atomised subcultural phenomenon.

Yeah, that’s what they said about Christianity before it got organized. Thank God they finally got together at the Council of Nicea and systematized it. Sure attracted some big numbers after that though they lost a few during the Inquisition.

"zardoz" wrote:
What I'm describing is Thelema as a magical current. The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will. The obvious
example is the changes that occurred in the cultural explosion of the 1960's which affected thousands or millions of people. This cultural explosion
appeared very aligned to Thelemic principals. Hardly a subcultural phenomena.

This claimed cause-effect corrolation between Thelema and "the cultural explosion of the 1960's", is so vague and far-fetched that it must - or can only - be taken on faith.

I didn’t claim Thelema caused the ‘60’s. It certainly had a strigently obvious and verifiable influence. It’s a whole other subject. Timothy Leary felt his work was the continuation of Crowley’s to give one small example.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
To demand that people read Crowley or study Thelema or join the OTO in order to be Thelemic is to miss the point entirely. It's like seeing
a man pointing to the sky and saying that the only way you can see the sky is by looking at that man.

Well, sorry for my insistence on verifiability and stringency. 🙄

What are you attempting to stringently verify ? How does that aid you with the progression of your work?

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Safe to say is it that Thelema will have no great success as an organized movement, without enough substantial marketing to supply it with a steady and

increased supply of returning customers.

Thelema works whether it’s a successful organized movement or not.
It seems that when you say Thelema, you really mean the OTO.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Sabazius, a member of some significanse in the largest OTO of today ❗ - who have been most helpful to me in e-mail correspondance - covers this

subjectmatter - about attracting new followers - in the quoted statement below:

"Notes on Promulgation of the Law of Thelema
As you know, the mission of Ordo Templi Orientis U.S.A. is “to effect and promote the doctrines and practices of the philosophical and religious system known

as Thelema, with particular emphasis on cultivating the ideals of individual liberty, self-discipline, self- knowledge, and universal brotherhood”
(httpp://oto-usa.org/mission.html). Another phrase of similar meaning frequently used by Crowley (e.g., in Liber CCC) is “promulgation of the Law of

Thelema.”

The word “promulgate” is a term used primarily in in the legal profession and means to publicly declare or announce a decree, rule, law, code, or

constitution, thereby putting it into effect. The etymology of the word is interesting: 1530, from L. promulgatus, pp. of promulgare “make publicly known,”

perhaps from provulgare, from pro- “forth” + vulgare “make public, publish.” Or the second element may be from mulgere “to milk,” used metaphorically for

“cause to emerge.” —Online Etymology Dictionary, Douglas Harper The use of the term “promulgation,” then, carries the meaning of putting the Law into effect

simply through the act of proclaiming it, of “putting it out there,” of disseminating it. So, as members of O.T.O., we serve as individual and collective
proclaimers—preachers—of the Law of Liberty throughout the world. While we have no duty to “convert,” we do have a duty to disseminate the Law as widely as

possible throughout human society, not just within specific sub-cultures, classes, and social groups. Therefore, diversity among the membership is something

to be sought after and actively encouraged. We would do well to view ourselves as infiltrators of all aspects of society, bringing Light wherever we go. As

such, we need members who belong to all professions, political parties, and social institutions; who can travel freely among all social strata; and who

represent all cultural and ethnic groups. It does not serve our cause to associate only with people who look like us, talk like us, and share our personal

tastes, interests, and opinions. Love is the law, love under will. Fraternally, Sabazius."

(Source: Vol 10 #4 February 2009 e.v., the most current issue [online] of Agapé, the newsletter of the U.S. Grand Lodge of Ordo Templi Orientis,

distributed free of charge to all initiates. Here is a hyperlink to this issue: http://lib.oto-usa.org/agape/agape.10.4.pdf ).

Your quote starts with “As you know, the mission of Ordo Templi Orientis U.S.A….”
So yes, you’re talking about the OTO not about Thelema as a whole. You want to stringently verify and increase membership in the OTO.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/01/2010 6:55 am  

All emphasizes are mine in this posting.

A law of nature is demonstratably verifiable through testing and/or experimentation.

Is "the Law of Thelema" demonstratably verifiable through testing and/or experimentation?

If you claim "the Law of Thelema" to be a (demonstratable) law of nature, the burden of proof is on you, and not on me for not wanting do the work of verifying Thelema for myself, "through the method of science."

I predict that you will have problems demonstratably verifying Thelema as a law of nature, as it is not a law of nature, but a metaphysical construct, a metaphysical construct that you show some strong faith in.

"zardoz" wrote:
Can you provide one quote supporting this idea that Crowley intended to create a faith-based community? Or a quote to support your notion that Crowley actively worked to organize a religious movement or wanted one organized?

"You have to realize that our numbers imply[sic] are too small. As an example, going over the numbers Crowley are using, a fully established Grand Lodge would have over 11 000 members alone and if it had a functioning Church for the general populace the numbers would be well over 25 000 members. This btw is still an extremely small religious group when you are talking national scale."

(Source: "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html ).

"zardoz" wrote:
This quote fails to show Crowley’s intentions, it shows someone’s interpretation of his intentions. Someone who probably never had any direct contact with him. I can only assume that you can’t provide a quote from Crowley or someone that was close to him.

[Sabazius writes:]In a diary entry for October 9, 1916 e.v. (unpublished), Crowley says, "O.T.O. Lodges, Profess-Houses etc. should always be oriented to Boleskine." In Chapter 23 of Magick Without Tears he says, "Remember that your `East', your Kiblah, is Boleskine House..."

Sabazius' explanation for the word Kibla: "The Arabic word Qiblah, or "Kiblah," refers to the holiest shrine of Islam."

And further Sabazius write: "Most religious systems include a similar concept. Christianity and Judaism have their Jerusalem or Mount Sinai, the Samaritans have their Mount Gerizim, Hinduism has its Mount Meru or Mount Kailasa, the Greeks had their Mount Olympus or the Omphalos at Delphi. Thelema has its Boleskine."

(Source: http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/kiblah.htm ).

Liber CXXIV:

An Epistle of Baphomet...,

It has seemed fitting to Us to explain in a familiar form and simple the general principles of the government of the Profess-Houses of our Holy Order, so that the Abbot and Abbess of every such house shall understand by what paths to pursue the great aims which inspire Us to the service of our Brethren.

5. There is no rule with regard to the degree of luxury to be observed in any Profess-House.

7. In the theory of the Order, the guest’s right to enter a Profess-House for the appointed period of three days, when the Lodge of the guest is in the same province as the Profess-House, or one month, when it is in a different province, is paramount, and overrides the right of the Abbot to close his door.

9. All residents in the Profess-Houses of the Order are formally bound to perform the four daily Salutations to the Sun as prescribed in Liber CC (Equinox Vol I, No. vi, p.29). The exception is, when actually engaged in a ceremony approved by the Order, such as initiation, invocation, or meditation.

10. The use of artificial light, except for ceremonial purposes, is to be discouraged in the Profess-Houses of the Order; for the Sun is the master of the cycle of life. The exception is when serious intellectual labour is being performed.

(Source: Liber CXXIV http://www.adastra-oto.org/docs/cxxiv.htm ).

Liber CI {Book 101}:

These Regulations Come into Force in Any District Where the Membership of the Order Exceeds One Thousand Souls

Issued by Order: BAPHOMET XI° O.T.O., HIBERNIAE IONAE ET OMNIUM BRITANNIARUM, REX SUMMUS SANCTISSIMUS

AN EPISTLE OF BAPHOMET....,

OF THE DUTIES OF THE BRETHREN

FOURTH HOUSE

9. Every Brother who may possess mines, land, or houses more than he can himself constantly occupy, should donate part of such mines or land, or one or more of such houses to the Order.

10. Property thus given will be administered if he desire it in his own interest, thus effecting a saving, since large estates are more economically handled than small. But the Order will use such property as may happen to lie idle for the moment in such ways as it may seem good, lending an unlet house (for example) to some Brother who is in need, or allowing an unused hall to be occupied by a Lodge.

11. (Yet in view of the great objects of the Order, endowment is welcome.)

FIFTH HOUSE

15. There is an especially sacred duty, which every Brother should fulfil, with regard to all children, those born without the Order included. This duty is to instruct them in the Law of Thelema, to teach them independence and freedom of thought and character, and to warn them that servility and cowardice are the most deadly diseases of the human soul.

TENTH HOUSE

38. If the mother that is to be have asserted her will to be so in contempt and defiance of the Tabus of the slave-gods, she is to be regarded as especially suitable to our Order, and the Master of the Lodge in her district shall offer to become, as it were, godfather to the child, who shall be trained specially, if the mother so wishes, as a servant of the Order, in one of its Profess-Houses.

41. Colleges of the Order will presently be established where the children of its members may be trained in all trades, businesses, and professions, and there they may study the liberal arts and humane letters, as well as our holy and arcane science. Brethren are expected to do all in their power to make possible the establishment of such Universities.

OF THE PRIVILEGES OF THE BRETHREN

FOURTH HOUSE

50. Brethren of advanced years and known merit who desire to follow the religious life may be asked to reside permanently in such houses.

FIFTH HOUSE

54. Children of all Brethren are entitled to the care of the Order, and arrangements will be made to educate them in certain of the Profess-Houses of the Order.

NINTH HOUSE

65. The Order teaches the only perfect and satisfactory system of philosoÿhy, religion, and science, leading its members step by step to knowledge and power hardly even dreamed of by the profane.

(Source: Liber CI {Book 101} http://sacred-texts.com/oto/lib101.htm These regulations first appeared in The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919)).


ReplyQuote
OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 501
10/01/2010 7:17 am  

"These regulations first appeared in The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919))."

Yes they did, didn't they.

You can look at this stuff in either of two ways; maybe more.

On the one hand it could be a far sighted vision of a glorious future years ahead of its time.

Alternatively it could be a well crafted fanciful crock of bullshit designed to bamboozle the freemasons of Detroit.

As buddha was saying to me just the other day: "O Munni Gimme Sum"

OK


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
10/01/2010 8:02 am  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
All emphasizes are mine in this posting.

A law of nature is demonstratably verifiable through testing and/or experimentation.

Is "the Law of Thelema" demonstratably verifiable through testing and/or experimentation?

If you claim "the Law of Thelema" to be a (demonstratable) law of nature, the burden of proof is on you, and not on me for not wanting do the work of verifying Thelema for myself, "through the method of science."

I predict that you will have problems demonstratably verifying Thelema as a law of nature, as it is not a law of nature, but a metaphysical construct, a metaphysical construct that you show some strong faith in.

You should try to pay better attention please. I made no such claim. You (emphasis mine) posted this claim made by someone else. I only suggested how one could go about verifying or invalidating it for oneself.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Can you provide one quote supporting this idea that Crowley intended to create a faith-based community? Or a quote to support your notion that Crowley actively worked to organize a religious movement or wanted one organized?

"You have to realize that our numbers imply[sic] are too small. As an example, going over the numbers Crowley are using, a fully established Grand Lodge would have over 11 000 members alone and if it had a functioning Church for the general populace the numbers would be well over 25 000 members. This btw is still an extremely small religious group when you are talking national scale."

(Source: "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;" in: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html ).

"zardoz" wrote:
This quote fails to show Crowley’s intentions, it shows someone’s interpretation of his intentions. Someone who probably never had any direct contact with him. I can only assume that you can’t provide a quote from Crowley or someone that was close to him.

[Sabazius writes:]In a diary entry for October 9, 1916 e.v. (unpublished), Crowley says, "O.T.O. Lodges, Profess-Houses etc. should always be oriented to Boleskine." In Chapter 23 of Magick Without Tears he says, "Remember that your `East', your Kiblah, is Boleskine House..."

Sabazius' explanation for the word Kibla: "The Arabic word Qiblah, or "Kiblah," refers to the holiest shrine of Islam."

And further Sabazius write: "Most religious systems include a similar concept. Christianity and Judaism have their Jerusalem or Mount Sinai, the Samaritans have their Mount Gerizim, Hinduism has its Mount Meru or Mount Kailasa, the Greeks had their Mount Olympus or the Omphalos at Delphi. Thelema has its Boleskine."

(Source: http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/kiblah.htm ).

Establishing a kiblah is also a magical act. It doesn't neccesarily indicate he was organizing a religious movement or hoping to establish a faith-based community. But I guess, by stretching it, you could interpret it that way.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Liber CXXIV:

An Epistle of Baphomet...,

It has seemed fitting to Us to explain in a familiar form and simple the general principles of the government of the Profess-Houses of our Holy Order, so that the Abbot and Abbess of every such house shall understand by what paths to pursue the great aims which inspire Us to the service of our Brethren.

5. There is no rule with regard to the degree of luxury to be observed in any Profess-House.

7. In the theory of the Order, the guest’s right to enter a Profess-House for the appointed period of three days, when the Lodge of the guest is in the same province as the Profess-House, or one month, when it is in a different province, is paramount, and overrides the right of the Abbot to close his door.

9. All residents in the Profess-Houses of the Order are formally bound to perform the four daily Salutations to the Sun as prescribed in Liber CC (Equinox Vol I, No. vi, p.29). The exception is, when actually engaged in a ceremony approved by the Order, such as initiation, invocation, or meditation.

10. The use of artificial light, except for ceremonial purposes, is to be discouraged in the Profess-Houses of the Order; for the Sun is the master of the cycle of life. The exception is when serious intellectual labour is being performed.

(Source: Liber CXXIV http://www.adastra-oto.org/docs/cxxiv.htm ).

Liber CI {Book 101}:

These Regulations Come into Force in Any District Where the Membership of the Order Exceeds One Thousand Souls

Issued by Order: BAPHOMET XI° O.T.O., HIBERNIAE IONAE ET OMNIUM BRITANNIARUM, REX SUMMUS SANCTISSIMUS

AN EPISTLE OF BAPHOMET....,

OF THE DUTIES OF THE BRETHREN

FOURTH HOUSE

9. Every Brother who may possess mines, land, or houses more than he can himself constantly occupy, should donate part of such mines or land, or one or more of such houses to the Order.

10. Property thus given will be administered if he desire it in his own interest, thus effecting a saving, since large estates are more economically handled than small. But the Order will use such property as may happen to lie idle for the moment in such ways as it may seem good, lending an unlet house (for example) to some Brother who is in need, or allowing an unused hall to be occupied by a Lodge.

11. (Yet in view of the great objects of the Order, endowment is welcome.)

FIFTH HOUSE

15. There is an especially sacred duty, which every Brother should fulfil, with regard to all children, those born without the Order included. This duty is to instruct them in the Law of Thelema, to teach them independence and freedom of thought and character, and to warn them that servility and cowardice are the most deadly diseases of the human soul.

TENTH HOUSE

38. If the mother that is to be have asserted her will to be so in contempt and defiance of the Tabus of the slave-gods, she is to be regarded as especially suitable to our Order, and the Master of the Lodge in her district shall offer to become, as it were, godfather to the child, who shall be trained specially, if the mother so wishes, as a servant of the Order, in one of its Profess-Houses.

41. Colleges of the Order will presently be established where the children of its members may be trained in all trades, businesses, and professions, and there they may study the liberal arts and humane letters, as well as our holy and arcane science. Brethren are expected to do all in their power to make possible the establishment of such Universities.

OF THE PRIVILEGES OF THE BRETHREN

FOURTH HOUSE

50. Brethren of advanced years and known merit who desire to follow the religious life may be asked to reside permanently in such houses.

FIFTH HOUSE

54. Children of all Brethren are entitled to the care of the Order, and arrangements will be made to educate them in certain of the Profess-Houses of the Order.

NINTH HOUSE

65. The Order teaches the only perfect and satisfactory system of philosoÿhy, religion, and science, leading its members step by step to knowledge and power hardly even dreamed of by the profane.

(Source: Liber CI {Book 101} http://sacred-texts.com/oto/lib101.htm These regulations first appeared in The Equinox III(1) (Detroit: Universal, 1919)).

Very nice instructions for a magical order with a vital religious component. If anything, the opening lines suggest a service based community. Nothing indicates it being faith based. Also, envisioning a utopian magical order doesn't have to indicate organizing a religious movement unless one chooses to interpret it in that way, as I guess, you have. You're welcome to your opinions. It's anyone's guess what Crowley's real intentions were. It seems like he wasn't always so sure himself. At least not as sure as his religious apologists.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 486
10/01/2010 12:23 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
Alternatively it could be a well crafted fanciful crock of bullshit designed to bamboozle the freemasons of Detroit.

Actually the negotiations in Detroit had fallen apart by that time. Moreover Crowley began crafting these things already in 1916 before there ever were a question of sitting on a "council" in Detroit.

Moreover Crowley would reference Liber CI as would Charles S. Jones in his lectures from when they first were circulated throughout his life, including in one letter to McMurtry at the end of his life.

He would also reference the socalled "social order" presented in III:1 to Karl Germer much later than 1919. Perhaps if it was a well crafted fanciful crock of bullshit designed to bamboozle someone he had in mind a group slightly larger than the freemasons in Detroit?


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 501
10/01/2010 12:40 pm  

I concede. Facts trump opinions.

OK


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 12:32 am  

All emphasizes and all words in brackets are mine in this posting.

"zardoz" wrote:
You should try to pay better attention please. I made no such claim. You (emphasis mine) posted this claim made by someone else. I only suggested how one could go about verifying or invalidating it for oneself.

Sorry for that.

Thelema being open to one "verifying or invalidating it for oneself", makes it similar to Scientology in this respect, as can bee seen from the following
article titled, "PERSONAL INTEGRITY BY L. RON HUBBARD", written by the founder of the Scientology religion, and published on an official site belonging to his church:

"WHAT IS TRUE FOR YOU is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that you have lost everything." And at the end: "Nothing in Dianetics and Scientology is true for you Unless you have observed it And it is true according to your observation. That is all."

(Source: http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Part01/Chp03/pg0138.html ).

Like Crowley's Thelema being against and superseding the Slave-Gods of religions before Thelema, Dianetics, and thus by implication Scientology, is against and supersedes enslavement of Man dominant among human beings before Dianetics and Scientology:

"“The black enchantment of Earth didn’t turn out to be a sinister barrier. But it’s a black enchantment all the same. The social and personal aberrations, traveling from Egypt’s time and before, piling up higher and higher, being broken only by new lands and new mongrel races. The black enchantment is slavery. Man’s effort to enslave Man so that Man can be free. Wrong equation. That’s the black enchantment. We’ve a magic word to break it and a science to be applied. Up there are the stars. Down in the arsenal is an atom bomb. Which one is it going to be?” From: Evolution of a Science by L. Ron Hubbard."

(Sources: This apologetic blog about Dianetics: http://findoutaboutyourmind.com/ and http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-05.html ).

L. Ron Hubbard's claims of having a magic word to break Man’s effort to enslave Man, and of having a science to be applied, might well be inspired by Aleister Crowley, who also claims having magic words, and claims having a scientific method to be applied within his belief system.

"zardoz" wrote:
What I'm describing is Thelema as a magical current. The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will. The obvious example is the changes that occurred in the cultural explosion of the 1960's which affected thousands or millions of people. This cultural explosion appeared very aligned to Thelemic principals. Hardly a subcultural phenomena.

Your description of the "the cultural explosion of the 1960's" as "very aligned to Thelemic principals", would not neceseraly have been met with approval by A. Crowley, particularly not the hippie message of "peace and love" in "the cultural explosion of the 1960's":

"The [Agape-]Lodge was constantly riven by personal feuding and upheaval, and Crowley's influence over the course of events seems in reality to have been marginal. The nucleus of Agape Lodge was some sort of forerunner of a hippie commune."

(Source: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/parsons.htm ).

AND: "In one of many scolding letters to Smith, Crowley accused him of providing the O.T.O with "the reputation of being that slimy abomination, a 'love cult'."

(Source: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/schreck.htm ).

OR: "1944: Aleister Crowley expels Wilfred Smith from the OTO for turning the Agape Lodge into a "love cult"."

(Source: http://orlingrabbe.com/Jpar14.htm ).

Neither is it likely that that Karl Germer, Crowley's first successor, would have approved of "the cultural explosion of the 1960's" as "very aligned to
Thelemic principals":

In a letter of 3rd May 1952 Germer considered the US a "spiritual desert."

(Source: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/lam.htm ).

The two souces below also show that Crowley's disputed second successor as OTO boss, Grady Louis McMurtry(1918 –1985), could also controll his enthusiasm for hippies.

*Source one: "According to Grady, in the early spring of '77[long time after "the cultural explosion of the 1960's"] he did some "fairly heavy magick" to open "up the Order to an influx of psychic energy from the ancient Egyptian Gods worshipped by the Order." Jokingly, he then goes, "KAPLOOIE!!", and continues by stating, "the hippie-commie-pervert-weirdo-heathen occultists of Berkeley descended upon him 'en masse', to check him out."

(Source: http://www.cornelius93.com/Grady-WarriorTroubadour-2.html )

*Source two: Llee Heflin(b. 1939), probably the first person ever initiated by Grady Louis McMurtry in 1969, on McMurtry: "I was aware that Grady was not particularly happy with the situation as it was, i. e. that we 'youngsters' were not sitting at his feet etc. But he had no apparent Magickal 'fire' and no apparent Magickal 'vision' by means of which to be the 'leader'. C. and I and the others in our band of 'hippies' had experienced too much real Magick already to acquiesce to such a 'non-leader' as leader. Grady never once said, ' I am the Caliph! I am the OHO! We will do things my way!' We weren't the OTO. In reality there was no active OTO at that time except maybe in the mind of Grady and Mildred [Burlingame]." She like Grady, had been active in the OTO associated with Jack Parsons and Cameron.

(Source: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/white.htm ).

More sources showing Louis McMurtry, disputed second successor of Crowley as OTO boss, not neceseraly being in tune with the the hippie message of "peace and love" in "the cultural explosion of the 1960's":

On the "hippie beard" of Louis McMurtry, disputed seccond successor of Crowley as OTO boss:

In 1973 Grady joined the Sikh order known as the ‘Healthy, Happy Holy Organization’ or 3HO where he took his yoga lessons and it wasn't until the summer of 1974 that he began growing his now trademark beard. All photos of him with a beard have to date after this period.

(Source: http://www.cornelius93.com/Grady-Photo-4.html ).

"I think that that is also one reason why he designated me to be his Caliph to come."He�dmired courage. He didn’t want any weak sisters [0. A weak or undependable member of a group, 2. A person regarded as timid or indecisive. Source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/weak+sisters ] around. If a guy had the guts to stand up and “beard the Lion in his den,’-and I had done just that-then there was some hope that that guy might make it."

(Source: http://www.cornelius93.com/Grady-ProphetAndHisCaliph.html ).

"I am Caliph because I am a soldier: First, last and always.” He further explained that he has often been misunderstood by the “weak sisters,” expressing to them that he was not their “Groovy Guru ... who is here to perform while you sit around and are entertained. I am here to find that iron core of dedicated Thelemites ...”

(Source: http://www.cornelius93.com/Grady-Letter1944November21a.html ).

CALIPHATE LETTER November 21st 1944:

Of course, those who presently argue that “the Calihpate is something that Grady started back in 1977 are obviously misguided, if not fostering a personal agenda, because by Crowley’s own admission, Germer was to be the first Caliph. This makes the Caliphate beginning in 1948 and not 1977 as often bantered about. ... Crowley then goes on in his letter to say that, “1965 e.v. should be a critical period in the development of the Child Horus!” This would turn out to be very true although years later Grady would wonder about the nature of the number 65 itself and its relationship to Adonai amongst other things. ... Grady would later explain about letter that obviously it showed that Crowley “could foresee the future,” and basically that’s why “I am Caliph.

(Source: http://www.cornelius93.com/Grady-Letter1944November21a.html ).

Above I have provided you both with quotes from Crowley, and quotes and sources from two persons that were close to him.

Doing some research work on the easily avilable source material on Crowley, does not leave it "anyone's guess what Crowley's real intentions were", as you claim in the quote from you below.

"zardoz" wrote:
"... envisioning a utopian magical order doesn't have to indicate organizing a religious movement unless one chooses to interpret it in that way, as I guess, you have. You're welcome to your opinions. It's anyone's guess what Crowley's real intentions were. It seems like he wasn't always so sure himself. At least not as sure as his religious apologists.

You guess in the quote from you above that I choose to interpret the movement Crowley envisioned in Liber CI and Liber CXXIV, as indications of him wanting to organize a religious movement. It is not as simple as that. I am of the opinion that Aleister Crowley, like the Golden Dawn mystics before him - you and most members of this forum obviuosly know that he was a member of the Golden Dawn for a while - evidently sought to comprehend the entire human religious and mystical experience in a single philosophy. I choose to emphasize religion in relation to Crowley and Thelema, more to be in line with the subjectmatter of this thread - Thelema/Magick's semblance to religion in general - then to express my own opinion.

"zardoz" wrote:
What are you attempting to stringently verify ? How does that aid you with the progression of your work?

I am "attempting to stringently verify" as objective as possible information and/or knowledge on Crowley and Thelema, it will aid me in gathering a well founded basis, that is, for any apinion or opinions of mine concerning these matters.

"zardoz" wrote:
Thelema is not a religious movement. There is no effort to convert or attract new followers[zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 08:10 PM:].

A phrase frequently used by Crowley for example in Liber CCC, is “promulgation of the Law of Thelema.” "Promulgation of the the Law of Thelema" means to promote the doctrines and practices Thelema.

"zardoz" wrote:
zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 07:46 PM: "Thelema does not need to get systematized like any other organized religion. It's system works with individuals, as per the A.'. A.'. The O.T.O. (any kind) has enough of a system for those wishing and willing to connect to a larger body."

Aleister Crowley in our day and age is everywhere and we tend to forget that at one time he and Thelema almost faded into obscurity.

Do you realy think that without Grady Louis McMurtry's strongly willed effort at reviving the OTO thus saving it from near oblivion, that Thelema and Crowley would be as known and spread as it is today? Your strong conviction that Thelema - unlike any other secular and/or religious belief systems - does not need systematization and organizational efforts to remain active, borders much on some faith in Thelema's supernatural uniqueness regarding these matters of systematization and organizational efforts.

And what I write in the sentence before this one about the degree to which information about Thelema and Crowley is known and spread today, does not imply that Thelema and Crowley is well known today.

The following quote from an ex member of Grady Louis McMurtry's OTO, gives indications of how unknown Thelema and Crowley is today:

"At the time I write this memorandum[2006], the world population is 6,477,451,000. OTO membership is, perhaps, 3000. The population of the United States, where OTO has enjoyed its greatest success to date, is at least 298,444,062.

(Reference: http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)

OTO membership is, possibly, 2000 and not growing appreciably — at the highest levels, essentially not growing at all. There is an argument that goes that this is as it should be, that the membership needs to be "few and secret" that it may "rule" (ill-defined) "the many and the known" — but in a world of 300 billions, an organization not appreciably larger than, say, the Socialist Workers Party and much smaller than, say, the followers of Rastafarianism is not just small, but hardly around at all."

(Source: T Allen Greenfield, Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis http://www.mindspring.com/~hellfire/bishop/statement.htm ).

Like the Thelemites, also the Communists believe themselves to have history and the the passage of time on their side, but at least most Communists know that the implementation of Communism will take systematization and organizational efforts.

Coincidentally Grady Louis McMurtry covered this subject matter in his thesis submitted for Master of Arts degree in Political Science, 129 pgs.: The Millennial Glow: Myth and Magic in the Marxist Ethic:

"It is the struggle of opposites in the thesis-antithesis monad that eventuates in a "will" or "spontaneity" or "development" that may be coerced into producing rye from wheat or, on the macroscopic scale, into producing the Act of the Revolution. The Act of History is supposedly brought about by the inner contradictions of economic materialism, but the Act of Revolution is brought about by the conflict of Bourgeoisie and Proletariat allowing the Leader and his charisma group-party cadre to take theory or consciousness to the mindless masses and so, by the use of this theory as a definitional creative-coercive word, seek to alter the course of nature."

(Sources: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0500.htm#gp and http://www.cornelius93.com/ContentsPage.html ).

I seem to have found the answer to my questions about if initiation is an intrinsic part of organized Thelema, the answer being yes. In my search for this answer i found this information:

"There is no comparison with other O.T.O. versions, essentially because there are no group rituals or ceremonies of initiation at any stage of the Typhonian degree structure. All initiation is stated to be self-initiation. There is a small amount of set grade work within the Typhonian O.T.O.; however, the emphasis is on the initiate charting his or her own course."

(Source: Endnote number 353 in: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/white.htm#_edn352 ).

In light og the above quotet information about the Typhonian O.T.O., and guessing that the answer to my question about if initiation is an integral part of Thelema in general - both in its organized and non organized form - is yes, I have the following question:

***"Has Aleister Crowley written anything about self initiation?"


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 12:48 am  

The reason for my question about if Aleister Crowley has written anything about self initiation, is that all traditions of initiation, still found within religions like for example Islam an Hundism, are based upon the disciple with master scheme.

If Crowley suggests self initiation, this will make him differ from earlier traditions of initiation.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 375
13/01/2010 6:15 pm  

93!

I do not find it very far fetched, in my seeing “THELEMA” itself, as “THE” Living Path of Initiation,
leading to the unfolding of all that has been considered to be,
the Revealing of the Mysteries of Religion people are “Aiming” for.
I am defining “religion” here, as something which “enhances” in every possible way, the spiritual life of those partaking thereof.
All religions, “especially” those of the slave gods, proclaim to be of an enhancing nature:
but Thelema--- remember, is “The Aim” of religion.

So, once any particular Star,
chooses, realizes, accepts, or embarks upon Thelema,
the Greater initiations of life commence.
If you know yourself a Thelemite
you have reached a level of understanding, which in one sense means,
You are ready for everything; good or bad; that you will in effect,
harness the energy of all coming your way,
---To manifest “Your Will” without let or hindrance.

Now there will be “initiations Thelemic” incrementally along the way,
throughout the course of the life of each particular Star.
There are “personal” initiations for all Thelemites; very much including, those Thelemites not “officially” members of the Orders Established by AC.
And there will be Initiations, as well as Ordeals----as well, for those Thelemites, having gained ingress into either of the two major Thelemic Orders. Initiations special and peculiar to those orders.

Let’s have a look at Liber Astarte!
The “Master” Therion, offers as part of his Thelemic system of initiation
---a Bhakti Ritual,
where the divinity that is to be worshiped, can be if we so choose, totally opposed
(according to the dogma of said divinitie's sacred scripture ) to the spiritual path,
of Thelema itself!
The proper performance of Astarte, does indeed result in an initiation,
bringing forth various “realizations” and modes of understanding,
conducive to the overall spiritual path of the Thelemite having accomplished it.
The individual is warned beforehand, of the certain risk involved, but is whole-heartedly
encouraged to do it.

Thelema is the Perfect Example:
Of a Real Master----presenting the most powerful keys of initiation,
yet admonishing his readers, never to blindly follow him!

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
13/01/2010 10:27 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:

Thelema being open to one "verifying or invalidating it for oneself", makes it similar to Scientology in this respect, as can bee seen from the following
article titled, "PERSONAL INTEGRITY BY L. RON HUBBARD", written by the founder of the Scientology religion, and published on an official site belonging to his church:

"WHAT IS TRUE FOR YOU is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that you have lost everything." And at the end: "Nothing in Dianetics and Scientology is true for you Unless you have observed it And it is true according to your observation. That is all."

(Source: http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Part01/Chp03/pg0138.html ).

Like Crowley's Thelema being against and superseding the Slave-Gods of religions before Thelema, Dianetics, and thus by implication Scientology, is against and supersedes enslavement of Man dominant among human beings before Dianetics and Scientology:

"“The black enchantment of Earth didn’t turn out to be a sinister barrier. But it’s a black enchantment all the same. The social and personal aberrations, traveling from Egypt’s time and before, piling up higher and higher, being broken only by new lands and new mongrel races. The black enchantment is slavery. Man’s effort to enslave Man so that Man can be free. Wrong equation. That’s the black enchantment. We’ve a magic word to break it and a science to be applied. Up there are the stars. Down in the arsenal is an atom bomb. Which one is it going to be?” From: Evolution of a Science by L. Ron Hubbard."

(Sources: This apologetic blog about Dianetics: http://findoutaboutyourmind.com/ and http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-05.html ).

L. Ron Hubbard's claims of having a magic word to break Man’s effort to enslave Man, and of having a science to be applied, might well be inspired by Aleister Crowley, who also claims having magic words, and claims having a scientific method to be applied within his belief system.

Hubbard started an organized religion, Crowley revealed a magical current.

Before Scientology, LRH was a science fiction writer. It's reported that, at a weekly poker game attended by SF writers and editors, Hubbard, the lowest paid of the lot, at one point got up and said something like, "Screw this writing. I'm going to start a religion and make some real money!" I've heard this story form different sources, the most public one being Harlan Ellison giving the account at an SF convention in the late '70's.

Hubbard was financially motivated, Crowley was not.

I agree that there are some techniques of value presented by Scientology, and LRH could very well have gotten inspiration from AC. Unfortunately, the organization seems corrupted by its rigid dogma and fanatical territorialism. Some of it's bizarre beliefs and weird cosmology don't help either.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Your description of the "the cultural explosion of the 1960's" as "very aligned to Thelemic principals", would not neceseraly have been met with approval by A. Crowley, particularly not the hippie message of "peace and love" in "the cultural explosion of the 1960's":

Let's stop fantasizing about what AC may or may not have approved. It can only turn into wild speculation. I could make an excellent argument for this alignment but it's a topic for a different thread.

The "hippie message," whatever that is, some generalized abstraction made up by you, or most likely, some media pundit, is not what I was referring to.

Timothy Leary's marketing slogan, "Tune In, Turn On, Drop Out," has significant correspondence with Thelemic magical formulae.

His instructions for using psychedelics summarized as 'set, setting, and dosage,' brings scientific methodology to the use of 'strange drugs' in the occult arts.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Neither is it likely that that Karl Germer, Crowley's first successor, would have approved of "the cultural explosion of the 1960's" as "very aligned to
Thelemic principals":

In a letter of 3rd May 1952 Germer considered the US a "spiritual desert."

(Source: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/lam.htm ).

Again, more baseless speculation. The cultural explosion of the '60's occurred in the 1960's and later, not in 1952. However, it doesn't seem farfetched to consider the US a spiritual desert at any point in recent history including now. AC alludes to 'spiritual desert' in the Book of Lies ch. 42.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
The two souces below also show that Crowley's disputed second successor as OTO boss, Grady Louis McMurtry(1918 –1985), could also controll his enthusiasm for hippies.

Hippies were one aspect of the '60's not the whole thing. It seems a vague, and overgeneralized designation. Anyway, with the large numbers that the Thelemic current influenced and reached in the '60's, there's bound to be a certain percentage who get lost or miss the point.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Above I have provided you both with quotes from Crowley, and quotes and sources from two persons that were close to him.

Yes, you did. I asked for quotes proving or indicating AC's intentions to organize a religious movement or start a faith based community. Those quotes don't address those issues.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Doing some research work on the easily avilable source material on Crowley, does not leave it "anyone's guess what Crowley's real intentions were", as you claim in the quote from you below.

AC apparently didn't make clear his intentions regarding organizing a religious movement. He contradicts himself in the "easily available source material," as per the MWT quote above. Also, you've failed to provide a quote that makes clear his intentions.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
"... envisioning a utopian magical order doesn't have to indicate organizing a religious movement unless one chooses to interpret it in that way, as I guess, you have. You're welcome to your opinions. It's anyone's guess what Crowley's real intentions were. It seems like he wasn't always so sure himself. At least not as sure as his religious apologists.

You guess in the quote from you above that I choose to interpret the movement Crowley envisioned in Liber CI and Liber CXXIV, as indications of him wanting to organize a religious movement.

I guessed that because it appears below a quote of myself asking for evidence that he wished to organize a religion.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Thelema is not a religious movement. There is no effort to convert or attract new followers[zardoz Post subject: Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 08:10 PM:].

A phrase frequently used by Crowley for example in Liber CCC, is “promulgation of the Law of Thelema.” "Promulgation of the the Law of Thelema" means to promote the doctrines and practices Thelema.

Promoting the doctrines and practices of Thelema doesn't translate as actively converting or attracting followers. Those doctrines and practices can be promoted without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning Aleister Crowley.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Do you realy think that without Grady Louis McMurtry's strongly willed effort at reviving the OTO thus saving it from near oblivion, that Thelema and Crowley would be as known and spread as it is today?

No.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Your strong conviction that Thelema - unlike any other secular and/or religious belief systems - does not need systematization and organizational efforts to remain active, borders much on some faith in Thelema's supernatural uniqueness regarding these matters of systematization and organizational efforts.

Please read what I write more carefully before convicting me. I said, ""Thelema does not need to get systematized like any other organized religion. Organized as a publishing company and magical order - definitely. Much respect to Caliph Grady. I live in Caliphornia myself. 😀

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
The following quote from an ex member of Grady Louis McMurtry's OTO, gives indications of how unknown Thelema and Crowley is today:

"At the time I write this memorandum[2006], the world population is 6,477,451,000. OTO membership is, perhaps, 3000. The population of the United States, where OTO has enjoyed its greatest success to date, is at least 298,444,062.

(Reference: http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)

OTO membership is, possibly, 2000 and not growing appreciably — at the highest levels, essentially not growing at all. There is an argument that goes that this is as it should be, that the membership needs to be "few and secret" that it may "rule" (ill-defined) "the many and the known" — but in a world of 300 billions, an organization not appreciably larger than, say, the Socialist Workers Party and much smaller than, say, the followers of Rastafarianism is not just small, but hardly around at all."

(Source: T Allen Greenfield, Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis http://www.mindspring.com/~hellfire/bishop/statement.htm ).

Again, you're talking about the OTO based in Caliphornia, not about Thelema as a whole. I have no argument that this OTO has a relatively small membership. However, I don't see this as detracting from their work of promulgation. But maybe you and some others do.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"There is no comparison with other O.T.O. versions, essentially because there are no group rituals or ceremonies of initiation at any stage of the Typhonian degree structure. All initiation is stated to be self-initiation. There is a small amount of set grade work within the Typhonian O.T.O.; however, the emphasis is on the initiate charting his or her own course."

(Source: Endnote number 353 in: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/white.htm#_edn352 ).

Sounds very sensible. I recall something from Gurdjieff's 4th Way ideas stating that there is no initiation except self-initiation. I made this comment in an online course titled Initiation given by Lon Milo Duquette, and he concurred.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/01/2010 9:38 am  
"sonofthestar" wrote:
93!
I do not find it very far fetched, in my seeing “THELEMA” itself, as “THE” Living Path of Initiation, leading to the unfolding of all that has been considered to be, the Revealing of the Mysteries of Religion people are “Aiming” for. I am defining “religion” here, as something which “enhances” in every possible way, the spiritual life of those partaking thereof. All religions, “especially” those of the slave gods, proclaim to be of an enhancing nature: but Thelema--- remember, is “The Aim” of religion.
"sonofthestar" wrote:
Let’s have a look at Liber Astarte!
The “Master” Therion, offers as part of his Thelemic system of initiation
---a Bhakti Ritual, where the divinity that is to be worshiped, can be if we so choose, totally opposed (according to the dogma of said divinitie's sacred scripture ) to the spiritual path, of Thelema itself!
The proper performance of Astarte, does indeed result in an initiation,
bringing forth various “realizations” and modes of understanding,
conducive to the overall spiritual path of the Thelemite having accomplished it.
The individual is warned beforehand, of the certain risk involved, but is whole-heartedly
encouraged to do it.

Thelema is the Perfect Example:
Of a Real Master----presenting the most powerful keys of initiation,
yet admonishing his readers, never to blindly follow him!

Thanks for your reply sonofthestar, especially your mention and description of Liber Astarte.

"zardoz" wrote:
Please read what I write more carefully before convicting me. I said, ""Thelema does not need to get systematized like any other organized religion. Organized as a publishing company and magical order - definitely. Much respect to Caliph Grady. I live in Caliphornia myself. 😀

Sorry for that, but glad for you living in California. 😀 I intend to travel to San Diego in California in the summer this year.

All emphasizes and all words in brackets below are mine in this posting.

"zardoz" wrote:
I agree that there are some techniques of value presented by Scientology, and LRH could very well have gotten inspiration from AC. Unfortunately, the organization seems corrupted by its rigid dogma and fanatical territorialism. Some of it's bizarre beliefs and weird cosmology don't help either.

Bizzare beliefs and weird cosmology need be no problem, as can be seen from the success of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The same goes for the founder having a very bad reputation, as can be seen from the success of for example the already mentioned Mormons.

I agree with your suggestion to stop speculating about possible alignments between Thelema and the The cultural explosion of the '60's, it is good that you bring to an end this speculation that you started.

"zardoz" wrote:
Hippies were one aspect of the '60's not the whole thing. It seems a vague, and overgeneralized designation. Anyway, with the large numbers that the Thelemic current influenced and reached in the '60's, there's bound to be a certain percentage who get lost or miss the point.

I see, more speculation - "with the large numbers that the Thelemic current influenced and reached in the '60's" - would that be "large numbers" compared to the number of persons "influenced and reached" by Christianity in its various versions at that time, or compared to the total population of the planet at that time, how vague and speculative do you want it to be?

"zardoz" wrote:
Promoting the doctrines and practices of Thelema doesn't translate as actively converting or attracting followers. Those doctrines and practices can be promoted without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning Aleister Crowley.

First: Would promoting the doctrines and practices of Thelema without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning Aleister Crowley, be "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" in any stringent way?

Second: Do you have any source[-s] confirming that Crowley intended "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" to be done without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning him?

"zardoz" wrote:
AC apparently didn't make clear his intentions regarding organizing a religious movement. He contradicts himself in the "easily available source material," as per the MWT quote above. Also, you've failed to provide a quote that makes clear his intentions.

So you see no indications in the quotes provided by me in this and earlier posting, from sources like Liber CI and Liber CXXIV, his selfbiography Confessions quoted by me further down in this posting, his own comments to The Book of the Law, where he describes Thelema's religious qualities/aspects, compares it to other religions, describes it as proving the external existence of God[-s] or god[-s], calles it a religion, and describes it as all-encompassing and all-explaining, quoted by me further down in this posting, and personal writing where he envisions churches with over 25 000 members (Source: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;"), of Crowley's intentions regarding organizing something also encompassing a religious movement?

The Magick Without Tears quote you referre to is one single instance where Crowly (in a reply letter to a letter which is not avilable as sourcematerial) tones down the religious aspect of - the all-encompassing and all-explaining and then some (as claimed by A. Crowley in the quotes from his comments to The Book of the Law provided by me further down in this posting) - Thelema.

To my first time quoting Liber CXXIV, you Zardoz replied: "Very nice instructions for a magical order with a vital religious component. If anything, the opening lines suggest a service based community."

Yes, traditionally an important part of a religious congregation has been to function as a community, readily also a service based community. This must be obvious to you living in the USA where many people spend much - or most - of their spare time in their congregation[-s].

In light of claims about Thelema not being faith based, I took a quick look at its most holy text.

From that I realized that being a Thelemite involves faith in that the law of Thelema "shall regenerate the world", as it says in The Book of the Law, in verse 53 of the first chapter. A belief system being presented as involving faith in some kind of redemtion for the world, is nothing new.

Do you have faith in the law of Thelema's "world regenerating" quality Zardos?

You don't have to answer this question if your faith/conviction/belief etc. about this holy text forbids you to comment upon it.

In an essay titled "Why Thelemites Lack Enlightenment", the author describes Crowley's intention with Thelema like this:

"Basically he was trying to create a religion to socially and spiritually satisfy the masses, attracting a large enough parish to fulfill all of the functions of the church, while at the same time leaving the group open to, and open ended enough to attract, those seeking enlightenment. The spiritual aspect of Thelema was really only meant for the unenlightened among the masses, not the enlightened who were there to receive the social benefits of the religion, not the spiritual.

But in practice Thelema has failed miserably. The OTO, the biggest proponent of the religion, has already died and been resurrected. Although the group may be able to point to rising numbers, the group still hasn’t shown large enough numbers in any single region for it to fulfill the community functions of the church, nor is it making significant gains to where we can assume this will happen within our lifetimes. Thelema has not done well in attracting general parishioners, who seem content to remain with Christianity, and without these parishioners there is no point in keeping Thelema around, because it fails to serve anybody in any capacity."

(Source: http://robjo.wordpress.com/category/thelema/ "Why Thelemites Lack Enlightenment", by Osirus Silverfang alias Rob:).

I am not at an adept like the author of the above quote claims to be, so I can hardly be the judge of wether "Thelemites Lack Enlightenment" or not, to Rob the main point hindering Thelemites from "enlightenment" is in short believing that Aleister Crowley can not be surpassed and/or equaled, and thus making Crowley into some eternally supreme Christ like being to be revered.

Rob does have a good point in showing that the largest OTO today is significantly smaller than Crowley clearly envisoned it to be in Liber CI, and thus to small to "fulfill the community functions of the church", as intended by him in Liber CI and in Liber CXXIV.

Crowley writes in Confessions, “Human nature demands (in the case of most people) the satisfaction of the religious instinct, and, to very many, this may best be done by ceremonial means. I wished therefore to construct a ritual through which people might enter into ecstasy as they have always done under the influence of appropriate ritual.”

(Source: http://www.scarletwoman.org/aboutus_sanctuary.html ).

Aleister Crowley's comments on Thelemas most holy text, where he use the words religion or religious, or compare it to other religions:

"All religions have some truth."

"Religious ecstasy is necessary to man's soul. Where this is attained by mystical practices, directly, as it should be, people need no substitutes. Thus the Hindus remain contentedly sober, and care nothing for the series of Invaders who have occupied their country from time to time and governed them. But where the only means of obtaining this ecstasy, or a simulacrum of it, known to the people, is alcohol, they must have alcohol. Deprive them of wine, or beer, or whatever their natural drink may be, and they replace it by morphia, cocaine, or something easier to conceal, and to take without detection."

"There is a Being called Aiwaz, an intelligence discarnate, who wrote this Book of the Law, using my ears and hand. His mind is certainly superior to my own in knowledge and in power, for He has dominated me and taught me ever since. But that apart, the proof of any discarnate intelligence, even of the lowest order, has never before been established. And lack of that proof is the flaw in all the religions of the past; man could not be certain of the existence of "God", because though he knew many powers independent of muscle, he knew of no consciousness independent of nerve."

"There are to be no regular temples of Nuith and Hadit, for They are incommensurables and absolutes. Our religion therefore, for the People, is the Cult of the Sun, who is our particular star of the Body of Nuit, from whom, in the strictest scientific sense, come this earth, a chilled spark of Him, and all our Light and Life.

His vice-regent and representative in the animal kingdom is His cognate symbol the Phallus, representing Love and Liberty. Ra-Hoor-Khuit, like all true Gods, is therefore a Solar-Phallic deity. But we regard Him as He is in truth, eternal; the Solar-Phallic deities of the old Aeon, such as Osiris, "Christ", Hiram, Adonis, Hercules, &c., were supposed, through our ignorance of the Cosmos, to 'die' and rise again'. Thus we celebrated rites of 'crucifixion' and so on, which have now become meaningless. Ra-Hoor-Khuit is the Crowned and Conquering Child. This is also a reference to the 'Crowned' and Conquering 'Child' in ourselves, our own personal God. Except ye become as little children, said 'Christ', ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of Malkuth, the Virgin Bride, and the Child is the Dwarf-Self, the Phallic consciousness, which is the true life of Man, beyond his 'veils' of incarnation."

"The tenets of Islam, correctly interpreted, are not far from our Way of Life and Light and Love and Liberty. This applies especially to the secret tenets. The external creed is mere nonsense suited to the intelligence of the peoples among whom it was promulgated; but even so, Islam is Magnificent in practice. Its code is that of a man of courage and honour and self-respect; contrasting admirably with the cringing cowardice of the damnation-dodging Christians with their unmanly and dishonest acceptance of vicarious sacrifice, and their currish conception of themselves as 'born in sin,' 'miserable sinners' with 'no health in us.'"

"The modern woman is not going to be dupe, slave, and victim any more; the woman who gives herself up freely to her own enjoyment, without asking recompense, will earn the respect of her brothers, and will openly despise her 'chaste' or venal sisters, as men now despise 'milksops,' 'sissies,' and 'tango lizards.' Love is to be divorced utterly and irrevocably from social and financial agreements, especially marriage. Love is a sport, an art, a religion, as you will; it is not an ol' clo' Emporium."

(Source: http://www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comments.html ).

Aleister Crowley's comments on Thelemas most holy text, where he use the words religion or religious, or compare it to other religions, in alternative source:

"In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet."

"This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings[?] wide.

I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this."

"Terse, yet sublime, are these verses of this Book; subtle yet simple; matchless for rhythm, direct as a ray of light. Its imagery is gorgeous without decadence. It deals with primary ideas. It announces revolutions in philosophy, religion, ethics, yea, in the whole nature of Man. For this it needs no more than to roll sea-billows solemnly forth, eight words, as "Every man and every woman is a star," or it bursts in a mountain torrent of monosyllables as "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.""

"7.The Comment must be consistent with itself at all points; it must exhibit the Book of the Law as of absolute authority on all possible questions proper to Mankind, as offering the perfect solution of all problems philosophical and practical without exception."

"10.The Comment must be pertinent to the problems of our own tiems, and present the principles of the Law in a manner susceptible of present practical application. It must satisfy all types of intelligence, neither revolting to rational, scientific, mathematical, and philosophical thinkers, nor repugnant to religious and romantic temperaments.

11.The Comment must appeal on behalf of the Law to the authority of Experience. It must make Success the proof of the Truth of the Book of the Law at every point of contact with Reality. The Word of Aiwaz must put forth a perfect presentation of the Universe as Necessary, Intelligible, Self-subsistent, as Integral, Absolute, and Immanent. It must satisfy all intuitions, explain all enigmas, and compse[SIC!] all conflicts. It must reveal Reality, reconcile Reason with Relativity; and, resolving not only all antinomies in the Absolute, but all antipathies in the appreciation of Aptness, assure the acquiescence of every faculty of manking in the perfection of its plenary propriety. Releasing us from every restriction upon Right, the Word of Aiwaz must extend its empire by enlisting the allegiance of every man and every woman that puts its truth to the test. On these principles, to the pitch of my power, will I the Beast 666, who received the Book of the Law from the Mouth of mine Angel Aiwaz, make my comment thereon ; being armed with the word: "But the work of the comment? That is easy ; and Hadit in thy heart shall make swift and secure thy pen.""

(Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox-of-the-gods/eqotg7.html
THE EQUINOX OF THE GODS CHAPTER 7 ("Remarks on the method of receiving Liber Legis, on the Conditions prevailing at the time of the writing, and on certain technical difficulties connected with the Literary form of the Book. This paper was written, independently of any idea of its present place in this Book, by The Beast 666 Himself, in the Abbey of Thelema in Cefalu, Sicily. No further apology is offered for any repetitious of statements made in previous chapters).")

"The Path to Purpose is based on some studies that Damon and his students have done about kids and purposes. What they found is alarming: "In our interviews and surveys, only about one in five young people in the 12-22-year age range express a clear vision of where they want to go,what they want to accomplish in life, and why.""

And later:

" ... Damon doesn't focus nearly as much as he should have on the data showing that having a purpose tends to lead to success in most areas (academic, social, etc.) He tells us this repeatedly and there is no reason to doubt him, but I was curious as to what the data show: how much more successful are those with purpose versus those without?

Also, I really wish Damon would have addressed a question many of us (especially teachers) have about how we can talk about purpose in a way value-neutral enough to be appropriate and not preachy. How can we guide kids towards purposeful lives without imposing certain values on them (when a child, say, chooses a purpose we may feel is maladaptive)? This would have been a helpful discussion to have and his book suffers for lack of it."

(Source: http://www.amazon.com/Path-Purpose-Young-People-Calling/dp/1416537244 : The Path to Purpose: How Young People Find Their Calling in Life by William Damon (Professor of Education at Stanford University, Director of the Stanford Center on Adolescence), reviewed by Kevin Currie-Knight "Education Grad Student" (Newark, Delaware, TOP 500 REVIEWER)).

In light of the data referred to in the source above, Thelema might be shown through scientific studies, to provide a purpose in life, and thus increased likelihood for success in most areas, for kids brought up by Thelemites. But since the possible numbers of Thelemites bringing up kids would be very small, I doubt that such data would amount to a statistically significant phenomenon.

"tai" wrote:
Crowley’s efforts to organize Thelema into a religion notwithstanding, I suspect Thelema will not succeed as an organized religion on the following grounds:
"tai" wrote:
3. The idea that each person’s True Will is unique to their star and orbit, by definition, makes the concept of ecclesiastical authority somewhat rather problematic. I say “somewhat” because I do not regard Thelema to be pure anarchism or anti-social.

The Book of the Law flings forth no theological fulminations; but we have quarrels enough on our hands. We have to fight for Freedom against oppressors, religious, social, or industrial; and we are utterly opposed to compromise. Every fight is to be a fight to the finish; each one of us for himself, to do his own will; and all of us for all, to establish the Law of Liberty.

(Source: The New Comment to AL III,57: "Despise also all cowards; professional soldiers who dare not fight, but play; all fools despise!" http://www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comments.html ).

"tai" wrote:
4. Crowley’s cultivation of an antinomian/diabolical image – which, while it might have been fashionable and bohemian for the fin-de-siecle Satanism of his time, is completely out of touch in our age of AIDs, fundamentalist terrorism and paranoia. Seriously would you want your boss or friends to know you belong to a religion whose Prophet claimed to have sacrificed on average “150 children per year” – especially when there may be criminals who are not joking and intent on committing such crimes? I regard Crowley’s diabolicism of his early years and organization of Thelema into a religion in his later years as two sides of the same coin. Nevertheless I still prefer Crowley to someone like LRH who whitewashed his history to consolidate his reputation as a Friend of humanity and founder of Scientology.

The text Rebuttal to Thelema a Destructive Path, might be useful in this regard, as an apologetic text for Crowley and Thelema. And as opposed to L. Ron Hubbard, any whitewash of A. Crowley would not have to tackle criminal convictions.

(Source: http://www.excommunicate.net/rebuttal-to-thelema-a-destructive-path/ ).

Any whitewash of L. Ron Hubbard would have to tackle that that he was sentenced - in his absence - to four years in prison and fined 35,000 Francs for fraud by the Paris Criminal Court in 1978, and that a group of scientologists, including Hubbard’s wife, were jailed for attempting to block US government investigations into the church in the 1980's

(Sources: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6892075.ece and: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/hubbard-jail-term2.htm ).

Again referring to Mormonism as an example, Crowley's bad reputation should not hinder Thelema from becomming numerically successful like Mormonism, despite the bad reputation of the Latter Day Saint movement's founder.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
15/01/2010 10:21 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
Presenting and encouraging the growth of a religious practice such as Liber XV is very different from using it to convert followers into organizing a structured, old aeon, religious movement.

Quite right, Z. It would have to be a New Aeon religious movement structured so as to suit perfectly the innate nature of each individual participating, surely. 😉


ReplyQuote
sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 375
16/01/2010 4:36 am  

93!

The following part of Liber LXI, is as importantly pertinent today,
as when it was first printed!
Once again, it is a perfect example of how "The "Master" Therion's Grand Initiating Order,
whilst providing all that is necessary to assist the candidate for initiation, and future adept-hood along his/her way----makes it as plain as possible that it is the candidate alone, succeeding, or failing, from his/her own work and initiative.
Forgive my presumptuousness on commenting on a class D document,
made public long ago; such comments of mine, being enclosed in brackets.
The entirety of LXI can be found in The Holy Books of Thelema, as well as other publications published by Ordo Templi Orientis.

THE PRELIMINARY LECTION

In the Name of the Initiator, Amen.

1. In the beginning was Initiation. The flesh profiteth nothing; the mind profiteth nothing; that which is unknown to you and above these, while firmly based upon their equilibrium, giveth life.

{ Unknown, from that perspective;
not necessarily at all "unknowable" from certain perspectives to come. }

2. In all systems of religion is to be found a system of Initiation, which may be defined as the process by which a man comes to learn that unknown Crown.

{ as alluded to above. The limited, or greater knowledge of the Supernal Life, revealed
to the individual through the use of symbol sets,
uniquely interpretable to the those "individuals " receiving them. }

3. Though none can communicate either the knowledge or the power to achieve this, which we may call the Great Work, it is yet possible for initiates to guide others.

{ Even the highest of Adepts, can only give the Rituals, and the Keys, by which the individuals under their tutelage, succeed, or fail to properly make use of.
The initiates/adepts to be,---do the work their "own" very selves;
No One, can do it for them.}

4. Every man must overcome his own obstacles, expose his own illusions. Yet others may assist him to do both, and they may enable him altogether to avoid many of the false paths, leading no whither, which tempt the weary feet of the uninitiated pilgrim. They can further insure that he is duly tried and tested, for there are many who think themselves to be Masters who have not even begun to tread the Way of Service that leads thereto.

{ Again, the burden of success or failure---is borne by the initiate!
He/she can only utilize the advice given by those with more experience.
Self integrity, and great introspective effortry would seem to be the needed requirements for knowing the difference between the distances traversed; whether or not one is where one is, or is deluded. Each candidate all along the path, receives advice as well the testing: providing him/her with "balancing" guidance. }

5. Now the Great Work is one, and the Initiation is one, and the Reward is one, however diverse are the symbols wherein the Unutterable is clothed.

{ Clothed, as diversely as the "individual" is, uniquely diverse from other "individuals" receiving this knowledge of the Supernals, through potently alive symbols, uniquely translatable to the conscious mind, of Him/Her. }

6. Hear then the history of the system which this lection gives you the opportunity of investigating.

Listen, we pray you, with attention: for once only does the Great Order knock at any one door.

{ Be not so distracted with the mundane aspects of Life, that you fail to hear that knock over the din of the mind mundane. }

Whosoever knows any member of that Order as such, can never know another, until he too has attained to mastery.

{ Such mastery is obtainable to more than just one adept;
hence the possibility for limitless advancement,
for each "individual" making the grade. }

Here, therefore, we pause, that you may thoroughly search yourself, and consider if you are yet fitted to take an irrevocable step.

{Again, You are doing that searching, whilst being.... observed. }

{ If You! are fitted. Meaning the singular self, embarking upon the Great Work.
Not all in The Game of Pan, is necessarily a game. }

For the reading of that which follows is Recorded.

{From Within, and from Without. }

Such is the Evidence I've provided,
that Aleister Crowley, as "The Master" he indeed was,
provided a working method of "Self Initiation" to all men and women,
as members in His Order, so long as they are
willing and readily "adept" for the stripping off of---the dross of the mundane life;
that the Real Self of each singular Star,
be fully realized, and initiated into the Spiritual Life of the Adepti.

93! 93! 93!


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/01/2010 10:34 am  

Thanks sonofthestar for pointing out and explaining how A. Crowley "makes it as plain as possible that it is the candidate alone" based on "his/her own work and initiative" who succeed or fail as regarding initiation.

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-3949.phtml is a hyperlink to the thread "A.'.A.'. Membership."

Here Horemakhet informs about Pyramidos being a ritual for "self initiation", moyal states that true initiation always is self-initiation, and Shiva informs about A.'.A.'. initiation progress being centered around one teacher guiding one student.

In light of this thread's subject "Thelema/Magick's semblance to religion in general", I ask:

*Is the focus on one's own responsibility alone for succeeding as an initiate, and the focus on self-initiation within A. Crowley's Thelema, a change from the traditions of initiation within earlier religions/faiths/belief systems?

**That is, A. Crowley in his writings obviously intended Thelema to transcend and surpass all religions before Thelema, but has he written anything about his Thelema's system for initiation as intended to transcend and surpass all earlier traditions - or systems - of initiation?

***Or is he more arguing along the line of restoring what initiation or 'true initiation' was allways ment to be, that is, self-initiation for which one is oneself alone fully responsible?


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spike418
(@spike418)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 213
16/01/2010 11:29 am  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Here Horemakhet informs about Pyramidos being a ritual for "self initiation", moyal states that true initiation always is self-initiation, and Shiva informs about A.'.A.'. initiation progress being centered around one teacher guiding one student.

Perhaps the teacher does not need to be human ❓


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 486
16/01/2010 2:37 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
*Is the focus on one's own responsibility alone for succeeding as an initiate, and the focus on self-initiation within A. Crowley's Thelema, a change from the traditions of initiation within earlier religions/faiths/belief systems?

If you read Miguel Molinos "The Spiritual Guide" which is on the A.'.A.'. reading list it is pretty clear that Thelema as a spiritual system is not alone in advocating the responsibility of the individual in his approach to attainment of these various states.

I do think that the A.'.A.'. is slightly bit more complext than many believes it is though. The tasks and oaths of the outer college makes it plain that not only does advancement through it involve involvement in dramatic rituals as initiations, but also that the work needs to be approved and passed by a superior testing one. Moreover the official stance of the A.'.A.'. is well demonstrated in the editorial of Equinox I:4 concerning this subject:

"It should, moreover, be remembered, that although knowledge can be imparted through books, skill cannot be attained except by practice; and in most cases it is better that practice should be carried out under instruction."

Regarding the recent debacle about III:1 and the O.T.O. as a religious or magical society.

I would also like to note that Crowley advertised the O.T.O. not as a magical Order (in fact in a letter to Frank Bennett from 1916 he explicitely noted that it ought to not be put forward "as an occult society" and in a letter to W.B. Crow at the end of his life he points out that as organizers of the O.T.O. they ought to focus strictly on promulgating Thelema and gain new recruits rather than on technical subjects such as the tarot) but rather as a religious society and Order(in III:1 which published many of the documents that has been referenced here he makes it plain that it is the first of the great religious societies to accept the Law of Thelema and that it trains people by successive initiation). A religious Order is a substrata of a religion, one that enforces religious discipline.

That is, A. Crowley in his writings obviously intended Thelema to transcend and surpass all religions before Thelema, but has he written anything about his Thelema's system for initiation as intended to transcend and surpass all earlier traditions - or systems - of initiation?

Yes, constantly in the editorials of the Equinox.


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ianrons
(@ianrons)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 1126
16/01/2010 4:16 pm  

Re: the quote from Eqx. III:1 about OTO being a religious Order, the quote is from Khabs Am Pekht, and goes as follows: "This Order is but the first of the great religious bodies to accept this Law officially..."

I find it interesting that this has morphed into, and is commonly quoted as, "O.T.O. is the first of the great Old Æon orders to accept The Book of the Law" (e.g., in the OTO Wikipedia entry and US OTO "about" page), the word "religious" having been subtly expurgated and at the same time identified with the concept of the "Old Aeon"; which is a neat summation of the views of most Thelemites on the subject!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
16/01/2010 7:37 pm  
"ianrons" wrote:
Re: the quote from Eqx. III:1 about OTO being a religious Order, the quote is from Khabs Am Pekht, and goes as follows: "This Order is but the first of the great religious bodies to accept this Law officially..."

I find it interesting that this has morphed into, and is commonly quoted as, "O.T.O. is the first of the great Old Æon orders to accept The Book of the Law" (e.g., in the OTO Wikipedia entry and US OTO "about" page), the word "religious" having been subtly expurgated and at the same time identified with the concept of the "Old Aeon"; which is a neat summation of the views of most Thelemites on the subject!

Good point, Ian, and, again, I would emphasize that the offense taken at the use of the word "religious" by many Thelemites is ultimately irrational and is mostly the result of associating, consciously or otherwise, the word with historical abuses and even atrocities against populations, as well the personal trauma of past experience with old aeon religion. The gist of the position is that Thelema is more, better or different from past uses of the word "religion," ergo, Thelema cannot be religion or religious.

It seems that it is perfectly acceptable for the sciences, for example, to evolve over time as the human race itself evolves but, when it comes to religion, it cannot evolve without changing its name to something with less offensive and shameful connotation. Kind of odd, because the course of the history of science has certainly had its share of gross error, harm and abuse. It has, however, been allowed to evolve with the human race without changing its name.

Personally, I do not have much immediate use for religion per se, but I am cognizant of the fact that some other Thelemites do. Further, I recognize a pattern of evolution from polytheism to monotheism to Thelema that would inevitably justify the course of religious evolution as an ultimately necessary, albeit painful and protracted, progression toward the realization and identification of mankind with the divine, and the religious instinct with the sexual instinct.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
17/01/2010 9:15 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:

I agree with your suggestion to stop speculating about possible alignments between Thelema and the The cultural explosion of the '60's, it is good that you bring to an end this speculation that you started.

I made no such suggestion. Again, another nice attempt at misdirection by giving an obviously skewered interpretation to what I wrote. The suggestion I made was, to stop fantasizing about what AC may have thought about events that happened long after his death.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Hippies were one aspect of the '60's not the whole thing. It seems a vague, and overgeneralized designation. Anyway, with the large numbers that the Thelemic current influenced and reached in the '60's, there's bound to be a certain percentage who get lost or miss the point.

I see, more speculation - "with the large numbers that the Thelemic current influenced and reached in the '60's" - would that be "large numbers" compared to the number of persons "influenced and reached" by Christianity in its various versions at that time, or compared to the total population of the planet at that time, how vague and speculative do you want it to be?

Wrong. It's neither vague nor speculative. That Crowley profoundly influenced several leading counter-cultural figures including the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Timothy Leary, David Bowie among others is documented fact. That those cultural icons influenced large numbers of people and exposed them to Thelemic ideology is documented fact.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
Promoting the doctrines and practices of Thelema doesn't translate as actively converting or attracting followers. Those doctrines and practices can be promoted without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning Aleister Crowley.

First: Would promoting the doctrines and practices of Thelema without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning Aleister Crowley, be "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" in any stringent way?

Yes, although I don't know where the demand to promulgate Thelema 'in any stringent way' comes from or what that actually means.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Second: Do you have any source[-s] confirming that Crowley intended "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" to be done without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning him?

Only from memory. I recall a passage somewhere of AC mentioning an adept (most likely Gurdjieff) who had attained using methods completely different from Thelemic inspired ones. Crowley was making the point that one doesn't have to blindly follow his system to get transformative results.

I also don't recall any specific rules or dogma given by Crowley on how to promulgate the Law. Can you prove otherwise?

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
AC apparently didn't make clear his intentions regarding organizing a religious movement. He contradicts himself in the "easily available source material," as per the MWT quote above. Also, you've failed to provide a quote that makes clear his intentions.

So you see no indications in the quotes provided by me in this and earlier posting, from sources like Liber CI and Liber CXXIV, his selfbiography Confessions quoted by me further down in this posting, his own comments to The Book of the Law, where he describes Thelema's religious qualities/aspects, compares it to other religions, describes it as proving the external existence of God[-s] or god[-s], calles it a religion, and describes it as all-encompassing and all-explaining, quoted by me further down in this posting, and personal writing where he envisions churches with over 25 000 members (Source: http://thykaaba.livejournal.com/860.html "Resources and the O.T.O. - Part I: Cultural continuity;"), of Crowley's intentions regarding organizing something also encompassing a religious movement?

I see lots of quotes regarding an ideal, utopian religion as it relates to Thelema,and suggestions for religious practices, but nothing about organizing and setting up a religious movement, attracting followers, converting people etc. espicially along the lines of Scientology, Mormonism, Xtianity, Islam or any of the old aeon religions you attempt to compare Thelema to.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
To my first time quoting Liber CXXIV, you Zardoz replied:
"Very nice instructions for a magical order with a vital religious component. If anything, the opening lines suggest a service based community."

Yes, traditionally an important part of a religious congregation has been to function as a community, readily also a service based community. This must be obvious to you living in the USA where many people spend much - or most - of their spare time in their congregation[-s].

Being serviced based doesn't make it a religion. There are many service based organizations that aren't religious.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
In light of claims about Thelema not being faith based, I took a quick look at its most holy text.

From that I realized that being a Thelemite involves faith in that the law of Thelema "shall regenerate the world", as it says in The Book of the Law, in verse 53 of the first chapter. A belief system being presented as involving faith in some kind of redemtion for the world, is nothing new.

Do you have faith in the law of Thelema's "world regenerating" quality Zardos?

For me, it's not a question of faith. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it . One doesn't need faith in what some authority says about the pudding's taste.

So now you have me contradicting Crowley's own words, as reckless and blasphemous a deed as any Thelemite could imagine. Maybe I should be excommunicated... oh, wait a minute, there's nothing to excommunicate me from.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
In an essay titled "Why Thelemites Lack Enlightenment", the author describes Crowley's intention with Thelema like this:

"Basically he was trying to create a religion to socially and spiritually satisfy the masses, attracting a large enough parish to fulfill all of the functions of the church, while at the same time leaving the group open to, and open ended enough to attract, those seeking enlightenment. The spiritual aspect of Thelema was really only meant for the unenlightened among the masses, not the enlightened who were there to receive the social benefits of the religion, not the spiritual.

A bizarre and baseless opinion. Apparently has nothing whatsoever to do with AC's intentions. The Gnostic Mass is intended only as a social function for enlightened people? I guess enlightened beings have no need to connect with the magical current at the heart of the Gnostic Mass?

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Thelema has not done well in attracting general parishioners, who seem content to remain with Christianity, and without these parishioners there is no point in keeping Thelema around, because it fails to serve anybody in any capacity."

(Source: http://robjo.wordpress.com/category/thelema/ "Why Thelemites Lack Enlightenment", by Osirus Silverfang alias Rob:).

It doesn't attract parishioners because Thelema is not an organized religion. The O.T.O. is not an organized religion even if it is a religious body. Thelema serves many people in many capacities even if it isn't an organized religion.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Rob does have a good point in showing that the largest OTO today is significantly smaller than Crowley clearly envisoned it to be in Liber CI, and thus to small to "fulfill the community functions of the church", as intended by him in Liber CI and in Liber CXXIV.

Yes, the OTO may have smaller numbers than Crowley hoped for, although I don't recall a timeline for when these numbers are to be expected. The aeon of Horus is still very, very young. Also, the OTO is far from being the entire Thelemic culture.

In the Confessions, starting on p. 848, Crowley gives a clear account of what he was trying to accomplish. It starts out:

"But so far as I understand it at all, it seems as if my work were to construct a model of a new civilization to replace that which we see before our eyes reeling towards catastrophe....

I will only say that my main idea had been to found a community on the principles of The Book of the Law, to form an archetype of a new society. The main ethical principle is that each human being has his own definite object in life. He has every right to fulfil this purpose, and none to do anything else. It is the business of the community to help each of its members to achieve this aim; in consequence
all rules should be made, and all questions of policy decided, by the application of this principle to the circumstances..."

He goes on for about 7 pages elaborating in detail the place and benefits of the Law of Thelema in the world. There is absolutely no mention or even the slightest hint that he intends to organize a religion.

I added all the emphasis above.


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Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
Member
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 319
17/01/2010 11:06 pm  

wellredwellred wrote: Do you have any source[-s] confirming that Crowley intended "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" to be done without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning him?

p.657 of The Confessions:

"Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'.A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists."


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
18/01/2010 3:10 pm  

"All gods are protective phantasies born of the sense of inferiority, either to Nature's power or that of other men; Freud showed this well enough. they make me more confident and may frighten the other man. They are the Big Brother to whom the boy threatens to complain when he is kicked or has his marbles taken. They are in their maker's image because man can't create, but only combine, exaggerate, and so on."

(Source: www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/COS.pdf Crowley, Aleister(Symonds & Grant Ed.), The Magical Record of the Best 666. : MontrealNext Step publications, 1971, pages #180-181).

Patriarch156, tanks for your information regarding initiation within Thelema, and your information on Crowley's advertisement of the OTO, not as a magical Order, but rather as a religious society and Order, throughout all of his life from 1916 until his death in 1947, and for pointing out the following details:

"A religious Order is a substrata of a religion, one that enforces religious discipline."

ianrons and Camlion, you both provide interesting observations on the common enmity against terms such as "religous" and "religion" among Thelemites.

In light of the philosophy and theology which the ancient Egyptians pursued enabling them to sustain their culture for over three thousand years, or the philosophy and theology that the plurality of religious phenomena originating and based on the Vedic traditions - gathered under the umbrella term Hinduism - have pursued, enabling also them to sustain their culture for over three thousand years, this common enmity might be a serious problem for the long term future of Thelema.

At the top of this posting I have provided a quote from Crowley showing a moment of apparent uncertainty and materialism. The eventual publication of Crowley's entire diaries might give us more examples of such apparent uncertainty.

It is not his apparent uncertainty, but Crowley seemingly contradicting himself at the end of his life on the HGA question, in him claiming the HGA is a separate individual in the book Aleister Explains Everything/Magick Without Tears, which draws my attention. This claim is referred to in the quote from Los further down in this posting.

In this connection I also find it peculiar that Crowley in the same book, also seemingly contradict himself when he argue against calling Thelema a religion.

Are these apparent contradictions indications of that his mental abilities were waning in the writing of Aleister Explains Everything/Magick Without Tears, or is Los wrong in writing that this book "is one of the
very few isolated instances towards the end of his life in which by Crowley claims the HGA is a separate individual"?

I doubt that these two apparent contradictions in Aleister Explains Everything/Magick Without Tears, are indications of Crowley's mental abilities were waning, because this "book is considered by many as evidence that Crowley remained lucid and mentally capable at the end of his life, despite his addiction to heroin (prescribed for his chronic emphysema)", according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick_Without_Tears

Crowley's apparent contradiction in arguing against calling Thelema a religion, can have been influenzed by his conflict with the then leader of thr O.T.O. in the USA, Wilfred Talbot Smith (1885-1957), which had failed miserably with a "Church of Thelema", incorporated by the selfsame Smith in Los Angeles 1934.

As already mentioned by me in an earlier posting in this thread, neither do we know the content of the letter which Crowley replied to, when arguing against calling Thelema a religion.

"Los" wrote:
As it turns out, that latter quote about the HGA is one of the very few isolated instances towards the end of his life in which by Crowley claims the HGA is a separate individual. Elsewhere, throughout his entire career, Crowley is quite clear that the HGA is a symbol.

The quote where Crowley claims the HGA is a separate individual, which. Los is here referring to, is in the book Aleister Explains Everything/Magick Without Tears.

"Aleisterion" wrote:
wellredwellred wrote: Do you have any source[-s] confirming that Crowley intended "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" to be done without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning him?

p.657 of The Confessions:

"Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'.A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists."

Aleisterion, this quote does not cover "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" as defined by Crowley - for more on Crowley's definition of "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" see further down in this posting. As Crowley interpreted Thelema to be all-encompassing, for more on Crowley's interpretation of Thelema as encompassing, trancending and surpassing all earlier religions, philosophies and so forth, see the longest of my most recent postings in this thread.

It is only logical that also many people who had/have never heard about the Thelemic A.'.A.'.,"may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'.A.'.", when Thelema is all-encompassing.

This is somewhat similar to when Paul in The New Testament write that also people who have never known about Christ will be saved, "because they have/had the law written in their hearts."

Crowley quotes on "promulgation of the Law of Thelema":

"Liber CCC Book 300 Khabs am Pekht

This Epistle is important in that it helps place the work of the O.T.O. as a temporal organization in perspective. Addressed by The Master Therion to his magical Son Frater V.I.O. 8°=3° (Parzival X° O.T.O.), it has a special relevance to modern times. It first appeared in The Equinox I(3) (Detroit: Universal, 1919). Most of the quotations are from Liber Legis -The Book of the Law.--H.B.

AN EPISTLE OF THERION 9°=2°, A MAGUS OF A.·.A.·. TO HIS SON, BEING AN INSTRUCTION IN A MATTER OF ALL IMPORTANCE, TO WIT, THE MEANS TO BE TAKEN TO EXTEND THE DOMINION OF THE LAW OF THELEMA THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD."

"Note, pray thee, the instruction in CCXX I:41-n-44, 51, 61, 63 k.t.l. on which We have enlarged in Our tract The Law of Liberty, and in private letters to thee and to others. The open preaching of this Law, and the practice of these precepts, will arouse discussion and animosity, and thus place thee upon a rostrum whence thou mayst speak unto the people."

.....

"Note, pray thee, further, in verse 39, how the matter proceeds:

"All this"--i.e. The Book of the Law itself.
"and a book to say how didst come hither" i.e. some record such as that in The Temple of Solomon the King.
"And a reproduction of this ink and paper for ever" i.e. by some mechanical process, with possibly a sample of paper similar to that employed. "--for in it is the word secret and not only in the English--" Compare CCXX III:47, 73. The secret is still a secret to Us.

"And thy comment upon this the Book of the Law shall be printed beautifully in red ink and black upon beautiful paper made by hand;" i.e. explain the text "lest there be folly" as it says above, CCXX I:36.

"And to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!"

From this it is evident that a volume must be prepared as signified-- Part IV of Book 4 was intended to fulfil this purpose--and that this book must be distributed widely, in fact to every one with whom one comes into social relations.We are not to add to this gift by preaching and the like. They can take it or leave it.

Note, pray thee, verse 41 of this chapter:

"Establish at thy Kaaba a clerk-house; all must be done well and with business way."

This is very clear instruction indeed. There is to be a modern centralized business organization at the Kaaba which, We think, does not mean Boleskine, but any convenient headquarters.

Note, pray thee, in verse 42 of this chapter the injunction: "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch.

This is not any bar to an explanation of the Law. We may aid men to strike off their own fetters; but those who prefer slavery must be allowed to do so. "The slaves shall serve." The excellence of the Law must be showed by its results upon those who accept it. When men see us as the hermits of Hadit described in CCXX II:24, they will determine to emulate our joy. Note, pray thee, the whole implication of the chapter that sooner or later we are to break the power of the slaves of the slave-gods by actual fighting. Ultimately, Freedom must rely upon the sword. "

..................…

"1. All those who have accepted the Law should announce the same in daily intercourse. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" shall be the invariable form of greeting. These words, especially in the case of strangers, should be pronounced in a clear, firm, and articulate voice, with the eyes frankly fixed upon the bearer. If the other be of us, let him reply "Love is the law, love under will." The latter sentence shall also be used as the greeting of farewell. In writing, wherever greeting is usual, it should be as above, opening "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", and closing "Love is the law, love under will."

2. Social gatherings should be held as often as is convenient, and there the Law should be read and explained.

3. The special tracts written by Us, or authorized by Us, should be distributed to all persons with whom those who have accepted the Law may be in contact.

4. Pending the establishment of other Universities and Schools of Thelema, scholarships and readerships and such should be provided in existing Schools and Universities, so as to secure the general study of Our writings, and those authorized by Us as pertaining to the New Aeon.

5. All children and young people, although they may not be able to understand the more exalted heavens of our horoscope, may always be taught to rule their lives in accordance with the Law. No efforts should be spared to bring them to this emancipation. The misery caused to children by the operation of the law of the slave-gods was, one may say, the primum mobile of Our first aspiration to overthrow the Old Law.

6. By all manner of means shall all strive constantly to increase the power and freedom of the Headquarters of the O.T.O.; for thereby will come efficiency in the promulgation of the Law. Specific instructions for the extension of the O.T.O. are given in another epistle.

Constant practice of these recommendations will develop skill in him or her that practiseth, so that new ideas and plans will be evolved continually.

Furthermore, it is right that each and every one bind himself with an Oath Magical that he may thus make Freedom perfect, even by a bond, as in Liber III it is duly written. Amen."

..................….

"Let this epistle be copied and circulated among all those that have accepted the Law of Thelema."

(Sources: http://www.the-equinox.org/vol3/eqv3n1/eq0301171.htm and http://ararita.org/content/promulgation-law-thelema ).

"zardoz" wrote:
That Crowley profoundly influenced several leading counter-cultural figures including the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Timothy Leary, David Bowie among others is documented fact. That those cultural icons influenced large numbers of people and exposed them to Thelemic ideology is documented fact.

http://www.poetry-archive.com/c/crowley_aleister_bibliography.html

The hyper link above covers the bibliography over all published books by or about A. Crowley until til 2004, it showes a gap in publishing between Book of Thoth published in 1944, and Roll Away the Stone: An Introduction to Aleister Crowley's Essays on the Psychology of Hashish by Israel Regardie published in 1968, and The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography published in 1969.

We have to believe that enormous numbers of people were running down special libraries and antiquarian bookstores, and that they were lending the few copies of relevant books to each other at supernatural speed, to fulfill your wishful fantasy of the "the cultural explosion of the 1960's" as "very aligned to Thelemic principals."

"The cultural explosion of the 1960's" was dominated by rebellion against authority and demonstratitions against war[-s].

What has A. Crowley to say about the First World War?:

"FIRSTLY, let thine attention be directed to this planet, how the Aeon of Horus is made manifest by the Universal War. This is the first great and direct result of the Equinox of the Gods, and is the preparation of the hearts of men for the reception of the Law."

(Source: Liber CCC Book 300 Khabs am Pekht http://www.the-equinox.org/vol3/eqv3n1/eq0301171.htm ).

The quote above is how A. Crowley starts Liber CCC, a text covering promulgation of the Law of Thelema, from this we see that he describes the First World War as useful for promulgation of the Law of Thelema.

"The cultural explosion of the 1960's" can not be understood without remembering the common fear at that time of humanity destroying itself in a nuclear Third World War.

What has A. Crowley to say about a humanly caused cathastroph killing 90% of USA's population?:

"You seem to regard with apprehension the annihilation of 90% of the malignant and stupid insects which you describe. Personally, I cannot see that it matters two hoots. What we want is the establishment of a principle; in the same way, the Commander-in-Chief unhesitatingly flings men by the hundred thousand into the jaws of destruction -- that his cause may triumph. I cannot see much point in pretending to be sorry about it.

I don't know whether these remarks help you at all, even so far as the explanation of my own position goes; in fact, the question arises whether I have a position. I am the servant of those who sent forth the Book of the Law.

I can really do little more than refer every enquirer to that Book."

(Source: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0600.htm#ps2 Letter from A. Crowley to Grady L. McMurtrty 2nd March, 1943).

Aleister Crowley certainly outhitlered the Fuehrer by far on that one, didn't he?

Keep in mind Crowley "in fact" questioning if he have a personal position at all, being only the servant of those who sent forth the most holy text of Thelema, senders for whom war - even on a nearly apocalyptic scale - can be useful, when you answer my following question:

Was "the cultural explosion of the 1960's",... "very aligned to Thelemic principals", as seen in the light of the two quotes from A. Crowley above, from the First- and the Second World War respectively?

As for your information about it both being a documented fact that certain "cultural icons influenced large numbers of people and exposed them to Thelemic ideology", and a documented fact "that Crowley profoundly influenced several leading counter-cultural figures including the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Timothy Leary, David Bowie among others", this is very good indeed.

Can you mention and/or refere me to between 5 and 10 documents comfirming both of these documented facts? I am especially anticipating 2 or 3 documents confirming that cultural icons exposed large numbers of people "to Thelemic ideology."

"zardoz" wrote:
I don't know where the demand to promulgate Thelema 'in any stringent way' comes from or what that actually means.

I will try to explain it, and don't you be afraid to ask if there is anything else.

"zardoz" wrote:
I also don't recall any specific rules or dogma given by Crowley on how to promulgate the Law. Can you prove otherwise?

Yes, but remain relaxed and feel free to ignore any such specific rules or dogma if that be your fancy.

What Crowley intended promulgation of the Law of Thelema to be is clear from the quotes above under the subhead- title Crowley quotes on "promulgation of the Law of Thelema":, and this promulgation of the Law of Thelema involves:

a)Open preaching of Thelema.
b)Formal mentioning of Thelema in all your communication with other persons.
c)Wide distribution of Thelema in written form, particularly its most holy text.
d)Being ready to do actual armed fighting for Thelema.
e)Social gatherings so often as is convenient where the Law shall be read and explained.
f)Distribution of special tracts written by Crowley - or those authorized by him - to all persons with whom one may be in contact.
g)Striving to make the Thelemic writings by Crowley - or those [Thelemic-]writings authorized by him - the general study of existing schools and universities, and future [Thelemic-]schools and universities.
h)Teaching all children and young people to live in accordance with Thelema.
i)Enhancing the efficiency in the promulgation of the Law, by constantly striving to increase the power and freedom of organized Thelema.
j)On the basis of skilles developed from the constant practice of the already mentioned points, continously evolving new ideas and plans for promulgation of the Law of Thelema.
k)Binding oneself with a magical[SIC!] oath to the cause of promulgation of the Law of Thelema.
l)Making copies of and circulating this text among all who haved accepted Thelema.

If you define yourself as a Thelemite, do you do this according to the clear standards intended and provided by Thelema's prophet, as clearly seen in the quoted source material above, Zardoz?

"zardoz" wrote:
For me, it's not a question of faith. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it . One doesn't need faith in what some authority says about the pudding's taste.

So now you have me contradicting Crowley's own words, as reckless and blasphemous a deed as any Thelemite could imagine. Maybe I should be excommunicated... oh, wait a minute, there's nothing to excommunicate me from.

The quote above is your reply to my question about if you have faith in that the law of Thelema "shall regenerate the world", as it says in The Book of the Law, in verse 53 of the first chapter, Zardoz.

If your reply is contradicting anyone it is not so much A. Crowley, it is more a direct contradiction of The Book of the Law itself, and its messenger, Aiwass. Remember that I gave you the chance, written with emphasized letters, not to comment upon The Book of the Law. I hope you were aware of that there is a dogma in Thelema on not commenting upon its most holy text in public, or with other persons.

I agree to that "there's nothing to excommunicate me from" for you, as your interpretation of Thelema comes across as significantly less demanding and stringent then its prophet's interpretation of it.

"zardoz" wrote:
In the Confessions, starting on p. 848, Crowley gives a clear account of what he was trying to accomplish. It starts out:

"But so far as I understand it at all, it seems as if my work were to construct a model of a new civilization to replace that which we see before our eyes reeling towards catastrophe....

I will only say that my main idea had been to found a community on the principles of The Book of the Law, to form an archetype of a new society. The main ethical principle is that each human being has his own definite object in life. He has every right to fulfil this purpose, and none to do anything else. It is the business of the community to help each of its members to achieve this aim; in consequence all rules should be made, and all questions of policy decided, by the application of this principle to the circumstances..."

He goes on for about 7 pages elaborating in detail the place and benefits of the Law of Thelema in the world.

There is absolutely no mention or even the slightest hint that he intends to organize a religion.

I added all the emphasis above.

What Crowley is presenting in your quote from Confessions is the main ethical principle of Thelema, ethical principles are what one can expect to find in any religion.

As you have mentioned Gurdjieff in your two most recent posting in this thread Zardoz, I will - as information and/or amusement for you and all other possible readers - mention the following experience I had while studying to become a teacher;

Teaching a class of 14 years old kids on World War One, I told them about this clever mathematician named Ouspensky searching for the meaning of life, and eventually finding himself a teacher on this subject, a man named Gurdjieff, from some remote and wild mountain region in Caucasus.

Further I told them that this clever mathematician Ouspensky found it hard to comprehend Gurdjieff’s insistence on that humanity is living in a type of hypnosis, until he in 1916 saw trucks loaded with artificial legs, headed
toward the front, and then remembering that it is possible to calculate how many legs will be blown off in a battle.

I then presented the kids with Ouspensky's realization of this very calculation being based on the historical fact that most people most of the time will do what they are told by Superiors, a realization which gave Ouspenky a better comprehension of Gurdijeff's - his "teacher on the meaning of life" - insistence on that humanity is living in a type of hypnosis.

This information from outside of school pensum/curriculum, caused a high level of attention and shocked realization of the dangers of unthinking obediense, among the young pupils in this class.

(The source I used as basis for my anecdote: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/search_miraculous.pdf
IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS FRAGMENTS OF AN UNKNOWN TEACHING by P. D. OUSPENSKY, pages #58-59).

A closing remark:

Going to India this week, I will keep this information from uncle Aleister in mind, so as not to be disappointed:

""The Indian." The religion of Hindustan, metaphysically and mystically comprehensive enough to assure itself the possession of much truth, is in practice almost as superstitious and false as Christianity, a faith of slaves,
liars and dastards. The same remarks apply roughly to Buddhism."

(Source: http://www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comments.html The Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL by Aleister Crowley, L I B E R A L vel L E G I S sub figura CCXX as delivered by (LXXVIII) XCIII unto DCLXVI with a commentary by T H E B E A S T. The New Comment to AL III,53: "With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.")

[Edited by Moderator to remove dozens of unnecessary carriage returns, as usual in wellredwellbred's posts. Text unchanged.]


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the_real_simon_iff
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18/01/2010 7:51 pm  

93!

Wellredwellbred, this thread has become so uncredibly boring to me and although I chose never to comment on anything (not to feed the troll, as it was said), I have to admit that I really had a heartily laugh when reading that you are a teacher! (or at least studied to become one, so maybe you are not) The tone of your posts, the way you pretend to talk to people directly, this unending quoting of sources that sound in some way "scientific", this constant "thanks for your reply, it was very helpful, but have you considered the following blahblah" ... this is just the perfect caricature of a teacher. The real teacher from hell! A teacher! Now it is all so clear!

Sorry, wellredwellbred, I just had to spit that out, you can go on collecting material for your next lecture to 14 year olds. Or whatever it is you are striving for. It clearly is not any form of understanding as far as I can see (I admit that I could not be brought to read the whole of this thread). Reading through your (in my view) total mis-understanding of the 60's/70's period and the influences on its intellectual leadership, and your recent comments on AC's militaristic views (booh!) as well as your total ignorance of how to use source materials, I currently favor the trolling theory again...

And one thing more, wellredwellbred, and other teachers on this forum: Luckily I had pretty good and competent teachers in my youth. But through my kids - and neighbourhood - I get to know much more these days. Combine all the prejudices that exist - and out comes wellredwellbred. Of course only in my humble opinion, and I might have had a beer too much today...

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
This information from outside of school pensum/curriculum, caused a high level of attention and shocked realization of the dangers of unthinking obediense, among the young pupils in this class.

It would be nice if you can provide five or more signed documents from your pupils to confirm this "anecdote". I simply find it unbelievable that it is true. But of course I don't really care, it just doesn't sound like something you would do ...

Love=Law
Lutz


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the_real_simon_iff
(@the_real_simon_iff)
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18/01/2010 8:12 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
The hyper link above covers the bibliography over all published books by or about A. Crowley until til 2004, it showes a gap in publishing between Book of Thoth published in 1944, and Roll Away the Stone: An Introduction to Aleister Crowley's Essays on the Psychology of Hashish by Israel Regardie published in 1968, and The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography published in 1969.

Thank you, wellredwellbred, for your link, I see it covers the bibliograpy of ALL published books by or about Crowley. What nonsense! If you had the decency/will/intelligence to check out the bibliography of the same site you are posting on, you will find 43 AC titles published between 1944 and 1969 (the ones about him not included, which are probably another dozen or so), hundreds of titles (and a vast amount of articles) in the 1970ies. NOT that the amount of published books would matter! But you mentioned it.

Return to your seat, wellredwellbred, F!

Love=Law
Lutz


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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18/01/2010 8:17 pm  

93!

Hi wellredwellbred !

This is certainly a most intense, and robust thread you've started here.

For the moment, the only thing I would desire to address, is “The Indian Thing”.
From those quotes you've given of AC commenting on the people and religion of Hindustan, it would seem to paint The Beast in a somewhat bad light----but what he said, “Was” somewhat,
absolutely true, if we take into consideration that:

Back in the day, along side the existence of the most enriching spiritual works of the ancient Hindu sages, (such works as those providing wonderful examples of advanced spiritual/yoga methods comprising wonderfully workable techniques of a physical and mental kind) ---you also had such ridiculously despicable practices as fully alive widows, following their dead husbands to the grave by acts of volitional self cremation unto interment.
These unwholesome cultural impositions---whether originating from such illuminating works as ancient Hindustan produced, or from lesser works of various “guardian sages and interrupters ” of such original works---was if I recollect, eventually eradicated under the “civilizing” aspects of English rule.
The same thing with the Thuggies, etc.

So yes, on one hand we have very edifying writ produced by the finest examples of those illuminated sages of ancient Hindustan----and on the other hand---the odiously superstitious practice I make mention of.
Meaning---AC was quite on the mark in this light!
Unless someone here would venture to say that such actions by these Hindu Widows, were acts of will of course; but I venture to say that such actions were merely examples of what the superstitious aspects of their culture had imposed upon them.
These poor widows, would sadly fall into the category of slaves---
---being that such things were “expected of them”.

Things have changed since then; so we must be fair to AC,
by not applying his words about Hindustan, to anything he was referencing---
other than to what was going on prior to, or at the same time---
those things were written by him.
His harsh words---should not be taken as applicable---to the present state of Indian Culture.

I am not quite certain, as to exactly when such horrible silliness as grieving widows,
following their deceased hubbies into the grave, was stopped, or
even if it has kicked up again, now that India has gained her independence from England.
Let's hope they did not throw the baby out with the bath water!

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your trip to India!
I’ve found a great incense made in India once, called Chandan 666---!
Advertised as being great for pooja.
It’s discontinued from what I hear, but is still available under a new name---Incense 777.

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
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18/01/2010 9:37 pm  
"sonofthestar" wrote:
I am not quite certain, as to exactly when such horrible silliness as grieving widows,
following their deceased hubbies into the grave, was stopped, or
even if it has kicked up again, now that India has gained her independence from England.
Let's hope they did not through the baby out with the bath water!

As much as we may prefer Buddhism and Hinduism to, say, Judaism, Christianity or Islam, they do not seem to be in practice what they are in theory, at least not in the countries that embrace them. Visits to these countries are recommended before drawing conclusions, imo.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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18/01/2010 9:43 pm  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
Thank you, wellredwellbred, for your link, I see it covers the bibliograpy of ALL published books by or about Crowley. What nonsense! If you had the decency/will/intelligence to check out the bibliography of the same site you are posting on, you will find 43 AC titles published between 1944 and 1969 (the ones about him not included, which are probably another dozen or so), hundreds of titles (and a vast amount of articles) in the 1970ies. NOT that the amount of published books would matter! But you mentioned it.

Doh! You beat me to it… 😉

And this is why, wellredwellbred, if you're going to rely upon the Internet for all your research, you need to be confident about the quality of the resource.

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 Anonymous
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18/01/2010 10:57 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:

"A religious Order is a substrata of a religion, one that enforces religious discipline."

Thelema has no centralized authority that enforces religious discipline.

In this case, it would read more accurately to say: "A religious Order is a substrata of religion...", religion meaning as thou wilt.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
It is not his apparent uncertainty, but Crowley seemingly contradicting himself at the end of his life on the HGA

question, in him claiming the HGA is a separate individual in the book Aleister Explains Everything/Magick

Without Tears, which draws my attention. This claim is referred to in the quote from Los further down in this posting.

"Los" wrote:
As it turns out, that latter quote about the HGA is one of the very few isolated instances towards the

end of his life in which by Crowley claims the HGA is a separate individual.

Elsewhere, throughout his entire career, Crowley is quite clear that the HGA is a symbol.

He also claimed a separate individual named Aiwass dictated the Book of the Law to him in 1904 and that Aiwass was his HGA. It wasn't something he first formulated toward the end of his life.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"Aleisterion" wrote:
wellredwellred wrote: Do you have any source[-s] confirming that Crowley intended

"promulgation of the Law of Thelema" to be done without ever using the word Thelema or mentioning him?

p.657 of The Confessions:

"Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'.A.'. without ever hearing that such an

Order exists."

Aleisterion, this quote does not cover "promulgation of the Law of Thelema" as defined by Crowley -

Thank-you Aleisterion, it proves the point precisely.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
That Crowley profoundly influenced several leading counter-cultural figures including the Beatles,

Led Zeppelin, Timothy Leary, David Bowie among others is documented fact. That those cultural icons

influenced large numbers of people and exposed them to Thelemic ideology is documented fact.

http://www.poetry-archive.com/c/crowley_aleister_bibliography.html

The hyper link above covers the bibliography over all published books by or about A. Crowley until til 2004, it

showes a gap in publishing between Book of Thoth published in 1944, and Roll Away the Stone: An

Introduction to Aleister Crowley's Essays on the Psychology of Hashish by Israel Regardie published in 1968,

and The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography published in 1969.

We have to believe that enormous numbers of people were running down special libraries and antiquarian bookstores,

and that they were lending the few copies of relevant books to each other at supernatural speed, to fulfill your

wishful fantasy of the "the cultural explosion of the 1960's" as "very aligned to Thelemic principals."

You have no idea what I'm talking about. You are too literal minded to understand what is meant by "aligned to Thelemic principals."

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
What has A. Crowley to say about the First World War?:

Aleister Crowley certainly outhitlered the Fuehrer by far on that one, didn't he?

This is a disgraceful comment. You don't get it at all.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Keep in mind Crowley "in fact" questioning if he have a personal position at all, being only the servant of

those who sent forth the most holy text of Thelema, senders for whom war - even on a nearly apocalyptic scale - can

be useful, when you answer my following question:

Was "the cultural explosion of the 1960's",... "very aligned to Thelemic principals", as seen in the light of

the two quotes from A. Crowley above, from the First- and the Second World War respectively?

It's a ridiculous question based on a ridiculous premise. You still fantasize about what AC would have thought about something that happened years after he died.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
As for your information about it both being a documented fact that certain "cultural icons influenced large

numbers of people and exposed them to Thelemic ideology", and a documented fact "that Crowley profoundly

influenced several leading counter-cultural figures including the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Timothy Leary, David Bowie

among others", this is very good indeed.

Can you mention and/or refere me to between 5 and 10 documents comfirming both of these documented facts?
I am especially anticipating 2 or 3 documents confirming that cultural icons exposed large numbers of people "to

Thelemic ideology."

Google can provide you with what you're looking for. Try searching for Leary and Crowley, Page and Crowley etc.

John Lennon's Instant Karma

Led Zeppelin IV

The Illuminatus Trilogy by Wilson and Shea, an underground best seller in the mid '70's, openly discusses Thelemic ideas. It was turned into a play. People were chanting 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' to the public from a London stage in the late '70's.

Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, a mainstream best seller and SF classic originally published in 1960, has the main character Valentine Michael Smith reading the Book of the Law and contains much in agreement with Thelema. Heinlein was a friend of both Hubbard's and Parsons in the Agape Lodge days.

These are just off the top of my head, it's a whole 'nother subject.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:

I will try to explain it, and don't you be afraid to ask if there is anything else.

Yes, I wish to know why you behave like a troll. This is especially embarrassing because I gave you the benefit of the doubt only to get proven wrong.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
If you define yourself as a Thelemite, do you do this according to the clear standards intended and provided by

Thelema's prophet, as clearly seen in the quoted source material above, Zardoz?

No, I'm not a religious fanatic.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
For me, it's not a question of faith. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it . One doesn't need faith in

what some authority says about the pudding's taste.

So now you have me contradicting Crowley's own words, as reckless and blasphemous a deed as any Thelemite could

imagine. Maybe I should be excommunicated... oh, wait a minute, there's nothing to excommunicate me from.

The quote above is your reply to my question about if you have faith in that the law of Thelema "shall regenerate

the world", as it says in The Book of the Law, in verse 53 of the first chapter, Zardoz.

If your reply is contradicting anyone it is not so much A. Crowley, it is more a direct contradiction of The

Book of the Law itself, and its messenger, Aiwass. Remember that I gave you the chance, written with emphasized

letters, not to comment upon The Book of the Law. I hope you were aware of that there is a dogma in Thelema

on not commenting upon its most holy text in public, or with other persons.

You're playing bizarre, juvenile "gotcha" games. It's been recently pointed out that Crowley himself didn't hesitate to publicly comment on The Book of the Law. It's your dogma.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
In the Confessions, starting on p. 848, Crowley gives a clear account of what he was trying to accomplish. It

starts out:

"But so far as I understand it at all, it seems as if my work were to construct a model of a new civilization

to replace that which we see before our eyes reeling towards catastrophe....

I will only say that my main idea had been to found a community on the principles of The Book of the Law, to

form an archetype of a new society. The main ethical principle is that each human being has his own definite

object in life. He has every right to fulfil this purpose, and none to do anything else. It is the business of the

community to help each of its members to achieve this aim; in consequence
all rules should be made, and all questions of policy decided, by the application of this principle to the

circumstances..."

He goes on for about 7 pages elaborating in detail the place and benefits of the Law of Thelema in the world.

There is absolutely no mention or even the slightest hint that he intends to organize a religion.

I added all the emphasis above.

What Crowley is presenting in your quote from Confessions is the main ethical principle of Thelema, ethical

principles are what one can expect to find in any religion.

He presents a comprehensive blueprint for Thelema that has no mention of organizing a religion.

I'm done. No more feeding the troll.


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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18/01/2010 11:38 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
No more feeding the troll.

Good advice that we'd perhaps all be wise to follow.

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mutat
(@mutat)
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19/01/2010 12:18 am  
"lashtal" wrote:
"zardoz" wrote:
No more feeding the troll.

Good advice that we'd perhaps all be wise to follow.

amen!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
19/01/2010 1:04 am  

There is No God but Man. What an adventure! 'Nuff said?


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 Anonymous
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19/01/2010 1:07 am  

Feeding?I thought We were Troll hurlng, or is it that banned as a sport, now?


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 Anonymous
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19/01/2010 11:18 am  
"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
Return to your seat, wellredwellbred, F!

Love=Law
Lutz

I have much to learn for sure, but have I learned anything in regard to the subject matter of this thread?

Weeeeell...., I now know more arguments for not calling Thelema a religion then I did before, and that it does not inherently demand to be treated as such.

And yes, I now also know one more disgraceful comment(thanks to Zardoz for that term) from Aleister Crowley in [dis-]respect of humanity.

A disgraceful comment where he clearly does not give a sh*t if 90% of the population in the continent of America is annihilated.

(Source: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc2000/tlc0600.htm#ps2 (Advise: Search for "Great Chipmunk Experiment" in the link provided). Letter from A. Crowley to Grady L. McMurtrty 2nd March, 1943, (in reply to letter from Gready L. McMurtry January 4, 1942 (Date is a typo for 1943))).

I will be on the lookout in India for that Chandan 666 or Incense 777 that you mentioned sonofthestar.

Ta da for now.


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 Anonymous
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19/01/2010 12:54 pm  

Giving in to the urge to reply to some off-topic remarks, before heading for 'Incredible India':

"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
Luckily I had pretty good and competent teachers in my youth. But through my kids - and neighbourhood - I get to know much more these days.

There are rumours about the pupils also having been better and more competent in the past.

"the_real_simon_iff" wrote:
It would be nice if you can provide five or more signed documents from your pupils to confirm this "anecdote". I simply find it unbelievable that it is true. But of course I don't really care, it just doesn't sound like something you would do ...

It is a pity you don't really care, or else I would have asked you for your snail mail address.

Again, ta da for now.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
19/04/2010 12:22 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
In the Confessions, starting on p. 848, Crowley gives a clear account of what he was trying to accomplish. It

starts out:

"But so far as I understand it at all, it seems as if my work were to construct a model of a new civilization

to replace that which we see before our eyes reeling towards catastrophe....

I will only say that my main idea had been to found a community on the principles of The Book of the Law, to

form an archetype of a new society. The main ethical principle is that each human being has his own definite

object in life. He has every right to fulfil this purpose, and none to do anything else. It is the business of the

community to help each of its members to achieve this aim; in consequence
all rules should be made, and all questions of policy decided, by the application of this principle to the

circumstances..."

He goes on for about 7 pages elaborating in detail the place and benefits of the Law of Thelema in the world.

There is absolutely no mention or even the slightest hint that he intends to organize a religion.

I added all the emphasis above.

"wellredwellbred" wrote:
What Crowley is presenting in your quote from Confessions is the main ethical principle of Thelema, ethical

principles are what one can expect to find in any religion.

"zardoz" wrote:
He presents a comprehensive blueprint for Thelema that has no mention of organizing a religion.

I'm done. No more feeding the troll.

Crowley does not go on for "about 7 pages elaborating in detail the place and benefits of the Law of Thelema in the world", as you wrote Zardoz. Your source is chapter 87 from The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, and this chapter is written on the pages 848-855, that is 8/eight/VIII pages, not 7/seven/VII pages.

For a closer look to confirm this, see: http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter87.html

"There is absolutely no mention or even the slightest hint that he intends to organize a religion", you also wrote Zardoz, about chapter 87 from The Confessions of Aleister Crowley.

On page 850 in chapter 87 from The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Crowley states the following, written in its own clearly marked section in the text, both in the online version hyperlinked to above in this posting, and in the Routledge 1979 edition, and the Penguin 1989 edition, of the printed book version of The confessions of Aleister Crowley:

"It is evident to all serious thinkers that the only hope of saving mankind from a catastrophe so complete that the very name of civilization will perish is in the appearance of a new religion."

The above just mentioned statement about "the appearance of a new religion" being "the only hope of saving mankind" is written after - and must be seen in the light of - this statement on page 849, only one page before page 850:

"Nothing can save the world but the universal acceptance of the Law of Thelema as the sole and sufficient basis of conduct." (This sentence starts at the head of a line in the text on page 849 in the Penguin Arkana edition from 1989 of a printed book version of The confessions og Aleister Crowley, as opposed to the online version of it hyperlinked to above in this posting, where this sentence starts close to the end of a line in the text at the same page number.)

Thus it is clear that Crowley's claim about "the appearance of a new religion" being "the only hope of saving mankind", is a hope that can only be fulfilled by "the universal acceptance of the Law of Thelema as the sole and sufficient basis of conduct."

This is contrary to your claim Zardoz, about chapter 87 from The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, with respect to it containing; "absolutely no mention or even the slightest hint that he intends to organize a religion."

The terms "model of a new civilization" and "archetype of a new society" that you added emphasis to in your quotes from chapter 87 in The confessions of Aleister Crowley, most likely refer to Crowley's experiment with the Abbey of Thelema.

The editors of the Routledge 1979 edition, and the Penguin 1989 edition of The confessions of Aleister Crowley, John Symonds and Kenneth Grant, have titled the last part of this book "PART SIX: At the Abbey of Thelema", and the relevant chapter 87, quoted from by you Zardoz, is located within this part.

Next time you accuse someone of being a troll I suggest being more careful, so as to avoid something like this epic embarrassment on your part, Zardoz. 😉


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lashtal
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19/04/2010 1:37 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Crowley does not go on for "about 7 pages elaborating in detail the place and benefits of the Law of Thelema in the world", as you wrote Zardoz. Your source is chapter 87 from The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, and this chapter is written on the pages 848-855, that is 8/eight/VIII pages, not 7/seven/VII pages.

Oh, for goodness sake, wellredwellbred…

Locked.

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