Surely, the lot of us can come up with something better to discuss.

I would like to discuss whether Thelema has any relevance in a post human-centric age.

Go on then! Turn yourself into a non-human before you start though!

93
Hamal

Go on then! Turn yourself into a non-human before you start though!

Ha ha ha - in some ways we already are.

The chief concern now, in modern occultism, seems to me to be more 'man *in relation to* nature' as opposed to anything else. Look at all the witchcraft groups, all very eco orientated - they seem to be faring rather better than the OTO, and especially in regards to the wonderful material produced by some groups and publishing houses. In that sense Thelema is retrograde, and rather backward looking. As it clearly puts mankind at the center; and I'm not sure that view really represents the world we currently we live in and current concerns. In that sense Christianity is similar it's all about *us* - means self, self orientated and very self'ish.

Interesting, is it not?

"Should he fail, by will or weakness, to make his self-annihilation absolute, he is none the less thrust forth into the Abyss; but instead of being received and reconstructed in the Third Order, as a Babe in the womb of our Lady BABALON, under the Night of Pan, to grow up to be Himself wholly and truly as He was not previously, he remains in the Abyss, secreting his elements round his Ego as if isolated from the Universe, and becomes what is called a "Black Brother"." - One Star in Sight

Yet... is it not homo-centric?

"I will interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my soul."

Kind of self-ish, innit?

All that is, of course, assuming a sense of self.

"The Ipsissimus has no relation as such with any Being: He has no will in any direction, and no Consciousness of any kind involving duality, for in Him all is accomplished; as it is written "beyond the Word and the Fool, yea, beyond the Word and the Fool". [...] He is the Master of the Law of Unsubstantiality (Anatta)."

Interesting perspective, but not how I see it. Modern witchcraft is as much a victim of its own success as it is a benefactor. Witchcraft has become 'fashionable' and fashion unfortunately is pretty shallow. Religion as a fashion accessory. To be honest, it isn't that shocking, maybe it is just more honest. It certainly isn't non human-centric though, the I, me, mine is right there at the core of it.

The modern witchcraft revival naturally attracted a lot of political add ons along the way too. These I see differently, they can be entirely valid for the individual - feminism, ecological concern, socialism. But I've heard all these affirmed as core components of modern witchcraft and I disagree, they tend to be found amongst a sizeable proportion of it's adherents, but they are not of themself an inherent part of the modern craft. When witches direct energy to heal the earth, thats fine, but without some specific focus its results are also entirely unascertainable.

Also when you say faring better I assume you mean in terms of popularity. Is popularity to be our measure of success? You mention materials produced by some groups and publishing houses. I'm sure some are wonderful, but take a look at the groaning overladen shelves of the pagan/witchcraft sections of bookstores will soon reveal a wealth of utter garbage, written by idiots for idiots! Yes Im the guy standing at the bookshelf saying "shit, shit, shit, really shit....". Thelema encompasses the concept of non-human consciousnesses, that's not human centric.

In my experiences there are three major pre-conceptions that put off the crowds that flock to modern witchcraft from exploring Aleister Crowley, the O.T.O and Thelema:

1.) Their perception of Crowley, which is still predominantly that he was an evil devil worshipper. Even those who suspect me might not always have been so wickedly focused worry that they will be led astray down some dark alley by his work.

2.) It's much more intellectually demanding on the whole than modern witchcraft/paganism leading the stupid or lazy to give up even if they start to attempt to process its material. Its also worth saying the manner in which Crowley wrote does not help, but some of his works are more accessible than others.

3.) The perception that in high magic through 'commanding' spirits/forces we are behaving in an arrogant or unfriendly/bullying/wicked way.

I've waffled enough.

93
Hamal

Interesting, is it not?

Yes, some nice quotes there. It's all me! me! me!

then...

[not] me! [not] me! [not] me!

He is this, he is that, he is the other - oh no!

BUT it ALL still relates to the ego! And still puts ''man'' at the center of things, ego or [not] - in my view, that's a weakness! What about trees, hedgehogs, ducks, bees etc Witchcraft is not so ego-centric in that sense.

Witchcraft has become 'fashionable' and fashion unfortunately is pretty shallow.

Ah, depends on the group. I know of some wonderful ones doing some excellent work, really genuine in their beliefs/practices of humankind's relationship to nature.

The birds and the bees, the ducks and the trees, I too like these....

However...

What makes you think they need you interfering.

Also let's not forget Gerald Gardner was in the home guard and owned a sub-machine gun!

;D
93
Hamal

What makes you think they need you interfering.

Oh, they don't, but they become integral to one's view of the world.

And what makes you think they aren't integral to my world view or some other Thelema followers point of view? You seem to jump to a lot of assumptions. Aleister Crowley was exposed to Buddhism and drew richly from eastern traditions, these traditions acknowledge the one-ness of all things. I embrace many of the concepts professed in Buddhism as I suspect do many on this path.

Now if you want to go off and dress up as a flower, and that makes you happy, I am sure no one will object. But don't come running when you sit on a prickly hedgehog, are attacked by bees or ducks and get splinters from trees.

93
Hamal

And what makes you think they aren't integral to my world view or some other Thelema followers point of view? You seem to jump to a lot of assumptions.

Not jumping to assumptions at all, they simply aren't central to the key concerns or tenets of Thelema, which is to do with the Will and the self. I have no idea about you personally, but I am simply making a point, but just look at Liber Oz, if you want more evidence.

"Now if you want to go off and dress up as a flower, and that makes you happy, I am sure no one will object. But don't come running when you sit on a prickly hedgehog, are attacked by bees or ducks and get splinters from trees."

Calm down and go and have a cup of tea!

Failing to understand how any of the above relates to my initial post.

So to repeat for the second time... I mentioned way back and had also been by another poster, in this thread, does anyone know the contents of the schedule/works from the court case.

sent from my mobile.

I think that is because the AA is and always was about the aim of helping the individual to find their own true will and thereby unlock their full potential. Their true will may be to keep ducks, save hedgehogs and hug trees. By benefit of it being a system of self transformation it focuses on the self.

I do understand what you are saying but I think it is the purity the lack of packaging that can be the cause of confusion. It does not confuse things by trying to present an all encompassing religious system or view, to do so would be to impose a set of beliefs on the individual. Yes you could say Thelema is the most self-centred path of all!

Thelema looks at the established order and says to hell with that nonsense! Set me free!

I've had a cup of tea, but I've still got this disturbing mental image of you dancing around dressed as a buttercup! 🙂

I'm an initiated Witch, I studied the craft for nearly 2 decades. I don't regret a bit of it, but I follow a new path now. I don't see it as seperate, I see it all as part of the same journey. I have danced naked with others, leapt over bonfires, scourged and been scourged. I've stood on a hilltop in driving rain summoning elemental forces, become the stag and the wolf. Magic is manyfold, there are many ways. Crowley did not restrict himself to one way and nor shall I.

93
Hamal

Interesting point, Michael, but I don't agree that it does. It's my understanding of Thelema that True Will is cosmic, and that it is expressed through the apparent diversity of phenomena. I think that this is clear from Crowley's Liber Aleph and other works such as his reworking of and commentary upon Legge's translation of the Tao Teh Ching, his commentary on Blavatsky's The Voice of the Silence, some of the essays in Little Essays Toward Truth, and other works. Individuality is transient, like waves across the surface of an ocean, flung up by deeper-lying currents.

It doesn't. Then again, at some point earlier in the thread you appeared to disown your original post.

From my memory of the court proceedings at the time, such a schedule was produced, though I was under the impression that the copyrights had been purchased, the transaction validated by the court proceedings, and thus under UK law all works by Crowley, published or unpublished, are within copyright until 2018, some beyond that.

You may be able to find the schedule by searching Peter Koenig's website, a link to which is given in an earlier post within this thread.

Failing to understand how any of the above relates to my initial post.

It was posted in a response to a fellow seeker to talk about something else.

So to repeat for the second time... I mentioned way back and had also been by another poster, in this thread, does anyone know the contents of the schedule/works from the court case.

I have posted some relevant links, earlier in an earlier post. One of the docs indicates that the OTO agreement covers ALL output - that includes books, paintings, drawings etc.

Apologies, must have over looked that when browsing the posts and Peter's site. Thought there was an actual list of the works rather than a mention, en masse.

Thanks both Michaels for your retrospective responses.

sent from my mobile.

Hm, an interesting series of deviations.  (There were also some definite signs of ‘hesitation’ and ‘repetition’ carried out earlier...)

A lot of the more interesting questions still remain unanswered, though – not only the one of prime importance as to whether Gerald Suster should be made one of the C.O.T.O.’s Gnostic Saints :o; but why they also list Equinox III.7 when they have never produced it nor show any signs of doing so;  why in the meantime they have failed to issue the so-called ‘Chinese Texts’ in any form apart from the Tao Te Ching, whilest these have not appeared since Motta’s “Equinox V.3” of 1980; why their next Equinox series is "Volume Four"; why The Holy Books of Thelema are no longer available except as rare books; why the compete Confessions and Magical Diaries have taken almost twenty-five years to come to fruition (that is assuming they come out this year; check their old Magical Links from the late ‘eighties/ early ‘nineties for premature announcements of their appearance); why the C.O.T.O. can’t use the IT skills of their membership & their dues productively to put everything into print (as opposed to unproductively, in hiring expensive lawyers) - “et cetera, et cetera, et cetera”, in the words of “The Pharoah”, Yul Brynner. 

But no – no one wishes to talk about those sorts of subjects, of course - least of all the ‘Caliphornian’ O.T.O. or their duly designated representatives….

Tea is a fine substitute for w(h)ine, incidentally, but it must be hot and steaming.  For further directions, listen to e.g. "Camembert Electrique", "The Flying Teapot", etc….

... For when you stroke your Gong, your middle Eye comes on…
N'Joy

Eventually, one comes to an assertion similar to the one that Shiva made, that "the A:.A:. is the Black Lodge".

I won't debate that, sir! You are entitled to your opinion of the neurosis. 🙂

Ya, and what about the Bodhisattva Vow? Surely, altruism actually exists?

But, if you look further, you may find that it is not the degree of altruism that is really the issue here, but the perception of a self.

And, in general, for everyone, enjoy your respective weekends.

[flash=400,200:1grvli3u] http://www.youtube.com/v/30KfPtHec4s [/flash:1grvli3u]

A little further down the rabbit hole...

[flash=200,200:1grvli3u] https://www.youtube.com/v/X8ILKFvPfRc [/flash:1grvli3u]

I am a big fan of UG, though I find it a touch nihilistic. To be honest, I far prefer Heidegger as it's more realistic account of the world.

Many thanks to Dr. K for coming online to write to us here, & also to Ptoner for starting a great discussion! The "hot" property that OTO has on the market is undoubtedly the Thoth tarot deck. This thread has brought some clarity, in the sense that the OTO has published (at their own expense) all of the relevant writing of AC online for free (I was not aware before that they did so). Recently I have been watching the 'Magical Egypt' series & noticed that in the credits the copyright on the Thoth deck is given to "USA Games", & it made me reflect on how often I see this phenomenal deck referenced. That deck is worth millions, so I can see why the OTO is focusing on this now.

Azi,
Will you, please, tell me in plain language, why the "A.'.A.'. is the Black Lodge"?  I follow what you are saying, but I'd like for you to "state the case" here for me.  If you'd be so kind, so as to indulge my request, I (and others here, I'm sure) would greatly appreciate it!

I am enjoying this thread, some nice tidbits here and there.

I'm not sure it's appropriate for this thread, but I wouldn't mind discussing it a little bit.

Reply #102 from michaelclarke18 on: September 06, 2013, 08:16:55 pm:
In that sense Thelema is retrograde, and rather backward looking. As it clearly puts mankind at the center; and I'm not sure that view really represents the world we currently we live in and current concerns.

Reply #105 from michaelclarke18 on: September 06, 2013, 09:08:26 pm:
BUT it ALL still relates to the ego! And still puts ''man'' at the center of things, ego or [not] - in my view, that's a weakness! What about trees, hedgehogs, ducks, bees etc Witchcraft is not so ego-centric in that sense.

Thelema may seem to put man at the centre – however the conceptual new paradigm of “Niaton” is placed at the centre of Liber Pennæ Prænumbra, in a sense being the ‘reflection’ of the egregore or group mind gestalt of our ‘future’ selves into the present time.  The matter specifically refers to the foreshadowing of the Maat (696) Current, which itself relates to the final Hé of Tetragrammaton and the Daughter corollary to Horus who will be raised to the eld of the All-Father, etc. (q.v.).  Then homo sapiens will develop (not evolve, the quantum change will be somewhat quicker I feel) into homo veritas providing that as long as 1% achieve the level of consciousness required, then the rest of humanity will be swept along by the so-called “Hundredth Monkey” phenomenon.

Reply #103 from Azidonis on: September 06, 2013, 08:22:52 pm:
... "Should he fail, by will or weakness, to make his self-annihilation absolute, he is none the less thrust forth into the Abyss; but instead of being received and reconstructed in the Third Order, as a Babe in the womb of our Lady BABALON, under the Night of Pan, to grow up to be Himself wholly and truly as He was not previously, he remains in the Abyss, secreting his elements round his Ego as if isolated from the Universe, and becomes what is called a "Black Brother"." - One Star in Sight

Yet... is it not homo-centric?

"I will interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my soul."

Kind of self-ish, innit?

All that is, of course, assuming a sense of self.

"The Ipsissimus has no relation as such with any Being: He has no will in any direction, and no Consciousness of any kind involving duality, for in Him all is accomplished; as it is written "beyond the Word and the Fool, yea, beyond the Word and the Fool". [...] He is the Master of the Law of Unsubstantiality (Anatta)."

You seem to have come to this party a bit late, Az – some of the people are already packing up and leaving!  But I see a new related thread has been started a new one up – gung ho!  I couldn’t quite see the relevance, or the point,  of your quotations (I will not follow this with ‘as usual’, though’!) here & there seems to be nothing you wrote which is new – that's probably just my perception though, eh?!

Reply #104 from Hamal on: September 06, 2013, 08:58:53 pm:
... Thelema encompasses the concept of non-human consciousnesses, that's not human centric.

“Says you” here, though, Hamal!

In my experiences there are three major pre-conceptions that put off the crowds that flock to modern witchcraft from exploring Aleister Crowley, the O.T.O and Thelema:

1.) Their perception of Crowley, which is still predominantly that he was an evil devil worshipper. Even those who suspect me might not always have been so wickedly focused worry that they will be led astray down some dark alley by his work.

The more wary – some might say timid – “Dion Fortune approach”, whereby one is unable to publicly recognise AC as the Master, or at any rate the Prophet (which is the more extreme/ effusive , do you think?!) despite one knowing well that this is the case.

... 2.) It's much more intellectually demanding on the whole than modern witchcraft/paganism leading the stupid or lazy to give up even if they start to attempt to process its material. Its also worth saying the manner in which Crowley wrote does not help, but some of his works are more accessible than others.

There also comes a point when Crowley’s writings are of a limited help, and then no help at all (see “goodbye yellow brick road” slant to "the Path" in the earlier thread from about a month ago, the exact reference escapes me for a moment...)

...3.) The perception that in high magic through 'commanding' spirits/forces we are behaving in an arrogant or unfriendly/bullying/wicked way.

Not quite sure what you mean by “high magic” – do you mean ‘selfless’, as in acting with a sense of agape for the common weal – healing your neighbour’s cow or helping them to get over grief or a bad cold, whatever?  Or ‘selfless’ as in helping them to advance to the KCHGA?

Yes, there is that too.  Didn’t Grady McMurtry originally flog the rights to them back in the ‘70s for $500, what was called by his detractors not his ‘thirty pieces of silver’ but, almost as damning, his ‘beer money?  The reference will be on Saint Peter’s site somewhere, I do not have the time at the moment to check the exact source.

NJ
yo

What? [woosh... as it flows right over my head!] 🙂

If I could reply as a fish or dolphin I would! If I could dissolve my own ego while simultaneously typing my reply I would!

Some people go to great lengths to play down Aleister Crowleys role in the modern witchcraft revival I find, as if he's that unfortunate relative no one discusses at the dinner table. Then you have the guys who like to read a bit of Crowley because it enhances their dark side credentials with their new Goth girlfriend. Wow I sound jaded! LOL

I will look that up.

Well I use the term "high magic" (a term I didn't coin nor find particularly helpful tbh but which is widely used in many books) to mean ceremonial magic involving summoning and commanding. More Wizard and less Witch as someone I know might say! LOL. I do not mean selfless which one might associate with some sort of "high" magic. And let me remind you it is their perception I am discussing here, not my own. Or rather my perception of their perceptions.

93
Hamal

Oh, the irony! Especially considering the monumental contributions he made to it.

Well I would try to put it “in whiter words”, Hamal, but as it was part of a side-avenue to the main thrust of this particular thread, I will abstain for the moment.  But I have mentioned the matter before, and will doubtless probably do so again…

Yes, that was a little unfair of me, H, I realised that as soon as I posted & particularly as you went on to say in the every next sentence “In my experience…”, but it was too late to retract and re-edit by that point & I thought it might just get passed over anyway without further comment.  The matter would apply to all of us who dare to express a personal, subjective opinion of whatever sort on the website.  Most of these times I suppose we should take it as read: i.e., this is my take/perception on the matter and not to be intended as an absolute, categorical statement!

It was in the "G'day" thread started by Zac on the Introductions board , but I'm sure I have seen the matter discussed tangentially elsewhere too.

Well at least your words are a bit more revelatory than the rather jejune explanation offered up by the originator of Chaos Magic:

No details are presented for the five of conjurations of high magic, nor can they be given… Magicians must rely on the momentum of their own work… to carry them into the domain of high magic, where they evolve their own tricks and empty-handed techniques for spontaneously liberating the chaotic creativity within.”

(Peter Carroll: “Liber KKK” – page 180 of the combined (Weiser) edition of Liber Null & Psychonaut)[/align:847z5p36]

To which I commented:

In view of all Chaos Magic’s prefatory build up, this is a bit coy to say the least. The situation is rather like having a gaily-coloured firework whose label advertises it as being some sort of serious almighty bliztzkrieg banger, at the moment of truth going phhuttt.  Meanwhile the business about tricks and empty-handed gestures seems to belong more to the province of prestidigitateurs, charlatans, mountebanks and “fakers” than genuine exponents of the lofty royal art of “high magic”.

(Norma N. Joy Conquest & Jack O. Lantern: from Chapter 3 (page 12) “Will & The Wisp – Thelema and the Ignis Fatuus of Chaos Magic Theory)[/align:847z5p36]

I’m not exactly sure what you (or your acquaintance) mean here but it sounds quite funny, I think I get the general idea & it is rather catchy in its way!  A bit like “more bangs for your buck”, I suppose...

Or even, your tendency to perceive your perception of their perceptions.  Or even, the experience/consciousness of the existence of your tendency to perceive…(&c, &c – see Eight Lectures on Yoga: No. 7, particularly Section 22 from 18-23.)

Indeed so.  (And I am quite sure that his dinner table manners themselves would have been impeccably beyond reproach - with the possible exception of allegedly relieving himself (defecating) upon his host’s living-room carpet shortly afterwards...)

Ny
Jo

I quite agree, ungrateful and rude I'd say!

93
Hamal