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RAW on Authority and Liberty

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David Lemieux
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An interesting excerpt from Wilson and Shea's The ILLUMINATUS! TRILOGY, Raven Books London,  (reprinted) 1998.   APPENDIX TETH Hagbard's Booklet;

 

Human society can be structured toward Authority or Liberty.  That is, a social configuration in which people act as superiors and inferiors or one where they act as equals.  Families, churches or clubs are either more authoritarian than libertarian or more libertarian than authoritarian.

The most pugnacious and and intolerant form of authority is The State which dares to assume an absolutism that The Church surrendered a long time ago.   Every form of authoritarianism is a mini "State," even if it has a membership of two.  The authoritarianism of one man is 'crime', of many men it is called 'The State'  

Aggression is simply another name for government. The terms 'invasion', 'aggression' and 'government' are interchangeable terms.  The essence of government is control , and the attempt to control.  He who attempts to control another is a governor, an aggressor, an invader..whether it be made by one man on another as in the common criminal or by one man upon all other men, as in an absolute monarch, or by all other men upon one man as in a democracy. 

This topic was modified 3 months ago 3 times by David Lemieux

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Well, even RAW could write BS, or was it Shea? Or is it just the fictional Hagbard talking there?


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Well, even RAW could write BS, or was it Shea? Or is it just the fictional Hagbard talking there?

You used the term sh-t which alludes to the anal- territorial emo brain-circuit 2.  That's fitting because the OP after all, is about domination and submission and status spatial coordination.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Well, even RAW could write BS, or was it Shea? Or is it just the fictional Hagbard talking there?

Double post apology.  What is in R.A.W.'s essay it that is so offensive to you?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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ignant666
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

[I]s it just the fictional Hagbard talking there?

To answer your question, since david can't be bothered in his two replies thusfar to your post: Bingo, give the man a cigar or spliff as the case may be! You are correct sir!

These are indeed quotations presented as being excerpts from the character Hagbard Celine's "booklet", Never Whistle While You're Pissing. In a novel that RAW was indeed author of some of. But ain't no "RAW essay" under dicussion here

This character is clearly to a large extent a parody figure based on Ayn Rand's "Ragnar Danneskjold" (in Atlas Shrugged (burlesqued as Telemachus Sneezed in Illuminatus!)).

He is deliberately written as a stiff and wooden character (like all Rand characters), and is prone to making extraneous speeches expounding Randian doctrine (like all Rand characters). He, and his "booklet" that david quotes, are being used by the authors to mock and parody Randian "libertarians".

Assuming that "Hagbard's" views were those of Robert Shea, or his co-author RAW, is kind of silly, and obviously wrong.


   
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David Lemieux
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I genuinely thought Hagbard was a mouthpiece for RAW's sympathies.   RAW certainly had a lot of criticisms of governments.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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ignant666
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

RAW certainly had a lot of criticisms of governments.

So do i, but that doesn't mean i agree with Ayn Rand. Also note that there are characters with many different critiques of government, and critiques of claims about reality, including a hippie Left anarchist, Simon Moon.

And one more time: there were two (2) authors, and it is not easy to know what parts each wrote, see this interview :

SFR: Could you give us some idea of how Illuminatus! was written? Who wrote which parts?

Wilson: Most of it was communicated to us telepathically by a canine Intelligence, vast, cool and unsympathetic, from Sirius, the Dog Star. I was aware of being a channel for interstellar sarcasm, but Shea thought he was inventing his part of the transmission. In general, the melodrama is Shea and the satire is me; but some of the satire is definitely him and some of the melodrama is certainly me. "When Atlantis Ruled the Earth" is 99% Shea. The sections about Simon Moon, Robert Putney Drake and Markoff Chaney are 99% me. Everything else is impossible to untangle. [....]

SFR: Would I be right in saying you probably lean more toward the libertarian from of anarchism than the classic leftist variety?

Wilson: My trajectory is perpendicular to the left-right axis of terrestrial politics.

I put some of my deepest idealism into both the Left anarchism of Simon Moon and the Right anarchism of Hagbard Celine in Illuminatus!, but I am detached from both on another level.

Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20060219191930/http://www.rawilsonfans.com/articles/SFR17.htm


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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I have never read "Atlas Shrugged" (should I?) but the allusions seem pretty obvious. I was talking about those many "is'ms" (what things ARE) in the part quoted which do not sound very RAW-ish. Also it IS utter BS to say "The terms 'invasion', 'aggression' and 'government' are interchangeable terms." because they are not.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

I have never read "Atlas Shrugged"

I have, but only "sort of." My boss, the President and CEO of the college where I worked was a Rand adherent. This was his philosophy and he applied it in practical terms. He was materially successful, came from inherited wealth, and he decried spiritual concepts. A real materialist. Probably a de facto member of The Black Lodge.

So I thoughr I better "know thine enemy" and I picked up Atlas ...

This is one of those authors/topics that held absolutely no interest for me whatsover. I read a good portion, and then threw the book away. Absolutely nothing in that book "stuck" or made the least impression on me - except that it was BS.

Of course, there must be something wrong with me.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

(should I?)

You know the answer to this. It starts with "Do what thou ..." in bible-speak, which I do not appreciate, thus fulfilling the prophecy that There must be something wrong ...

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

. Also it IS utter BS to say "The terms 'invasion', 'aggression' and 'government' are interchangeable terms." because they are not.

You weren't there.  You accept that once there was no government anywhere?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You weren't there.  You accept that once there was no government anywhere?

No need to accept that or even think about that. I was talking about "interchangable". That word has a clear meaning I think. And since the "1944 government of the Normandy" or "I don't like the passive-invasive undertone in your answer" or "which planets aggress which days of the week" makes no real sense, I think that "RAW" (non-)quote is BS. Of course I know what the author means. But catchy words or phrases do seldomly help or clear things up


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You accept that once there was no government anywhere?

There still is. No gov in sight or on-site ...

[Chorus]
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert you can't remember your name
cause there ain't no gov to give you no pain

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

You weren't there.  You accept that once there was no government anywhere?

No need to accept that or even think about that. I was talking about "interchangable". That word has a clear meaning I think. And since the "1944 government of the Normandy" or "I don't like the passive-invasive undertone in your answer" or "which planets aggress which days of the week" makes no real sense, I think that "RAW" (non-)quote is BS. Of course I know what the author means. But catchy words or phrases do seldomly help or clear things up

 

Like, what? 

Ok think about the earliest societies, there would've been bountiful resources of nature, farming, hunting animals...and some minority bossed others about in terms of division of labour and specialization especially when bronze-making was invented.  Government yeah?  Aggression, someone bossing the others about on who does which tasks and eventually it got worse when humans started behaving like bees or ants with a Queen-hive structure.  Servility, yeah?  Dissent crushed, yeah?      

 

@ignant666

 

Right anarchism?  Is that an oxymoron? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Ok think about the earliest societies, there would've been bountiful resources of nature, farming, hunting animals...and some minority bossed others about in terms of division of labour and specialization especially when bronze-making was invented.  Government yeah?  Aggression, someone bossing the others about on who does which tasks and eventually it got worse when humans started behaving like bees or ants with a Queen-hive structure.  Servility, yeah?  Dissent crushed, yeah?

As I said, I know what Hagbard meant with his words - though I don't think it happened the way you simplify it here. Some "boss" suddenly appeared out of thin air? Maybe we can identify that first "boss" and blame him for everything?

I repeat I simply do not agree with the "interchangable" part. It seems to me you are not talking about government, but about capitalism.


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
As I said, I know what Hagbard meant with his words - though I don't think it happened the way you simplify it here. Some "boss" suddenly appeared out of thin air? Maybe we can identify that first "boss" and blame him for everything?

I repeat I simply do not agree with the "interchangable" part. It seems to me you are not talking about government, but about capitalism.

Do you know what capitalism is?  What do you think it is?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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katrice
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

 

Right anarchism?  Is that an oxymoron? 

The National Anarchists are basically alt right. 

And I've met my share of "libertarian anarchists" who are basically MAGA Republicans cosplaying as anarchists.

Please note that this still supports your statement here.


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Do you know what capitalism is?  What do you think it is?

Surely I do and surely I do know the meaning of "interchangable". Let this thread - which is only about "RAW on Aothority and Liberty" in the headline - die peacefully.


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Do you know what capitalism is?  What do you think it is?

Surely I do and surely I do know the meaning of "interchangable". Let this thread - which is only about "RAW on Aothority and Liberty" in the headline - die peacefully.

Your definition of capitalism then remains your secret....for some reason. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Maybe we can identify that first "boss" and blame him for everything?

I don't know about the first boss in history. Probably Eve, wo told Adam to eat the apple. But in my life, the boss would be my mother, as it is for almost everyone (with a few exceptions). Other considerations, such as speculation on other peoples' labor hierarchies, don't really matter.

 


   
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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Your definition of capitalism then remains your secret....for some reason. 

Uh oh, mysterious, mysterious. Look, I am on holidays and simply have better things to do. I took a few moments to comment on RAW, mainly because he means something to me, in contrast to capitalism which I despise, although being aware that there are so many facettes of it where even I play a part, and moreover it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or this site - or, as some seem to think, everything has to do with AC in the end.


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff
 or, as some seem to think, everything has to do with AC in the en
You have a good holiday mein freund.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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David Lemieux
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@the_real_simon_iff 

Where's your holiday at?

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the_real_simon_iff
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux
 
Where's your holiday at?

I'm on Skiathos, Greece, with my daughter. Doing that for years. Amazing island.


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

capitalism which I despise

Say, isn't that the system that used to go by the name of serfdom? Or was it feudalism? I suppose the name doesn't matter, the essential part is that somebody (Baron, Duke, King, Bishop, Earl, Count, etc), a landholder, usually derived from inherited wealth, with storage bins and knights, gets the lower class to do the work of building, farming, tending animalia.

As I understand it, the Baron usually makes a ton of money, while the workers barely get by.

 


   
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David Lemieux
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Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

capitalism which I despise

Say, isn't that the system that used to go by the name of serfdom? Or was it feudalism? I suppose the name doesn't matter, the essential part is that somebody (Baron, Duke, King, Bishop, Earl, Count, etc), a landholder, usually derived from inherited wealth, with storage bins and knights, gets the lower class to do the work of building, farming, tending animalia.

As I understand it, the Baron usually makes a ton of money, while the workers barely get by.

 

Then (UK ahead of everyone else) canal building and The evil Enclosures Act i.e. landowners telling peasants that they can now F off and die for all they care.   They migrated to urban centres.  Shameful British history.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


   
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Shiva
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Posted by: @david-dom-lemieux

Then (UK ahead of everyone else) canal building and The evil Enclosures Act i.e. landowners telling peasants that they can now F off and die for all they care.   They migrated to urban centres.  Shameful British history.

I suspect the builder-workers of The Great wall of China, administered by an Emperor whose last name was Chin (you see where the country's name came from?) were neither well paid nor offered retirement benefits.

Yes, both Great Brit and Great USA, and other Greats, stand guilty of crimes against humanity for fun and profit. Although no one in my family lineage (that I know of), being of the lower, paid class, and not of the upper inherited wealth class, gave smallpox blankets to Indians or owned slaves. But, surely, somewhere up (down?) the genetic lineage highways, one or two of our (anyone's) ancestors must be guilty of something like "bad," and so we inherit the karma and must face the results of these issues in our modern times.

Yeah, in addition to our own individual karma, that gets us into and out of trouble on a regular basis, is a concept that most of us can grasp (whether we believe it or not), but then there are these expanded karmatic concepts, like in family karma, racial karma, national karma, tribal karma, etcetera karma. This is not even a metaphysical notion - we live in a world that was shaped by our parents, and their cohorts. based on what their parents did ... reaching backward into time.

The entire scope is so long-winded and complex, that nobody can solve it. Gradually, we begin to see that everybody's carrying a debt (sinners) and we are, in fact, in Hell (the densest of the planes). Which is why there are so many restrictions.


   
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