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The 8-Circuit Model of Consciousness - The Eight Basic Winner/Loser Scripts  

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dom
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25/10/2020 12:22 pm  

Although R.A.Wilson worked with the Leary 8 brain-circuit model (and he considered it to be the crux of his writings and work)  he/they also came up with the winner/loser script for each circuit as follows;

 

The 8-Circuit Model of Consciousness
- The Eight Basic Winner/Loser Scripts

The Eight Basic Winner Scripts

 

I.      The biosurvival winner:

        "I will live forever, or die trying."

II.     The emotional-territorial winner:

        "I am free; you are free; we can have our separate trips or we can
        have the same trip."

III.    The semantic winner:

        "I am learning more about everything, including how to learn    
        more."

IV.     The sociosexual winner:

        "Love, and do what thou wilt."
        (Anon. of Ibid)

V.      The neurosomatic winner:

        "How I feel depends on my neurological knowhow."

VI.     The metaprogramming winner:

        "I make my own coincidences, synchronities, luck, and Destiny."

VII.    The neurogenetic winner:

        "Future evolution depends on my decisions now."

VIII.   The neuroatomic winner:

        "In the province of the mind, what is believed true is true, or
        becomes true within limits to be learned by experience and
        experiment." (Dr. John Lilly)

The Eight Basic Loser Scripts

 

I.      The biosurvival loser:

        "I don't know how to defend myself."

II.     The emotional-territorial loser:

        "They all intimidate me."

III.    The semantic loser:

        "I can't solve my problems."

IV.     The sociosexual loser:

        "Everything I like is illegal, immoral, or fattening."

V.      The neurosomatic loser:

        "I can't help the way I feel."

VI.     The metaprogramming loser:

        "Why do I have such lousy luck?"

VII.    The neurogenetic loser:

        "Evolution is blind and impersonal."

VIII.   The neuroatomic loser:

        "I'm not psychic, and I doubt that anyone is."

Links on the 8 brain-circuit model as follows;

 

~   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness

 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


Shiva
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25/10/2020 6:35 pm  

Oh, my ...


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Jamie J Barter
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26/10/2020 7:32 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Oh, my ...

- Goodness? - Sainted aunt?? Is this a fair indication of your swooning appreciation, of which no further words are suitable?  Or is there anything amongst the 16 you (=you, Shiva) may not wholeheartedly agree with (from which perchance we (= anyone) could then commence to start a debate discussion)?

Bigging up the Wilson (#2),

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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26/10/2020 7:49 pm  

Oh, my Aunt Fanny ...


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Jamie J Barter
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26/10/2020 8:11 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Fanny ...

Funny, but I originally thought of Fanny when I was going to add it following "My sainted Aunt..." But then considered possibly Harriet, and as I couldn't decide between them both in the end I chose to leave her actual name blank.  Fascinating stuff, eh?

Woo-wooishly yours,

N Joy


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ignant666
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26/10/2020 8:24 pm  

Helping out here with the trans-Atlantic translating, when English people say "fanny" they mean, the, um, front bottom, not the back bottom, as an American would.

Not that i am saying anyone's aunt is named Aunt Vagina or Aunt Anus or anything.

Did you ever hear the joke about the social worker in the Deep South who comes back a year later to see if anyone read the public-health pamphlets she had distributed the year before?

"Whah, ah surely did! Meet mah twin daughters, Syphilis and Gonhorrea!" [pronounced "Si-FI-luss", and "GON-Oria" [rhymes with "Honoria"]] Oh, no, now i have offended Djedi's family honor.

One of my late old mom's favorite jokes along with the one about the kindly Roman centurion removing the nails from Jesus.


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christibrany
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26/10/2020 8:32 pm  

I like Colin Wilsons novels.

i am reading Ritual in the Dark.

 

I am sure it has a different name in British. Such a difficult language . lol


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ignant666
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26/10/2020 9:01 pm  

The Mind Parasites is (by far) the best thing he did: well-done Lovecraftian psychological horror with archaeology (very HPL), and embodies all his thoughts or rather his one thought. Which is not a bad one, but some folks have as many as two ideas. Or even more.

Probably the best (only?) post-HPL book making use of Lovecraft mythos i ever read (and i very much include Derleth here). Far less tedious than Colin Wilson's normal work, and actually rather clever. I'd say a must.


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Jamie J Barter
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26/10/2020 9:41 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

I like Colin Wilsons novels.

Bong! Attention: Deviation alert!  You are referring to Wilson #1 here - Wrong thread/Wilson.

Proceed straightaway to jail without stopping or collecting any $200 on the way round.

Posted by: @ignant666

The Mind Parasites ...

Yes, I'm also in agreement with your evaluation of Wilson #1's achievement here.

Very Offtopickally yours!

N Joy


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ignant666
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26/10/2020 9:59 pm  

Oh jeez Jamie, you are right but with david's Twin Wilsons obsession we can any of us get them mixed.


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dom
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26/10/2020 11:21 pm  

Colin Wilson's The Outsider (which apparently established him as a 'boy genius') is , ironically enough (as it is obsessed with Sartre) very nauseating.......geddit?

 

Is anyone aware of the apparent correlation between the 8 chess pieces and the 8 brain circuits?   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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26/10/2020 11:40 pm  
Posted by: @dom

Colin Wilson's The Outsider (which apparently established him as a 'boy genius') is , ironically enough (as it is obsessed with Sartre) very nauseating.......geddit?

Yes - Pass me the sick bucket.  (Tho' you approve of this/ don't approve of his "magnum opus"?)

Posted by: @dom

Is anyone aware of the apparent correlation between the 8 chess pieces and the 8 brain circuits? 

No - Between what 8 chess pieces? I count six: Castle (or Rook); Knight; Bishop; King; Queen; and lastly, a load of Pawns.  What correlation (takes place)?

"Every number is infinite; there is no difference"?

N Joy


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dom
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27/10/2020 12:14 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

 

No - Between what 8 chess pieces? I count six: Castle (or Rook); Knight; Bishop; King; Queen; and lastly, a load of Pawns.  What correlation (takes place)?

"Every number is infinite; there is no difference"?

N Joy

Castle (or Rook); Knight; Bishop; King;

the Castle can only fly back or forth like the first circuit brain which developed in some prehistoric oceanic era.   The primate brain spawned from the first pre historic land lubbers who flexed up to dominate or shrunk in submission (the Rook jumps up).   The Bishop (reason)  moves skew wise only and the King represents the social/sexual Parent brain.  There is also a periodicity regarding the remaining four pieces in that they represent the next four circuits  i.e  (the other) Castle (or Rook); Knight; Bishop; Queen. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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ignant666
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27/10/2020 12:25 am  

Have you been taking strange drugs, david?

JB: He means 2 rooks, 2 knights, 2 bishops, 1 queen, 1 king = 8.

The pawns don't get to be Leary circuit levels because that would make 16, so we ignore the pawns.

And we ignore the fact that there are not 8 distinct things, but rather 2 each of three things, and one each of two things, because otherwise it would not fit.

Another thing we ignore is that there are not in fact eight things, (or 16 things if we count those poor prole pawns class-ist david wants us to ignore), but rather two sets of 16 things, for 32 things total

Then we ask david to please share his drugs. And tell him to note how many rows there are in the tables in 777. [cue spooky music]


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dom
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27/10/2020 12:51 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

Have you been taking strange drugs, david?

JB: He means 2 rooks, 2 knights, 2 bishops, 1 queen, 1 king = 8.

The pawns don't get to be Leary circuit levels because that would make 16, so we ignore the pawns.

And we ignore the fact that there are not 8 distinct things, but rather 2 each of three things, and one each of two things, because otherwise it would not fit.

Another thing we ignore is that there are not in fact eight things, (or 16 things if we count those poor prole pawns class-ist david wants us to ignore), but rather two sets of 16 things, for 32 things total

Then we ask david to please share his drugs. And tell him to note how many rows there are in the tables in 777. [cue spooky music]

As I understand it the pawns are the many "Gurdjieffian" ego-states (for anyone interested).   It's a game (pun unintended).

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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27/10/2020 1:02 am  
Posted by: @dom

As I understand it the pawns are the many "Gurdjieffian" ego-states

What - eight, or sixteen?

Where on earth does this then fit in with your original schema (if I can so dignify it by such a term)? 

Posted by: @dom

(for anyone interested).

!!??

Posted by: @dom

It's a game (pun unintended).

Pun went unnoticed, but then I'm not sharing your drugs...

N Joy


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ignant666
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27/10/2020 1:42 am  

Not 16, Jamie, 32.

Ebony and ivory

Live together in perfect harmony

Side by side on my [chess]board

Oh Lord, why don't we?

Actually my set is white v. red. Will i be visited by Black Pawns Matter?

This is one of the silliest topics david has ever brought up. which is a more competitive title than most in world sport.


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dom
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27/10/2020 8:23 am  

@jamiejbarter and ignant666

 

Who plays chess? One individual with 8 brains and their opponent who is also an individual with 8 brains.  Glad I could clear up the confusion for you both. 

 

I listened to an interview where R.A.Wilson attributed the days of the week to each circuit (well, not the 8th of course).  I'd say the 7 chakras and their attributes align pretty well also but I appear to be pissing in the wind here.    

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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27/10/2020 6:42 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I'd say the 7 chakras and their attributes align pretty well also but I appear to be pissing in the wind here. 

This, specifically and particularly, blew by in the wind  a year or three ago. I, personally and in solo mode, agree that the circuits match the spheres (the sephira), but the upper circuits do not line up exactly with the chakra comparison. But they are close enough to not need the hairs and the splitter. The immediate problem actually runs deeper.

I do not know what this thread is about.

Oh, okay, I went on a short expedition and read the OP.

Posted by: @dom

"I don't know how to defend myself."

I recognize this one. I wrote about it in a book. I recounted my helplessness in a Ch 3 situation, and the rest of the book tells how "Karate Came to America" (and I was right there when it did).

Otherwise, I saw a list of the circuits, each broken in two for analysis and argument. 

Posted by: @dom
 

Is anyone aware of the apparent correlation between the 8 chess pieces and the 8 brain circuits? 

Yes, the correlation is apparent. The attributions were assigned, by me, in 1966 or so. The cornerstone of correlation is the Rook, known by the simple folk as a "Castle." Label it Tif-a-ret, and move on from there.

Posted by: @dom

an interview where R.A.Wilson attributed the days of the week to each circuit

This is very exciting.

 


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dom
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28/10/2020 12:11 am  

@Shiva

 

The chakras as Circuits I get but the Solar Chakra as Circuit 3 I'm not getting.  The throat Chakra is about balance and yes that aligns to the 5th circuit and the psychical ESP Ajna certainly correlates nicely with the 6th Circuit.

Yes R.A.Wilson recommended karate for a problematic Circuit 1 mending process if I'M not mistaken.   The essay about Chess is in one of R.A.Wilson's books.  It's done as a put-on whereby advanced Aliens introduce chess to earthlings as subtle neurological education.  

 

Days of thre week correlations?   If they are planetary-based maybe.   How is Monday linked to Circuit 1?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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28/10/2020 1:40 am  
Posted by: @dom

but the Solar Chakra as Circuit 3 I'm not getting.

Solar Plexus = the lower mind = limbic brain = Hod = 3rd circus. After that, higher up, you're going astray.

4th circus = Netzach (cultural crap) = the "other aspect" of the Solar Plexus..

5th circus = Tiph (harmony) = heart.

6th circus = Geburah (metaprogramming is "practical" magic) = throat.

7th circus = Chesed = all 3 head centers are seen as, and are visible as, the "head center."

8th circus = Binah and up. The buck ends at Chesed; the woo begins at Binah.

Posted by: @dom

Yes R.A.Wilson recommended karate for a problematic Circuit 1 mending process if I'M not mistaken. 

If you are mistaken, then I will make that recommendation ... as I always have.

Posted by: @dom

How is Monday linked to Circuit 1?

In this case, I don't care. I can no longer differentiate one day-name from another. I guess they have all fallen into circuit 8, or the Qliphoth parlor.

 


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dom
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28/10/2020 7:41 pm  

@ Shiva I'm not sure about your correlations there.

 

Karate.  I know a bit of karate.  Some guy in school used to threaten me whilst grabbing my shirt collar and then he'd finish his rambling threats with a knee in my groin.  This happened a couple of times until I swatted back up on my karate.  If you think someone is about to knee you in the groin with their right knee then lift your right knee up.    I did it the next time he messed with me, his knee hit my knee but i didn't feel any pain really but he was writhing around on the floor in agony holding his knee.   It was the last time he threatened me.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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29/10/2020 9:18 am  
Posted by: @dom

It was the last time he threatened me.  

Okay, forget the chakra-circuit doodads; I think I sent you a Master Codex chapter where all that is laid out in kindergaten fashion. If not, just ask. But I will trade stories with you.

I was facing the National Karate Champion (5 years - he defeated all comers, until sensei said, "No more." (This is an honor and prep for the next grade - some people get upset). He was refining his sweeping motions, which were NOT on the class agenda. Every time I stepped in with what we were supposed to be doing, I would find my butt on the floor. This guy, a Japanese person by ancestry, was perhaps the smoothest, faster guy around (in the competion, not the teachers).

So I said, "James, that's really good, but can we knock it off now?" He ignored me and continued to sweep my foot and put my butt on the hardwood floor. I begged again.

He dumped me on the next punch, and "The Change" rose up within me. This was no longer "practice," it was a personal test. The next punch was not ready to stop just short of the "middle" (solar p). It was the real deak, Ki and all that stuff.

The National champion dumped me on my butt, but then he stopped that and returned what we were supposed to be doing. Only a short bit, because class was ending. No more butt-bangs. I had no more chance of handing this fellow, James Yabe, a seventh-degree the last time I heard (16 years ago) than a canine locked inside a steel kennel. If it stopped there, the story wouldn't be worth telling.

First, I see (link below) he's eighth degree now. This essentially means he is a complete master of wu-wei in action. Actually, I couldn't tell the difference from wu-wei when he was first degree and my belt was only brown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Yabe

When you sweep a person, you must simultaneously deflect the incoming punch with a spiral motion of your hand, which in hard style is tight & pointy like a sword. But James had a soft floating style, like a cobra, and his fingers were loose and slightly open.

When I saw him a week later (not in class), the whiteness of the splint, bandage and tape on his right little finger drew immediate attention to all I needed to know. You see, his little finger had missed the precise deflection and had entered the sleeve of my gi (uniform).

You're looking at that little finger, properly tucked in, right here ...

MAMa 2011 14 Cov

 


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Tiger
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29/10/2020 11:27 am  

sweep counters

https://youtu.be/WmlTkAfvtSk

https://youtu.be/jd0ikIEqYHw


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Jamie J Barter
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29/10/2020 6:11 pm  

sweep in good form

https://youtu.be/Xn-eQDWm6U4

N Joy


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dom
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30/10/2020 12:46 pm  

@shiva

 

I see he hurt his finger, ouch!  Sweeping as in leg sweeping the opponent's legs yes.

I would ask you about real world situation examples where you defended yourself like the one in your bio where the woman threw a punch at you and you grabbed her fist was it?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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30/10/2020 9:16 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I would ask you about real world situation examples

You have cited the breaking point twixt me and the High and Holy (Her Holiness) Grand Master ... when she decided to whack me in the head line a cartoon Zen Master. This encounter was not Karate or martial arts, although I was the Order's Karate Instructor. It was simply grasping the wrist of a lady who didn't know martial from Shinola.

The only other episode worth reporting was also a watershed moment. The transition into wu-wei took place. A change took place. Slow motion (time slows down). I spared his life a the final moment, or at least some teeth. Martial arts techniques work sometimes. Sometimes they don't. But when the wu-wei kicks in, anything will work because it's done without effort. This. of course. is the goal, in Budo as well as any other Path, including Thelema. Sez so in the Scriptures, but is not emphasized a lot.

The techniques are brought to "technically perfect" at the 3rd degree. The 4th adds control of Ki. The Master of wu-wei is the 8th. Breaking the little finger of an 8th is like chipping the nose off an AEgyptian statue. It makes its mark, but hardly wins any sort of competition.

I have a video of two champs in kumite (competition). The fellows merely walked around, making a gesture here and there. The two fellows had both defeated all challengers and now they faced each other. Each one knew all about wu-wei and his opponent's style. Nobody landed a punch. For the first (and still last) time, the World Championship that year went to two people.

If you want self-defense, you go to the Karate school, regularly, and you don't stop. If you stop, your skill and speed will slow down. If you want control of the situation (any sit), you hang in there in any martial art for, say, ~20 years, and the wu ("not") will become the wei-way.

To swing back, right on topic, look at the first circuit: "Move forward toward nourishment; back away from danger." The "natural" reaction to force is to back away. In martial arts, one learns to step in toward the force. Once this becomes "the new natural," the first circuit has obviously been reversed. The wu-wei stuff (Los 8=3 would call it the woo-way), is demonstrated in its full capacity at the eighth dan (8th degree black belt). This would make Los a Master of Wu-Wei ... if his 8=3 was real.

I shall not continue to be found revealing the secrets of Applied Geburah, but will simply donate the doc where this has already been covered. Here is anybody's copy, right out of The Master Codex, which has pictures for undeveloped minds, if you or they want further and final authorization of what's going on here ...

.

Basic martial arts for basic self-defense and a sense of control over the 1st circuit is found in Karate. The other arts (Judo, Aikido, Kyudo, Kendo, Iaido, etcdo) are simply not efficient at ground-street-battlefield level (Malkuth, where it can hurt), but they produce more buds and flowers at the higher levels.

Karate can become effective in self-defense after 6 months. This is the breaking point for most students. If they pass 6 months of regular training, they have a chance at going the full distance Many more than half crap out at, or just before, 6 months.

Note "do" is Japanese for "Way" and it is the equivalent of the Chinese word "Tao."

I'm going to go out on alimb here and offer another free book. I think it's only 32 pages, but it falls in the Rare-Collector_Item category. It include everything (history, philosophy, intrigue, politics, fights) but you will get to see how the street-fighting fits in, and how well it did ... and didn't.

Do you want to move on to the 2nd circuit? The territorial aspect is strong in the martial arts, but it's found in every other aspect of study and life that it has a life of its own.

 


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christibrany
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30/10/2020 10:49 pm  

@jamiejbarter I still kind of like your interruptions.

You seem like a DALEK 


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Shiva
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31/10/2020 2:15 am  
Posted by: @christibrany

You seem like a DALEK

Please define DALEK.

 


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dom
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01/11/2020 7:29 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

 

Basic martial arts for basic self-defense and a sense of control over the 1st circuit is found in Karate. The other arts (Judo, Aikido, Kyudo, Kendo, Iaido, etcdo) are simply not efficient at ground-street-battlefield level (Malkuth, where it can hurt), but they produce more buds and flowers at the higher levels.

Karate can become effective in self-defense after 6 months. This is the breaking point for most students. If they pass 6 months of regular training, they have a chance at going the full distance Many more than half crap out at, or just before, 6 months.

Note "do" is Japanese for "Way" and it is the equivalent of the Chinese word "Tao."

I'm going to go out on alimb here and offer another free book. I think it's only 32 pages, but it falls in the Rare-Collector_Item category. It include everything (history, philosophy, intrigue, politics, fights) but you will get to see how the street-fighting fits in, and how well it did ... and didn't.

Do you want to move on to the 2nd circuit? The territorial aspect is strong in the martial arts, but it's found in every other aspect of study and life that it has a life of its own.

 

Karate translates as 'emptiness ..hand'?  In other words it's all part of any Eastern Way.  In terms of circuit 2 it doesn't translate as 'ok now i can go out and beat up anyone who thinks he's harder than me'.  Is that what you meant by moving onto circuit 2?  I'll be honest if you have nailed the circuit 1 hurdle you still have the 'pain in the ass' circuit 2 circuit messing you around.   Karate is useless for that?   

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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02/11/2020 1:55 am  
Posted by: @dom

Karate translates as 'emptiness ..hand'?

Funakoshi (from Okinawa) went to Japan and introduced it under the words "Empty Hand." which described facing a guy(s) with weapons, but nothing's in your hands.

Unfortunately, the original translation was "China Hand," as it was taught to the Okinawan peasants by Chinese pirates ... who got it from ShaoLin (the Shaolin Monastery - still active today - 8,000 students).

This (Kara = Empty) so enraged the Okinawan guys that they sent assassins after him.

Posted by: @dom

beat up anyone who thinks he's harder than me'.  Is that what you meant by moving onto circuit 2?

More or Less. Circuit two (Territorial) determines who's in charge. In the early stages, up to around Level 4 (black belt #4), egos are incvolved and antagonisms can arise. When the antagonism arose between two 5th degrees (the highest rank available in 1962), the entire course of Karate in the USA re-arranged itself. This is all detailed in the book I posted.

This is the kind of crap the senseis have to wring out of the students. It is very prevalent. The Tao (Do) has no room for competition. The full title of the art is Karatedo, which a lot of people leave off (the do) or forget it.

Posted by: @dom

 Karate is useless for that?

I'm not able to decipher the context of the ?   All the circuits are involved, but they don't start 'til Black Belt #1. Up 'til then (3 yrs min), it's all the Probationary Path. In the Black Belt line, all the circuits line up just fine. 1st circuit = basic physical control. Then 2=2, 3=3, etc ... up to 8=8.

This, of course, depends on the Examiners and the Rules for Examination. I have stated the equivalencies (here and in my first post doc, above), and they hold true for the real senseis and the real curriculum. Some styles are pitifully full of ego fulfillment, and their grades are worthlessly inadequate.

Posted by: @dom

I'll be honest if you have nailed the circuit 1 hurdle you still have the 'pain in the ass' circuit 2 circuit messing you around. 

Upon re-assessment, you don't have to be "honest," because it's a known fact that ANY first circuit control is messed around by the next 3 circuits (2,3 & 4). This is why God and the Japanese Karate Association (JKA) created more numbers of circuits and black belts.

 


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christibrany
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02/11/2020 4:36 pm  

@shiva

 

On occasion James reminds me of this creature of robotic persuasion (a suit?) from Dr Who:

James ie Jamie does not seem like a particularly villainous person so I would need to delve into my subconscious as to 'why'.  Perhaps instead of EXTERMINATE I can see him saying in that voice they have, other more school teacherly interruptions. 

image

 


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ignant666
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02/11/2020 4:46 pm  

I used to have this very tiny (5' 1") redheaded girlfriend in the late '70s who liked to be a Dalek, and would shuffle around, waving her rigid arms up and down, going "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!". She looked like a murderous kewpie doll. One of two ex-GFs married to ex-drummers; never leave your significant other alone with a drummer.

I do not think Jamie is very like a Dalek.


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Shiva
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02/11/2020 6:46 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I do not think Jamie is very like a Dalek.

But Chris is a drummer. Beware!

 


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dom
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03/11/2020 11:03 pm  
 
Posted by: @shiva

This (Kara = Empty) so enraged the Okinawan guys that they sent assassins after him.

How petty was that?

 
Posted by: @shiva

More or Less. Circuit two (Territorial) determines who's in charge. In the early stages, up to around Level 4 (black belt #4), egos are incvolved and antagonisms can arise. When the antagonism arose between two 5th degrees (the highest rank available in 1962), the entire course of Karate in the USA re-arranged itself. This is all detailed in the book I posted.

This is the kind of crap the senseis have to wring out of the students. It is very prevalent. The Tao (Do) has no room for competition. The full title of the art is Karatedo, which a lot of people leave off (the do) or forget it..........................

I'm not able to decipher the context of the ?   All the circuits are involved, but they don't start 'til Black Belt #1. Up 'til then (3 yrs min), it's all the Probationary Path. In the Black Belt line, all the circuits line up just fine. 1st circuit = basic physical control. Then 2=2, 3=3, etc ... up to 8=8.

Are you saying that if an unbalanced person who is abusing his Karate knowledge (as his ego expands) will become balanced out if he goes on to become a black belt?  I never asked you but what belt are you?

 

Have you hard of the American movie actor Steven Segal?  Is this a good example of someone whose karate development has expanded his ego?

 

Another point, Bruce Lee was some sort of fitness fanatic, he had abs of steel.   I'd say that fat people can become black belts in martial arts.

 

Have you ever known any Ninjitsu practitioners?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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03/11/2020 11:47 pm  

I just wanted to chip in a few things that are perhaps not clear. I don't study Karate myself but take an interest and have been involved in Japanese martial arts for a while. This guy has a different take on the story, although I'm unsure how accurate he is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSLAcC5X8iE&ab_channel=JesseEnkamp

It seems that Funakoshi did upset the Okinawan karate people, but for essentially gutting Okinawan karate for consumption by the Japanese, who wanted something you could learn in large groups as a counter to the rising popularity of boxing, which was at that point just encroaching into Japan. 

As for black belts being perfectly balanced, people say that but I'd dispute it. I'd say that to get to black belt (1st) you need very good self control, but I've known 2nd and 3rd dan Aikido people with egos the size of a house. For example when I passed my 2nd kyu (brown belt) a 2nd dan followed up the next ten minutes throwing me about the mat in a display of ego that annoyed the other yudansha to the extent that some of them apologized to me for his behaviour. So no, awarding a belt doesn't necessarily equate to a better person.

 

 


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Shiva
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04/11/2020 1:20 am  
Posted by: @dom

will become balanced out if he goes on to become a black belt? 

If you read the book I posted, you will find the story where Nishiyama beats the crap out of a newly-minted black belt. He was possibly the most ego-centered prick in the dojo. Afrer cleaning his clock, nish said, "Now you black belt. Now you begin to learn."

As far as I can tell, the dunce remained egotistical and enter the trail of bloodbath competition. As an older guy, he remained the same. Most people don't take this path. At shodan, the first degree people make a choice. They either take the belt and step aside, but certainly continue training ... or they take the belt and start working for Belt #2, the sky being the limit. Actually the number 9 is the limit.

Posted by: @dom

I never asked you but what belt are you?

Formally, and on paper, I am shodan (#1). I was advised by a shodan sensei who ran his own school (formally under Nish in the Hierarchy) to not go after more degrees because it's all politics. So I never applied. Then I went away to study Aikido. Years later I came back and was informally recognized as a #3, because I was drafted, for I did not apply, into Judge training. To get this you must first have a #3. At the age this happened (around 60), I could not have passed the physical test for sandan (#3), and I could not have ever passed the physical-ki test for #4.

In Aikido, I got a brownie, and I never trained past that point. I could not, and cannot, and always had trouble with the tumbling and falling. I can take it full on for three revs (throws or practice-tumbles) and then I get dizzy. Inner ear stuff. Balance becomes offset. So when I returned to serious training at age 60, I went back to Shotokan Karate. My sensei (a #3 then, #4 0r 5 now) went to Nish to check my implied credentials. Nish said, "Oh him. He was pretty good!"

When the sensei told me about my "reference," I can honestly say that short phrase means more than any paper or belt.

Posted by: @dom

Have you hard of the American movie actor Steven Segal?  Is this a good example of someone whose karate development has expanded his ego?

Segal is the real deal. He trained in Aikido, in Japan, not Karate. He is a 7th dan. This means he has walked and taught the core curriculum (#5), and he has expanded the art in his sphere of influence (#6)(i.e., promoted it and made it better known in the world, and then he went on to become the Chief Instructor in his own style. This may be considered his thesis, and everyone at Level 7 has a different style. Those styles are easily differentiated. I have not seen any evidence that Seagull has made #8.

In his mid-zone, he made movies. His early films display Aikido in action, but he soon moves into guns and stuff. They all do, the movie legends. They make a film or two about the real deal, and they become popular. Their movies soon degenerate into machine guns and hand grenades. Bruce Lee, and Jet Li, both avoided this by keeping their movies pretty much on an empty hand level, but Jet liked to draw swords a lot. All of these guys were acting, but they were not acting. They know/knew how to clean clocks.

Saeagull has a reputation for arrogance and kicking the shit out of his stunt men unecessarily. Level 7. 7=4. Remembers Mathers? Remember any other great philosophers or hit men who swaggered at their 7=4 "authority" level, but never showed a sign of level 8?

Posted by: @dom

Another point, Bruce Lee was some sort of fitness fanatic, he had abs of steel.   I'd say that fat people can become black belts in martial arts.

Bruce Lee won the "secret" Hong Kong Annual Tournament without Rules where the toughest fighters go to get maimed or to win. His skill has been properly demonstrated.

Posted by: @dom

Have you ever known any Ninjitsu practitioners?

Yes, but only one. She was just a student, but I got to hear about the training that I had already read about a few decades earlier.

Posted by: @pertinax

ut for essentially gutting Okinawan karate for consumption by the Japanese

This is true. Okinawa-te (Okinawa hand) was developed for bare-handed defense against Japanese samurai who had swords, spears, and they were armored. The disclosure outside Okinawa of the "secrets," especially to the Japanese, was considered an absolute heresy. Yeah, they went after him, but they never took him down.

Posted by: @pertinax

As for black belts being perfectly balanced, people say that but I'd dispute it.

I have known 5th dans who were mentally unstable. Nobody is perfectly balanced until they are personally balanced regardless of systems(Budo, A.'.A.'., Yogis, PhDs, etc). ALL grading systems are attempts to label the phases of the invisible spectrum of consciousness. They are ALL subject to error, corruption, and glamor.

I speak of the martial arts in their purest aspect, where the grades represent the path we know on the Tree of Life. The sturdiest and best well-rooted senseis will not play a favoritism game. If you want to see young high-ranking black belts, or you want to join the McDonalds of Karate, go to Tai Kwon Do. It works, and it's properly based, but it's offered in a franchise version where the "secrets" of stance and focus are overlooked.

Posted by: @pertinax

I've known 2nd and 3rd dan Aikido people with egos the size of a house.

The ego is not flushed out 'til #8, just like in the A.'.A.'..

This is the reason a TRUE #8, or an 8=3, can do things that are unreasonable, perhaps deemed impossible. I have faced two #9s, so I get to talk this way. Nobody knows anything about what these people can do to, and with, you ... until they've taken their best shot at one.

Posted by: @pertinax

So no, awarding a belt doesn't necessarily equate to a better person.

Your point is correct. You will find it applicable in all areas of life.

 


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dom
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04/11/2020 8:23 am  

@Shiva some great points there thankyou. I'll contemplate them and get back to you but what about fat people, they can still advance through the belts?  The reason i mention this is because my friend knew a guy who had a god reputation for Ninjitsu but he was not slim at all, if I'm not mistaken he was at a good level.

 

"Now you black belt, now you learn", what a quote that is.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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04/11/2020 10:28 am  
Posted by: @dom

fat people

You don't see many overweight people in the start-up classes. But you see a few at the higher levels. This is because, at a certain age, many people simply blossom into obesity, and it seems there's not much to do about it. Seagull is way overweight, but he continued to make (rather bad machine gun) movies, and continued to teach Aikido.

The trick is to get the art under your belt before a longer belt is needed.

There are exceptions. There is yang obesity and yin obesity. The yang type has powerful muscles underneath. The yin type is known as a couch potato, and they have no strength underneath, and they don't want it. Please pass the chocolates.

Now I've worked with both types. The yin potato was Frater Kuat, in The Tong, but he marched up at 6 AM every morning for Aikido practice, along with three (3) pregnant women. My second series of classes with 4 students. We had no mats, so we rolled out 2 carpets. In his later years, under the influence of strong drugs (since he was 8, I believe), Kuat told a friend of his (in my presence), "I was actually doing somersaults," can you believe that?"

Kuat was also, in his younger phase, a professional ballroom dancer and instructor. So there must have been some yang under his very long belt. 300 lbs.

So we can't rule out the fat people until we take a swing at them and see what they can do.

Nut-jobs used to show up from time to time at the San Diego dojo. They would approach sensei (#3 belt at the time)(in the up-front entry room area) and describe how good they were, or what fantastic things they could do. Peer would listen patiently with a suspicious twinkle in his eye, as if he knew they were lying. After a while he would say, "Okay, that's great. Please remove your shoes and step onto the [hardwood training] floor. Let's see what you've got."

He had that same look in his eye when I first walked in and told my story, but he let me sign up for training. After a week, he asked Nish about me, and then his entire demeanor and stance changed. I had been admitted to the club. I had not lied to him. I was one of Nish's earliest students.  I mostly self-trained at lunch hour, while he worked in the office. From time to time, he would come out and show me something, or ask me to do something.

After a few months, when he saw that I had regained my muscle tone and flexibility, he had me go through the katas (forms) of the different levels. All of them, one after another, until we had reached my stated level. When I finished he said, "Okay. Not bad.  You've got the external stuff down just fine. Now we will begin work on the inner." This is the equivalent of "Now you have a black belt. Now you will begin to learn." And he didn't need to beat me up. I had no superiority complex.

No shit and the 7 shinolas. He got me into realms I never knew existed (inside). Nish had listed, demonstrated, or pushed us around to make his key points. He openly offered every "secret," but his English was so bad that nobody knew what he really meant. Peer (#3 in San Diego) spoke fluent Israeli, English, and Japanese, so he was able to bring the "secrets" into the light, in plain English, but with an Israeli accent. He had been around. Military duty in occupied Lebanon. And he was a 6th dan in Iaido and Battodo, which he earned in Japan.

Those funny names essentially mean "Samurai Sword Quickdraw and Slice." High Noon in Japan ... with bamboo swords, oak swords, and live blades. He thought I should join that class too (it cost a bit extra), but I declined.

I was there to get myself re-shaped up, because the administrative job I had just been instantly thrust into was going to be another round of stress with physical chi required to avoid bad effects. They promoted me, and I walked out that day and drove over to the dogo saying, "I'm a black belt who is out of shape. I used to train under Nish."

He interrupted, saying, "I also train under Nish." The twinkle came into his eye, and he shifted slightly into the standoff stance. He did not believe me.

For the first week.

This is him, captured perfectly at the moment of focus, in Wash DC, in 2002, at the National Tournament. The guy on the right went down a millisend later. You can see his back leg and ankle have already started to buckle under him. Instant clock cleaning ...

image

Since he knocked the guy out in a no-contact tournament, he was disqualified and the knocked out guy was declared the winner. That's how slippery and silly no-contact things can get.

This was not lack of control. Peer knocked him out on purpose. "Who was he to step in with a punch and be wide open? Somebody had to teach him a lesson."

 


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05/11/2020 12:56 am  
Posted by: @shiva
Nut-jobs used to show up from time to time at the San Diego dojo. They would approach sensei (#3 belt at the time)(in the up-front entry room area) and describe how good they were, or what fantastic things they could do. Peer would listen patiently with a suspicious twinkle in his eye, as if he knew they were lying. After a while he would say, "Okay, that's great. Please remove your shoes and step onto the [hardwood training] floor. Let's see what you've got."

He had that same look in his eye when I first walked in and told my story, but he let me sign up for training. After a week, he asked Nish about me, and then his entire demeanor and stance changed. I had been admitted to the club. I had not lied to him. I was one of Nish's earliest students.  I mostly self-trained at lunch hour, while he worked in the office. From time to time, he would come out and show me something, or ask me to do something.

After a few months, when he saw that I had regained my muscle tone and flexibility, he had me go through the katas (forms) of the different levels. All of them, one after another, until we had reached my stated level. When I finished he said, "Okay. Not bad.  You've got the external stuff down just fine. Now we will begin work on the inner." This is the equivalent of "Now you have a black belt. Now you will begin to learn." And he didn't need to beat me up. I had no superiority complex.

 

This is a good point, is Karate a path like Thelema?  Apparently the Zen monks started the martial arts, we know where their preoccupations were but as we all know the amount of ignorami who get totally into karate is numerous.  In that respect the martial arts are akin to archery or rifle practice.....maybe.  

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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05/11/2020 2:16 am  
Posted by: @dom

is Karate a path like Thelema? 

The word is -do (Tao). It is a way. There is a Way of the Sword, of the Empty Hand, of The Bow, of The Sword, of Zen, of Flower-arranging (I kid you not), of Spirit Harmony (Aikido).

This is the point I am constantly trying to make. There is only one Way, one Path, but it is heaped upon by different cultures with different styles. The goal remains the same.

"The Ultimate aim of Karate is to perfect the character of the participants."
                                               - Gichin Funakoshi

Posted by: @dom

Apparently the Zen monks started the martial arts

Not quite. Bodhiharma, who became the first patriarch of Zen, climbed out of INDIA, alone, and he crossed the Himalayas on foot. Arriving in China, he found Buddhist monks who were weak and the victims of robbers. He said, "I will teach you strength." He did. At the Shaolin Monastery in Fuzhou [sic?], China.

Years later (centuries), Chinese Pirates taught the "China Hand" to Okinawan peasants. They called it "Okinawa Hand." Funakoshi left Okinawa and taught the Japanese "Empty Hand."

Traditionally, in the old days, one had to earn a black belt in something (ever Flower-Arranging) before applying to the Zen school. The Zen stuff is mixed in what all the other arts, but they (the monks) didn't invent the arts.

Posted by: @dom

ignorami who get totally into karate is numerous.  In that respect the martial arts are akin to archery or rifle practice.....maybe.  

The Ignorami are not interested in the Path or the Way. They are not even into first circuit control. They are interested in 2nd circuit dominance. No third circuit required.

 

 


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dom
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05/11/2020 8:04 am  
Posted by: @shiva

 

The Ignorami are not interested in the Path or the Way. They are not even into first circuit control. They are interested in 2nd circuit dominance. No third circuit required.

 

 

So in effect an ignoramus will be bad at karate because he is an ignoramus? 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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05/11/2020 11:21 am  

The ignoramus will not see the occult application and miss the point .

get off the couch start and start working on levitation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1I972Vr0sg


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05/11/2020 8:55 pm  
Posted by: @dom

So in effect an ignoramus will be bad at karate because he is an ignoramus?

I believe this is reasoning from the known to the unknown, which is either a sin or at least an error.

I guess you didn't read the book I posted. It was only 32 pages long, and filled with pictures, so the text is not so long. Both the pictures and the text reveal and display some people who were/are high-ranking and very good at knocking other people out. They also displayed 2nd circuit disorders of the dominant variety.

The word ignoramus is confusing things. None of these folks mentioned were or are stupid in any way. They get very good in their art (of knocking people out). But they are not interested in The Way, or the Do(nut), or the Tao. Interest in The Way leads to harmony with other people.

The "tough guys" are interested in being dominant. ALL of them, in my little booklet, had their physical or mental or egoic clock cleaned by someone else (usually Nishiyama, who didn't hold well with expanding egotism). But, in general, they usually won against the guys in the bars and the alleys.

Posted by: @tiger

The ignoramus will not see the occult application and miss the point .

If you think you are going to make the point in one simple sentence, you are correct.

 


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Pertinax
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05/11/2020 9:13 pm  
Posted by: @dom
Posted by: @shiva

 

The Ignorami are not interested in the Path or the Way. They are not even into first circuit control. They are interested in 2nd circuit dominance. No third circuit required.

 

 

So in effect an ignoramus will be bad at karate because he is an ignoramus? 

Not 'technically' bad at Karate perhaps, such a person could be a really good fighter, although a genuine idiot would probably lack the intelligence to get to a good technical level due to the large syllabus required to get to a halfway proficient level in any martial art. 

I'd say that, while an ignoramus could probably get a black belt with persistence, may win competitions in sparring or be good in a street fight against drunks, and in the right club might rise to a higher grade, they would probably not really 'get it' as far as the way is concerned, and irrespective of belt colour Karate would remain for them a means of dominating others and nothing more. 

My first teacher started off with Karate. In the 1960's in Plymouth, his teacher was an ex-British Army boxer who turned to Karate after leaving the army. He could handle himself. He moved on to tai chi, which he taught to his Karate black belt students, once they'd gotten to that level internally (i.e. they'd grown out of their competitiveness). In these instances the martial arts had become a path rather than a means to dominate and win. The ignoramus's stayed in the coloured belt grades and were not invited to the tai chi classes.

Martial arts start off with the raw material of a persons aggressive tendencies, and that energy is sublimated to a higher level for spiritual purposes. Even internal arts like Aikido need this, and learning how to recognize and utilise these tendencies is essential right from the start. In the burning ground of the dojo many compete at the lower levels for dominance, but relatively few go beyond that and turn their martial arts practice into a genuine path, and even in ostensibly internal arts this happens, as in my account of the Aikido 2nd dan who still at that stage felt the need to demonstrate his dominance over me, a mere brown belt

Much like other systems (AA etc), it's not perfect, and while efficient for the right person, the outward manifestations (belts, diplomas, grades) are subject to abuse.


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06/11/2020 7:39 am  
Posted by: @pertinax

they would probably not really 'get it' as far as the way is concerned

Precisely. They will not make it to godan (#5 BB), and if they did, it would not be legitimate in the higher sense, because The Way is the only way from there on ...   The are not in wu-wei all the time, but they well know what it is. The only "plateau" (a place of repose without need to do anything more, comes at #8, just as 8=3 is the same for Thelema.

Just think. Los is reposing in repose, nothin' else is on his mind.

Posted by: @pertinax

and that energy is sublimated to a higher level for spiritual purposes.

Right. The problemis that the Japanese don't talk about this stuff. A few of the VERY high level guys will. The best Nishiyama could do was this (a rare moment where he exposed just a glimpse of the goal) ...

We sat in meditation. Nish said, "Close your eyes. See all around you. You not be able to do this, but just try."

He must have been on a roll that day, because he followed it up with ...

"I write [wrote] book explain Karate. Next is psychological." [He sits in mediation and shakes his head] "Very difficult. Maybe some day."

In the last decade of his life, his classes mainly consisted of one thing. He would stand rock still in front of the class. No more kicking or jumping around, because this feet and ankles were swollen so bad he had difficulty walking. He faced a "dummy" (usually the highest ranking guy in the class that day or night). He had shifted from "the moving point" to "the fixed point," a change we see in Aikido as well. When anyone gets old, it is very rare to maintain flexibility in the legs and feet. One can no longer dance around easily. You root your hara ( lower tan-tien in Chinese - sacral plexus level (Yesod level - but "deeper" [in dimension-speak] than just the sacral plexus). More on this below. I will keep to the middle pillar.

So he would stand there and explain the tiniest details about stance, glance, perception, sensation and which small tiny muscle must initiate any movement (it is always far removed from the action). He would tell how to gather the Ki from the environment and focus it in the hara. And how to release it in the most effective manner. Then he would get around to nodding to the dummy to attack.

One evening (at age 76), he got frustrated with his dummy. The guy was being lax. He yelled, "Hit me as hard as you can!"  Then he lined everyone up and told them, "Hit me as hard as you can!" One after another. Come and see how this is done (to you). I was not there, but my San Diego sensei was. I asked, "Did anybody do that? He replied, "Of course not. Nobody is that stupid."

You might miss the point if I do not explain: The amount of force that anyone puts into action, and it goes astray (which it will), is the amount of damage or deflection that will be inflicted upon the attacker. I used to wonder, how does one use the opponents force against him? It made no sense. I now enjoy explaining, demonstrating, and watching student do just that (sometimes). Anyway, "Fixed Point." The Mountain. The Mountain may take a step or do a twist of the body, but essentially it's immovable.

You root that (your) Source of Ki in the body (the doodad in the abdomen) with The Sea of Ki (acupont name for the front. 1.5" below the navel, on the midline) with the core of The Earth, via the hara line. This is generally known as Stand and Deliver.

Posted by: @pertinax

relatively few go beyond that and turn their martial arts practice into a genuine path

The same may be said of the formal schools of Thelema. Everybody's got to go somewhere in their early years. Church. The Races. Guru yogi's Place. OTO. Masonry, Flower Arrangement (I was never really interested in that one), Tea Ceremony, Live Blade Quick Draw, Buddha, name your path. Many start but, you know, life is so demanding.

Posted by: @pertinax

Much like other systems (AA etc), it's not perfect, and while efficient for the right person, the outward manifestations (belts, diplomas, grades) are subject to abuse.

Right. I note you already attended the class I described one paragraph above this.

To keep things in order, I heard AC did 4 physical defenses or attacks (mostly attacks), that I can remember, so he wasn't opposed to self-defense or pounding someone else. But he barely mentions those things except as short (one or two paragraphs) stories.

 


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dom
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07/11/2020 12:10 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

I guess you didn't read the book I posted. It was only 32 pages long, and filled with pictures, so the text is not so long. Both the pictures and the text reveal and display some people who were/are high-ranking and very good at knocking other people out. They also displayed 2nd circuit disorders of the dominant variety.

 

Ok god documentation but I've seen it also lik eI said archery can be part of the Zen way but so what?  It's archery. 

 

Posted by: @shiva 

The word ignoramus is confusing things. None of these folks mentioned were or are stupid in any way. They get very good in their art (of knocking people out). But they are not interested in The Way, or the Do(nut), or the Tao. Interest in The Way leads to harmony with other people.

The "tough guys" are interested in being dominant. ALL of them, in my little booklet, had their physical or mental or egoic clock cleaned by someone else (usually Nishiyama, who didn't hold well with expanding egotism). But, in general, they usually won against the guys in the bars and the alleys.

So be it. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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dom
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09/11/2020 4:43 pm  

The first simple organisms here were only found in the rivers, seas and oceans.  The first circuit would've developed when fish-things began to viciously eat other fish-things.  If you were a naive hippy fish-thing pacifist then you became someone's dinner.  End.

If you got hostile then you could ward off the attack moreso.  Not much change there.  I'd say any self-defense technique works on this circuit not just karate.

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Shiva
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09/11/2020 8:40 pm  
Posted by: @dom

I'd say any self-defense technique works on this circuit not just karate.

I'd say that most self-defense techniques rarely work at all when one first starts to practice. Even the well-trained gung-ho-ers had a 50/50 success rate in their adventures in bar parking lots.

Karate will started to be effective after 6 months. At a year and a half, the brown belt will be good, but just good enough to possibly get in real trouble.

The MMA stuff is probably the most effective in the shortest time. Other arts, similar to Karate will fall into these "efficient" realms.

Aikido, Tai Chi and the softer arts are simply not effective for first circuit survival application. The beginner (usually before 5 years of practice) will probably die.

I am pleased to see you got your punch in toward the fucking, worthless hippy. The funny thing is, the hippies didn't die. Well, maybe one or two did. The rest of them stood face to face with the armed army. The were "Empty-handed," except for those holding flowers.

Your post has some un-approved logic, and seems to include speculative theories.


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dom
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09/11/2020 11:04 pm  

I use the term 'hippy' because we tend to associate what I said with that term.  However, I as a real hippy know that a lot of hippies did a lot of violent things particularly in Germany. 

 

Anyway I think it's time to move to circuit 2 but then again you already instigated that with your gotcha attempt. 

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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